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Funny that your suggestion involves limiting things that are inherently mutar (like going to a pizza shop). How about a healthy alternative? In what universe will closing a pizza shop early on its busiest night cause a/t but more problems? (someone else will open instead with more publicity and a whole lot of politics.)
Health – What have you seen with your own eyes? A smoker that got a heart attack? What does that prove? Did you even understand anything I said?
Health – Proving causation, is much, much more difficult than correlation. Your “facts” say that the act of smoking CAUSES heart disease. I would like to know what you base your opinion on. Please explain the methodology of the study done, or help me find out. I am genuinely curious. Smoking tends to affect one’s health badly, and can cause health problems, some of which can lead to death. Just not as many deaths as the government would like you to believe.
Health – It is an undisputed fact that smokers have a higher incidence of heart disease. The question is A – How much higher, and B – How much of that is from the act of smoking and not an underlying cause of both. Either way, to make a statement that “x” amount of people die from “smoking-related” diseases when the majority of those are not smokers, is technically true but very tricky.
Brony – here we believe in Godly selection. The question is whether doing something that can have deadly reprecussions but likely will not – is that more like jumping in front of a bus or more like speeding, overeating, not exercising, skiing, etc.? I think the answer turns on the statistical probability of death from that behavior, prior to the life expectancy of an otherwise similar person who doesn’t do that behavior. The answer in smoking’s case is difficult to find. Heart disease, which smoking increases the risk of, is also common among non-smokers. If a 675 lb smoker dies at age 30 from a heart attack, statistically this is a “smoking-related” disease. Also, a correlation between smoking and heart disease may exist because of the personality tendency of smokers, and circumstances that encourage smoking, may also cause heart disease, so the act of smoking may not do much to increase the already present risks.
The high percentage of death “from smoking” is heart disease. The other diseases, which likely have a stronger link to the act of smoking, are far less likely to cause death to an individual smoker. When an individual chooses to smoke, the question is how likely is it for him. The gov. and medical community are far more concerned with society than individuals, and lowering costs as a whole. Therefore IMHO the info you get about smoking is “doctored” (no pun intended) to promote no smoking, reinforcing the (generally) psychosomatic chest pains one can hear about from many bystanders. Don’t get me wrong – no one is lying, but it is
very easy to disguise truth within rhetoric and relative numbers.
Anecdotal as in subjective and non-representative in regard to a purportedly objective assertion has nothing to do with the laws of evidence and hearsay. The laws of evidence are to limit the jury’s exposure to prejudicial evidence that has little probative value. Anecdotal evidence as I meant it and understood it, and how I think most people would, is in regard to a scientific study, where anecdotal evidence doesn’t say much, if anything. An example of this would be: my great grandfather smoked and lived until 110 when he died from being hit by a drunk driver. This is evidence that smoking is less likely to kill you than a drunk driver. Obviously, one person’s experience a rule makes not. This is anecdotal evidence.
Wikipedia, while useful, is not a particularly credible or persuasive source. It reminds me (l’havdil) of R’ Ribiat’s 4 volume hilchos shabbos set. Comprehensive, somewhat organized, innaccurate as to the bottom line, and a goldmine of additional sources.
IMO Christie is correct in bringing Toeva Marriage on the table in NJ. If I lived in a Jewish Monarchy, I would want halacha to be the rule of the land, and if not, I’d want the Government’s definition of morality to err on the side of (serious) civil liberties. Otherwise, my beliefs may be next (Milah, Shechita, etc.). My PERSONAL moral belief is that the act of being Toeva is repugnant, and look forward to the time when we’ll have a Sanhedrin which can enforce dinei nefashos (although then there won’t be anyone to enforce it on…) very soon.
yoyo – the smell is bad for your health? (Although studies have shown that constant or repeated exposure to the smell may have a slight impact, we’re discussing a one-time story.) What if the same person would just smell like roses, and you couldn’t stand roses? Same story? There are two issues here: one of smell tolerance, and one of a person’s choice to enjoy him/herself with a pastime that runs a moderate risk of causing serious illness to themselves. Genuine Mussar given out of love and care wouldn’t bother me much (though I’ve rarely seen that type), but saying it smells doesn’t justify treating someone disrespectfully. If someone lights up indoors that’s an entirely different story, which we’re not discussing now.
Your anecdote amuses me. Why you think your admittedly subjective opinion is “non-anecdotal” eludes me (not that I claim to be objective or an authority on the matter). I’m just voicing my opinion. I agree that there may an intellectual experience or two out there in Israel, although for English speakers I believe one can find more such suitable experiences in the US. Yes one can try to rank such seminaries but IMO there are more relevant ways to rank seminaries which take into account the reasons the vast majority of the people which attend them value.
Although I believe that you believe your story, the way you’ve “read”, “analyzed”, and “comprehensively compiled” your beliefs as to what I wrote, said, or intended, makes me doubt the intellectual quality of the process you espouse.
I can defend my other posts in other threads at length but don’t have the time or energy right now.
The appalling attitude of anti-smokers is much more obvious and speaks to a much deeper problem. If you don’t like the smell of something that’s okay. Just recognize that you are not the only person in the world. If you didn’t like the smell of hot dogs and someone was eating one near you what would you do? Nothing. Therefore the smell issue is a non-issue.
Being near a smoker outdoors occasionally is not significantly detrimental to your health. Period.
The question is, does your definition of taste, plus your extreme definition of right or wrong give you a right to judge, condemn, vilify, demonize, and control others? I say no.
OoM – “He also thinks yeshiva bochurim aren’t competent enough to go to college, but they shouldn’t take the SAT.” Wrong and wrong. I said “few” Yeshiva guys are competent enough to make it in “real” college, and I said I took the SAT and it didn’t do a/t for me even though I did well, and the Yeshivish system of transferring credits doesn’t require taking the SAT.
As far as seminaries being intellectual vs. academic, that is precisely the point I was trying to make. Being studious, having many classes that are soooooooo amazing, even being tested repeatedly and in depth on what you learn, does not speak to the intellectual quality of what you learn. True, my subjective opinion is based on anecdotal evidence (of which I’m not sharing that much – deal with it). Is anyone here spouting anything remotely objective on this topic?
The primary motivation of a girl going to Israel for a year has little to do with the “intellectual studies” (which can’t possibly be done locally…) and likely much more to do with independence, growing up, and having fun. Rank that.
Academic and intellectual, while being related concepts, are entirely different things. Either way, my point wasn’t that it’s futile or even unimportant to know how intellectual a seminary is, rather, the reason for attending seminary has little to do with the intellectual aspect of the experience, as proven by the poor quality available overall of the aforementioned intellectual experience.
I said “not the most helpful” not “futile”. Who’s speculating here? Do you always ask bad questions, answer them falsely, then proceed to argue with your false understanding, or is it just this once?
Asking about the most intellectual seminaries is like asking about the skinniest obese girls or the most honest members of congress; while there may be a way to rank them, that is not the most helpful criterion to use.
Health – there is a disconnect between our understanding of “statistics”. Let’s take lung cancer for example. The way I’d imagine a study done is either to measure incidence in a representative sample, or take the total population/population with lung cancer, and withing population with lung cancer smokers/non-smokers. Provided that responsible scientists or statisticians are working on it, the results are indisputable.
My rough math, which took some digging on the CDC’s website, estimates the following incidence: 1/7200 incidence of lung cancer in non-smokers, smokers have 1/360 incidence of lung cancer. What does the CDC and its literature, and all healthcare professionals say? 20 times more likely. This number is 100% true, but it is derived from the two incidence rates, and phrased in the way to maximize emotional import. That is problematic. There is someone poring over all the results of the studies, and figuring out how to use the numbers to most demonize smoking.
Reb Aharon opened BMG for the elite few, the future leaders of k’lal yisroel – not anyone with a pulse and white shirt. That was Reb Shneur (the pulse part, the white shirt part came slightly later, likely as a result). He had his reasons I’m sure (good ones – likely involving assimilation). But that way is the chiddush. The way klal yisroel was always (since we entered Israel the first time) set up was that the vast majority of men worked, while the elite few led. See rashi on Ish echad me’elef matzasi in Koheles. IMO if Reb Shneur were around today he would encourage more people to go out to work. Either way, a man has a responsibility to work and support his family. If he has a holy family (that allows him to shirk his responsibility in favor of doing holy, important things), and is successful at learning, there is nothing greater, as long as he remembers that he must sacrifice, and that his wife can force him at any time to live up to his promises. As far as taking Gov. handouts – if the family is so willing to sacrifice their dignity in order to learn – good for them. As long as they remember that it is wrong to take – even gifts that are intended for them – let alone programs. Sonei matanos yichyeh – means to hate money/gifts you don’t earn. You don’t earn foodstamps. The only way to justify it is if you love learning more than you hate taking – and that should be a high standard.
Health – to clarify further – I don’t think the methodology of the studies are flawed. What bothers me is after the raw numbers come back, there’s someone sitting there thinking, how can I portray these true numbers in the way that most demonizes smoking? The reason the CDC (center for disease control or the gov.) does this is because “smoking is the #1 preventable cause of death in society” so they are on a mission to demonize it. I don’t like being manipulated by anyone, especially a power figure who thinks they’re acting in my benefit. I’ll decide for myself, thank you. Don’t give me averages over medians, because they are lower. Don’t do tricky things like saying – smoking increases the risk of lung cancer by 2000%. Lung Cancer is one of the deadliest and most common cancers. Every year x amount of people die from cancer. Or saying something like – Every year x amount of people die from smoking-related diseases, when the large majority of people who die from heart attack and stroke are not smokers. When calculating how many years a smoker loses on average, don’t use the life expectancy numbers unless you also include all smokers who surpassed that number. Little tricky things, and they drive me crazy.
Health – Toi got it. Not very difficult. Oomis – you left out the word IF in your quote. Clearly you HATE smoking. Clearly I don’t. Let’s get past that. People who smoke, smoke indoors, in front of their children? Perhaps some do. Most people I know, don’t. As far as smoking indoors next to adults, if the area is not designated as a smoking area, it is obnoxious to smoke w/o asking if it’s ok. See, we agree on s/t. As far as your extreme hatred is concerned, IMO you lose all credibility in this area.
What I was saying is that while the studies done are neutral, the way the results are reported are biased toward not smoking. True, smoking is unhealthy. That is why I quit. That does not mean that the way studies are reported should be biased toward whatever makes smoking sound so deadly. The result of that is some of the extreme opinions we’ve seen here. If no one regularly smokes indoors near you, your exposure to secondhand smoke is so minimal, that describing their actions as “depraved indifference” is as silly as it is extreme.
Someone here wrote that a smoker is more than 50% likely to die from smoking. Really? Prove it. What study are you citing? Does this include a 96 yo smoker who has a heart attack?
My point with the lung cancer numbers is just to show a) there’s a significant risk w/o smoking, and b) if you and 178 other people smoke, odds are none of you will get lung cancer.
I have never met a person who quit smoking who didn’t truly want and decide to quit; and I have never (yet) met a smoker who truly wanted to and decided to quit, and then failed.
I don’t smoke (anymore) BTW.
I don’t appreciate the manipulation of numbers that anti-smokers use to try to influence mass behavior, even if some of it is true.
A correlation between a behavior and a higher incidence rate of a disease does not prove that the behavior causes the disease.
A smoker is more statistically likely to get heart disease.
That does not mean that a smoker who got heart disease got it from smoking – heart disease is common among non-smokers. Same with stroke.
Another point – “Smokers are 20 times more likely to get lung cancer,” vs. “Non-Smokers have a 1/7200 incidence of lung cancer, smokers have 1/360 incidence of lung cancer” The CDC said the first one, I said the second one (based on info from the CDC). Both are true.
I can turn it around. Someone who quits smoking has an 80% likelihood of gaining weight. Perhaps it is healthier to smoke.
Remember, figures can’t lie but liars can figure. Trying to maximize the emotional effect by being tricky, just because it is the most practical way to lower healthcare spending is wrong. Again, the incidence rate I posted is 100% neutral, and 100% agenda free. Stating the percentage increase without stating the original numbers, is a big fat manipulative lie.
Health – “Most [kollel guys] could not [get a job that pays enough] -No matter what you say”
What about what I say? There’s always opening your own yeshiva, hiring magidei shiurim whose shvers pay their salaries (it’s worth the kavod), charging tuition, and then fundraising on top of that. That doesn’t take much (non-political) talent. Also, you could build houses. Wait…you could build your own yeshiva building, buy it from yourself at a profit, sell the naming rights, fundraise for the inflated cost of the building which was covered by the naming rights, use the cash to open a girls’ elementary school, sell the name to that, hire (female) teachers at 6 dollars an hour, and collect your tuition in cash, so that your institutions could remain non-profit and you still qualify for programs.
See – it’s easy to find real honest work. My suggestions should be profitable. Worst comes to worst, you can always turn to laundering tax-deductible donations.
I would say most kollel guys are at least capable of this, wouldn’t you?
I think there must be a distinction made between informing and controlling. It seems (though I didn’t read the article) that the message was that men should have more information about the halachos of tznius, and if they would, there would be less violations of their women and daughters. While this is an interesting point, this should not be confused with control. A subtle yet most important distinction must be drawn (when dealing with teens and adults) between “I don’t let” and “I believe your behavior is wrong”. Especially in a spousal relationship. Control is sickness and abuse. Additionally a successful parent and a respectful husband who says “I believe your behavior is wrong”, will be much more successful in positively influencing behavior. The pervasive mentality of control one can witness among many frum parents is one of, if not the, largest factor in the kids at risk. One who tries to control other adults’ behavior is foolish and arrogant, and should get counseling or the like.
I have never met a person who quit smoking who didn’t truly want and decide to quit; and I have never (yet) met a smoker who truly wanted to and decided to quit, and then failed.
As an aside, eating a lot (i.e. getting obese) is far less pleasant to me than smoking, and more likely to cause a premature death (I believe fewer than 1 in 12 smokers die before their average life expectancy directly due to smoking – don’t all jump on me at once… I said I believe. I would love more information on this question. Maybe they don’t publish this part of studies). I don’t smoke (anymore) BTW. I just don’t appreciate the manipulation of numbers that anti-smokers use to try to influence mass behavior, even if some of it is true. E.g. “Smokers are 20 times more likely to get lung cancer,” vs. “Non-Smokers have a 1/7200 incidence of lung cancer, smokers have 1/360 incidence of lung cancer” The CDC said the first one, I said the second one (based on info from the CDC). Both are true. I can even turn it around. Someone who quits smoking has an 80% likelihood of gaining weight. Perhaps it is healthier to smoke. Remember, figures can’t lie but liars can figure. Trying to maximize the emotional effect by being tricky, just because it is the most practical way to lower healthcare spending is wrong. Again, the incidence rate I posted is 100% neutral, and 100% agenda free. Stating the percentage increase without stating the original numbers, is a big fat manipulative lie.
Inherently insulting things should be banned. It is easier to ban thin-skinned people than it is to ban all the things that insult them. If I decide the name “theyeshivaworld” offends me (which it does a little), should it be changed?
Retarted just means slow. First of all this means Popa himself may be (gasp) retarted. Second of all, it isn’t an offensive way of describing a negative attribute, just a negative attribute. If people get insulted from non-insults, that’s their own prerogative.
75% of the 47% of the graduating class that got private law firm jobs, or about 35% of the total class, make 75k or more according to anti-law school #s. I spent much of the the last two hours reading interesting articles on the subject.
Figures don’t lie but liars can figure. Whichever side of the statistics you look at (the law schools’ numbers vs. the failure indebted graduates’ numbers) is full of lies. There are more graduates from non-top-tier schools than top-tier schools. Even St. John’s, ranked 95th in the country, with the most anti-law school adjusted numbers, has 46.63 percent job placement #s in private firms. 25/50/75 percentile salary is 75k/150k/160k. Being that St. John’s offers large scholarships if one does well on the LSAT, one can theoretically have a very cheap Law School education, be in the better half of the class in not such a great school and make good money. The numbers given are the 9 month #s as adjusted by the law school transparency website.
Popa – most law degrees are useless? care to elaborate?
It all depends on the location of the sun.
God runs the world. God feeds the world. The Maharal writes that in a utopian world (or like Adam Harishon kodem hachet) there would be no need to work at all because of the perfect level of Bitachon in the world. Hishtadlus (which in its intellectual essence is k’fira) is only a necessary evil to the degree in which we have lost our Bitachon, and should be used temporarily with the goal of strengthening our Bitachon in mind. That said,the main question of ideology is whether college is a necessary Hishtadlus toward making a living. There is no objective answer to that because it depends on the level of subjective Bitachon and the amount of money needed. Yeshivos and BYs focus on trying to increase the level of Bitachon in their students (as they should). Whether people that say they have Bitachon are being truly intellectually honest and consistent throughout their lives is a different question.
Based on the lack of subjective details in the question, I assumed the question was an objective one. To me, the most defining objective value of attending college, is what you can do with the degree (quality of the education is a factor too but because the two issues are so highly correlated, and because many don’t care, I focused on the value of the degree). Additionally, you need to stop quoting me out of context. Someone before me was saying that no one heard of Touro. A degree from YU is objectively more valuable than a degree from Touro. This is a huge pro for YU. This does not mean that one should go there. You have a choice in life: either jump to conclusions and not get insulted easily, or not jump to conclusions and be sensitive (obviously the ideal is don’t jump and don’t be sensitve but that’d be asking for too much). When you offend yourself by jumping to too many conclusions, you look foolish and only hurt yourself.
Do you need preexisting knowledge? No. Does it help? Yes. I considered myself to be at a large disadvantage to my classmates in graduate school, and I was at least average in my Yeshivah class both in intelligence and in secular knowledge.
I’m not specifically sure as to the technicalities, especially as it pertains to Touro; Where I went, b/c I used Yeshiva credits, I didn’t even need to verify my high school diploma or transcripts…
When ur transferring yeshiva credits the school is very focused on money. It is a business after all. I know many people who transferred and none of those who had a benefit from taking the SATs. I wasn’t saying not to take them just that they may not do a/t.
I never said to go there. You read what you want to read. The question seemed to be which degree or secular education is better. The OP never mentioned where they live, or if they’re also working or attending Yeshiva or transferring credits. They also didn’t mention if they plan on going into this mystery field in which Touro is/was “#1” in the country. (Provided you are telling the truth, if it is a real field, it must be very new. If ivy league and other top schools offer the same classes, they attract the most talented students and professors and offer the best connections and highest salaries etc.) Either way, you are free to fool yourself about the prestige of Touro. No one is stopping you. I did choose where I went and it was neither. Personally I don’t think the Hashkafos of your Professors in ANY college are necessarily correct (to put it mildly).
Inherently learning is the most productive thing in the world (to me, to you, and most importantly to Chazal when explaining God’s will). Ergo, healthy people, when learning, should feel enormous accomplishment, satisfaction, and happiness. Sadly, the recent generation (myself included) is not that healthy. Despite actual accomplishment we don’t feel it enough. Additionally, the values of Chazal May not be ingrained enough in us. Your Shabbos Guests seemed to exemplify this latter idea.
When you transfer college credits to an institution (as one would do when attending e.g. Touro and using some Yeshiva/Seminary credits) SATs are not in any way required. When the college you are attending has some standards they may care what it was but nearly all the colleges taking those credits don’t. If you pay and have a pulse, you may attend Touro. I refer to SATs in general, and use what seems to be the easiest way to describe the plural form. I did score in the 98th percentile on the Verbal section of the (old) SATs.
Health – My friend with the ironic name: The reason NIRC was never mentioned is b/c it was never asked about. I apologize for mentioning the scandal. Although I don’t agree with you that it is LH or MSR, it wasn’t a crucial part of my point which was namely that YU is clearly, without a shadow of a doubt, a much, much, more academically respected institution in the SECULAR world, than Touro. That said, personally if I had to choose between them, likely, I’d choose Touro. Not that it matters…
I did well on the SATs but it was a waste of time and money. If you want to use Yeshiva credits it won’t do a/t for you.
If Agudah is bankrupted who wins? Either way, are you saying the truth? Who do I believe? What does GOD want? My answer is I still trust the Rabbonim to answer these profoundly religious moral dilemmas. Who else?
Heter or not, few from Yeshiva/ish high school and BM backgrounds are competent enough in secular studies to make it in real college. The question then is what about a BTL or the like (Frum and/or community college and/or fraudulent)? What are the statistics of those? I would think lower than the average non-graduate in the secular world.
If a person is happy, then they must have accomplished something (excluding mind-altering substances). The more one accomplishes, the happier (in theory) one gets. Problems arise when one’s personal recognition of accomplishment are skewed. This can apply to shabbos guests and to children equally.
With such serious issues, in which often there are very legitimate reasons for not publicizing things, and for not taking specific steps that any idiot could think of (if you need examples just look at some posts here), the questions are who do you trust? and who knows better? and the answer is, for me, clearly, without hesitation, first my personal Rav, then the consensus of Rabbonim. Are there problems? sure. Who has the solutions? Bright people, that dedicate their lives to Klal Yisroel, know Halachah, won’t hesitate to do what’s right, and have the capability to PRUDENTLY do what is necessary. Are there exceptions among Rabbonim? sure. Is the world perfect? No. If you want to name the entity that caused everything, I can do that for you – GOD. Do Teshuvah, talk to your Rabbi, stick your nose into something productive, and fewer children will be molested. Guaranteed.
The Supreme Court was discussing something much more self-evident than cheating. The question here is twofold: are you doing something you expressly said or implied you wouldn’t and therefore lying? And secondly are you gaining an unfair advantage and therefore stealing…
Health – Frankly this is not Touro bashing. This is neutral. If you need a degree that is just that – a degree – go to Touro. The degree you get is not academically respected though. Yes a Jew may hire you, and yes god runs the world and you can be the next CEO of Microsoft for all I care, the degree, RELATIVE to other schools is not great. YU is decent. This is the perception out there. US news rankings proves this point. In the secular world the only things that stand out about Touro are not good things. All things being equal, if two people are applying for a job and the only difference is where they got their degree, Touro is going to lose that fight. And the scandal doesn’t help.
I never went to YU. You are assuming that me saying the value of THE DEGREE is diminished, means that I am attacking or indicting the school or its administrators for something. This is a leap that it would seem only you took. That means it is only your problem. (That does not mean it’s your only problem…) The fact that the value is diminished came up in the context of conversation that no one ever heard of Touro. I was pointing out that Touro is famous but not for a good thing, thereby negatively affecting their reputation and the value of their degree. I have done some research on this issue and the reputation of Touro took a hit. Regardless of who did or didn’t do anything. I never attacked anyone. You did.
until chatzos – not l’vatala. might not count for shacharis though. krias shma is a priority though. one should not miss the second zman krias shma. if one must, one may say it in bed w/o washing ones hands.
First of all – I did have a Yeshiva education. Second of all I did learn Chofetz Chaim. Third of all the reason I bruoght it up was because the question is as to the VALUE of a degree from each institution (I’m assuming that’s why most people go to college.) Fourth of all the reason why there are regional as opposed to national is because someone like you would go ballistic if Touro was ranked e.g. 1375th in the country. Also Touro wouldn’t like it because people like the one who asked this question would have too much of a definitive answer. Lastly you misquoted me. I didn’t say to deal with the FACT that what I said is not LH I told you to deal with the reality that Touro’s bad name affect the value of their degrees in this world. It is not “Health”y to be in so much denial. To summarize the Lashon Hora if there is a Toeles(which there is)and not publicizing anything (which I didn’t) and not discussing individuals (which I didn’t) it is not LH. Motzi Shem Ra is classically referring to something which is untrue. Just chill out.
When something is all over the news, one may repeat it. I didn’t speak of any individuals and didn’t even say they did it. I said they are famous for getting caught. This is a fact I first heard on the radio. One of the biggest academic scandals (in terms of the allegations, convictions, and airtime) in recent history in the secular world. Deal with it.
I didn’t say Touro was responsible – I said they’re famous for the scandal. That lowers the respect for a Touro degree in the world. Calling someone not frum for stating a fact that is not in any way Lashon Hora, even if it unpleasant for you to hear it, is silly. Furthermore, any undergraduate degree is significantly less valuable than it used to be. That was my point. If the career you choose happens to assign a disproportionate value (relative to other careers) to an undergraduate degree – good for you.