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DY: a company affiliated to him owned the beer in it’s possession on pesach of 2017. It is the nature of the affiliation I am questioning. Is he the majority shareholder, decisionmaker, both or neither? Did any Kashrus agency anallize the corporate structure? Are Kashrus agencies qualified to offer opinions on this too?
Random- mathematician was changed to “mathematics lian” for some reason, by my phone.
I agree Neville, that if this guy owned a store and didn’t sell, one shouldn’t but from the pesach stock. I did look up the Manhattan corporate entities. There are 3. This probably Jewish fellow is the founder and CEO of at least one of them. This does *not* mean he *owns* the majority of the company that buys the beer he distributes.
As far as my *this beer* point, random, I was saying that the beer in the store is not necessarily the same beer that was owned by a Jew on pesach. An important distinction.
It is not my psak over anyone else’s. The “Kashrus industry” doesn’t have a psak regarding individual stores, not that it’s binding if they do. I’m just trying to follow halacha to the best of my ability. I recommend that others do the same.
fine I’ll change the phrase “potentially jewish” to “likely jewish.” I still haven’t heard what the business structure of the distributor is. is it a c-corp, s-corp or partnership, etc? who owns the shares? I doubt the distributor makes this info public. I’m not relying on this alone, rather, I’m stating, that cumulatively, an individual beer bottle for sale in NYC is not probably Chometz sheovar, and accordingly is muttar.
dy- Potentially Jewish means that although the founder of the distribution company had parents who went through Auschwitz, there are more questions which could be asked as to yichus and ownership of the distribution business entity.
Neville- I am not refusing to do any research. I am refusing to rely upon broad, unsophisticated statements as to probability which make no sense. If someone spent 2 hours researching the third 6pack of Heineken from the front in my local liquor store, I’d listen. Until then, nothing stated has come close to implying the third 6pack of Heineken from the front in my local store is Chometz sheovar.
The Chelkas Yakov, mb, Reb Moshe, and normative halacha pasken that sofek Chometz sheovar is mutar baachila. Not my chidush.
DY: a near-monopoly by a potentially jewish distributor on beer deliveries over pesach does *not* equal the idea that most beer in any store within given area is Chometz sheovar. Even the day after pesach. Also not two weeks after pesach. *Any* reputable and knowledgeable posek, including those behind most Kashrus agencies, would or should, at best, equivocate. Those that do otherwise, are, in my opinion, wrong. You, and everyone else, should follow your *own* rabbi’s opinion. Even if he’s wrong. That is all I have to say on this issue. L’chaim, again!
Nevile, see #1509152 where u questioned normative halacha which holds it’s derabanan.
The difference between deoreisas and derabannans are significant in the sense that sfeikos are treated very differently. Further, being that the intent of the derabanan is as a gezeira of knas, it is possible that the gezeira has special rules of application.
The application of knowledge of a large, possibly jewish, regional distributor, who owns, or may own, a chometz mixture on pesach, to a blanket issur on most beer brands in all stores in said region, requires a number of factual assumptions.
The fact that it’s a derabbanan means that I may not have to engage in all those assumptions.
I’m not sure what the crc said, precisely. I did listen to an employee of the star-k speak about this on a podcast. He was careful to limit Rav Heineman’s extreme carefulness regarding mechiras chometz to venues under the star-k hashgacha. I respect that part of what he said.
Bottom line: despite your continued rhetoric, and calling this “beer shel hetter” “chometz shel issur,” I believe that:
1. Halacha as I understand it states that all beer in the tristate area is muttar lechatchila
2. You haven’t come close to persuading me otherwise.
3. A Kashrus agency’s job is to ensure that items it certifies are kosher. If it fails at that job, it becomes disreputable. If it has extracurricular activities outside it’s job, it carries the risk of becoming a joke. I hope that the agencies involved in this learned some kind of lesson.
4. the folks putting up kol korehs and investigating the yichus of distributors, will, in my opinion, be held accountable upstairs, for being machshil and matriach the masses.
5. If you have a local liquor store, owned by a Jewish person, open on pesach, you should not buy alcohol there until most of the stock of the brand you are purchasing has been replaced. even then, it might be better to buy elsewhere. This is what halacha says. applying this halacha to distributors requires a levelheaded and halachic approach. the folks making noises, are, in my opinion, not using a levelheaded and halachic approach.
have a good shabbos! l’chaim!
Neville: “Chometz shel issur”? whose language is that?
“You’re trying to infer from the silence in previous years that they were matir?”
I “suspected” (as part of my dan lekaf zechus approach to this shenanigan) that because no reputable kashrus agency can call random beer in a random store after pesach “assur” for the reasons I stated above EVEN WITHOUT ANY MECHIRA, they correctly “didn’t know that the distributor was Jewish.”
Once there was a mechira done (which is a great thing) and OK and R’ Weinfeld had the related publicity tour, the OU was forced to publicly state its position that the Mechira is not valid (per Rav Soloveitchik’s shitta over R’ Moshe’s). Note: The OU never formally stated that any individual beer in any individual store is assur, for good reason.
I love how you evaded discussing your extremist halachik opinion that the “beer shel hetter”(tm) is “Chometz shel issur” because you believe that chometz sheovar alav pesach is a de’oraisa. Halacha lemaisa – it isn’t.
Neville- Finally! A constructive discussion. Mainstream halacha in the US, following R’ Moshe and the M”B amongst a overwhelming majority of poskim, hold that it’s a derabannan. Thus, a shita that it is a deoraisa, while it may have a logical basis, has no place in the public discussion of buying beer near NYC after pesach.
As to your statement that “the ‘irresponsible position’ that you reference is not coming from me, but from several mainstream kashrus agencies,” I have a few thoughts: 1. Is it possible that it is both you and the kashrus agencies? 2. Don’t you find it interesting that the only time this information was released was *after* a sale was made? I suspect that the information was *rightfully* withheld from the public as a nonactive way of following the correct halacha. 3. I have yet to see *one* kashrus agency which says that an individual may not buy any of these brands of beer from any store (the Star-K’s unusual position regarding certifying products going through institutions selling chometz notwithstanding).
A kashrus agency’s power lies in its fact-finding boots on the ground, along with its rabbinic guidance. When an agency’s only proactive statement about something is on a podcast, it kind of loses its gravitas. Now if Rav Shechter signed off on an official OU statement that every bottle of certain brands of beer *may* not be bought unless one is *certain* that it is not chometz sheovar, that would be a different story. That hasn’t happened, and I believe it won’t, for good reason.
Joseph- who is the current monarch?
Also, AviK do we have organized communities in the US?
European concepts allowed for secular government recognition of quasi-independent religious authority. Our US constitution, as currently understood, I believe, forbids such etablishment of religion.
CY- it is a complicated question. I’m not an employment lawyer. Discrimination on the basis of gender and religion is unlawful under title vii, which applies to all employers of 15 or more people.
Note: failing to accommodate a religious need is not discrimination, and has separate rules regarding how hard it is for the employer to accommodate. Thus your post regarding erev shabbos is incorrect.In my brief googling of the topic I did come across some interesting eeoc guidance re: when religious accommodation can cause gender discrimination, involving a Muslim who wouldn’t shake hands with women. See Nov. 20, 2009 eeoc letter via Google.
iac: I meant randomex, my apologies.
Neville I’m not yelling. You appear to be confusing mathematics and the “din” of a “safek” or sfeik sfeika.
The beer in front of you in the liqour store was either in the hand of a jewish distributor over pesach or not. One Safek, let’s say, but how do you calculate odds? Say 40% of the beer in this store was purchased at a time where there is a 75% chance that it was in the hands of a Jew over pesach. What are the odds that the bottle in front of you is Chometz sheovar? there are other mathematical questions as well.Assuming that there is a 50% halachik threshold regarding the odds of this “safek derabanan” in order to tell someone else to be machmir lechatchila, don’t you think your position is irresponsible? If you disagree with the 50% number as a matter of halacha, that’s a different story but say so, in straightforward way.
“Can there be an executive without a state?” An excellent and fundamental question. Inasmuch as an institution “does,” in theory, the executive would be the part that is “doing.” I think.
The legislative from Sinai idea is that the law is divinely originated, not man-made. While we still inherently (must) have a power to interpret, the power to enact, these days, is not clear, and would only be within the rigid rubric from Sinai.
Involved laypersons would be the non-rabbis, who are trying to act upon the rabbinic interpretation of the laws from Sinai and regulations added thereafter.
Obviously this is a whimsical and theoretical discussion. But aren’t these fundamental structures important to define?
@dy, Mr. “greater than 50%,” do you have any evidence supporting that bold assertion? Does that evidence apply to all liquor stores? In my personal liquor store, often, beer stays on the shelf for more than 2 weeks. Often it does not. The owner does not know which beer arrived, when. On which days, if any, would you assume issur in said case? Do you have a halachik source for this (under the psak halacha that this is a Safek derabanan?)
Does a distributor own the product? What if the founding manager holds the controlling shares of his corporation in a trust with the benficiaries not being Jewish. how would you know or calculate these odds?
How many days does the average beer bottle stay with the distributor?iacisrmma:
This beer as opposed to other beer, obviously. Owned as opposed to not owned, obviously. And regarding “mathematics lian,” both of us should defer to mathematicians regarding both the calculation of cumulative odds, and also regarding frequency of typos and how often they affect the content of an argument.
Randomex:
“if one were to translate lehavdil the three branches of government into Judaism
On what basis?”
On the basis that these three powers exist in all law-based institutions. Being that yiddishkeit is a law based institution, it has at least those three powers. The question is, how are they divided? The Torah divides between Kehuna, Melucha, Nevius, and Rabbanus with distinct rules for each.
Who is the executive branch now that we have no king?
I think it is an important question.No one is addressing the fundamental and baseline question:
(Assuming the valid sale didn’t exist)
If you buy a beer from a random store, what are the odds that 1. *this* beer was 2. *owned* by a 3. *Jew* 4. *on pesach*.
Need all four. I’m not a great mathematics lian but I believe R’ Moshe held that a greater than 50% likelihood of *all four* means that one should be machmir lechatchila on this Safek derabanan.
Who has the burden of proving the math?
Why are people making all assumptions to chumra?
Why are people applying psakim about Jewish stores which definitely owned *this item* of chometz, to distributors?All this said, ask a Rabbi. But make sure he knows math, doesn’t get affected by peer pressure, and is capable of distinguishing between things that need to be distinguished.
bpd is likely referring to borderline personality disorder. David, the word criminal is harsh. bpd presents itself on dates relatively clearly.
Funny, Joseph. Because the power of psak is real (like lehavdil, the judiciary) whereas the “gadol hador’s” power is undefined, illusory, unenforceable, without clear precedent, comes from a chassidish place,
So a “posek hador” if he exists would have real power. The term “gadol hador” is mostly meaningless.Or, it’s very sad that you didn’t begin to understand mine. If it helps, I didn’t expect you too, so I was already sad before I wrote it.
Closest thing I got to a definition of Gadol: the guy/s who make/s the decision re: who will speak at the siyum hashas and the seating arrangements on the dais.
on a serious note, if one were to translate lehavdil the three branches of government into Judaism, legislative powers are from Sinai, rabbonim (and/or cohanim) are the judiciary, but who is the executive? we don’t have a king anymore. I think it’s the involved laypersons. or at least it should be. separation of powers is a Jewish concept; chashmonaim were punished for not having it.
So the criteria for a Gadol now is whoever approves of Trump in English?
I always suspected some kind of democratic process in the decision of who to place on the gedolim pedestal, including public opinion, but I never knew the electoral college was involved.
More importantly, who decides? Is there a vote? Who is qualified to vote? Further, since daas Torah has special siyata dishmaya and is infallible, can it be me? I want to be infallible too…
Of course yeshiva boys are allowed to wear colored shirts. That’s not a question.
Should white shirts be encouraged as a matter of policy?
I don’t think so. Obviously, others do. Mantras about uniforms seem silly to me, when the question is how to set a policy that enables both the individual and the group to be most likely to grow, with the priority, as always in chinuch, on the individual.
“Chanoch Lanearim Al Pi Darkeihem,” right?Personally, I think ADHD medication is vastly UNDER-PRESCRIBED amongst Frum adults.
Because getting these folk to a psychiatrist is nigh near impossible, it falls to the PCP’s and pediatricians to rectify the problem.
Corrected prescriptions would likely solve both (talking and perceived schlepping) problems.
“Socially acceptable.” Hmmm. To which society do you refer?
In America, the CDC successfully (for the most part) convinced the public that smoking is not “cool”.
In the US 17 percent of adult males and 13% of females currently smoke, per CDC.
In the Yeshivish world, women rarely smoked, even when rates among men were sky-high and health was not perceived to be detrimentally affected (per my incomplete knowledge of “Yeshivish social history”).
Citing statistics without context is an excellent way to be misleading.
Ergo, women are misleading.
#myargumentsbetterthanyours
In terms of entertainment I receive from posters, Health, you are quite near the top of the list. Regardless (or should I say because) of your intent, don’t stop!
The topic should be: at what age are other people entitled to make hygiene decisions for others- particularly those they don’t know? (NEWSFLASH TO THE SECOND HAND SMOKE BANDWAGON FOLK: occasional second hand smoke outdoors is about as unhealthy as putting on deodorant or a little more healthy than a vaccine and I’m a pro-vax dude…)
No. Because you you argue and bring up controversial topics adeptly, yet are seemingly (or pretend to be) clueless when it comes to social interaction.
Ironically, you attacked me, instead of my argument.
Best of luck.
Lenny- I don’t know what to make of your story. You seem to be a very interesting person. The following types of person come to mind:
1. An authentic genuine person who is lacking certain social skills;
2. A troll without a specific goal; or
3. A dangerous troll trying to use this forum as a tool for your goals.
I hope you are one, yet my instincts tell me you are 3. Regardless of what you are, you likely need professional advice regarding significant medical moral and psychological issues.
This may seem harsh, but I call them as I see them. Prove me wrong and I’ll retract.
“If you could describe yourself in one word what would it be?” — No.
The original “agudah” in the early 1900’s was an unprecedented event on a societal level in galus. The changes that were proposed and implemented there are obvious to any unbiased thinker.
The holocaust and communication technologies caused a previously impossible centralization of authorities.
There’s a reason why the “haskalah” became “less of a nissayon”.
As to whether the people who quote the Gra besht and Reb yisroel salanter, are fully accurate, is an interesting question.
These great men were a part of a much larger plethora of social “orthodoxy” (formerly called Judaism in years past).
“But I’m curious if any of those who believe “Hareidism” is indeed a “modern phenomenon” can name any of the founders of this new movement, and how their beliefs differed from those of their teachers.”
The Brisker Rav, Chazon Ish, Reb Aharon Kotler, and Satmar Rav, were all charismatic and influential people who had some significant chiddushim in their mehalchim.
That’s where a person who believes as above might start pointing. #justsaying
I’d also like to add, for those reading this as a window of “insight” into an “insular” community, that the posters here are not a representative sample of the orthodox community as a whole. This “poll” is skewed toward those of us who are loudest, most bored, and online.
Vehamayvin yavin.
obtain a beis din's preliminary ruling without actually going to a beis din
“Lenny- good luck with your marital issues. I’m just pointing out to you and any others who might find this interesting, that while there are many genuine sincere posters, there are also trolls. One does not always know the motives of all posters on anonymous forums. Everything said here, even if you find it informative, should be taken with a grain of salt.
Marriage is a complex topic. There is an intersection of religious, legal, individual, and societal norms. No one here is going to pithily summarize the halachik get process. There is no short and accurate summary.”
Lenny- good luck with your marital issues. I’m just pointing out to you and any others who might find this interesting, that while there are many genuine sincere posters, there are also trolls. One does not always know the motives of all posters on anonymous forums. Everything said here, even if you find it informative, should be taken with a grain of salt.
Marriage is a complex topic. There is an intersection of religious, legal, individual, and societal norms. No one here is going to pithily summarize the halachik get process. There is no short and accurate summary.
Related question: do posters here know that asking ill-formed subjectively specific broad questions on controversial and serious topics, will not lead to anything but entertainment?
There are those that refer to anyone who they believe was once an addict as a “recovering addict.”
Bottom line — you marry the person, not the status. Keep your eyes open, and use your brain, not your heart. And that’s not a blanket no. Good luck.
The [main] question is not whether gelcaps are “kosher”. Mainstream normative halacha tends to be cautious and not rely on the gedolim who paskened that gelatin is mutar lechatchila.
The main question is regarding to what extent taking pills is “eating.”
Kashrus organizations are beautiful things. Their existence enable many yidden to keep kosher easily, and offers many yidden a good parnassah. Their recommendations, particularly regarding eating food, are important.
Halacha (to the best of my knowledge) says that taking pills is not “eating food.” If you have knowledge otherwise either of: a. a long-accepted halachik practice (ie binding authority); or, b. a persuasive argument made by someone you respect (persuasive authority), you can cite the source and we can discuss whether the source is instructive to us.
My assumption of muttar gammur is based on my learning, mesorah, and general knowledge. I call it an assumption, because halacha is very fact specific. The assumption is that the facts apply to my knowledge of halacha.
I am not paskening for anyone here. Everyone should ask a competent rabbi if nonvitamin pills need to be kosher.
If you dont have a rabbi you can look at kashrus websites, blogs, coffeerooms, and/or google or (lehavdil) sefarim until you are definitively convinced one way or another. But you should probably get a rabbi so that the research is his responsibility. Also, he is probably better at it than you are.
A gutten kvittel to all…
Iacisrmma- idk what happens when I assume. When you assume that the quote below which you quoted from the crc, is definitive halacha, I’d think it makes your argument look weak. Citation to authority is a logical flaw unless the central issue is comparing authorities. I did not see that as the central issue.
“From the CRC OTC Medicine list:
Advil Liqui-Gels Gelcap Not Recommended
Advil Migrane Liqui-Gel Gelcap Not Recommended”
Assuming (arguendo) that gelatin is equivalent to pork wrapped in tasteless plastic (which is questionable but apparently assumed by many), and you’d be taking it for its chemical effect (not its nutrition) you are talking (a minimum) of a derabanan in two different ways. When taking such an item for the sake of relieving discomfort or even adding comfort, even if NOT incapacitating, I’d assume MUTTAR GAMMUR.
Those who make an assumption otherwise, particularly in public are making a number of mistakes.
Again in my halachik opinion.
Ask your rabbi.
Even if the av beis din of the crc is your rabbi, ask him in person. I think you’d be surprised.
Hashgacha is supervision. This requires “boots on the ground” and possible technical knowledge of processes.
Halacha involves a practical application of torah theory.
When discussing halachik ideas, a kashrus organization is (at best) just as qualified as other rabbonim.
So a gelatin gapsule is “an edible food item”? Gentiles munch on them all the time. Yup.
Many others, some greater, disagree. Again, we are discussing halacha, not hashgacha here.
iacisrmma – their reasoning is fair, quasi-consistent, but wrong. Again, the reason a kashrus organization has a say, is their supervision — NOT their halachik expertise. My opinion on this website, is JUST as valid as their opinion on their website. Ask a rav. Agreed. Asking a mashgiach halacha, is akin to asking a shatnez “expert” whether you are obligated to check. Don’t.
JUST ASK A RABBI!!!!
(and if he knows his stuff he’ll agree with me…)
iacisrmma – there are two questions: 1. what are the ingredients?; and, 2. Do the ingredients matter?
Kashrus organizations are often competent at determining ingredients. They have NO say on whether the ingredients matter.
Our discussion above was operating with the assumption that capsules have non-kosher gelatin.
The regular caplets have a candy coating that has no gelatin and has no actual hechsher on the bottle. There are those that would say it is the equivalent of buying any candy without a hechsher. The CRC and Star-K do not have a hechsher on the bottle FYI.
Many pills, particularly capsules, are not kosher. Being that you take pills for their chemical effect as opposed to its nutrition, taking them is not a problem halachicly, as it is not “derech achila.”
Kabbalisticly, there are those that say that “timtum” may occur regardless.
Vitamins and flavored coatings are both shailos, as they each have aspects of “derech achila”.
The above opinion is for reference only, based upon information and belief.
Always ask a competent rabbi for halachik questions.
For kabbalistic questions, perhaps you can try the “goral hagra”. I definitely can’t help in that regard.
They are also quicker acting than regular tablets. Interestingly, regular tablets have more of a question, as the coating is deliberately flavored.
Neville- actually the issue is what to do about evil men who use halacha evilly to take advantage of other people. Since the times of Chazal until recently there were ways for Rabbis to socially control such behavior. Until recently there was not much economic incentive for such behavior.
Things have changed.
The question is how does halacha deal with this new situation?
The answer is that the Rabbis have a lot of discretion. Torah lo bashomayim hi.
DY- that is unresponsive and sarcastic. What is your solution?
And what are you doing to prevent a Get being used as an evil tool in a way that Chazal (nearly certainly) did not foresee?