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Looks like another post of mine got deleted.
I posted a Limerick in the Limerick’s thread on April Fool’s which I thought was pretty innocent. I’m not sure why it wasn’t approved.
Sorry if I posted something so confusing.
The point was to come up with a broken system (I.e. a teacher that makes a grading curve that can have a negative impact when a gifted student is in the class instead of exams that are calibrated fairly amongst all classes).
It’s unfair to blame the student for the broken system. The gifted student did nothing wrong by killing the curve and has all to lose but nothing to gain by going along with the scheme.
Similarly, it’s unfair to blame the elite for not wanting to go along with proposed changes to a seriously broken shidduch system. They have nothing to gain but all to lose.
The shidduch system is extremely complicated and the broken parts are highly controversial. I was trying to think of a simple situation that discretizes a more complex situation.
Again, I apologize if I lost you somewhere along the way.
No, but I am salivating thinking about their sino steaks. 😂
That coded message didn’t use the public key / private key method.
The coded messages I’m referring to are on Page 45 of “The Riddle Thread”, from March / April 2013.
I don’t recall that thread or any encoded messages that had links in them.
There once was a poster who’d say,
“I’ll show up on April Fools – hey”,
But Erev Pesach came
and ruined the game-
“Keep cleaning” his wife would say”.@ ujm
You’re correct in that I’ve mentioned it a number of times before- I was trying to surreptitiously figure out if you decoded the message and if so if you used brute force or found the public key and derived the private key. (Or used a team of Polish Cryptographers like someone else did.)
I recall the email that you sent me where you identified yourself- that was with the email address I used to sign up to YWN with (so I don’t get the spam emails in my personal account). I haven’t checked it in over a decade so if you’ve reached out to me on there since then I haven’t seen it.
As I mentioned before- there were two people who contacted me using the email address in an encoded post and I was wondering if one (or both) were you.
@ rescue
In order to avoid getting into (the potentially controversial) details about what advantages the elites may have in shidduchim- let’s look at an external example.
When I was in college, one of my professors would give difficult exams and as a curve he would add to everyone’s grade the amount of points it took to get the highest mark to 100.
For the final exam there was an idea floating around that everyone should hand in their tests totally blank. Everyone would get a zero, the highest mark would be a zero and he’d add 100 points to everyone’s grade and everyone would get 100.
A number of classmates had high enough averages to get an A as long as they got above a 75 or so. These students had nothing to gain but lots to lose by going along with the plan (I.e. all it takes would have been one failing student to hand in a test and scoring a 50).
@ anso
No, we’re definitely not in Germany and I’m definitely not being hushed (except for in the Coffee Room).
I try to always be sensitive and use soft language.
Someone reached out to me personally regarding an opinion I posted here.
(I opined that I didn’t think it was fair for a Shadchan to get a list of guys names from yeshivas and suggest them as a possible shidduch without their permission. The other person felt it was justified since it gave hope to so many girls who otherwise wouldn’t have known that someone was thinking of them.)
I didn’t agree with their opinion but we agreed to disagree. I was also asked to stop posting my opinion here.
Between feeling guilty about not being sensitive to others, the difficulty of having a productive conversation here on a serious topic and at times using stronger language than I’m accustomed to- I decided to take a step back in this topic.
Back in 2009 the mods didn’t approve a post of mine that wasn’t inappropriate or rude- it was just off topic (the topic was Shabbos sirens and my post was about a bungalow colony).
In 2010 I posted my best Sukka story- and it was approved. It was supposed to be inspirational but was funny for whoever read between the lines. I guess the mods didn’t notice at first but then someone pointed it out. Anyway- years later I noticed that it got deleted so I posted a different story instead.
@ rescue
I’d word that slightly differently.
The elites have nothing to gain but possibly lots to lose by going along with any proposed changes.
There are non-elites that gain from this broken system.
@ BaltimoreMaven
I agree 100%!
Recently I was reminiscing a few times from many years ago that I davened really hard for something (and it was definitely לשמה) and I was wondering why ה׳ didn’t answer my תפילת.
Looking back now it all makes sense. I was davening for the wrong thing and I’m grateful that ה׳ answered with what I really needed.
@ ujm
I missed that thread – sorry.
Back to the disappearing posts- years ago I left encoded messages in “The Riddle Thread” and left the public key used to encode the messages in a different thread.
(The private key was purposely related to the public key so anyone with the private key could easily derive it.)
The thread where I thought I left it seems to have been truncated in middle of someone else’s post. Do you recall that post?
(I got contacted by some posters on the email address I left in a message and was able to verify all the posters but two. I suspected that those two were you. Do you recall any of this?)
@ besalel
The first thing I’d do is call them and ask if they have insurance.
Im not sure how it works but a neighbor of mine once called Chaverim when was told that their insurance won’t let them fix the issue his car was having that day.
I don’t have the time in the week before Pesach to hunt down the threads from back then.
I also noticed that some posts have been edited or deleted years later. I’m wondering if it was intentional or a glitch.
I hate being vague but given the circumstances I need to be.
When I wrote that the process works for some people I meant that the various “broken” parts of the process work for some people- I wasn’t referring to the process in general per se. Those that the broken parts of the system work for are either going to be against fixing it or simply not comply.
For example- I personally think that litigation and class action lawsuits have gotten out of hand. It raises the prices of lots of products and services for everyone. But- it works great for lawyers who will fight tooth and nail against any type of legislation.
@rescue-
As I mentioned before in this thread- if someone is living outside the US and doesn’t want to pay US taxes, they’re more than welcome to renounce their citizenship. Most likely the reason why they don’t is for the benefits that come along with US Citizenship.
Being a citizen of a country is an exposure (i.e. liability / risk) for the country. Look how many US Citizens turned to the consulate recently to help them find a flight out of Eretz Yisroel. A person using the resources of the country while not having paid the required taxes is stealing. There’s no way around that.
I was referring to this post by @areivimzehlazeh: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/funny-shidduch-stories/page/11#post-1226755
In case the link doesn’t take you there it’s post # 1226755 on Page 11 of the thread.
As far as the post you’re referring to- are you sure I actually read that thread? If I didn’t comment in it, chances are that I never opened it.
As with practically anything nowadays, when a system dramatically fails it’s not one, two or even a handful of things that go wrong- it’s a systemic failure coming from many different areas.
The shidduch problems are no different.
I was personally asked to stop commenting here regarding the underlying issues but suffice it to say that most of the “problems” that you and other posters have brought up are merely byproducts of deeper underlying issues that need to be addressed before any changes will be noticed.
Without pointing a finger at any person or group I will say that despite the process being an utter failure- it does work for some people. In order for any changes to have a meaningful effect, everyone needs to be onboard. Those that it works for have no incentive to join.
@ujm-
That’s exactly what I was referring to.
Congratulations!
Are you referring to the accident on Ave J?
Also,
I�m in touch with squeak on a regular basis but we don�t talk about the Coffee Room anymore- it hasn�t come up in years.
I don�t even bother asking him to join your game of chess anymore.
At a ???? a few years back, the waiter put a bottle of Dr. Pepper between us and he didn�t even crack a smile.
Ok, here�s another one.
Where did a poster mention that:
A relative was engaged to a girl when a shadchan got a message from a rich guy in a neighboring town that he would pay him to find a top guy in yeshiva for his daughter to go out with.
The shadchan asked the ???? to go out with the rich guy�s daughter and offered to split the payment.
I�m definitely not an expert on the ????? of ???? ??? but I was under the impression that the comment was ???? ??? against an entire community, regardless of whether it�s unique to a particular community or the percentage of the community that behaves like that.
If I�m wrong I�ll stand corrected.
Do you give up?
Check out post #902802 in this thread:
Do you want to continue with this trivia or do these kind of things not interest you?
My first thought when reading this was how to ?? you ??? ???? for saying ???? ??? on a huge community. What I came up with is that you were upset about something and needed to get it off your chest. You did this without considering how many people from Monsey you may be offending.
This isn�t something unique to Monsey, I saw it happen somewhere else, and the thought going through my mind was the driver was trying to get from Point A to Point B as efficiently as possible and just wasn�t thinking about how they were acting.
Do you think these people would ever cut the line at the supermarket because �their time is more precious than everyone else�s�?
Joseph-
Maybe we should try to have a trivia contest. Hopefully it�ll stay civil (either you track down the post, poster or topic or you don�t). Feel free to start a new thread if you want.
I�ll start-
Which poster wrote that he�s as exciting as a house plant?
Hint: The context was that I asked him to let me know when he moved so I can move nearby?
Joseph-
I try to respond to every comment posted in my direction but I don’t like hijacking threads. As this thread seems to have run its course, I don’t feel like I’m driving it off the route.
To be honest- I’m not quite sure what will get me back here. I was mekabel not to post anything political back on Rosh Hashanah of 5785 and I got a personal request to stop posting anything related to shidduchim. I joined a discussion here about tuition but some posters are way too passionate with their opinions (i.e. the ones who write that the only method that is fair to everyone is XYZ and goes on to explain a method that works great for them but would be grossly unfair to me) to have a functional conversation.
This may be a fault of mine but I get very frustrated with posters who purposely add incoherent thoughts (i.e. purposely missing the point) to what could otherwise be a normal conversation (e.g. check out the thread that discussed Social Security).
For a second I thought it would be fun to have a Coffee Room trivia contest (thanks @SACT5) but with AI all over the place I’m not sure how competitive it would be.
It’s been a long time since I first posted here (before there was even a link from the homepage- remember those days?) and lots of things have changed. I enjoyed the original “The Riddle Thread” but the majority of the intellectual thinkers that were there seemed to have moved on as well.
As I’m not officially retiring, if you can come up with a thread that I’ll find intellectually stimulating (and doesn’t get ruined by others) I’m open to joining.
Thanks again for reaching out to me- it’s a good feeling knowing that I’m remembered.
Joseph-
You�ve known me here for a looooong time but I no longer go for the same bait that I used to. That ship has long sailed.
You seemed to have figured it out (or was that a coincidence?).
Anyway- I chomped on your bait and visited to point out that your comment was already posted (back in October of 2010).
Not sure why the link didn’t work- here it is again:
In case this doesn’t either work, it’s Post # 1067979 on Page # 7.
I was just thinking about this riddle on the 17th anniversary of its posting.
There�s actually a Wikipedia page about it- look for �The monkey and the coconuts�.
I miss those days.
How about posting immediately for those that have already earned the trust of the moderators?
May 26th 2005
I met squeak for the first time (although it would be another 11 years before I realized that he was squeak).
Some victims of the shidduch crisis may be offended that a few posters are making a mockery of the situation.
If you honestly feel that you have an idea that can help- please post it and hopefully it�ll generate a productive conversation.
If you feel the need to make an offensive joke- please take it to a different thread.
(I�m not speaking for myself- I�m speaking on behalf of others.)
On the first day of Sukkos you can only be yotze if it belongs to you which is why it won�t help to lend it to someone. You can give it to an adult as a gift and they�ll give it back when they�re done but a child can not give it back.
Where does it say that if you lend something to a child it becomes theirs?
Even the most naive person knows that the probability of a Shadchan causing someone a loss is greater than zero. Accordingly a Shadchan should never be allowed to give out a person�s name without their permission.
I actually disagree with you on the part about a non-professional being responsible for damage caused when they had permission to work on something. (Assuming that the person getting damaged was aware that the damager wasn�t a professional- it�s a risk that they took and lost out.)
There are no Shadchanim that have immunity and they shouldn�t need it either. If they�re malicious then they�d forfeit any immunity typically provided to professionals. If they�re sincere and forthcoming then the singles accept all risks upon themselves when taking their advice or suggestions.
I�m not sure if you want to go down that road. If they�re spending so much time calling references why don�t they just call up the person in question and ask for permission to act as an agent on their behalf? (I think we both know the answer to that.)
Are Shadchanim really allowed to go ahead and do what they think is beneficial to someone (without permission) when practically speaking there�s a much higher chances of causing them harm?
Also, if you act one someone�s behalf without their permission and cause them a loss- are you responsible for making them whole again?
I wrote what you quoted above in reference to a Shadchanim who get names and add them to their list without the victims permission. If someone approaches a Shadchan, asks them to put them on their list and agrees (in writing) to allow the Shadchan to do research then I fully agree that the Shadchan can do any research that they want.
Similarly, if a Shadchan redts a shidduch (with the express written permission of all involved) then there�s no limit on the amount of research the other party is allowed to do.
(Obviously whatever information is obtained can not be divulged to other Shadchanim.)
I feel strongly that if a Shadchan wants to add someone�s name to their list then they needs to get their permission. They should also get in writing if the Shadchan is allowed to give out their names to a potential match without first running it by them.
Do you agree with this?
I try to respond to every post directed towards me but recently I�ve become suspicious about you. After rereading many of your recent posts (on this thread and others) I�ve been noticing a concerning trend. I sincerely hope that I�m wrong but I�m going to err on the side of caution and stop responding to you.
Out of courtesy though, I will respond to your most recent post.
Am I suggesting that the market would support such a thing?
No, I�m not suggesting that the market would support it and I don�t believe I ever wrote that. What I wrote, and still feel strongly about, is that the market NEEDS it. If not for anything else but to protect the victims of Shadchan abuse.
I�m privileged to be a member of ??? ?????, a nation that takes pride in the strict rules about talking about others. Yet for some reason that all goes out the window when someone turns a magical age and a cruel shadchan gets ahold of their name. In the name of �shidduchim� they�re all of the sudden allowed to call anyone and everyone and ask the most detailed and private questions about their personal lives (even when the target specifically tells them to remove their name and they have zero permission to discuss them). There needs to be some sort of protection for these victims.
�Other than your posts on the CR, I haven�t seen or heard of any demand for certification of shadchanim, so I don�t agree that there�s much of a market for it.�
The entire shidduch system is in shambles, even for the ones that it happens to work for. It�s a combination of many failures and addressing (or even fixing) just one of them won�t resolve the issue but may be a start. If for some reason you think that Shadchanim shouldn�t be brought under control- try explaining that instead of just writing that you haven�t seen or heard of it anywhere else so there�s no market for it.
Are you insinuating that we continue pushing agendas that have been pushed for over a decade (with practically zero positive results) since you�ve seen and heard lots of demand for it?
If you had a flat tire what�s to stop you from calling a friend or relative to help you change the tire? Nothing. Could a �mechanic� earn his livelihood by going around all day looking for friends and relatives with flat tires and help them out? Best of luck to him.
Does that mean that we don�t need professional mechanics anymore? Would you suggest that mechanics don�t get certified since then they need to be honest and knowledgeable?
That obvious answer is that for simple things you don�t need someone who�s experienced and qualified but when something gets complicated you do need them. And when someone has a serious issue with their car they�d like to see that the mechanic is ASE certified and has insurance.
Similarly by shidduchim. If a friend or relative redts a shidduch and everything works out then good for them. Even if they�re meant for each other there may be issues that come up that an experienced professional would be better at handling.
Furthermore, once a �shadchan� runs out of friends and family, they need to get more clients from somewhere.
If there was a system in place that would certify (or provide credentials or whatever) to shadchanim- when some quack calls a yeshiva and asks for their shidduch list (how they have a right to give that out without permission is a different matter) the yeshiva could first make sure that they�re certified/ credentialed before giving it out.
If there�s someone from out of town that doesn�t have friends or family that are able to help her find a shidduch and they travel to NY or Lakewood to meet shadchanim, are they going to go to the certified ones or to an uncertified one who justifies her uncertification by not wanting to be disciplined for lying or giving out private information?
At times one shadchan may feel the need to discuss a particular shidduch with a different shadchan (obviously with the express written permission from both sides). Would you feel comfortable allowing a shadchan that earned your trust to discuss your deepest personal information with someone who didn�t go through the training because they�re afraid of being part of the discipline process? I hope not!
The barrier to entry would work the same way it does for any profession.
To make it into a profession there would have to be:
Some sort of education requirements,
Some experience and guidance (I.e. working under a professional for a year or two),
An examination showing proficiency,
A list of rules that members must follow or face disciplinary actions,
A discipline process for those that do break the rules,
Continuing education requirements to make sure that members stay up to date,
And an oversight board to ensure that everything is being followed and victims have a place to file grievances.(This list is by far not all inclusive.)
There�s nothing that stops friends and family from suggesting shidduchim just like there�s nothing stopping you from getting friends or family to fix your car when it breaks down. You�re taking a risk though as you may void the warranty if a non-certified mechanic works on your car.
I�m finding it hard to have a discussion with you but I�m going to respond to some of your concerns (at least for now).
Post #2370330
�And I still say that reducing the number of shadchanim isn�t going to help.�
What I see happening in the long term is that if the incompetent shadchanim are somehow removed and more competent shadchanim are brought in (once the negative stigma of being a shadchan is removed)- then the number of shidduchim being made will go up. Professional shadchanim won�t have to compete with the riff raff and singles can go out on meaningful dates (I.e. not ones that they�re pressured into). They�ll also have more time to follow up on suggestions from friends and family.
Best of all- reducing the number of shadchanim will reduce the amount of collateral damage. (I�m sure you agree with that!)
� Also I would imagine that plenty of shadchanim who you may think are incompetent have made lots of shidduchim.�
You�re correct- but again you need to take collateral damage into account as well as the lack of precision. And no, the end doesn�t justify the means.
Take the following example:
Let�s say snipers in combat would be issued a shotgun with buckshot. Would you be against arming them with a sniper rifle using the argument that at times they do make the kill (albeit only a small number of times)?
You need to take into account that having a more accurate shot will brings more successes and reduce the amount of collateral damage.
I heard of “sawyouatsinai” but I don’t know much about it, I never heard of “imetyouatsinai” so I can’t comment on either one.
There are some professions that need barriers to entry and some that don’t. Imagine if there were no barriers to become a commercial airline pilot or surgeon- it’s not the same as delivering for Amazon.
With the amount of damage being caused by Shadchanim and the serious state of disrepair of the entire shidduch scene it’s way past the point that there needs to be some serious barriers to entry. If flooding the market with inexperienced Shadchanim would help then maybe there’s something to discuss. Until then- they need to be brought under control (i.e. creating a barrier to entry and creating a discipline process to fine, suspend or ban the ones who violate basic decency).
I’ve mentioned in the past that when I was working in the ACA, I was able to run a query to see what illnesses policyholders suffered from, what medications they were on and when they last filled their medications. If I found someone that hadn’t refilled his medication in three months and contacted his Rov, neighbors and family members to inquire about their financial situation and persuade them to start taking their medications again I would have been canned on the spot and lost my professional credentials. Yet when a Shadchan pulls a stunt like that they’re celebrated as a hero. Their blatant disregard for privacy and strong-arm tactics need to stop but with no barriers to entry there’s no incentive to act appropriately.
As far as the loading resumes is concerned- like I mentioned earlier, as long as everyone who has their resume submitted is a willing participant I can’t imagine why anyone would have an issue with it. (If Shadchanim have an issue it means that you’re onto something good and I wish you the best of luck.) Advertising and getting lots of people on board may be an issue but like every other idea posted in the numerous threads- nothing seems to be getting widespread traction and acceptance by the population at large.
If I meant something else? I’m not the one who used that word. You need to answer what you meant or rephrase the question using words that I wrote.
You still haven�t shown me where I ever mentioned anything about stam people who dabble in shidduchim. Would you like to try again (or rephrase your original question)?
If you�re only going to quote something that I posted that doesn�t contain the word �stam� then don�t waste your time because I�m not going to reply.
I�m happy to fully respond to your post but to make sure we�re on the same page can you please point me to where I ever mentioned anything about stam people who dabble in shidduchim?
I don�t think your idea will have a meaningful impact but as long as all resumes are loaded in the computer by the individual themself (or with explicit written permission from the individual) then I can�t see why anyone would have an issue.
You�d also have to get some geniuses to figure out how the system will be exploited and mitigate those gaps.
While you�re at it- you may want to add a feature that lets you know if the type of person that you�re looking for is also looking for you. (Just a thought.)
I never heard of imetyouatsinai so I can�t comment. Sorry
Would you be able to comment on what�s wrong with creating a barrier to new entrants?
What’s wrong with creating a barrier to new entrants? If it removes all the shadchanim who shouldn’t be there to begin with and prevents new ones who don’t belong there from coming in- that’ll be a win for everyone. The few who belong there won’t be ashamed to refer to themselves as “shadchanim” (and won’t have to deal with the riff raff), those who are forced out can pasture elsewhere and do something productive with their lives, new entrants who didn’t want to be part of the riff raff could get certified and help those who can use their help and finally- the singles who need them the most would know where to turn.
I love your idea of a place where victims of shadchanim could leave their negative comments. After hearing countless times “stop being a chenyukkel, you need to tell me why you said ‘no’, there’s no Issur of Lashon Hora by shadchanim”- it would be nice to give them a taste of their own medicine.
I can’t see the shidduch process being automated. Finding one’s bashert is much more complicated than purchasing a plane ticket, especially since a good part of the time the person themself doesn’t fully understand or know what they’re looking for. That’s why we could use “professional” shadchanim, those who were able to join the profession by getting by the barrier and are able to live up to a strict code of ethics.
I�m not complaining ?, I�m just explaining how Social Security works (or was supposed to work) for those who didn�t know. And I�m not relying on it for when I retire.
I just consider it a tax that I�m not receiving any benefit for. A small price to pay to this wonderful country that took in my ancestors with open arms when they had nowhere else to turn.
With that being said- it is a free country and I have the privilege of voting for representatives who I feel will do a better job with the taxes that I pay.
You’re missing a critical word- “there aren�t enough COMPETENT shadchanim”. Increasing the number of untrained shadchanim will just exacerbate the situation. Increasing the number of competent shadchanim while getting rid of the ones who shouldn’t be in the business in the first place would be a great start to solving the crisis. (Although there are many, many other factors that will need to be addressed.)
You can count me and my wife as a shidduch that was made by a family or friend- we were the only successful shidduch she ever made. After a suffering a horrific incident at the hands of a cruel “professional” shadchan I decided that under no circumstances would I ever use a “professional” shadchan again. Guess what- a family friend who was being pushed out of the way by the ruthless shadchanim was finally able to set me up with my wife and the rest is history.
I’m all for people relying on friends and family to set people up and a permanent ban on professional shadchanim. There’s a difference between a friend or family member who dabbles in shidduchim verses a shadchan whose only training and experience is that they “dabble” in shidduchim (i.e. the arrogance and lack of basic decency that comes along with being a �professional� shadchan).
Against my better judgement I’ll explain where that came from.
In post #2366867 you wrote that “It�s still not a Ponzi scheme, even if it�s not going to last” but didn’t explain why.
In post #2367605 I gave the parable of a band-aid verses a bandage and asked if you feel the same way about Social Security? Even though it looks like a Ponzi Scheme, functions like a Ponzi Schem and is destined to collapse like a Ponzi Scheme it isn�t a Ponzi Scheme because it�s legal and transparent?
I thought it was a simple question- do you agree that it’s like a Ponzi Scheme (i.e. current payments pay prior liabilities and current liabilities will hopefully be paid by future payments) but technically isn’t one because Social Security is legal?
In post #2367699, instead of answering my question you asked what wasn’t clear. And then in post #2367703 you mentioned some more reasons why it’s technically not a Ponzi Scheme but still didn’t answer my question.
So, in post #2368218 I left a pretty simple multiple-choice question which your response in post #2368385 seemed to imply to me that you weren’t interested in having an intelligent conversation.