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Jothar: We have a saying that you know something is off when couples spend too much time with each other. Shabbos is meant to spend with one’s own family, and one should not get too “close” to someone elses. As Rabbi Weinburger points out, bad things can happen.
oomis1105 (Just as an FYI): The Rema (OC 333) says that Hachnasas Orchim is only when you invite people who are out of town, but just inviting someone over for a meal is not included. There are Nafkei Mina in Halacha, as pointed out there.
AZ:
But money causes the older girls without it not to be looked at, vs. the older girls with money who “have fewer strikes”.
As you have pointed out, a financial incentive works to get boys to date older girls.
Nothing specific Sherry, thanks for the “Maare Makom”. I will take a look.
Last time I checked all citizens have the right to vote. As such, whomever is in charge gets a say as long as they are a citizen, just like everyone else in the town who registers to vote. 🙂
sherry cask:
I would like to piggyback on your research. What single-malt scotches have you found to have minimal or no sherry influence?
Jothar:
Does that apply to supporting children in Lakewood as well? 🙁
Mrs. tzippi:
No working girl can replace a PHD. After children (or EY), the cash flow stops & the boy then has to work/consider being mistapek B’muat, both of which for the boy is not prepared. With a PHD, the boy can learn being supported and not have any worries about parnassah, B”H!
MM:
That wasn’t the point I was trying to make (to get out of kollel). I assume everyone in kollel who does not pay full tuition has asked their non nogaiyah Rav who then told THEM to stay & take tzedaka, so that is off the table.
I was saying that someone in kollel still has the responsibility to pay tuition, and should work a second/night job (as many in kollel do) to pay some/most tuition, instead of shrugging it off due to the cost being insurmountable. I know someone in kollel who every summer worked in (I believe) Bear Sterns so that he should not have to take tzedaka. Many Rabbaim work in camps, or for their family businesses during Bein Hazmanim. There is no reason why Kollel should equal Tzedaka, it should be a last resort.
The letter writer in the Yated (who I mentioned earlier) felt “bad” that she did not pay tuition, but was still unwilling to work more than part-time to pay it. That was my “point”, not “no one should be in Kollel”.
Lastly, better is a matter of degree to what they would have gotten otherwise, not as compared to a Maggid Shiur in the Mir. 🙂
Jothar said: “Tuition breaks are a form of tzedakah”
As such one should do anything to stop/reduce the amount of the Tzedaka they are taking. As per the following (Rambam Matnos Aniyim Perek Yud)
?? [??] ???????? ??????? ????? ???????, ??????????????? ????????, ????? ?????????? ????????????, ????? ?????????? ????? ??????? ??? ??????????; ????? ?????? ???????? ?????????, ?????? ?????????? ??????, ????? ??????????? ????????????. ?????????? ????? ????? ??????????, ?????????–??????? ????????????, ?????????? ???????????? ??????????; ????? ?????????? ????????????: ?????? ????????? ??????? ??????????? ?????????, ????? ?????? ?????, ????? ????? ???????? ????? ???????? ?????, ?????????????; ????????? ?????? ????????.
?? ????????? ??????????–????? ????? ???????? ??????, ??????????? ??????????, ??????????? ???????? ??????????, ?????????? ?????????? ?????????????; ????? ???????? ??? ??????????, ????? ???????? ????? ?????????????? ?????.
The only argument I have heard is that there is no way someone in Kollel (with no skills and at best a weak high school education) can make by working what they make in kollel (off the books, MOFES & other government help, as well as discounts from stores), so they may as well stay in Kollel.
Aiyzeh Hu Chacham Haroeh Es Hanolad.
I (personally) have given up on others doing what is right, I can only do what is right myself (and perhaps convince others or at least give them enough doubt to ask a non-nogayah Rav).
BTW MO schools have more frills (gym, band, sports teams, etc.) so their costs are higher. They also pay better (which is not a bad thing, as they can get better rabbaim & teachers).
Old story.
How is this any different than differential treatment/acceptance policies for “legacy” students?
New money vs. Old money?
Gregaaron:
Well said & good point. I often wonder if all those (like the letter writer from the Yated a couple of weeks ago) who brush off their tuition responsibilities will be held accountable after 120.
Isn’t he a muslim?
Malkos?
Not knowing anything about the child, we can only speculate.
I personally would be more worried that the jeans were bought without my consent/money than the fact that he is wearing them (where did he get the money, where where they bnought (the mall?)) but that also depends on your location & what yeshiva he is in.
Mezonos Maven:
Very good. So a mother who works hard so that she can pay to send her children to yeshiva gets the most reward? 🙂
(Side point): Olam Haba is not our purpose. Our purpose is to connect with and serve the Borei Olam. Olam Haba is a side point (Al Minas Shelo Lekabel Pras).
As long as Gavra is not to blame! 🙂
Its not a point of the “yeshiva”, but those who don’t have a kesher with their rebbe or those rabbaim who don’t want to have a kesher with talmidim.
And yes, since the example was in Lakewood, something there is to be blamed. What? I don’t know, and I can only speculate.
cantoresq:
Herd mentality, Negius and the mindset of seeking an easy way out.
The first responder to the roundtable above (I don’t remember who it was) was actually against mass kollel and said it should only be for the top few, who would be able to be fully supported (including ALL costs) with what the klal is now paying out to many.
So its not only you, other rabbonim agree we have gone too far.
MM: Have posted in other threads what you are mechuyav to give up to pay. Once again (as I learned there) this may not apply in Brooklyn, where tuition is not expected to be paid. The Psak I got was that it depends on what the school says (i.e. if they say “we will be happy with 60%” without any checking of income etc., then that is what they really expect).
I have no problem if you can pay what you need to by having your wife do “inside” work. The question is what to do when that is not possible.
To get back to the point:
Has anyone here asked a non-nogayh Rav if they are allowed to not work (them or their spouses) and therefore ask for a tuition reduction?
haifagirl: Good point.
telegrok: Thank you for your information. Would you happen to have it in print from Rav Moshe, or is it just a Kaballa (something you heard second hand)?
jewishandworking22: Thats what I mean by “Umnus”. I apologize for not translating into English (which is the website’s accepted mode of communication). The location of the quote is the last Blatt in Keddushin (from Bar Kapara).
Mezonos Maven: Mah Inyan Shmita Eitzel Har Sinai??
We are dealing with the parents chiyuv to teach their children both torah & umnus (which I am still waiting for a Mekor for the Petur of 13+).
I actually think the parents may want to rethink their outlook on life & get a rav (or perhaps homeschool) if they feel that they have no way of not being Over the Issur of Gezaila.
And yes, if the parents wish, they can homeschool for the Limudayi Chol and pay less, if the school allows. The only thing that this has to do with the OP’s question is that it is a possible job for a wife in the home (homeschooling).
Mezonos Maven: Chiyuv to support ends at age 5, I’ve quoted it before from a Gemorah in Kesubos. The flip side is that you are supposed to shame the parents into supporting their children (also the gemorah there), and I discussed it (or not) in another thread.
We are dealing with the chiyuv to teach, not support.
Mezonos Maven: Never saw that in halacha, but perhaps you are correct. Please provide a Mekor that you have no responsibility of Talmud Torah or Lamdo Umnus after the age of 13, and then I will think about the question.
Mezonos Maven 🙂
Jothar, MM:
It is a call for rebbaim to be more involved with their talmidim. In a big yeshiva shuch as Mir, there is the added bonus of having a large choice of rabbaim. The problems begin when the rabbaim feel their job is to say shiur, perhaps answer questions regarding shiur, and thats it. This would be a problem in any yeshiva, large or small.
Mezonos Maven: They should ask a shaila about camp (or other) earnings. I believe the side that says not has a svorah that taking the money away from children who work to pay tuition teaches them that working hard doesn’t pay off (may have been a chinch roundtable, I don’t remember), which would apply here as well.
So the short answer is, all other things being equal, then yes. And I know of parents whose children work for the yeshiva (I believe) in lieu of tuition.
getzel1: Very good question, actually my Rav & Rosh yeshiva disagree on this one.
Many of the current Gedolim listened to the world series when they grew up, so my guess is that its not too bad as long as it doesn’t interfere with anything else. You can also make it a prize to be earned for something done well, such as extra time learning = time to listen.
Mezonos Maven: How do you know he wasn’t living in Lakewood, Manchester or EY?
Ben Melech has a very good point, but it applies to bothe men & women. People should not work for their “career”, but for the output (they need money to do good thing x), which is worth their time over what they could be doing otherwise in their Avodas Hashem. Better yet, if the work is only to forward their ability to be an Oved Hashem, and is being done leshem shomayim it (the working) becomes an act of Avodas Hashem.
To Mezonos Maven:
That is all goood while you have no children in yeshiva/BY. Once you take a tuition break/reduction, most people (I imagine) don’t ask their rav what they must give up/ pay tuition before doing whatever it is, from a “treat” for the children to giving to other Mosdos (a famous point by I believe Rav Schwab) or supporting married children.
C”V, someone could be “Asid Litain Alayhem Es HaDin” for all of the teachers that get paid late (or not al all) due to the person who does not pay the tuition they should (even if it is not full).
To nameless: Kol Kavodah is a Maylah. Not paying the tuition you should/could (if you don’t pay full) if you had only tried (while following strict halacha) may very well be Gezel, both from the other parents and from the teachers. It may just be me (an old fuddy-duddy who does not think living off others is the way to go), but I don’t see the question. One side is almost vadai Issurim De’oraysa, the other not.
Of course, if you can pay tuition on only one salary, Kol Hakavod.
BSD
I will contrast four real-life examples that I am aware of (tangentally), and you hopefully will understand you are all correct, but there is an additional important point which explains (somewhat) chassidish marriages.
Girl 1: Guy marries girl. Girl is completely unresponsive to hugs, etc from spouse. Guy sees that her family is similar (no warmth) and divorces. (would also include as “family” related)
Family 1: Guy marries girl. After 6 mo, they go to a Rav asking for a divorce. Rav asks why, parents of guy & girl start yelling. Rav pulls guy & girl into room, asks why. Guy & girl say nothing we can’t work out, but parents are pushing. Rav forbids children from speaking to parents for 6mo to a year, and they stay married. (in a chassish marriage, this is more abnormal, as the dating process is more the parents & less the couple)
Guy 1: Guy is told by rabbonim to go out, and marries girl. Two weeks after marriage, girl finds guy in “immoral place”, divorces guy (who seems to have done the same before marriage). She now has a son.
Guy/Girl (may be the most common?): Guy marries girl, is told girl will solve all taivah problems. Girl is not interested/willing/understanding. Guy feels he is better off trying someone else and/or starts looking around, and divorces girl.
the guy/girl example does not normally happen in the chassidish world, due to it being more insular (no good way to put it for the olam), and the woman having less independence and having to follow the husband’s lead (which makes for, in the end, a happier marriage).
Possible solution?: The boy has to know that marriage is not THE solution, but perhaps part of it, and the girls have to be taught that they can not possibly understand, since they are not boys, but still need to follow their husband’s lead.
EDITED
Jothar:
If your arguement is that you get schar for the machshava, then you are (IMHO) correct.
Jothar:
It is a curse to give to those who do not need, and you do not get Schar, straight out gemorah Bava Basra 9b. You are better off paying taxes (for which you do get Schar, see same gemorah prior amud).
Personally, as I have said on other threads, my strict priority is to give to those within my community & to local yeshivos, but give something (very) small to all those who come around (which doesn’t happen often), whether they are “kosher” or I’m not sure. If they have a letter from the Vaad I will give somewhat more, but explain (when they want more then that) that the local community is my priority.
I’m going to climb out of my hole for a sec…
EDITED
And no, I personally would not use the eruv in brooklyn, and am sorry to say that I am not learned enough to make a qualified opinion.
OK, back into the hole, and pulling the manhole cover back on top.
SJS:
I have had to stay in brooklyn for shabbos (oy!:) and those with small children by the simcha either were babysat for or were next door to where the simcha was and an eruv was placed between the two homes.
Peter Luger
“Thing thing, what is that thing
Thing sing, that thing can sing
Song long, a long long song
Good bye thing, you sing too long”
–Dr. Suess
SJSinNYC:
I may like him, just like Hebrew over Yiddish 🙂
The label “Yerayim” is one I’ve seen Rav Moshe use in his Teshuvos.
Otherwise “Ivri” does a good job for all occasions.
Laibels? Not so much into Yiddish names.
Joseph:
You should know better than to ask anyone to reveal their location!
🙂
Museum of Science & Industry. Would recommend to anyone, even though it gets a bit crowded.
I imagine (and have gotten this answer from most of my colleagues) most of us work to pay tuition. Prestige is only in our own hearts, with the knowledge that we try to act like the Bracha “V’Lo Lidai Matnas Basar V’dam” (in the most case) in the Pashut (non-literal) sense. (not to say there is anything wrong with not doing so, ask your LOR 🙂
PY:
See my earlier post on this thread regarding Rashbam & Tosfos, the diagonal of a rectangle (Pythagoran theorem), and P’shat in the Gemorah in Bava Basra 102a.
WolfishMusings:
Avid Inish Dina D’Nafshiy Bemakom P’saidah. I’m not a Rav, but since you can (probably) flip the car out of the way and onto the street to remove your own car from your own driveway (or if you have a Hummer, ride over his car), you can probably get it towed (I don’t know about a ticket, as that won’t solve the problem 🙂
Also suggest you get a BD to call him to Din. If he does not listen, he is a mesarev(?) and the BD will allow you to go to court.
A600KiloBear:
Achitofel learned 400 Halachos of a “Migdol Haporach B’avir”, what we would think of today as an airplane or helicopter.
years, but was looking for a shidduch for his daughter. Big Swiss
ames:
The argument by some was that science is best learned via Chazal, while others said that Chazal did not know everything we know today about the sciences.
Then it went downhill from there.
Joseph: Wrong post.
BSD:
Joseph:
Once again (and just to protect everyone else), what you have said seems to be (C’V)close to (I’m sure you are not saying kefira, so please restate what you said).
When the chachomim said a girl under 3 will not lose her Besulim and they grow back, they meant it literally. Same for a bird that only hops (for those who learn Daf). It does not hop more than 50 Physical Amos, not Spiritual Amos(?).
Please restate/clarify what you have just posted. And I apologize if I am being harsh (or if you agree & I did not understand).
Thanks.