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Sure, because any lawsuit would be thrown out because separate hours are in bona fide consideration of public policy.
However, one lawyer who was against separate hours in the municipal pool admitted in an interview that according to her stance, Lucille Roberts is also illegal.
I don’t know if their rabbonim are being mattir even not b’makom tzorech gadol, but if they are, those much greater than I or them have called it extreme ????.
Wolf, which question are you referring to?
?????? ??? ??? ?’ ?’ ?”? ??’ ?”?
??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?????, ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??????, ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????. ???? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?”? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????
I don’t see why an escalator would be better.
ZD, why do you repeat the same mistake? There is no legal distinction between private and government run facilities. Read the statute.
Separate facilities or hours for men and women is not considered discrimination because it is a reasonable policy because of privacy/modesty issues, as evidenced by the existence of a place such as Lucille Roberts.
OTOH, if it was called Shaindle Roberts, there would probably be lawsuits by the anti-Semites and self hating Jews.
Here is the law:
N.Y. Executive Law, Article 15
Human Rights Law
2. (a) It shall be an unlawful discriminatory practice for any person, being the owner, lessee, proprietor, manager, superintendent, agent or employee of any place of public accommodation, resort or amusement, because of the race, creed, color, national origin, sexual orientation, military status, sex, or disability or marital status of any person, directly or indirectly, to refuse, withhold from or deny to such person any of the accommodations, advantages, facilities or privileges thereof, including the extension of credit, or, directly or indirectly, to publish, circulate, issue, display, post or mail any written or printed communication, notice or advertisement, to the effect that any of the accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any such place shall be refused, withheld from or denied to any person on account of race, creed, color, national origin, sexual orientation, military status, sex, or disability or marital status, or that the patronage or custom thereat of any person of or purporting to be of any particular race, creed, color, national origin, sexual orientation, military status, sex or marital status, or having a disability is unwelcome, objectionable or not acceptable, desired or solicited.
(b) Nothing in this subdivision shall be construed to prevent the barring of any person, because of the sex of such person, from places of public accommodation, resort or amusement if the division grants an exemption based on bona fide considerations of public policy; nor shall this subdivision apply to the rental of rooms in a housing accommodation which restricts such rental to individuals of one sex.
???? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?????, ??? ?? ????? ????? ????????, ??? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ???????? ?????? ????, ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??????
It is legal, and doesn’t fall under the non-discrimination statute.
See what the (???? ???? (???? ????? says about trains, and about someone who is mattir it (and his reason):
ZD, read the statute (296-2). You’re wrong.
The Y wouldn’t be able to keep them out either.
Private facilities are not exempt from the public accommodation law. Read the statute.
NCB, he’s being more machmir than I. Since all poskim AFAIK asser taking trains and buses, according to RoB, elevators and escalators would likewise be universally accepted as assur under all circumstances.
I, on the other hand, while bringing opinions such as the Chelkas Yaakov and Rav Vosner, acknowledge that some poskim are more lenient with Shabbos elevators and allow it (AFAIK, only b’makom tzorech, with different poskim holding of varying degrees of tzorech necessary to permit).
The municipality can also make reasonable accommodation for separate swimming.
Legally, the Y is no better in this regard than the city pools.
CA: Some goyim like to swim in the summer in the middle of the day
And some probably like to swim at 3am.
ZD: That is the price we pay for living in a free society, we have to pay for stuff we dont need and dont want.
You take the exact opposite attitude regarding Twizzlers and non-gebrokts.
CA, that is an atrocious analogy.
Its 4 hours a week, not six
BTW I checked at the Kingsbay Y, they only have 2 hours a week for womens only and 2 hours a week for men only
Yet, you begrudge them even that.
You are giving budgeting tips to families you know nothing about?
How do you know how important the mountains areto them? How do you know who drinks what brand of coffee?
There’s no reason the municipal pool can’t be available to them. Maybe the men who want access to the pool those six hours a week can build their own pool and cut out their cable subscriptions.
The scholarships offered are modest
So it’s still expensive.
Cats disagree with you.
You call that being ??????
L’chaim!
How can an Orthoprax who doesn’t believe in God possibly be a ???? ???????
Agreed. He’s a ????, though, so still worse.
He is mattir elevators as well, no? I didn’t day nobody is mattir, I am pointing out that I think those who asser (or at least some) will likely asser escalators as well.
Only because it is indirect, unintended, and is not certain to occur immediately.
With most elevators and escalators, it will occur right away.
Littleeema, that is fascinating. Could you ask him why he preferred the escalator?
It cannot be “midoiraisa” as we do not have an ohel by keilim.
Did you see the Biur Halachah?
Tis does not mean that all Poskim agreed to that or that there is no “tsad hetter”.
Is that your definition of a chumra – there was once historically a shittah l’hakel, so now even though the accepted psak is that it’s assur, it’s called a chumra?
Halacha-wise, it depends how it was made, but could remove any possible chashashos of bishul.
Taste-wise, I don’t know, but I would sooner make brewed coffee concentrate once I was patcka-ing.
Was he claiming that white teeth on college campus were the only reason, thereby ignoring women and chareidim, or was that merely an example (as was Shabbos conducted surveys) of where their analysis has gone wrong?
Theprof1, does he believe in Hashem and Torah min hashomayim and s’char v’onesh?
Sam, we are makpid l’chatchilah.
ROB, it is the p’sak of the Biur Halachah (the one I and Avi quoted) to asser.
He even has a tzad that according to some rishonim it could be d’Oraisa.
He concludes: ??? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??”? ??? ????”? ??? ??? ????? ?”? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???”? ??”? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???
Avi, the point of ????? ????? is that it attracts attention, so whether that issue to the noise or a different factor (being outdoors in public view) shouldn’t make a difference.
And now you’re back.
Uvda D’chol is a legitimate thing, what I am discussing is what are the limits.
Thank you for clarifying. We are discussing forms of uvda d’chol which are mentioned by the gedolei haposkim.
So you overrule them?? If you think the Chazon Ish et al didn’t know what they were and were not allowed to do, you’re an arrogant mechutzef.
Charlie and ZD, the poskim disagree with you and think allowing these things is the slippery slope.
Acharonim don’t count?
Umbrella:
??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?????
– ???? ??? ??”? ?”?
???? ?”? ????? ??????”? ??? ???????? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???????? ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???
– ???”? ??”? ??”? ???
Bicycle:
???? ??? ?????? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????, ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??????
– ??”? ??? ????? ?’ ?”? ???? ?
??? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ?????
– ??”? ??? ?????? ?’ ?’ ??’ ?”?
What do you mean, “explicit”?
The fact that Shabbos elevators are not assur must imply that those poskim were OK with that extra energy usage for whatever reason.
Some Shabbos elevators are specially designed to use the same amount of electricity no matter the weight inside.
I’ve never understood how walking through the motion sensor on the door is mutar on those.
I would guess that the doors are programmed to stay open for a set amount of time, and that one would need to enter within that time period.
DY: Do any of your sources say that Shabbos elevators are mutar, but escalators are not? I’m curious, because it does seem like escalators would be less problematic.
No, they aren’t specifically addressing escalators, probably because of blubluh’s point, but I don’t see why those who asser elevators would be mattir escalators. To quote the Chelkas Yaakov, ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??, ???? ????? ??? ?????, ?????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ?????, ??? ?????, ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? (?? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????, ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??????) ???? ?? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????
Although his words were said to compare an elevator to a train, the same could be said for an escalator.
BTW, rabbiofberlin, earlier in the teshuvah, he specifically says that he is also addressing automatic elevators:
??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????, ???
??????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ???????, ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???
Daas Yochid: The “Chelkas Yaakov” is not talking about automatic elevators.
According to his reasoning, it would make no difference.
I do take umbrage at your snide remark. I have always been respectful of your views. Give me the same courtesy.
Nothing to take umbrage at. You called my statement logic defying (and I guess thought that was courteous and respectful of my view?) when it is the opinion of some of the gedolei haposkim, which obviously means you were unaware of them.
Here ???? ???? says ????. His reasoning has nothing to do with electricity.
Here it is mashma that R’ Vosner hold there’s an issue aside from melacha:
Daas Yochid: Your statement defies logic.
No, it’s just outside your realm of knowledge.
DY and Joseph: As of now, escalators (in the US, at least) do not change how much energy they use regardless of who or what is on it.
How would they not? Unless specifically constructed for Shabbos, it would seem to be a waste of energy to carry less weight at the same speed using the same amount.
DY: I don’t see how it’s Uvdin D’chol. It’s not related to any Asei at all, really. Escalators are not bicycles.
It seems not everyone holds it needs to be. There are definitely poskim who consider elevators to always (no matter how they’re constructed) be zilzul Shabbos – Rav Vosner seems to say it, the Tzitz Eliezer I linked seems to be using reasoning which would apply to any case where a human is being transported by non-human power, and there are probably others.
I agree with Joseph. There’s a debate about the permissibility of specially constructed Shabbos elevators, but escalators are likely in the category of regular elevators, which the accepted psak is not to use (except perhaps b’sha’as had’chak).
Sam, I thought his second reason (based on Chasam Sofer was relevant):
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14500&st=&pgnum=158
See also: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/elevator_psak.jpg, particularly Rav Vosners’s.
It’s no better than an elevator, which is frowned upon by many poskim. I believe there’s a Tzitz Eliezer on it.
ROB, I meant the overall issur muktzeh itself, and the issur of using an umbrella (which even if ohel would be a d’rabbanon, not an av melacha or toldah), which according to the Ch”I is not ohel, but zilzul Shabbos.
Sam, how could one “quietly” allow an activity which is done outside?
Also ??? ?????? quotes ???? ???? about someone who was ????:
???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??: ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?’ ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????, ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??????? ?????? ????
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14506&st=&pgnum=155
MA, the question seemed to me to be about a regular bike, which is assur to ride even though it’s not one of the 39 melachos.
Perhaps the types of bikes you saw weren’t included in the minhag, or perhaps they were wrong to allow it.
Either way, riding an ordinary bicycle, as per the OP’s question, was definitely accepted as assur.
I know that. The discussion is about bicycles, which he says are assur.
Umbrella: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14336&st=&pgnum=158&hilite=
Which of the 39 is muktzeh? One of the reasons is related to ?????, but it is not actually ????? or any of the other 38.
ZD, ?? ????? quotes the ?? ??? ?? but concludes ????.
My link above is from ?’ ?? ???? ??? ????.
Sefardim also shouldn’t ride bikes on Shabbos, AFAIK.
