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You haven’t mentioned which ones you are sick of, so at the risk of recommending one which you’ve had, I’ll suggest Newman’s own blend.
AZ,
Far Vos:
“At least according to NASI, it seems pretty clear that 22+ is “older”. That is their definition”
Incorrect (you’ll probably say… ” “ay” they started the program for girls 22+….” that is simply a statement of total lack of undestanding of the situation, the project in general, and this program in particular.
DY feel free to explain.
You could do a more accurate job than I; you contemplated and consulted on this and came up with the ideas, I’m just figuring it out based on the program. But I’ll try, and you’ll please correct me when necessary.
Here goes: 22 is not the age at which a girl is “older” in terms of marriageability, they’re trying to get them married before they become “older”; an ounce of prevention…
“NASI’s idea will work only if EVERY person marries someone born in the exact same year.”
Incorrect
DY feel free to explain
It will work to whatever extent the age gap is closed. My example was an extreme (halevai it should work that well) to illustrate the point.
far vos,
“Actually, all that is needed is for the AVERAGE age gap to be about zero. So one chosson could be 5 years older than his kalla, while another kalla could be 5 years older than her chosson.”
Yes, but this holds true with or without the NASI project.
The NASI project is designed to bring the overall average age gap closer to zero. This is not happening without NASI, currently.
“it might fix the problem -say- 85%” (passfan)
How do you get that percentage?
It was obviously an example and illustration, not a real number (although it’s a real possibility, if the age gap can be closed). You did the same thing with your example of 10% annual population increase.
It was never meant to be an actual Hatarah. I would think that is decently clear.
It’s actually quite clear that it is a real hatarah.
Sam2, Your first point has some validity, (I’ll get to that soon), but the last two are based on ignorance of basic Shulchan Aruch.
The halachos of hataras nedarim are in Y.D. 228. In siman 1, he says that if there are three people, they need not be “mumchim”, they can be “hedyotos”. Definition (Taz and Shach): needs to be capable of understanding, but doesn’t need to already know.
In siman 3, he allows relatives.
In siman 14, he does say that the neder needs to be specified. The reasons, however (see Taz) are based on the possibility that had he specified, the dayanim may not have been matir. We specify, though, that such nedarim are not included.
There are also a number of shittos which argue on the S.A. who says that hatarah without being m’faret doesn’t work b’dieved; they hold it does.
Our hataras nedarim is valid.
Passfan,
Well said, I’ll just add one point. Statistically, there are 105 males born for every 100 females. If this holds true in the frum world as well, the gap does not have to be closed to zero, theres some leeway. In fact, closing it to zero would actually cause an imbalance the other way, in favor of the girls.
far vos,NASI might achieve the goal of getting more CURRENT older singles to get married. However, as I keep saying, this will adversely affect the FUTURE amount of older singles.
I’ll try one more time.
If NASI is successful, the definition of “older singles” will change, as will the percentage of girls overall who have a corresponding boy.
In a “perfect” scenario (mathematically), every girl will have a potential husband.
Say there are 1000 girls born in a given year, and 1000 boys, and nobody marries someone born in a different year. There are 1000 potential shidduchim, with nobody left out. If the next year there are 1030 of each, and they still only marry someone from that year, we again have accounted for everyone, and so on and so forth.
If the age of all of these Yidden is 23, and you still consider a 21 or 22 year old girl as “older”, then, indeed, you could claim that there are more older singles than ever, despite the fact that the shidduch crises has been solved!
Those 8 or 10% of girls are still going to be up against the “younger population” for dates.
Not nearly as much if NASI is successful. (I didn’t literally mean all will actually get married, I was referring to the goal.)
miritchka,
It’s not the shadchanim demanding; it’s a third party (NASI) encouraging and facilitating the parents to offer the $5,000. The whole thing is optional, no one has to sign up, and shadchanim are free (and undoubtedly mant will contiue) to redt shidduchim for the regular fee.
Sam2, We even admit to that in the Nusach itself.
How so?
??? ???? ???”? ??? ?”?: …???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????. ??? ??? ??????? ?”? ???? ???? ?????
pushtayid,
Please do not accuse me of saying… beating children for not raising their hand is correct.
I never meant such an accusation, c”v. Please forgive me for not being more clear. My point was that despite the fact that an underlying ideology may be correct, I don’t think the proper context to acknowledge that is a case of its misapplication.
apushatayid, Yes, assurances that they wont be stiffed might encourage shadchanim to work on such shidduchim, but that is not what NASI is saying, or how they are promoting this game changing plan.
I think it’s a matter of perspective. The main thrust here is to motivate shadchanim to work with older girls by having the girls or their parents offer higher shadchanus, and the escrow feature is a measure to ensure that there’s no manipulation and false promises by desperate people.
Why do you say that it’s forbidden to have a Jewish state in Galus?
That was the opinion of the Satmar Rebbe Zt”l (that we can’t establish a government in E.Y. without Moshiach), and arguably the opinion of the vast majority of gedolim before the war (the approach, however, of R’ Reuven Grozovsky, Zt”l and others, after the establishment of a state, was more pragmatic and less idealistic than that of the Rebbe Zt”l.
However, to say that the group which presently calls itself “Neturei Karta”, “has a point”, would almost be like saying that a teacher who beat a student severely “had a point” because the student did indeed speak in class without first raising his hand.
far vos,
It’s about 3% a year, the 10% number out there is cumulative, accounting for the 3 or 4 year typical age gap between husband and wife. If it were 10% a year, we’d really be in “g’hokta tzuris”.
There won’t be any more girls getting married. They will just be DIFFERENT girls getting married. These different girls (i.e. older) will be taking the place of the younger ones.
True, but you’re still missing the point. The current system has the older boys “borrowing” from the younger girls. It’s like a Ponzi scheme*; the same number of girls get married either way, but with the current system, some girls nebach get left out at the expense of the younger, ever increasing population. With the proposed system, all of the girls get married, albeit a few years later. Those few tears are, in effect, being distributed to the girls who wouldn’t otherwise get married.
*No, I don’t mean it’s a fraud; it’s not. I mean to compare the math; in theory, a Ponzi sheme could go on forever, with everyone getting their money, as long as the supply of investors keeps growing at a certain pace (which it doesn’t, the reason why Ponzi schemes eventually fall apart).
miritchka, Yes its a fortune, but the majority of the complaints are because of the price, not because of the amount.
Amount of what?
My point was to question why artchill said it’s worse now that the price (amount?) was lowered.
putting a price on their head is negative.
There’s no “price on their heads”. There’s compensation for helping them. It’s exactly the opposite of how some people are mistakenly conceiving it!
Imagine a king whose precious only daughter was ill. He sends messengers throughout the land announcing that whoever can find a cure will be paid five thousand gold rubles. Has he degraded her? No! Just the opposite! He’s showing just how valuable she is by offering such a high sum.
And can we please not be Medayik Halachos from the Lashon of a “Hataras Nedarim” that has no Halachic validity whatsoever?
You don’t believe in hatoras nedarim? I’m failing to understand why you think there’s no validity to the standard nusach. Maybe you’re confusing it with Kol Nidrei (which, although one can’t say that it no validity, is indeed controversial).
One can avoid the issue of nedarim when accepting a chumrah by explicitly stipulating that it’s bli neder (also found in the standard nusach).
I would also go with Wilhelm’s.
Bezalel,
When we know something with certainty, it’s called ??? ???? – Anan Sahadi – “we testify”. and can have the halachic status of eidus.
Ofcourse, this is most definitely an issue of nedarim (as the situation was described). Don’t do anything without consulting your rov.
Raphael Kaufman, Das Yachid, my suggestion that the boys and girls be paid directly was offered semi facetiously. The point was that throwing money a shadchanim was both unnecessary and was missing the real issue.
Of course it was, and my rebuttal was to clarify that it is “necessary” (or at least should help – certainly not enough is being done without the extra incentive). And age gap *is* the real issue.
apushatayid, sounds like this is an initiative to ensure shadchanim get paid, not to facilitate shidduchim
The former would support, not be exclusive of, the latter.
far vos,
You don’t seem to get the age gap equation. To simplify, let’s assume there are equal numbers of 22-23 year old boys as there are 22-23 year old girls.
If the 22-23 year old boys only married the 22-23 year old girls, there would be no gender discrepancy; there would be an equal number of older girls as boys. Say, for example, that 98% of all boys get married under the current system but only 92% of the girls do (made up numbers just for illustrative purposes). Under the revamped system, the rate would be 98% for the girls as well. The increased numbers of older girls you describe would be true for 21 year old girls, but once they hit the same age as the boys are when they get married (22-23) they would no longer be older singles, because they would get married.
Oomis, No. In fact, there are aspects of the program which I disagree with.
far vos, … I don’t think your idea will help. Assuming that your incentives did lead to more shidduchim for “older” singles (which is not a certainty), all that this will accomplish is less shidduchim for “younger” singles. This will lead to an even bigger increase in older singles in the future.
Yes, but there will be a boy for all of them!
artchill,
Sick and getting sicker!!
First, the complaint was that the dollar amounts were too high. Now the complaint is that it was lowered, which is worse??!! I don’t get it!
I guess if someone wants to be cynical and negative, logic won’t stand in the way.
bpt,
but for our young women to be spoken of like this, its deplorable.
Nobody from NASI spoke negatively about our young women, unless I missed such a post. If so, please point it out to me.
apushatayid, “If a young woman has a birthday within 12 months of joining”
Is it possible not to?
If it’s an leap year.
Seriously, I’m sure he meant a birthday putting her in the next bracket (if you knew that and were joking, please forgive me).
Will they be asking their usual “fee” and view the NASI money as a bonus?
NASI said, “Please note: In the event of a completed shidduch, the boys side is obligated al pi halacha to pay their own standard shadchanus regardless of whether a young women is on the list or not. “
It is apparent that the girls side does not have to pay any more shadchanus; the money you call “NASI money” is actually the money of the girl or her parents, held in escrow by NASI as the shadchanus money.
AZ,
Was this point approved by the Roshei Hayeshiva? It seems overkill to me; you could simply take the second one off the list as soon as the first gets engaged. There’s really nothing preventing the parents from asking for their money back as soon as a shidduch seems serious (unless there’s a condition which I haven’t noticed publicized), so you’re kind of going with the honor system anyhow. You’ve publicly acknowledged the difficulty some might have coming up with such large sums and, to your great credit, reduced the amounts based on the feedback. This would be another way of making the program more attainable for some.
Raphael Kaufman, It would make more sense to pay the bonuses directly to the bachurim to marry older girls
Read the posts in this and other threads on this topic; you’ll find much outrage about associating money with shidduchim. That outrage would be nothing compared to the outrage which would be felt and expressed if the boys were supposed to be the ones getting the money!
or to the girls themselves if they refrain from entering the shidduch “market” until they’re 24.
1) No girl in her right mind would do that.
2) It’s unenforceable; how does any girl who is not married by 24 prove that she wasn’t on the “market”?
3) Who would pay them?
As far as NASI looking like a scam, I admire your courage for expressing that opinion in a public forum. You risk looking very foolish if they release the finished plan and it’s transparent, and overseen by well known and trusted individuals.
Any family with more than two young women to enroll in the program needs to only put in the dollar amount to cover two of them and they can enroll all the sisters.
Why is it not sufficient to keep one sum in escrow (the higher amount if the sisters are in different brackets)?
Jothar,
Rav Eliashiv retracted, no problem, old issue.
Do you have a source? I never heard (from a reliable source) about a retraction.
oomis, ain’t nuthin’ bettah than cheesecake!
We’ll agree to agree on that one! 🙂
Mazel Yov, C(Shapiro).
passfan, What alerted you and how did you become aware of this age-gap cause over a decade ago?
A conversation with a brilliant talmid chacham. Until then, I had heard all (or at least most) of the theories bandied about in coffee rooms (real and virtual) everywhere; girls being too picky, boys asking too much money, “it’s much easier to be a good girl than a good boy”, etc. But I had one big “kasha” on the whole thing; why are there more girls around than boys – every time a boy manages to overcome these difficulties and gets married, he takes a girl with him! When he explained the age-gap/increasing population formula to me, a light went on in my head.
Was it a new chiddush at the time (to anyone – not you)
Not to him! 🙂
was anything done or was it just talk then?
Just talk, then. IIRC, NASI was a few years later.
Ofcourse, theyre not grabbing.
Apparently, there were more people “grabbing” from NASI (their first initiative) than there was money available!
As to this initiative, I don’t know what the success level will be, but it’s certainly too early to claim that “they’re not grabbing” when the program hasn’t even started yet!
jl, the crisis is not just for the older girls, then maybe just maybe NASI would make some sense but the regular 19 20 yr olds still cant get a yes from the boys
Because there are more of them than 23-24 tear old boys. The cause, age gap coupled with an increasing population. The solution NASI proposes, to close the age gap, would do wonders to affect that girls could get a yes. You were correct when you said, “i think i misunderstood this whole thing!!!”
Again, no one has explained to me what has changed. the target yeshiva boy in Litvish circles was always 23 and girls 19.20.
I’m really not sure when this problem began; it seems to me that there was a gender imbalance twenty years ago, and probably earlier; I became aware of the fact that it is an effect of age gap/population increase over a decade ago (I don’t know how long before that others understood the issue). If this gender disparity was not always a factor (which I don’t know for a fact is true), the could could be attributed to increased rate of population growth.
AZ, do you know when this problem began?
EVEN IF YOU ARE RIGHT in everything you state, there is something fundamentally wrong with the project as it stands now.
I agree; I don’t think it was presented well. But it’s up to thinking people, such as yourself, to see past that and analyze it for what it is, a potentially valuable project which could ease the tza’ar of some of our precious bnos Yisroel.
how many girls signed up, as desperate as they are!!!!?
You would have to ask NASI that, I have no idea.
Ofcourse, Shadchanim will make 3 Shidduchim with young girls in the time it takes to make one with an older girl, and make more money!!!
You’ve just explained exactly why the shadchanus gelt asked for in this initiative is three times higher than the norm!
I really don’t understand what your issue is.
jl, Also, if NASI feels so strongly about incentives for shadchanim why does it have to be a big public thing?
I think they’re giving it a better chance, by making one central hub for these shidduchim. As you pointed out yourself, shadchanim are already privately engaged, so saying it should be done privately is in essence saying “lets do nothing”.
As far as the boys coming back earlier, this is where I differ from NASI; they’re in favor of it, I think it’s completely an individual decision, and most boys will decide that they’re better off learning for a while longer before getting married.
As far as putting girls in the freezer, is it really fair to tell a girl who is ready to get married that she must wait? It would likely a “g’zeira she’ein hatzibbur y’ccholim la’amod bah”.
NASI’s ideas are aimed at that same goal, indirectly, but without the negative backlash which would surely erupt (much worse than anything we’ve seen thus far) if rabbonim would forbid some girls from getting married.
I think encouraging (call it bribing if you wish) shadchanim to focus on the older girls is the only way to go. Hopefully, when the message is out that we need to focus on the older girls, many will do so even without financial incentive. Then everyone will be helped, be”H.
How in the world will the new NASI project where older girls pay up front, which this thread was discussing from the beginning, ease the age gap problem?
The theory is that the shadchanim, when dealing with a particular bochur, will be motivated to redt him older girls.
It’s not foolproof, because there’s no specific stipulation that the boy must be within a certain age of the girl. It should generally work out anyhow, as I said, because many shadchanim have a relationships with a particular boys, and based on the fact that there are much fewer older boys around than younger ones (most of the older ones are married).
We need to pin down why there are much less older boys available to date, than older girls
Age gap
what we can do about it
Encourage closer in age shidduchim.
That’s what NASI is all about, as well as this initiative. If shadchanim, such as yourself, would get on board instead of being negative about it, it would be more likely to work.
Even granting that most people won’t go for it, your Tylenol moshol is still imperfect. Whereas Tylenol only relieves pain, if the age gap is closed even slightly, that means, statistically, fewer unmarried older girls. For those girls, even if few, it’s better than acetaminophen; it’s a cure. A better moshol might be a cure which has a 1% better chance of success than any other cure. For those few who survive, it’s quite significant.
oomis, …the process needs to be re-evaluated so we can see where different HALACHICALLY ACCEPTABLE methodologies can be utilized.
That’s been done. Even the normative way which yeshivah boys now “date” (several meetings, outside of the home) was controversial when it first began, but it was deemed necessary, under the umbrella of “???? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??????”, but nobody ever took it as far as you suggest.
No disrespect was taken, and certainly none was intended on my part either.
tahini,
It’s very admirable that you are proud of your children for becoming more “yeshivish”. Many parents whose children have done so are antagonistic towards them, and certainly are not proud. You must possess extraordinary character.
I nevertheless disagree with the rest of your post.
“Chatting at a communal shabbaton or shul kiddush” is no different than the mixed Tashlich decried by the poskim.
As I’ve explained, the money issue is not, IMO, insulting, just practical. It would be a nice ideal to say that even more difficult shadchanus should be done for free, but surely, if the older girls were indeed being focused on, there would be no need for this initiative.
It’s quite admirable that your relatives who are doctors and lawyers (who, it should be noted, are usually considerably more well off financially than full time shadchanim) occasionally do work pro-bono, but it’s unfair to demand that of others.
passfan,
??? ????. The ??? ???? says the same, and quotes the ??? ????? that the ??? ??? did not allow his daughters to go to Tashlich on R”H for this reason.
The ??? ???? and ??? ???? are standard commentaries on ??? ?????, printed in many editions and quoted by later poskim.
Popa, why do you stand for the Haftarah?
oomis,
You still defend socializing even though the Shulchan Aruch says it’s assur? Amazing.
The present generation of yeshivah boys has very little trouble getting married, b”H, it’s much more of an issue with the girls.
Oomis,
??”? (??”? ??’ ?”? ???’ ?’): ???? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???’ ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????
??? ???? ???”? ?’: ??? ???? ????? (?????? ????) ?? ?????? ?????? ?”? ??????, ?? ???? ??”? ???????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??’ ???
tahini,
see point 1) above. Two more quotes:
?????? ?? – ??? ????????? ??????
It has nothing to do with being “modern orthodox”, it’a a matter of ignoring the words of Chaza”l.
Quickly, before Shabbos:
BTGuy, I don’t fully understand your post, so forgive me if I got you wrong, but it seems that you agree that the shadchanim should suggest older girls, and the boys are wrong for turning down such suggestions. This NASI initiative motivates the shadchan to redt the older girls, which they otherwise would not have (because it’s more time consuming), and it only works for the boys who would agree to go out with an older girl. you numbers are slightly off (the program starts at 22) but the idea is that more motivation is needed to redt the 24 year old than the 22 year old.
What does seminary have in common with cell phones which don’t have a plan?
They’re both prepaid.
gavra_at_work, DY: WADR to BTguy, I believe his main issue is that we should not be manipulating the system at all. Assuming shaddchonim (and others proposing shidduchim) have the best interests of the couple in mind, the shaddchan proposes what he/she thinks is the best shidduch. To pay out so that the second best shidduch is proposed does sound wrong.
Then he should say so. This would actually be the strongest argument against closing the age gap. However, why do you assume that a closer in age girl is second best? In many respects, she’s better. If a particular boy feels needs a younger girl, nobody’s forcing him to go out with an older one.
As far as “manipulating the system”, it sounds evil, especially when some people call it “social engineering”, but if the benefits outweigh the disadvantages, (and as I wrote, it won’t cause inferior shidduchim) what’s really the problem? This possible hashkafah issue is best left to our gedolim, and we know where they stand.
apushatayid, Why don’t we ask her what she advocated instead of assuming.
Because she already told us. It’s not an assumption.
BSD, DY. “I think a Lexus is overpriced, so I drive a Ford. But I’m not upset at Lexus.”
Great analogy except I would compare it to a Honda Accord. Lexus implies overindulgence while Honda represents respectability – as apposed to trying to do things yishivish in order to save money at the expense of being effective and accomplishing the objective.
Except that I drive a Mustang. 😉
Seriously, I agree with you, but I used Lexus to illustrate that even the opponents of this program, who consider it a waste of money, are expressing their opinion about how other people should or should not spend their money. They do not need to join.
Doswin,
Thanks. It’s very nice to see someone being fair even if they have a different opinion.
aries, DY, if the supply is the girl who signed the contract and is in fact prepared to pay the bucks, then the shadchan should not be hung up with the boy who does not necessarily have to sign a contract. She is chasing down the boys. They are in demand. So your little scenario is a false pretense and totally inaccurate.
Okay, you got me on a technicality, but the scenario would be equally ludicrous if the conversation was with the girls’ parents.