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Whoa! This thread has really exploded since I last commented on Motzaei Shabbos!
@MoshiachChat –in regard to comment #1411332 (https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/mesichists-explained-by-chabadshlucha/page/7
Regarding the two Rambams discussed –
In regards to Mosheach:
????? ????? ??????? ??? ??
? ??? ?? ????? ?? ??, ?? ????—????? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ????, ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ????. ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????, ????? “??? ???????? ??????, ????? ??? ????? ?????—?? ?? ??: ?? ???, ?????”
In regards to to Nevuah Sheker:
????? ????? ????? ??? ?
? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???, ??? ??? ????? ????–????? ???? ???? ???: ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???, ????? ?? ????–???? ????. ?? ????, ?????? ????? ???? ????? ?????.You had responded to the explanations in the diyukim raised – in summary – that the Rambam still applies to someone dead and that there is Chidush Halacha of a diff regarding “dying” and killed”. I claimed there is practical simplistic reason why the Rambam spelled out “killed” rather then “die”, and there is no significance in killed over dying :
You responded
“Forgive me, but I fail to see where u have rebutted what I said. ….but I’ve already said that the Rebbe said the Rambam is bediuk”Firstly, here is another example of narrow minded thinking; the very concept of “diyukim in the Rambam has NOTHING to do with the “Rebbe”. And if the Rebbe is the only one, then anyone else has no obligations to follow, as the Torah and Rambam has been around for hundreds of years.
In fact, I come from a place where Diyukim in Rambam are heavy emphasized and taught. However, the difference is, it’s also taught what, HOW and when to apply diyukim – just because you have “diyuk” “x” does not mean you can conclude Halchah “y”. You don’t base Halcha on “diyukim” alone, you need proof from diff sources and thus can you apply and fit into the Rambam. NO ONE would EVER be Mattir an Agunah on such “diyukim” – so why is the Ikrei Emunah different?
I will hence quote the Rebbe Rashab which actually befits this very kind of mindset of such Chidushim:
?????? ?? ????? P 58
??? ????? ??? ???’ ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???’ ??????? ??????? ???’ ??”? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ??? – ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???’ ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??”? ???? ??????? ??? – ??? ????? ???? ?????.The Rogtachover used to say when one would say such “chiddushim” and then stubbornly say if you don’t agree nu “????” up the chiddush :
” ?? ?? ??? ??? ???????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ”
cont-
Gun,
“but about the rebbe not being known as a gadol btorah like Rav Aharon kotler. You need to first learn the 39 volumes of the lubavitcher rebbes chidushei ..”With all due respect to the rebbe who was a Gadol b’Torah, while I did not learn All 39 vol, I did see enough to have somewhat of an indication. Sorry, but no comparison in Torah . All you need is to read both works with an open minded decision. I won’t say the Rebbe didn’t have other qualities that surpassed Rav Ahron Kotler, but Gadlus and Gaones beToras niglah is not one of them. Sorry.
???” ?????? ??? ????”
MC,
Firstly, as i have pointed out, it is utterly silly and naive to base something as sensitive as such of an issue on a few diyukim in a Rambam. This subject is not for ????? ??????? – only true Gadolie vPoskei hador can Maybe have a say.
Just to prove how these diyukim hold no water i will respond.
??? ?? ????? ?? ??,
Means simply the very same as dying.
The Rambam OBVIOUSLY didn’t have to spell out somethings so silly that ONLY nowadays Meshicists can capably say. If you are dead – you are done. Its common sense. No need to spell it out.Now, why then did he have to write out:
?? ????— the answer is simple: yes, being a martyr dying in war or in process of mosheach, common folks did associate with dying ?? ????”? and thus another step towards the final step and indeed fit for mosheach (In fact, it does say that it is part of the process, though l ???? ?? ????, ???”?”. ) that is why he has to spell it out. But “dead” ????”?!
….. ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????’ ???? ????On the same note, when Shabtai Tzvi was arrested the Gadolim advised that he should not be persecuted, as that will make matters worse etc, explanation was exactly as above.
Instead he was given a choice to convert to Islam. Once he converted the truth was finally clear to all. And even with that, he still had sort of a following believing he will reappear and explained his conversion as a process of tikun Al Pi Kabbalah etc.
asking a mute boy to say Moideh Ani and the boy was able to say it.”
What is the point?Hmm I recall some religion saying the exact same just with blind”…
Judaism isn’t really about miracles…“Lubavitchers from awhile ago which illustrate my point: a) one Lubavitcher telling another that he must remember that one day he will have to stand in front of the Rebbe and give din ve’cheshbon; b) a Lubavitcher explanation of a certain Chabadnik being able to risk his life for Yiddishkeit: his total mesirus to do the will of the Rebbe.”
Mdd,
FYI – Many Chassidim once-upon-a-time had that very mentality – it is not subject to Chabad.
I once read in a classic…: a chasid (not chabad – and who obviously wasn’t that much of a Yiras Shomayim) said he is afraid to sin – for Hashem will reveal it to the Rebbe !Ubiq/Chochom
“It is stated in Rambam somewhere – I’m not sure exactly where, but you could ask anyone – that it is the obligation of every Jew to fervently believe that their teacher is Moshiach.”
“somewhere – I’m not sure exactly where”
HUH!? So you are basing the very core YESOD on Yehadut on something you haven’t even bothered to look up, or don’t exactly know where!?!!!
I rest my case…
Ubiq – I seriously think we are wasting our time – besides the fact that NO such Rambam exists!
(At least in Yad and most of haMorah – from what I have studied)
Rso,
“Chabadshlucha wrote: “Re olam habo: there’s a story of a chossid who entered into yechidus…
(conclusion of story) But, the chossid continues, I would never exchange my gehennom for their gan Eden.”(I wonder whether I will ever get used to this story and fail to get angry at the implication…)
I know chassidim of all types and I have cousins who belong to Satmar, Vizhnitz, Belz …etc”
In defense of CShlucha – who is just repeating a story that has circulated over 150 years ago. The story has much of a deeper meaning than how you understood it and, as I have pointed out, it was said in Kotzk as well (perhaps with a little diff twist ).
If you would really understand what the differences of how Kotzk chassidim and to some degree Chabad was (note, WAS) – what they stood for, what and how they utilized their Rebbe, what the Rebbe demanded from them, (compared to generally others) then the story really refelects the essence and core of their beliefs and philosophy.
Unlike other Chasidus – if you came to the Rebbe with any Gashmiyus bracha requests, you were told to find a diff Rebbe – more than once did the Kotzker say: “what am I? a “doctor” ? All I want is a couple of Chassidim than I can go out and shout on top of the rooftops ‘Hashem Hu Elokim”!That is basically the message of the story.
on the same note, I once read that the Tzemach Tzedek (or vice versa) sent a message to the Kotzker, Rav ‘Menachem Mendel’ something to the effect “Menachem Mendel” leGzerah Shuvah”…
In any case, all these are absolutely irrelevant nowadays!
ChabadShlucha, I have to say, although a little confused and IMHO taking in too much info, is doing a fine job – despite being “Nushim Kalos” – studying, meaning well, understanding and trying to understand – and some are deep concepts…
All I can say, although I do not agree with many of her posts – you should all be Zocha to have such daughters with the energy , sincerity and enthusiasm and the willing to understand and study…even the “nitty-gritty” stuff.
Have a Gut Shabbos!
MoshiachChat,
Based on your take and many others – You claim the Rebbe was a Navi and, somehow had sort of a Nevuah/revelation about the revealing of Moshiach in THIS generation (and that he will be the one) etc.
Well, I will just quote two Rambams and let everyone do the math:
In regards to Mosheach:
????? ????? ??????? ??? ??
? ??? ?? ????? ?? ??, ?? ????—????? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ????, ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ????. ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????, ????? “??? ???????? ??????, ????? ??? ????? ?????—?? ?? ??: ?? ???, ?????”In regards to to Nevuah Sheker:
????? ????? ????? ??? ?
? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???, ??? ??? ????? ????–????? ???? ???? ???: ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???, ????? ?? ????–???? ????. ?? ????, ?????? ????? ???? ????? ?????.
Well, I guess that Meshichist camp was left with no other choice but to disclaim the fact that he was Nistalek…i.e. Niftar…
CS,
” (I watched a video of his descendent testifying to the above. That the Gra saw the Alter Rebbe through the keyhole of his door in Vilna, and realized there was so much kedusha there that he would have become a chossid, ”Do you really believe everything someone says on a video – only because he claims to be a descendant?
I have read plenty of material on that issue, good and bad– sorry, but this is utterly nonsense. The Gra never bothered seeing the Alter Rebbe, nor did he have any issues with emotions. Meaning, if he felt there is real kedusha,he would have no issue facing it.
You are not speaking about some nowaday Rosh Yeshiva!The gra when he finished writing his pirush on Shir hashrim, he stated to his talmid: he has completed all torah, niglah and nistar to the level of keSinusei m’Sinai, he has only one question in nistar, which he would travel to the other end of the world to find an answer…Do you really think he couldn’t face the truth?!
Anyways, i’m sure in Chabad they think the Gra was no comparison to the Alter Rebbe, and had they met he would surely convinced him…
Sechel,
“Re olam habo: there’s a story of a chossid who entered into yechidus with either the Rebbe Rashab”
Interesting, the very same story is told regarding ‘Kotzk’ in comparison to other Chasidus….just without mentioning it to the Rebbe .
Rso
“lubavitch rebbe had smicho from the Rogatchover Gaon. And they also corresponded. ”In regards to ‘correspondence’ I don’t know what difference it makes, anyone familiar with the Rogatchovers works knows that he “corresponded” with anyone who wrote, (especially f you were a decendent of the Alter Rebbe – as he was Chabad, ,, though of the Kapuster, obviously he didn’t go for the seven does) as long as it fitted into his postcard size reply page.
However, if you would to say the “titles” addressed were somehow on the high caliber, then that would be something, knowing the Rogatchover… And I don’t think that is the case…
“The gra was fed cnn style news about the Alter Rebbe: he was told how the head of the “Katt” was seen eating on Tisha bav with his chassidim with a female on his lap. His informers conveniently forgot to mention that Tisha bav the year of the incident had fallen out on Shabbos, so it was nidche, and the female was his 3 year old granddaughter…”
I know that is what they say and it is quoted in Sefer Bais Rebbi, however do you really think the entire Cherem was only based on that so-called fact? Do you think that was the ultimate factor.
Even according to the above mentioned ??? ??? there was the issue with Chasidus of Kalisk, who even Chabad considered them as Apikorsim , which was another factor. (It is mentioned that there was a debate in the town of Shklov, and they lost the debate due to the above chasidim – they were extremists – similar to nowadays Meshichists’)
In fact, the ones familiar with the shitas Talmidie haGRA have a total different story, they say the hisnagdus was not what people think it is. It went way beyond that and, it is really based on the core of Kaballistic yesodos in Emunah .
Chbad,
“The other was that on the one hand the neshama is a nivra, but we learn that at it’s core, it’s one with Hashem. I wanted to understand how we experience that…”
A quick comment, unless I’m missing something, isn’t this covered in Tanya Ageres haTeshuva ch 5 or 4. Look up how he explains the verse of ???? ????? ???’ ???? ????..
Sechel,
“He also wants us to fulfill the ultimate purpose of creation, Yemos Hamoshiach”The Rambam nor anyone else mentions that He wants US to fulfil that purpose. If anything it’s the other way around. The ultimate purpose of ???? is that in itself that we should be able to learn etc.
As stated in Rambam Ch 9 of Hilchos Teshuva:
??”?
????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?????. ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???. ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? {?? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?’ ???Sechel,
“As a Lubavitcher male, I have never heard these diyukim in Rambam from any respected figure in a Yeshiva”
FYI – it has indeed been circulating in all Chabad for YEARS . Don’t blame Shlucha – she is repeating what she actually heard, and so have I heard the very same “diyukim” — many times.
Is Rav SD Wolpo respected enough?!
Yes, he published an entire book on this Mosheach subject..(I received it once from a Sholiach in Israel)
Cont. – as the above quote – for all that want to see the words of the Mabit, here is the link:
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14000&st=&pgnum=603
Chabd,
“it says Yilchom- as in present ongoing tense”
Yes. I know that is how all Meshichists try to imply the pshat as to fit into their agenda.
However, ?? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? applies to the last conditions of bes Hamikdash as Vadai” – NOT on the above “chezkas” Chezkas needs to be accomplished in fully as in ????? ????.
What amazes me is how a highly sensitive issue like Mosheach can be decided by a few individuals and “kvetches/twists” in a Rambam!
An issue like this should have been decided by the true Gadolei V’Poskie Hador.
Just to illustrate how twisted the Pshat is I will quote the MABI”T on Rambam how he understands the Rambam:
???? ??? of the Mabit:
??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? -????? ??????– ??? ?? ????? ????
It says clearly ????? ??????– ??? ?? ????? ???? i.e. that ONLY IF it has been fully accomplished. Case Closed!
Chabad,
“avik there are four conditions to qualify as chezkas Moshiach as per the Rambam:
1) descended from beis Dovid (the Rebbe was)
2) well versed in Torah and toiling in mitzvos like Dovid his father
3) compels all Yisrael to go in the ways of Torah and strengthens it’s breaches
3) fights the wars of Hashem”The first two can be applied to many more Gadolim and is really not relevant. So we will focus on the rest.
I will quote the Rambam in full first:
??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????. ??? ???? ????? ????? ??. ????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????. ????? ?????? ?’. ??? ?? ????? ???? ????.
?? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ?????. ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?’ ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?’ ?????? ??? ???:3) ????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????
Q: Does this apply to the Rebbe’s accomplishments ?
Answer: He certainly does not qualify as per the ????? ????.
????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? does NOT mean creating just a BT movement, it has to be ?? ?????” literal, which means including me and you and ALL Jews. And as we are discussing this, there are MANY Jews including ones that call themselves Charedim, Chassidim, Mitnagdim, etc. that are not within the qualification and category of ???? ?? ????? ????, and I’m not going into the fact of Chilonim.
Thus, by not accomplishing the above, renders the Rebbe unfit as per the above category.
4) ????? ?????? ?’
Well, I don’t see where that has been accomplished in any way. You can try apply anything to that, but anyone with some sense of Pshat knows that is not what the Rambam had in mind.
Daas,
???? ???? ???? ??? ?????”
Can’t we just leave it at that?”Well, if we leave it at that – it will be going ‘’??????? ?????? 🙂
(ask Chabad what that means)In any case, not always doi we apply the Klal of ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? .
There is a known rule of ?’ ????? ???? in ??? ?????? ?????I will quote the highlights:
??? ?????? ?????, ???? ????? 😕
????? ????, ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??????, ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?????:
…..?? ???? ????? ???? ????, ???? ????
….?? ????? ???? ????, ??????
….?? ??? ???? ????? ??????, ???? ???? ?? ????? ?????, ???? ????
….??? ?? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???????.The Tanya does bring Psukim and other Chazal to back up his statement …so we need to see how it may fit into the above.
Rand0m3x,
your quotation in post #1408986 seems to have nothing to do with what you claim it’s talking about.”I won’t quote the entire Rambam, but if you really learn through the Rambam in entire, then yes, the very concept (regarding Nevuah which is to applied here) of just “picking” someone without him having to work on it is “silly”.
Sechel/Chabad:
“@daas yochid @gaon I remember learning, Chet can mean chisaron, meaning for their level, more was expected of them, not that it was an actual aveira.”
Well, I know that is the answer they generally give… However, as I have said, its quiet difficult to recreate the entire Pshat and literal meaning of a Pasuk.
On the other hand, I will give you an answer ‘Al Pi Chasidus :
(Disclaimer, I’m not Chabad ’: ) –Read carefully how The Magid of Mezritch explains the Chet of Avrohom Avinu in Sefer Magid DeVorov L’Yaakov – Ohr Torah” in the ?????? part — ??? ? Read the footnote as well.
Based on that, it is possible to have a Chet no matter which level you are, being that after all you are an immortal Baser V’dam. Though, the Chet is not due m’Zad haNefesh HaChiyuni, rather from the Guf, which can be very well be the way he would interpret “chet” mentioned in Kehales as well.
I will quote:http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=19784&st=&pgnum=421
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=19784&st=&pgnum=422????? ????? ?? ???? ?????, ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? — ???? ????? ????? ??? ??????? — ?? ?? ????????’ ??? ??. ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????, ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???,
???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????In the footnotes:
..,??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ]?? ?????? ??????, ??? ????? ?????? ???????? ?????? ?????[— ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? — ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???????? ?????? ????? ???????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ??, ?????????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ????
. …??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ??????? ????? ??? ???, ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??, ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???, ???? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???.
???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? — ?? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???, ?? ?? ????? ????? ????????’ ???? ?? —
????? ???? — ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? — ??????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ????, ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????, ?? ???????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??, ???? ???????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? . . ??? ???[??????
?? — ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? — ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ???????? ????? ???? ????? ???????, ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???.“However, we do have the old klal of the Rambam in sefer haMorah, that logic prevails over simple pshat.
Is there anything logical about saying that in every generation, there is a leader (or leaders) who essentially don’t have bechirah?”
Well, to be honest, and speaking about the Rambam – the Rambam in sefer HaMorah P/2: 32 regarding ????? calls that logic:
“??? ???? ??????”
I will quote it in full:
???? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??????? – ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ???. ??? ???? ???? ???????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??????:
???? ?????? – ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ??????? – ???? ?????? ??’ ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ??????? – ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? – ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ????:
“Go open a Gemara, and look how a classic stira between the gemaras statement and a possuk is resolved. ”
You do realize Tanya is NOT exactly a Gemara and, if it doesn’t fit with Pasuk then it’s sort of a problem. It is rather difficult to recreate a Pasuk to fit in a Chidush of an ?????.
However, we do have the old klal of the Rambam in sefer haMorah, that logic prevails over simple pshat. E.g. where simple pshat contradicts proven science we say a different pshat. So I guess it does depend how well it stands on it’s own….
” As with Dovid hamelech, the gemara clearly testifies that he didn’t soon [sin]”
That is the point – the term “sin” mentioned in that case has to be interpret in a diff way…
Daas,
“??? ???? means there isn’t a tzaddik (who doesn’t sin), not that a lower level tzaddik doesn’t sin.”
Of course that is the pashut pshat in the pasuk. The Tanya is certainly not the simple and logic pshat.
Otherwise it wouldn’t be a “Chidush”.Keep in mind, the definition of Beneni per the Ba’al haTanya is certainly a new created pshat – he is the first one to claim so.
Daas,
As per Tanya, I think he explains that there are two terms of Tzadik one is in terms of Madrega/level and one is on acts i.e. as he explains:??? ??????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ????, ??? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ?????, ??? ????? ??? ????, ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????. ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ??????? ?????? ?????? ????????, ???? ??”?: ?????? ??? ??? ?????, ?????: “???? ??? ?????”, ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??????.
Perhaps that is how he will explain the above.. or its all relatively speaking. How would you explain David HaMelach “sinning” as per Tanya?
MW,
“please explain the taana on Dovid Hamelech when he said “Libi chalal b’kirbi.””
The Tanya explains it:
“???? ?? ???”? ?? ???? ?????? ““when Lubavitchers say “tzaddik”that are usually referring to tzaddik as is defined by Tanya.”
You mean in terms of ???? ????” vs ??????..
Now, is there a difference between a ???? and ‘???? ????’ in terms of the Tanya as well….
Meaning, based on the Tanya’s level of Tzadik (i.e. ??? ??? ?????) is there a possibility of any level of “completeness” above ???? to ???? ?????
Slominer,
While i’m not a pollster, from what I understand, many Sefardim (especially Moroccan’s) relied/rely on the above Chacham Harav Messas ZTL., and based upon his responsum most do go with a Pe’ah Nuchris.
There are definitely many who strictly follow Chacham haRav Ovadia ZTL ruling as well.
“I’m curious. If sheitels are forbidden to be worn, why the big brouhaha to determine if indian sourced hair is an issue of avoda zara, even if it isnt, it is still a sheitel, a human hair one no less.”
APY,
According to many, the very same Anti-Peah Nuchris camp are the ones pushing for the A”Z ….so yes, its another way of calling out all Sheitlach as assur.
No need to go further then here…
“Whether you think/ believe/hold it’s AZ or not”
Isn’t that the prime reason why one would need to know where exactly its from?
Akup,
“Let’s settle this. Find someone who is 200% Litvish – Yeshivish – Misnagdid to the core – stuck in a 19th century world view. Then ask him if someone is “Chasidish”.
The answer will be that Satmar, Lubavitch, Breslov and all the others are clearly “Hasidisch” (even if Chabad is also “Litvish).Interesting how many here are really confused and misinformed on this topic.
Just to give you an example – The Brisker Rav said in regards to the Cherim/ban of the GR”A and talmidim against “Chassidim”, that the ONLY ones that it really pertains to (at least in his times) are:
Chabad and Breslov”.
This was based on a Kabalah he had from Rav Chaim up onto Talmidei haGR”A – understanding what the Cherim was truly based on. (Note, and the Cherim was not really based upon what people think… )Meaning, that all the other ones, in essence, are not truly Chasidim as per the issues of the Gr”a, they just have a couple minhagim etc but not in theory and in essence.
Can someone explain with what and how exactly would you define, let’s say ‘Satmar’, as following the Derech Habesh”t vs a regular Yeshivish Charedi yungerman . And I’m not speaking about Nusach haTfilah, Rabenu Tam Z’man mincha after shkiah, (many think that has anything with “Chasidus” which is by far not), Havarah or Levush.
Note – At the times of the BESH”T all wore the same levush — even Misnagdim wore Shtreimlach. The only difference in levush was that they wore White Bekitches on Shabbos, something that has long been abolished…
Let’s hear details : “x” is Derech haGra and “z” is Derech HaBesh”T
The main confusion, based from I’m reading here, is that people have decided that Shitas haChasidus is based on X Y and Z , and based on that, Chabad or others do/don’t fit into that molding.
So first define what Chasidus is truly all about and THEN see who fits into that mold.
Daas,
“Apikorsus”
You remind me of a story that happened in Brisk, the Gabai once announced a certain Chasid as in Cherem, the reason given “for he spoke ??????????”.
Rav Chaim Brisker who was there asked him, what exactly was the ????? ?????????? He replied the Chasid said that the Rebbe (of Slonim) is as big as ???”?. Rav Chaim answered, had he said Rav Shimon is like the Rebbe..nu! Then yes.
But all he said is that his Rebbe is like Rabbi Shimon, nu he is “Stam a meshugenah’ though not an Apikorus!“Harv Yitzchak Isaac Chaver was the Friendlier Rebbe”
The only ? ???? ?????? ??? I am aware of was a ?????, although a Mekubal and gaon ????? as well – he was a talmid ??????? ???”?… certainly no “Rebbe”
Was there another one!
Here is the above mentioned response to Chacham haRav Ovadia ZTL:
Regarding natural looking wigs that can not be noticed as a ??? ????? and beautifies etc….
He writes the following:?????? ??”? – ??? ???? 138
??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?????, ??? ??? ??????, ??? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ??????, ???? ???? ????, ???? ??????.
???? ??? ???? ????, ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ?????, ?? ????? ?????, ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???–
??? ???? ???, ??? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??????, ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?????, ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????, ?? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ????????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????, ??? ????? ???, ?? ???? ???????? ?? ???? ?????, ????? ??????? ?????, ??? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ???, ??? ????? ???,??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????, ??? ?? ???? ????, ?? ????, ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????, ???? ????? ?? ????, ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? ,
???? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????, ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=26912&st=&pgnum=293
He continues:
Regarding the Minhag and the very above claim that it is after all “provocative” and defeats the purpose of covering ones hair etc:
????’ ?? ?? ????? ????:
???? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ?????, ??????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??, ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? , ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??????. ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??????.??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??????, ??? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ????, ???? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ?? ?? ???????, ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ?????, ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?????, ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???, ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????, ????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ??? ???. ?? ?? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????. ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ? ????? ??? ?? ?????, ??? ??? ???? ??? ???????? ??? ????? ????. ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????, ?? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????, ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????, ?? ????? ??????
???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????, ??????? ??? ?? ???? ??????, ??? ???? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????, ?????? ?? ?? ???, ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???, ?? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ??, ???? ????? ???????? ????. ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????, ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?????.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=21253&st=&pgnum=276
Here is a quote of
????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??????, ???? ?? ???????
??? ???? – ??? ?Regarding Matpachat vs Wigs:
???????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?????. ????? ????? ????? ??, ??? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?????. ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ? ??? ????????? ?????? ???. ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??????, ?? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ????, ???. ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???, ???? ???? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ‘????’ – ??????? ????? ?? ????, ??? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?????, ????? ??????.
??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ??????, ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????. ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????????. ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???.
?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??????. ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??????.
????? ?? ?? ?? ?? ???? ‘????? ??? ????????’ ????? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??????, ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ???, ???? ???? ?????, ??????? ??? ??? ?????, ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ????????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??????. ??? ????? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ???????.
Regarding Minhag Yerushalayim and in general, the Minhag of Matpachat:
???? ??? ?????, ??? ???? ????? ?????, ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ?????, ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????. ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????, ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???, ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ???.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=21253&st=&pgnum=269
Slominer,
To answer your question, read the next few posts.
I did some research and happen to have come across the Teshuvot of Hagaon Chacham Harav Shalom Messas ZTL Chief Rabbi of Morocco and Jerusalem. (who was greatly admired by his colleague Chacham harav Ovadia ZTL , despite some differences in Halacha including the above.)“?t seems he didn’t hold that any hair showing was l’chatchilah.
If I recall, many hold the heter of the above Mahram Alshakar only pertains to the side not the head itself i.e. in front.
Here is part of a lengthy Teshuva written by haRav Moshe Sternbuch of the Bedatz Eda Hachredis regarding the above:
– ???? ???? ??”? –
. ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ????”?, ????
??? “???? ????”, ??????? ????? ????????? ??? ?????, ???? ????? ???? ?????, ????? ?? ???
????? ?????? ?”? ??????, ???????? ???????? ?? ?? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????. ???????
?????, ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?????.
???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????, ??? ?????????? ????? ??? ???????
??????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???, ?????? ???? ??????
??”? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????,??? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ?????
????, ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ????? ?? ????, ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???????
????”? ???”?, ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???????, ??”? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ?????
?? ????? ?”?,?????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ???????, ????? ???? ??? ???
??? ?????, ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???
??????“Obviously the Chofetz Chaim was referring to uncovered hair but his words made it clear that the mitzvah of kisui rosh is all about modesty”
Agreed – and “modesty” is determined by Halacha – NOT by ones personal emotions, assumptions, etc.
And Halacha is determined by the words of our founding Poskim – not by Books, stories, Kol Korahs.“(again, it doesn’t matter what their children and grandchildren wear, that is a very weak way to prove anything, we never look at a Gadols children to determine where he held)”
That is precisely the very point of the family coming out with a statement.
Note, these members have their own Chashuva status as well.
????? ??? ???? ????? ??????????? ????”?, ????? ?????? ??? ???? – “??????? ????” ?? ?????? ??”????, ??? ????? ??????????? ????”?, ??? ????”?, ??? ?????:
“???? ????? ????”? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???. ??????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????’, ???? ?? ???? ?? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??”? ????? ?????:
‘??? ??? ??? ?????, ??? ???? ??????, ??? ???? ????? ???????, ??? ??????? ??????? ????’, ??? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???????! ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? – ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????’
“Amazing how dismissive we are of the Chofetz Chaim and other Poskim I mentioned ”
Dancing/ Miri,
FYI,
The dismissiveness is rather how you (or more accurate) qnd your books interpret their words. The Chafetz Chaim is speaking about your OWN natural hair when INTACT. Please do not put any words….
This is my very issue with these books, they are
!???? ???? ????? ??? ?????I have no issue with you or anyone saying we should be ????? and ????? and kol hakovod to you! I admire you and respect you tremendously – you are following your rebbitzen and the books you read, despite the hardships, and hashem should bless you with all the best of nachas and all. BUT…..
Joseph,
If that is not clear enough, here.
???, ??? ????? ??????????? ????”?, ??? ????”?, ??? ?????:
“???? ????? ????”? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???. ??????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????’, ???? ?? ???? ?? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??”? ????? ?????:
‘??? ??? ??? ?????, ??? ???? ??????, ??? ???? ????? ???????, ??? ??????? ??????? ????’, ??? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???????! ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????, ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????’
P.s. ask your rebbitzin to please translate it for you.
Joseph,
Let’s keep it simple, there are two issues here.A) Why did Rav Elyashivs rabunis wear a tichel?
Answer: that was the overall minhag then in Jerusalem at the timeB) why the change of their children ?
I will let YOU do the answering.Hint, read well the comment and quote of the Magen Giborim
Joseph,
Do you read Hebrew?
, ????? ?????? ??? ????, ??? ???? “????? ??”?” ???????? ???? ????”? ???????? ??”?, ????? ??????, ??? ????? ?? ???? ?’ ????? ???????? ???? ??? ????? ?????.
???? ?????:
“??? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????? – ??? ??? ???? ???.
?????, ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????, ?? ?????? ??? ?”? ??????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??????, ???? ????? ?????? ????? – ‘?? ????? ????? – ?????? ?????? ????’?
???? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ???????, ?? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? – ?? ??? ??????, ??? ??? ??? ??????? ???? – ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???, ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ????????.
?? ???? ????? ????? ????, ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? .… ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ????? ???, ????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????, ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???.
Regardless, It is either the minhag of RZA or the minhag of R Elyashiv ZTL, as Rav SZ son married Rav Elyashiv’s daughter
No one is debating whether there is an issue with modesty nowadays. However, the question is WHAT is rendered as modest and what not, and your assessment’s are totally incorrect.
Attractive and beautifying is NOT what the issue is, as quoted by many above.
The issue in concern are the wigs that attract attention either by length or other methods, not by the fact of it’s “natural look” … And as quoted by the above family members of Rav Elyashiv and Rav Shlomo Zalmen ZTL:?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????, ?????? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ?????, ?? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ?????.
??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??, ?? ????? ??????? ?????????? ???? ?????? – ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??, ?? ??? ????? ?????? ????????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ?????? – ?? ???? ?? ??? ????, ??? ??? ???.
??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????, ??? ??????? ?????? ?”?, ?????? ???? ??? ?????, ??? ???? ???; ????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???????.
It’s worthy to note, that both Rav SZ and Rav Elyashiv were from the Yishuv haYashan Perushim of Yerushlayim where all women went covered as per minhag and tekanah. I am sure that was still the overall custom at the times they got married.
In any case, the very fact that BOTH of their daughters and grandchildren indeed went/ go indicates more that anything elsewhere.
???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????!
Personally, I don’t pasken from ANY of these. It’s just to demonstrate how awkward it’s to rely on any of these Kol Korahs, letters, books, stories etc.
However, what we can certainly believe is the following words of
????? ??? ???? ????? ??????????? ????”?, ????? ?????? ??? ????,“??? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????? – ??? ??? ???? ???.”
He continues:
??? ????? ??? ??????, ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ??????, ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ????? – ??? ???? ??? ???? ??????, ?????? ‘?? ??? ????? ??????? ????’ – ?????? ???? ?? ????… ??? ?’????? ?? ????’ – ??? ?????? ????? ??????, ??? ?? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ??. ??? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ????!
??? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???????, ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??????, ???? ??? ??? ‘????? ?? ????’ ??? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ????, ??? “??? ?????? ?????? ????”, ??? ????? ??????? – ??? ?? ??? ???, ??? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?”? ???? ?? ???.
??? ????? ?????, ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ????, ??? ?????? ???? ?? ???. ?? ???????? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ????? – ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??, ??? ????? ????? ?????? ????? – ??????? ?????? ?? ?? ?????? ?? ??. ?? ?????? ?? ??? – ?? ?????? ???? ????, ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???.
??? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?????, ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????, ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???????? ?????, ??? ??? ‘??? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???? – ?? ?????? ?? ?? ???? – ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??…’ ???? ???? ?? ????? ?????. ??????? ?? ?? ?? ????? – ??? ????? ???? ?????, ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ?????. ?? ????? ?????”.
???, ??? ????? ??????????? ????”?, ??? ????”?, ??? ?????:
“???? ????? ????”? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???. ??????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????’, ???? ?? ???? ?? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??”? ????? ?????: ‘??? ??? ??? ?????, ??? ???? ??????, ??? ???? ????? ???????, ??? ??????? ??????? ????’, ??? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???????! ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????, ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????’
?? ???? ???? ???”? ???????? ????”? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??????? ?????? ?????? (???? ??? ?? ????? ??”? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ???????, ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????), ???? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??????? ???????, ????? ???????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???????.
???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???????? ???’ ???’ ???? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????… ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ???????”.
???? ????? ??????, ??? ????? ???? ?????”? ??? ???? ?????? ???????, ???? ??? ??? ?????, ?? ????? ??? ?? “????? ??? ???? ??????” ????? ??? ?’ ?????, ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????, ??? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ???.
In regards to what was publicized in the name of Rav SZ Aurbach and Rav Elyashiv ZTL as if he was against P’N
Here is what I found in the name of the family, disputing and bemoaning the above false rumor as if thier own daughters went against the parents will, being that they themselves wore wigs, with the blessings of thier parents (note, Rav Elyashivs daughter was RSZ DIL ) . They were initially against Pritzus wigs – not any other ones.
????? ??? ???? ????? ??????????? ????”?, ????? ?????? ??? ????, ??? ???? “????? ??”?” ???????? ???? ????”? ???????? ??”?, ????? ??????, ??? ????? ?? ???? ?’ ????? ???????? ???? ??? ????? ?????.
???? ?????:
“??? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????? – ??? ??? ???? ???.
?????, ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????, ?? ?????? ??? ?”? ??????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??????, ???? ????? ?????? ????? – ‘?? ????? ????? – ?????? ?????? ????’? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ???????, ?? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? – ?? ??? ??????, ??? ??? ??? ??????? ???? – ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???, ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ????????.
?? ???? ????? ????? ????, ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??????, ?????? ?????? ????? ?????… ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ????? ???, ????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????, ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???.
??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?”? ??? ???? ??????, ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? – ??? ??? ?? ??; ???? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ??????, ???? ???, ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ????? ??, ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????, ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???, ?? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ‘?? ??? ???? ???? – ??? ?? ???? ????’, ??? ????! ??? ??? ???? ????! ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????, ???? ????? ?? ???? ??????, ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????, ??? ???? ??? ?????? – ?? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????.
?? ?? ???? ??????? ????, ?? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???????, ??? ??? ???? – ???? ?? ????, ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????, ?????? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ?????, ?? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ?????.
??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??, ?? ????? ??????? ?????????? ???? ?????? – ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??, ?? ??? ????? ?????? ????????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ?????? – ?? ???? ?? ??? ????, ??? ??? ???.
??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????, ??? ??????? ?????? ?”?, ?????? ???? ??? ?????, ??? ???? ???; ????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???????.
?????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ?????????, ??? ?????? ????: ??? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ????… ??????? ???? ??????? – ???? ??? ???? ????; ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? – ?? ?? ??????? ?????, ???? ??? ??? ????, ?? ??? ???? ??? ???, ??? ???? ?????, ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????, ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? – ?? ?? ???? ?????. ??? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ????, ????? ????? ??????? – ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ????, ???? ?? ?? ??? ????; ?????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ???? – ?? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?????
???? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ???? – ?? ???????, ?? ?????? ??? ???????…….
????? ??????? ?? ????? ????? – ????? ??? ???? ???????, ??? ??? ??? ????, ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???, ????? ???? ????? ????… ?????? ?? ?’ ????? ???? ????? – ??? ????? ???? ?? ?????
” Is the sefer really more out of bounds than a typical daas yachid?’
Why would you say so, the sefer haMoarah was studied by many great minds, the ??????? , Nishmas Chaim, the ???”? (Magen Avos) even some great chassidic thinkers studied it in depth.
Rav Meir Simcha of Dvinsk constantly quotes the sefer haMorah in ??? ??? and ??? ???? .Daas,
5) Small shiurim (cf. Chazon Ish’ shiurim)”A quick ????, isn’t it the other way around, the Chazon Ish is relatively a new chumrah. The first one to mention anything about ?????? ???????? is the ???? ?????? ????? ??”?, until then each and every Jew followed the smaller shiur of the Shulchan Aruch.