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Oomis, you wrote, “The poshuteh Yid might be sitting right next to the Rosh Yeshivah in Olam Haba, for reasons known only to Hashem.”
Why wouldn’t you extend that to non frum people and even non ehrliche people? Is it possible for us to know what another’s nisyonos are?
We make judgments in this world, both for the good and for the bad. Often, we need to, and I’ve pointed to some examples of why we sometimes need to. Still, the Gemara tells us that despite trying to make judgments to the best of our ablities, only Hashem knows the full truth, and in the next world, we will see some things (maybe everything) at least somewhat differently – olam hafuch raisi.
I am merely questioning why you are drawing the line at frum and ehrlich, and assuming that at that point we do know the full story. Maybe for reasons known only to Hashem, the non frum, non ehrliche person will sit next to the frum ehrliche one.
OK, and I don’t want to make it a competition between those who excel at zikui harabim and those who excel at personal avodas Hashem. They’re both important. Not to detract from R’ Goldstein in any way (truthfully, I’m not very familiar with him or his work, although I did see an article), but not everyone is in a position to do what he did.
I once heard a kashya b’shem R’ Moshe Feinstein zt’l.
We say in birchas K”S, “lishmoa, lilmod, ul’lamed”. Lishmoa and lilmod applies to all, but how can we say l’lamed? Not everyone is a rebbe!
He answered that every one is in a position to teach by example. If I daven properly, learn b’hasmadah, act with respect towards others, am honestcin business, etc., people see this and are inspired to emulate it.
At the same time we can admire and seek to emulate those who are able to accomplish for klal Yisroel on a large scale and in a visible manner, I don’t think we can overlook or underestimate what a person can accomplish not only for himself, but for the klal, just by living his personal life the way Hashem wants him to.
Sam, that may or may not be the case, but it doesn’t excuse pritzus.
LF, based on my observation, these ads are generated according to content, as you’ll find with some email providers.
The programmed algorithms generated “Jewish” (or Israel) themed ads based on the content in the CR.
Yichusdik,
In the first paragraph of that post, you call it a chutzpah to make judgments.
In the second paragraph, you make a judgment.
Kashya seifa areisha.
Chremslach are a version of latkes.
Yekke2, interesting that you quote that Gemara. I see two relevant points:
1) We make judgments on who are “elyonim” and who are “tachtonim”.
2) Those judgments often are not reflected in the Olam Haemes.
or maybe the chutzpah of even discussing the superiority of our practice of Judaism when half of what it means to be a Jew is being willfully ignored sticks in my craw.
For the most part, the discussion has been very general in terms of what constitutes proper avodas Hashem. If it bothers you that more examples of communal responsibility weren’t given, that’s fair to bring up, but to call the discussion as a whole a “chutzpah” is unfair, insulting, incorrect, and frankly, disclaimer notwithstanding, a bit impolite.
Oomis, I believe that the second we view ourselves as superior to another FRUM and ehrliche yid, we already demonstrate that we are not.
According to your own approach, we shouldn’t view ourselves as superior to a non frum or non ehrliche Yid either.
Yichusdik, maybe, instead of substituting a bunch of words, you should start a new thread about the topic you wish to discuss, which is not the same one being discussed here.
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http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37957&st=&pgnum=240&hilite=
Gefilte fish might actually be one of the few authentically Jewish foods, if what I’ve heard is correct, that its original purpose was to avoid issues of borer.
That, and cholent/hamin (Torah sheba’al peh on Lo S’vaaru Aish), and matzah (and I suppose, by extension, knaidlach).
Squeak, If someone is fortunate to start life on a relatively higher level than most (e.g. being born to a frum family), is that anything to take credit for?
No, but again, if we are defining superiority as taking credit, I don’t think someone who has been growing for a long lifetime should be taking credit.
And if someone has worked on personal growth for 70 years, does that make him superior to the 25 year old who is on the same path but has not had as much time? I think not.
This part, I disagree with (the rest might be semantics). The younger person may be on the same path, but he hasn’t gotten there yet, though he may be faultless for that.
In other words, I think you are defining superior in a third way, which avoids my “mah nafshach”, as worthy of credit.
Under that definition, I agree that being born into a
“superior” family doesn’t deserve credit (although according to my definition he might be superior), but someone who has maintained a path of growth for a longer period of time does deserve more credit, all else being equal, than one who has done so for less time, even if it is only due to age.
I didn’t see any such ad, on any screen. Maybe it’s your browser.
Squeak, you make a good point about the importance of growth, but still, mah nafshach. If superiority means being on a higher level, even when two people are growing, or ch”v the opposite, one could still be superior to the other.
And if the word superior is being (mis)used to refer to gaavah, it is still not acceptable for someone who is growing to look condescendingly at someone who is not growing.
FiF, so the newest chumrah will be to break a pair of glasses under the chupah.
You hold like Beis Shammai?
And you didn’t lose any? Impressive.
So I hear that the newest chimrah is to eat korech twice.
One for zeicher, and one for zecher.
I’m not really in the mood for a deep hashkafic discussion right now, but I think you’re on shaky ground.
Maybe there are different ways to define “what Hashem intended”.
Nah, it’s quaint. We get a kick out of it.
A set of kugelach.
We had two sedarim, which is, you know, also the way Hashem intended.
Not having experience in the matter, I wouldn’t presume to know the best way to deal with such a horrible situation.
But, I would think that there is a very real danger of the situation going from bad to worse. Sam, you wrote, “If there is any concern that more than just talking may occur, that’s when you need to step in.”
I just don’t see how there wouldn’t be such a concern.
For as long as we know, we’ve been saying a brachah on it. To the best of my knowledge, that’s a mesorah.
It is not like the story of the rebbe who would cut his nails after going to the mikvah. One chassid begged the rebbe to tell him the sod.
The rebbe told the chassid that he will only reveal it to him after fasting for forty days.
After fasting for forty days, the chassid asked the rebbe for the sod. Answered the rebbe, “because then my nails are soft”.
But we should assume that we wouldn’t have anything but a true mesorah on marror with a brachah.
Sam2, Is she doing anything more wrong than just talking? If it’s just talking and a bit of an emotional connection,
From the OP: Not just talking to him but they r obsessed with each other!
It goes back to 17th-century Lithuania/Russia (maybe a century or two earlier).
It goes back as far as we (collectively) remember.
And R’ Schachter doesn’t say that the issue is a meta-Halachic concern.
I suppose that depends on how to define “meta-halachic”, but my point is that it is a matter which requires judgment which is beyond the typical debate you’ll find in a beis medrash. I agree that the judgment of morei hora’ah is part of the actual halachic process, it’s just hard to qualify precisely, as it is to determine which morei hora’ah are qualified to make such judgments.
Jfem02, lol, I actually did, and decided to turn it on its head by answering the title instead of the OP. It worked. I was waiting for someone to notice. (Yekke2 did answer the OP.)
Which ad? Where?
So don’t you think you would have a larger readership here?
I think when most people use the word “superior”, they mean “better”. It doesn’t normally mean “haughty”, and it doesn’t normally mean “closer to Hashem”.
If Reynold’s aluminum foil is superior to the store brand, it is not haughty about it, and is no closer to Hashem because of it.
In response to your second point, those are not horseradish, on which we have a mesorah, so we work backwards, as the Gemara did with the identification of Pri Eitz Hadar as an esrog.
Which brings us back to your first point; when there’s a legitimate mesorah on a mehalach in Yiddishkeit, no amount of debating it will make it wrong, and when there us a mesorah to reject an approach, no amount of debating will make it right.
There’s another important point as well; not everything is subject to logical debate. If I observe that a particular approach simply doesn’t work, or is not grounded in sincerity, it may not be provable on paper, but is no less true.
Let me take the women wearing tefillin issue, on which we agree, as an example. I think I’ve demonstrated that according to classic halachic sources and approach, it is assur.
But Rabbi Schachter took it a step further, and said that it is unacceptable for “meta-halachic” reasons. So the logical, halachic debate doesn’t really need to begin. And, at least according to my reading of Rabbi Twerski’s piece, we also take into account the motivation of those involved in the innovation (even while judging favorably the motivations of the SAR students).
Well, I still didn’t finish mine from last year, so there. 🙂
It could be the correct side of the debate, but in terms of having a fair discussion it’s not playing by the rules.
When it comes to keeping the Torah, it is more important to be right than to win a debate.
People turn mainstream accepted practice on its heels all the time when they think they can prove that the practice came from a mistake or an improper reading of the Gemara or something like that.
I’d love to know which practices you refer to, but when it comes to things like horseradish and oats, which seem to have a clear mesorah, it’s very disturbing.
My understanding is that they did not leave Mitzrayim until the next morning. SO how did they NOT have enough time to make bread? I think we eat matzah because Hashem Said to eat matzah.
The Torah says they didn’t have enough time.
Sam, maybe it’s not what you meant, but this is what you said: PBA: Disagree. I think that, until such time as you can clearly disprove the other opinion, the opinion which is dismissive of others is in the wrong.
Sam, he made the point that one’s inability to “back it up” doesn’t automatically make him wrong.
I did not mean to agree to any possible implied insult.
CR10, please define the word “superior” as you are using it in this discussion.
But part of what makes him “superior” in the first place is what makes him worthy to emulate.
True, we need a starting point from which to establish what we consider superior and worthy of emulating, so that it shouldn’t be completely circular. That starting point is our Torah hashkafos as we have learned from our parents and rebbeim, i.e. our mesorah.
He is not worthy of emulation because he is superior
I disagree. Once we establish who is superior, there is always more to learn.
Great point, squeak.
What I was going to respond to Sam was that once we establish the hypocrisy of being intolerant of any intolerance, we can debate when intolerance is acceptable and when it is not.
But the one who claims intolerance of intolerance has admitted that intolerance has its place, and the holder of a position of tolerance in a given debate is not necessarily the muchzak.
CR10, We are all at different levels. You are not better than me and I am not better than you.
Those two sentences contradict each other, so no, not much clearer.
Sam2, “Superior” is a dumb word in this discussion. It’s pointless.
No, it’s not. I make judgments all the time (and you probably do as well) to decide who to emulate, and in what way.
If I consider someone an adam chashuv (“superior”), I will take his actions much more seriously as worthy of copying, and his thoughts and hashkafos as worthy of accepting and learning from, than someone who is not as chashuv (“inferior”).
OURtorah, I know you mean well, and I can appreciate that you simply want everyone to just get along, but consider the possibility thst you are being just a bit presumptuous in assuming that you are the only one participating in this discussion who has a multilateral perspective of the issues.
see what I did there?
Lol, you did a nice job of demonstrating the hypocrisy of being intolerant of the shittah of intolerance.
DaMoshe, why do you insist on personalizing this? Maybe my rav holds it’s muttar either way, maybe he holds it’s assur either way, maybe I’m the rav, maybe my rav doesn’t follow R’ Blumenkrantz’ book, maybe my rav is R’ Blumenkrantz’ son, maybe I’m Sefardi, or maybe I don’t get heartburn.
I was simply commenting on what it seems that R’ Blumenkrantz meant.
OK, so I’m waiting for you to restate your OP as follows:
“Although Judaism certainly believes that one who keeps the Torah and mitzvos is superior to one who doesn’t, we should nevertheless not speak derogatorily about a sinner, nor look down at him, because having never been in his place, we can’t judge him.”
Not that I would be in total agreement with such a statement, but at least it recognizes that it is better to keep the Torah than not to.
Popa, now I understand why the OP mentioned kiddush clubbers.
You could put it on top of a piece of matzah because min b’mino eino chotzetz.
Why?
Besides, I could make the same point by listing off Jewish reshaim.
only if necessary as an antacid
To me, it’s not necessary as an antacid if there’s another effective antacid available.
I think the point is that he (she?) is claiming that squeak is claiming to be intolerant on Hashem’s behalf when, in actuality, Hashem isn’t against the same things that squeak is.
I don’t think she argued the substance of the issues.
I think she’s singing kumbaya.