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“The problem is not that we have an army, but that those who learn Torah for the protection of other Yidden don’t learn with enough Hasmadah to merit that sort of protection. The reason why we need an army is not because of the Arabs, but due to our own Chesronos. Just look at everone taking Bain HaZmanim! Bain Hazmanim is not to vacation, but to learn a different Limud then your normal Sedarim (famous quote from Rav Gifter), but to keep the Hasmada up. Time is wasting, and there is much work to be done!”
Most Yeshivaleit are not like this. Some are. Serious Beni Torah are not the problem, and I think even ROB would agree that they should continue learning. It is the other 85% that is the problem, and creates a Shem Ra for the real learners.
Toi: It goes back to my original post on the thread. If the Kollel Bochrim were using their time during Bain HaZmanim like the Gedolim suggest (as some, but not most, Kollel Yugelight do), then they would have no need to worry about the Medinah drafting them, and the Baal Habatim would support them as well. No one begrudges someone like Rav Chaim who learns all day every day from not joining the army! (Obviously, besides for age).
As my Rov has told me: There is no shortage of money in Klal Yisroel. People would rather spend it on something that produces. If there were more Yissachars, then the Zevulans out there already would be willing to support.
To make oC happy:
Lets say I already gave Chomesh, and my Rov (let’s say he is Rav Shmuel) Paskened that I MAY NOT give any additional Tzedaka. How can I stop such calls, which are only the Atzas Yetzer Hara to try to get me to disobey my Rov the Gadol?
“Source?”
Shulchan Aruch (and the shutz).
Siman & Sif? (Just to prove it to everyone)
Toi: Preaching to the Choir means that I agreed with you already and am not the one that you need to convince.
ROB – I personally believe in Kollel, but right now with the influx of Bochurim coming to YWN Bain Hazmanim to post their pseudo-intelligence – I’m starting to wonder. Perhaps there are too many guys sitting and learning all day? What happenned to 10 Battlanim? They really need to stop all this vacation – Yom Tovim, summer, etc. If the Yeshiva world wants to consider themselves as Working in Torah, then learn as much as a worker works – no Baal Habus gets so much vacation from work.
Like This.
GAW- but it does illustrate that disagreeing with one’s hashkafa, even with harsh-ish words, isnt sinas chinam. unless someone would have the gall to accuse R aharon ztl of sinas chinam. which would be pretty dumb.
Preaching to the choir. See The Milchamos talk about the Ba’al Hamor if you really want to see “Harsh words” (which I’m sure you already know).
Rav Eliashev resigned from the rabbanut due to his disgust from it. He also refers to the Kenesset as a botei minus.
Due to the Mamzerus issue, not due to “Zionism”.
“So, again, you’ve defined what isn’t the problem. You’ve also acknowledged Lashon Hara is assur. So, in your esteemed opinion, a frum man who regularly speaks Lashon Hara– which, admittedly, isn’t an clinical addiction as you’ve eloquently pointed out — how is he to stop engaging in that issur? What would you recommend to your best friend who confided to you he has this problem? (You agree it is a problem for a Yid, don’t you?)”
I would recommend to learn Mussar. In addition, I would suggest to start slow (perhaps being extra careful 1 hour a day) and grow from there.
Rav Aharon Kotler, in all fairness, created Lakewood to be the anti-college, and his shitta was that secular studies is mostly Assur. His definition of “Tumah” was not the same as what Rav Ruderman or Rav Moshe would have used.
Feif Un: And it may very well be that Rav Lau is well respected personally by the Viznitzer Rebbe, but he can not stand together due to his position. Similar to someone not wanting to join with Rav Elyashiv ZT’L due to him having been a Zionist Dayan, without taking away from his Gadlus. I imagine had Rav Elyashiv spoken at a Siyum HaShas, there would be the same reaction.
That being said, it is a removal of Achdus from what could have been. Too bad.
There are more affinity voters for Pres. Obama than for Mitt Romney.
rob: I didn’t give any pilpul. Just simple logic. The money received is not for a “cause”. And it is not tzedakah. It is a simple business transaction. If I make a deal with my neighbor that he’ll pay me $100 a week if I learn Torah and he’ll share the s’char, it’s a simple business deal. The same as if he agreed to pay me $100 a week to watch me play baseball.
I’ll agree to this. Its only whan someone actually asks for Tzedaka that it is such. Taking a salary from a Kollel is NOT really taking Tzedaka. Taking a tuition discount for being in Kollel probably IS Tzedaka (depending on the situation and manner of discount, see earlier threads). Collecting to pay for your daughter’s wedding and Nadan (because you have nothing) certainly IS Tzedaka.
To sidetrack, I heard a speach over Shabbos decrying that no one wants to date daughters of Lakewood rabbaim & Kolleleit, since they have no money. If this is true, who do the SONS of the Lakewood Rabbaim & Kolleliet date?
Boruch Hashem a show of Achdus in Klal Yisroel. It is a step towards Moshiach.
ohr chodesh: You misunderstood. I paraphrased the letter from Rav Aharon Feldman regarding Rav Elyashiv Z”TL shitta on the book. It is not Minus or Apikorsus. So say the Gedolim. Or if you want to try something novel, do some research for yourself.
Does this make R’ Slifkin an Apikores? I would say probably not (he does have a fair few Rishonim to rely upon), though it’s clear that several tremendous Talmidei Chachamim think it does.
In all fairness, what I heard (which goes well with the Charaidi mindset) is that the Shittos themselves are NOT Apikorsus. However, bringing these shittos out in the open could cause questions that might make OTHERS become apikorsim or go off the derech.
That makes the question not one of Halacah, but of Hanhaga. Even the Pope is not considered infallible in matters of Hanhaga, only doctrine.
cant we address the issue here without any 9 year olds learning new words? come on people.
Agreed. I’m surprised that wasn’t edited, and ask that it should be. Use a euphemism.
Bustercrown: Use the recent Asifa as an excuse to get monitoring software on your computer. Set up two programs, one that sends to you and one to him (separately), so that each of you gets a full copy and neither of you can erase any activity.
Hatzlacha.
yichusdik:
Of course it is yeradas Hadoros. Now we have the Stupid Tzionim to pay for learning. Then, if you didn’t work, you starved, and you were publicly ridiculed by Bais Din in the hope that you would become productive & support your family.
As I said, Yeridas HaDoros. As time goes along, their brains turn to liberal mush.
?????? ???? ??’ ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ????
(Gittin 38B)
I believe we can bring a Rayiah from here, that even though the eved could not daven himself (since obviously an Eved would not have been wearing the Levush Yehudi of a Fedora and Sportscoat), none the less he still counted for a minyan. Therefore R’ Eliezer was correct in freeing the Eved.
And to say it doesn’t make him “not frum” would you say the same about someone who occasionally eats at burger king but tries to stop.
How about someone who speaks Lashon Hara occasionally but tries to stop? Talks during Davening?
“If You Only Knew the Power of the Dark Side”.
I know there are different halachos for men and women who commit adultery. This is different; it’s viewing inappropriate content online. For all the men who were so understanding that’s he’s human, deserves support, and probably was lonely to start with, would they feel the same way if it was their wife who did this. Me thinks not!
I would not feel the same way about a woman.
I would not even suggest that they go to a Rov. There is (mostly) no problem with her viewing such images, and I would not consider it to be an issue with someone’s marriage. As everyone said, this is a Halacha issue, not an infidelity issue.
C’V to go into the Zionist army and support the Zionist state the best thing is to sit in the bais medrash and learn the heilige Torah
This is the real reason. Kesef is an exception, as we are doing the Zionists a favor by making their Gehennom slightly less hot. 🙂 In the Oylam HaEimes, they will thank us.
See, we care about all Yidden, even Shreklach Zionists.
I saw a quote recently, that applies here:
“If a guy is staring at “unfiltered internet access” and eating cheeseburgers, then he is normal. If he is eating “unfiltered internet access” and staring at cheeseburgers, then he needs help.”
That being said, it certainly is an issue in a Frum relationship. Certainly don’t get the children involved (a HUGE mistake). The couple should certainly go to a Rov who is an expert in these issues. However, greater people than her husband have been Nichshal. Didn’t we hear about the “Rosh Yeshiva” in the pre-Asifa ads that was Nichshal? It doesn’t make him not a Rosh Yeshiva, it makes him a Rosh Yeshiva with a Yezter Hara.
So basically, I agree with Choppy & Toi, but was somewhat more wordy.
“This sounds very weird. I’m not a big posek, but I am quite certain also that davening with a minyan outweighs the importance of wearing a hat and jacket.”
As I said in the old thread, it is Offen a Mishna Berurah. K’Deerech SheHolchin B’Rechov.
I’m going to add to my original point. Israeli Charaidim are completely unprepared for any outside experiences, that the Gedolim may be (rightfully) afraid that there will be mass off the derech movements if there is exposure to something other than the Charaidi lifestyle. This does not apply to other derachim of Yiddishkeit (such as American Yeshivish or Israeli Chardal), where there is some measure of exposure and understanding of the outside world.
Yerushalayim. Where else?
The other “strains” are inauthentic break-offs of Judaism. They have nothing to do with Yiddishkeit, other than in name only (falsely claimed.)
That’s what they would say as well about you, who uses the internet. That is what they would say about Rav Reuven Feinstien, Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky, and other American Gedolim who veer from their absolutes. After all, they Matter things like playing ball, working, and speaking Hebrew, which everyone in Eretz Yisroel knows is Assur (and Yehareg V’al Yaavor).
We at least consider them frum. We are only frum enough that they can take our money 🙁
I know that was mean, so I’ll choose to think that you are refering to Yidden who are not Shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos, and are not “Mevakshei Hashem”.
Speaking of “Mevakshei Hashem”, I think one of the telling moments of the recent asifa is when the Lakewood Moshgiach had to apologize for speaking in English, because even those who don’t speak Yiddish can be “Mevakshei Hashem”. It opens a window into the mindset of certain groups of Yidden and what they feel about other Shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos who are not like themselves.
All that being said, if you don’t think that we are Yeraim, then you and I have nothing to talk about. I’ll go join Wolfish in denegrating myself. According to you, I’m going deep anyway, but at least I will be in good company.
gavra: As I said, cease all taxation of Chareidim, and we are in business. We have a workable solution. And if the zionists force someone to utilize some service (by making it virtually impractical or impossible to refuse it), you can’t hold it against that they are using it under duration. I have no doubts Chareidim would be better off not giving a penny to the Israeli government (taxes, etc.) and not taking a penny.
Practical services (such as police, water, etc) are provided by the government. If you want those services, then you will have to pay taxes (or usage fees). I agree with the “impossible”, but not “impractical”. People say not working on Shabbos or not staeling is “impractical” as well. If need be, those who opt out of the state can get well water & set up their own health care system.
No, gavra. Like I mentioned above, many Chareidim already never accepted government funds they are legally entitled to under the law.
And they are legal residents merely by having lived there for 100 or 200+ years. Having lived in Eretz Yisroel long before the Zionists came there. (Even before they were trying to make Uganda the zionist state.)
Tell that to the Arabs. Or are you a proponent of the right of return?
Even the Charaidim that don’t take money use the state for municipal services, which they need to be legally in the state.
As I said, I think the angry Chilonim would be happy if the Charaidim got up as a whole & refused all funds & services (including health care, etc.). They would then no longer want to draft Charaidim. Are you suggesting that as a solution?
GAW- do you really wanna duke it out with R chaim kanievsky?
Of course not. I think Rav Chaim (obviously) is right. The draft will end Charadi life as we know it.
However, for other strains of Yiddishkeit (such as Chardal, etc.) which keep Torah U’Mitzvos just as much as Charaidim, the draft would not be Shaas Shmad.
To quote the Israeli Mishpacha Magazine
“Without the haredi lifestyle, conservative and stubborn, the Jewish people has no future, and without the jewish people, there is no need for a Jewish state. Continuing this lifestyles is dependent upon spiritual independence, and we are therefore drafted into this ancient army from the age of being an infant, with the generals being the gedolim. We are constantly tested, we constantly deal with the challenges and seductions presented by the modern world, but we withstand and do not get drawn in, we protect our kids at any price from the fire of dangerous permissiveness. While we are drafted and committed to this life of Torah and Yirat Shamayim, we are unable to accept any demands or a draft of any other kind, even if it makes us look unreasonable.”
That is the religion.
(I know, some people will say it is not Yiddishkeit. They may even be right. But so what? THE CHARAIDIM THINK they are right. That makes it Shmad.)
As an explanation, the draft will break open the “chareidi museum” implemented by the previous generation’s Gedolim. The Charaidim want to be in a Ghetto, as that is the only way that they can practice their religion of not allowing outside influences into their lives.
ZD: Good point. Perhaps the Israelis would agree to such an agreement as Choppy suggests. I just feel that it will end badly for the Charaidim.
It is sha’as sh’mad.
Charadim entering the draft will mean the end the Charaidi religion. Those who practice that religion agree that the religion must be saved at all costs.
Why is this even a question?
Choppy: Until the Government tells the Arabs (and secular Israelis) that it is open season on Charaidim. Don’t think the police will care, they barely care now.
Methinks the Gedolim thought of that, and don’t like the idea. That why Charaidim have to be (at the very least) legal residents, so they can continue to enjoy police protection, garbage collection, municipal water, etc.
gavra_at_work:
No taxation without representation.
(Heard that one before?)
You have the right of representation, but then you have to agree to the responsibilities thereof.
Besdies, both Halacha (as in Dina D’Malchusa) and the Supreme Court disagree. Slogans are nice, but non-citizens don’t have the same rights as citizens do.
If non-citizens are exempt from taxes, that might be a workable solution. But be aware than anyone, including someone with substantial income, can choose that option. If you are going to tax someone, his family and community is entitled to government services.
I don’t believe that to be true. You can have taxes on income earned in the country without providing services or being a resident. See IRS pub. 519.
In ANY Chareidi community — Yeshivish/Litvish, Chasidish, etc. — it is virtually unheard of for a married female community member to go with uncovered hair and/or pants. Doing so would clearly put someone outside of the community.
In my Scottish community, we all LOVE Haggis. Anyone who doesn’t love Haggis is immediately kicked out of out Scottish community (as “Fake Scots”), so everyone continues to love Haggis. In fact, there have been rumors that many community members don’t love Haggis, and there was an Asifa is Citi Field recently pushing everyone to LOVE Haggis, even in private (showing that it is accepted that many do not love Haggis). However, as long as they LOVE Haggis in public, we still consider them TRUE SCOTSMEN, no matter if they really hate Haggis or not in private.
As a continuation: The Chilonim don’t really care about Charaidim one way or the other. They are perfectly happy to share the country with those Charaidim & Chardal who work, pay taxes, etc. What really scares them is that the Charadim will take over the country, and Talibanize it. Then the Chilonim will be kicked out, or be forced to leave. Think Spain 1492.
The whole “army and Charadim” is a red herring.
The chilonim don’t want Charadim in the army, but they do want to stop paying for their services, and are afraid that they will take over the country through the vote (and large families). The Charadim don’t want to be in the army, but do want the services and do plan on taking over the country and making it a “Religious state”. Short of that, they want to be left alone, as they are “conscientious objectors” to the state in general.
The simple (and sometimes suggested) solution is to have anyone at 18 either sign up for Army/Sherut, or agree to drop their citizenship voluntarily (which would make them stateless, but would not go against international law, since it is voluntary), They would be allowed to remain in the country legally (similar to what might have happened in an Arab state), but lose the vote and the right to services (such as health care, etc.). It would give the Charaidim everything that they claim that they want, but would never be accepted by them.
Al Shelosha Devarim HaOlam Omed: KESEF MAMMON GELT!!!
The name Neturei Karta literally means “Guardians of the City” in Aramaic and comes from the gemara of the Jerusalem Talmud, Hagigah, 76c. There it is related that Rabbi Judah haNasi sent two rabbis on a tour of inspection:
In one town they asked to see the “guardians of the city” and the city guard was paraded before them. They said that these were not the guardians of the city but its destroyers, which prompted the citizens to ask who, then, could be considered the guardians. The rabbis answered, “The scribes and the scholars,” referring them to Tehillim (Psalms) Chapter 127.[6]
Wikipedia article on “Neturei Karta”
Even the Dor Hamidbar and David Hamelech needed armies with them. We believe that T’fillos and Torah are the Ikar, but even our highest-level generations had armies as well.
And Avraham threw sand at the four kings. Sancherev’s army was wiped out by Hashem directly.
The problem is not that we have an army, but that those who learn Torah for the protection of other Yidden don’t learn with enough Hasmadah to merit that sort of protection. The reason why we need an army is not because of the Arabs, but due to our own Chesronos. Just look at everone taking Bain HaZmanim! Bain Hazmanim is not to vacation, but to learn a different Limud then your normal Sedarim (famous quote from Rav Gifter), but to keep the Hasmada up. Time is wasting, and there is much work to be done!
As per the hypothetical terrorist, if Yidden would learn with enough Hasmadah, the Arab with the gun would never make it to the Beis Medrash. Hashem is perfectly capable of protecting us without an army. Furthermeore, no one would look up for their sefer when he started shooting (like it was in Kelm), but the bullets would never make it (if we deserved that level of protection).
“The Pruzbal also was a change of the torah law “
Not even close. It was the institutionalization of a previously existing mechanism that always did the same thing. Ayin Shom.
Pruzbal is more similar to the idea of solving the Agunah crisis by having everyone be Mekadesh with a T’nai. It solves an issue using existing, but not well known methods.
Furthermore, an IVF child may not be a Yoresh at all (Pashtus of the Igros Moshe re: IVF). Ask your LOR for practical Halacha.
??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? Bechoros 47B
SA is CM 277:7
DY: We are not even on the same highway, let alone going in different directions. I will drop the point, as it is only a side issue. Let it be known that I do NOT believe the Gedolim have anything against parnassah in general (for women, or men not in kollel. For men who can learn it is not allowed, as they must stay in Kollel.), but some do seem to have something against working in an office setting with a mixed crowd.
P.S. I would have thought that “Dallas” would not be in your repertoire.
The Asifa Rabbonim, like Rav Matisyahu Solomon, Rav Malkiel Kotler, the Skulener Rebbe, Rav Ahron Schechter, etc. etc. etc. do not hold it assur to work in the outside world. B&H, which is Satmar and as Chasidish as they get, and has the support of the Satmar Rebbe, works smack in middle of Manhattan right in the goyishe world.
B&H has mostly frum men, and separate floors. The men in the office never see any women. Those on the floor are experts, not Chassidim. Meshom Rayiah?
And to your first point, Rabbi’s Shechter, Harari, etc. did not speak at the Asifa. Perhaps they should have. I imagine that there would have been a much better response had the Agudah been involved. Rav Shmuel (IMHO) would not have agreed with the language used, at the very least. The Gedolim baruch Hashem were smart to realize the disaster that it would become, at least in the eyes of the litvish community outside Lakewood (but the damage control seems to have worked, boruch Hashem).
Tell that to the guy who shot J.R. 😉 Dallas?! Perhaps it was new 30 years ago.
I’m waiting for yours. You avoided responding to the part I called you out on (parnassah being assur) and instead wanted to discuss kollel vs, working, which is a topic for another thread.
I said Parnassah is B’dieved, and working “outside” is “mini” assur (by those rabbonim of the Asifa). Kollel vs. working is the “parnassa is B’dieved” point.
My quote again:
ZD: I believe that you miss a very big point in the whole process. The rabbonim of the Asifa view the entire concept of Parnassa in general, and specificly outside the insular community, as a big b’dieved, if not outright assur.
DY: Read that too, and thought it was the silly one of the bunch. Worst of all, it is bad writing, the “it was all a dream, I’ll change” is lame, to say the least.
I’m still waiting for your response re: Asifa Rabbonim.
Whenever something good happens that day, thank Hashem on the spot. Then, when you daven, remind yourself of all that Hashem did for you, and you will feel the need to thank Him.
Good luck.