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DY: want to explain what I missed? Kollel being l’chatchila, Parnassa as B’dieved, and the Asifa Rabbonim (very strongly Chassidic) being strongly against working in the outside world with outsiders, if not holding that it is “assur Mammash”.
P.S. I agree they probably hold working in the outside world is “assur Mammash” like less than four inches below the knee is “assur Mamash”, but that is what they put out there, not me. ZD, when he quotes the asifa rabbonim, is doing himself a disservice, as many, if not most, Gedolim and Charaidi rabbonim don’t hold of their mehalech in life.
There is nothing wrong with celebrating Israeli independence, when the Yidden there who would have been wiped out by the Arabs in ’48 were saved by a Neis Niglah.
The date in which the Arabs gave up and we “won” was the 11th of Tammuz (July 18, 1948). A day to celebrate!
I really dont know why there are people that fight tooth and nail against having a filter. i have not seen one reason NOT to have a filter.
The Amazon and Ebay sellers just give silly arguments, as to why they need access to porn sites. or as to why any site that needs to be accessed cannot be whitelisted. (three minutes wont kill the item on Amazon)
In addition, I’m would think that the whitelist can be set up that any amazon.com site is allowed.
I spoke to someone who went to the Asifa in the Five Towns, and it was very much like what I would have expected the original asifa to promote. Too bad the original got hijacked.
Not unless you can clarify your statement (in which case, I will gladly take it back and apologize).
DY: Lechatchila, should one be in kollel or working? Furthermore, would you disagree that many Rabbonim (especially Chassidish Rebbes) do not allow their flock to work in situations where they will be working together with both non jews & members of the opposite gender?
Do you deny any of this?
Just today, two boys got booted from Yeshiva for smoking after the Mashgiach told them explicitly not to smoke on the premises. Five cigarrettes later – OUT!!!
Boruch Hashem. Now what are these children going to do with themselves (I know, I’m not happy either way).
I also hope the school would do something if they were found smoking off the school grounds, just as if they had been spotted with girls or unfiltered internet access.
What GAW wrote is absolutely false. The rabbonim DO care about people’s parnassah, and for him to suggest that they hold it’s possibly assur to engage in earning parnassah is comical (if not vicious).
YOU are putting words into my mouth. Of course they care about Parnassah, but they still view it as a B’dieved. So do you. Chazal have a different opinion, as did Rav Miller Z”TL.
Want to take that back? Or do you want to get into the Kollel vs. working argument (on the “working” side!!!)
ZD: I believe that you miss a very big point in the whole process. The rabbonim of the Asifa view the entire concept of Parnassa in general, and specificly outside the insular community, as a big b’dieved, if not outright assur.
Based on that mindset, the internet should not really be used for work either. Anything the removes Yidden from the outside world is inherently good.
Now try to understand the asifa & rabbonim in that context. It makes much more sense.
Actually you can win a prize for defending smokers, no matter what – whether it’s dangerous and Ossur from the Torah -you’ll still defend them.
Why if it’s Ossur they aren’t being thrown out -is a question you have to ask them. I’m not a RY and if I would be one – I’d be from those who throw out Bochrim for smoking from their Yeshivos.
And that is what makes us both LWMO. 🙂
It is a matter of priorities, and smoking is so low down, it is being treated as muttar.
I’ll agree with RABBAIM here as well. Make it something meaningful & personal. And NO CHRIS BROWN! THAT is a bad segulah, Chas V’Shalom (Or Rihanna for that matter. Mamash a Shanda!)
You could always use the intro from Journeys, Vol. 4, “The Band”.
In one extreme case, a couple in Korea would spend 12 hours a day away from home on the internet. They would run home once a day to feed their three-year-old daughter. She died of dehydration and malnutrition.
Sounds like one of the Gedolim stories, where the Gadol stayed in Bais and almost dies becuase he was too busy learning to go home & eat. I like their strength of mind, even if it is misplaced. Imagine what they could have done if they were in the Bais Medresh instaed of on the internet!
The account of our slavery and delivery from Mitzrayim would take second place to the texts poking fun at the most meaningful aspects of the evening.
Instead it takes second place to useless pilpul (a pet peeve of mine).
zvei dinim: Not me, Poe’s. (As in Poe’s Law).
Meaning, if I were a smoking Yeshiva Bochur (which I am not), I have not been convinced. Oomis & others are aware from other threads what I feel about smoking.
Until real yeshivas (and not “some yeshiva in Manchester (UNITED! Go Red Devils!!!)”, but Brisk, Mir, Lakewood, Ponevitch, etc.) treat smoking like unfiltered internet use, nothing will change. And that is why people think it is muttar, no matter what proofs, p’sakim, or pashkevels you bring. It is treated differently, so it is thought of differently.
BTW, how can driving lead to mixed dancing? Or is it just another part of your ???????
Fiddler on the Roof.
That’s completely wrong, no matter what you were told in yeshiva. The biology of your body has nothing to do with what your religion is.
Guy on internet vs. R’ Chaim. Hum, lets see who I would believe.
The issur is viewed as a chiddush, and not as accepted.
Of course not! Chadash is Assur Min HaToirah!!!
To me, the distinction is one of ignorance. Sorry that I speak thus of Roshei Yeshivos.
And as such, you can’t blame the bochrim for thinking it is Muttar, no matter what is said. Action speak, words without actions don’t.
There are Yeshivas in Manchester that boot boys out for smoking – the Rosh Yeshiva’s son was ‘asked to leave’ for driving and smoking during zman.
One Yeshiva, and he had to be driving too!? Obviosly he was kicked out for driving, as smoking is not enough. Yeshiva’s in EY also kick bochrim out for driving (which is much worse than smoking, as driving could lead to mixed dancing, CV, Lo Alayinu)
(Poe’s)
Even R. Moshe Z’tl, who said Mutter would Not hold that nowadays acc. to his son. But they continue to allow smoking in many Yeshivos – like it’s no problem. How long do you think a guy would last in these Yeshivos with Internet service or a non-kosher cell?
Hits the nail on the head and wins the prize!!!!
Since the Roshei Yeshiva are not removing such bochrim, it is obvious that they hold it is mutter. They would certainly remove someone who was convincing others to view unfiltered internet access, or even if they were doing so in public.
Open a store.
When you have sold enough to support yourself (including full tuition) for the day, close your store and go to the Bais Medrash.
That is what the Chofetz Chaim did. Try it!
Makes no difference which rav you quote. Your body doesn’t hold by this rebbe or that rebbe. Your body operates according to its biology. Smoking is dangerous to your health and to the health of everyone around you. Smoking is addictive. Smoking kills. Regardless of what (you think) your rebbe tells you.
Meheicha Teise?
(Poe’s)
You’re ignoring Rav Shlomo Zalman (????? ????, ???? ????? ?”?, ?’ ?”?) quoted above who says that we follow the doctors of our times even when the opinion of the Rambam is otherwise.
Yup. I’m looking for a heter, just like all the other Yeshiva guys.
Even though the Rambam was talking about Yidden, we don’t say the doctors opinion only applies to goyim.
Famous Chasam Sofer with # of teeth disagrees. Rav Chaim is well known to have agreed with this shitta, as he also says Goyim have a different physiology than Yidden re: number of teeth.
(Poe’s)
DY: It is “another possibility” brought on by the internet age that most people wouldn’t think of. People who are worried about their children bringing in “unfiltered internet” should watch for this as well (which is much easier to hide than an actual device). Perhaps locking up your digital camera is a good shemirah/Geder.
Plus these people try to imitate the older bochrim who they see smoking and it gets in their head that its yeshivish to smoke.
It IS Yeshivish to smoke, as it lowers libido (both in recent experiments & Yeshiva lore).
yekke2: Furthermore, the Gedolim of now would have to be Moide that the Gedolim of the earlier generations were being Over Issurim D’Oraysah (Granted B’Shoggeg) by smoking, and those who do so now are no different (and possibly worse) then those who eat pig, or watch unfiltered internet (I love the usage of that term as a Guzma for the “P” word). That is something that the Gedolim as of yet have not been willing to do.
(Not Poe’s)
I cannot ‘reach’ my son right now, since he is so defiant.
IMHO, that is the first thing that you should work on. Not the Yiddishkeit. From what you said to Pirate, you seem to be on the right track. Omnia vincit Amor (Love conquers all). One point though. Do not mention you. Make it about him. He doesn’t care (at this point) that he hurts you, that may even be part of his intentions. You have to prove to him that you are on his side.
BSD.
It is silly to ignore the very real message because there are other possibilities.
L’Toeles Harabim, one of the easiest ways to hide such a thing is on a flash card (which is smaller than your thumbnail), which doesn’t need a computer to view. All it needs is a digital camera or a digital picture frame. The digital camera can even play video.
Health:
When you quoted me, you forgot the last line.
If the Gedolim want people to stop smoking for your S’vara that the P’nei Yehoshua was incorrect, then they should have said so. Obviously they do not want to do so, so bochrim can still use him as a heter. No different than some MO using Rav Moshe (also in the Miyut) as a heter for Chalov “Hacompanies”.
(Poe’s)
P.S. (not Poe’s). I know nothing about additives, as I have never smoked.
yekke2: My response got blocked, but I will summarize.
If the Chazon Ish knew how to do brain surgery from learning Toirah, Kal V’Choimer the P’nei Yehoshua knew what smoking would do to the lungs from his vast knowledge of Toirah! And still, the P’nei Yehoshua said smoking is healthy. Either “Nishtanu HaTeva” (which I have never seen in an anti-smoking P’sak) , or the studies were not done on Yidden, who react physically differently than Eino Yehudim (as per Chazal).
(Poe’s)
Thanks for all the suggestions, but unfortunately, the situation has deteriorated badly. My son quit Yeshiva and left to be with his chevra.
Now, what do I do…………………..?
BS”D
I have put some thought into the off the derech “crisis”, and have what you might believe is an “unorthodox” idea.
The Amish have a concept called “Rumspringa”, where a teen “goes off the derech” and tries out other cultures. They can then decide what is best for them (similar to Yisro, who tries all Avodah Zara before he settled that Avodas Hashem is correct).
Teens are not brought up to be, and if fact are not deemed capable of making the correct decision, that is why we do not allow teens to marry, drink, smoke, etc. They are not Bar Onshim until 20 (hypothetically two years into being married). Even Chazal understand that even though they are mechuyav in Mitzvos, Hashem gives teens a “grace period” to find themselves and seek their path to Avodas Hashem.
In your position (which I am not, and do not fully comprehend), I would fully support my son’s quest to find himself, with the (internal) hope that this would be the best way to keep him connected to Yiddishkeit. I would also discuss (if possible) the idea of making no irrevocable changes (i.e. no Tattoos & no pregnancies). Your support will still mean much to your son, and if you are able to do so without judgement, you should still have him in your home and treat him as normal (judging him will just make things worse). Being teenage is just a stage of life, and almost all people grow out of it. He will Bezras Hashem decide the best way for him towards Avoda in due time, assuming he is not pushed off further.
Hatzlacha in all your endeavours.
No internet & no smoking. Seriously, either one (for a Lakewood guy who doesn’t need internet for school) should be an absolute no.
We don’t agree to most of the Neturai Karta platform, but on this they definitely have a slight point.
We don’t agree to most of Hamas’s platform, but on many things they definitely have a point. (I would bring in others, but Godwin). Tznius is much better in Gaza than in Israel.
The OP had a (false) point which he was trying to make. You disagree with the OP as well. Shalom al Yisroel.
[verses] [Oral Torah]
Rabbi Avi Shafran, who, in his position as the spokesperson of the Agudah, is the mouthpiece of the Moetzes.
If I say that the punishment for wearing sha’atnez is having a vulture eternally peck at your liver in the afternoon
That is already the punishment for giving out the secret of fire. Try another one.
The Penei Yehoshua says that smoking is healthy.
Who are we to argue with the Gedolei Achronim? The only answer I have seen is “Nishtane HaTeva”, and now it is harmful. Studies are not a Rayah, perhaps it is only harmful to those who have 31 (or 33) teeth, not 32.
(Poe)
Sam2,
I wasn’t referring to this particular situation. Maybe if someone feels that they’re uncomfortable in a particular community, they should move.
The implication, though, as you picked up, wass that somehow the further to the right you lean, the less nizhar you are in hilchos loshon hora. That’s patently ridiculous.
DY: It has nothing to do with “the right”, CV. It depends how insular the community is. The more insular the community, the more of a “Shanda” it becomes when someone leaves, whether it is an Amish, a Kibbutznik or someone from Kiryas Yoel. Nothing to do with religion. Furthermore, the more insular the community, the more a Shanda affects the remainder of the family, whether it is Shunning, blacklisting or rejection of shidduchim.
if a guy cant schoose a girl on his own then what can he do?!?!?
Not get married, since he obviously is not mature enough to do so.
For the OP: Look outside the (Lakewood) box, and avoid anyone looking for money (both boys & Shaddchanim). You will find the cream if you look hard enough.
I don’t get this whole thread.
As Jews who follow the Torah, we have a Shulchan Aruch that tells us what our priorities are for Tzedaka. Everyone should be following those priorities. The answer for the OP (and everyone else in the thread) is ask your LOR.
I feel for everyone without children, and I ask Hashem that they should be able to do so (both for physical and shidduch related issues). However, my feelings do not absolve me from following Shulchan Aruch. THey should not absolve you either.
The same P’sak applies to someone who smokes. There is a reason why Rav Moshe refused to say outright that any of these are assur. The Gadlus of Rav Moshe understood the ramifications of his P’sakim.
For those who don’t accept the pre-nup- how can we protect women from men who want more than a Beis Din or secular court are willing to give them, and will not give their wife a get in order to get what they want?
How do we protect both sides from extortion?
I know of a “Rabbi” who had the need to leave his wife because she wouldn’t move outside Eretz Yisroel (Pashtus, the Halacha is that she can force him to move TO EY, but there may have been other considerations, I don’t know the exact case). He got a Heter Meah, and she is an Agunah. On the other side, you have women who refuse to accept Gitten until their conditions are met.
A possible solution is to require significant funds submitted before the wedding by both parties, to be released to one side on the withholding of a Get. Placing a lien on the real property of the parents would fulfill the qualifications needed.
Another idea would be to sign an arbitration agreement that the Mesader (or successor) has the right to force binding arbitration, which would then be recognized by both Bais Din & courts.
Therefore, when a gadol, who is reliable, states that x is kosher, then for all his followers, x IS kosher. End of story. And all other rabbis must accept that for those people x is kosher even if it wouldn’t be for their followers. Therefore those children will not have the spiritual definition of mamzerim.
See Bais Shammai above. Mamzers all. Just like a Sephardi Sefer Torah is Passul for Ashkinazim, and they can’t be Yotze (due to the changes in the letter) Zachor with it, as well as vice versa.
A few points:
1: The prenup descibed has no incentive for the woman to comply. I would believe it more if the woman would also have a similar K’nas.
2: Making a kinyan to pay is difficult at best. I would imagine that another bais din would find it unenforcable.
3: I agree here 100% with Tomche (I’m shocked too) that it should only cover reasons that Halacha considers to be acceptable for divorce.
The chasidishe hechsheirim are machmir on many chumras.
Yeah they Slap a label on twizzlers and Charge extra for it on a “Chumra”
Parnassah for Yeedin is always a “chumra” that should be upheld. Rav Shlomo Kluger was well known te be Machmir on hand matzos to give Almanos Parnassa.
Certainly, with more (or accurate) information his opinion on the matter could change.
Hence the problem. Who is to say that the P’sak will not change yet again in another two weeks.
msseeker:
B’derech Klal, Chassidish ladies work as parents, which is the best thing that a mother can do, and the husbands work.
If you are a “Yotze min Haklal”, and your Rebba said that you should work, then you should speak to him regarding internet as well. As far as you know, he may have good resons why you SHOULD have internet.
As we always say here, ask your LOR.
And I thought this was the Yeshiva World, where Torah and Torah ideals rule supreme. I used to frequent another site, until I found that one very lacking in major Torah hashkafa issues. So I found this one, blessfully moderated, with a Torah mindset, Torah and Gedolei Torah in strict reverence.
Must I leave this one too?
Hagaon Haadir Posek Hador Ba’al Shevet Halevi HaRav Shmuel Wosner shlit”a says yes. Will you follow the GADOL or your Boich S’vara?
Are you a hero or a slacker?
It’s interesting that those with a filter think it was a huge success and those without a filter or who have read the coverage from unfiltered sources believe it was unsuccessful, people were bullied into attending, the advertising was misleading and that the best part was the free danish. Seems to me that having a filter presents it’s own kind of danger as misinformation can easily be presented as fact to those who filter.
Like this.
Who do I deal with if I cant pay a bill at 2 am if Im not dealing with a company w good cust service- this sounds like a tech savvy-friendly self service sitch to me.
I imagine that TAG will come to your home and set things up for you (I have no idea either), assuming that you live in town. AZ can probably give you the number.
Yummy fluff.
msseeker:
I totally agree with your choice. There is no reason for a Chassidishe Lady to be on the internet. In most cases, I would suggest that you use the internet at your local library. In your case though, you are doing the right thing by preparing.
Hatzlacha!
Either way, i am comfortable saying that the statment that under no circumstances should internet be in a home, even for business even protected, is NOT a psak for rivivos alfei yisroel
As the OP said:
We heard the Psak Halacha issued by Gedolei HaPoskim regarding the permissibility of having internet access. Most notably Hagaon Haadir Posek Hador Ba’al Shevet Halevi HaRav Shmuel Wosner shlit”a, as directly stated himself live at the Kinus Klal Yisroel, Maran Hagaon HaRav Chaim Kanievsky shlit”a, as stated in his written letter, and the hundreds of Gedolei Yisroel attending the Asifa.
As was said in the Asifa, you now lose your Chelek in Olam Haba. B”H we will be in good company. IMHO, it is more likely that those who sacrifice Yiddishe Kinder for their personal gain, or for their own sense of superiority, will lose their Chelek. Not those such as yourself, who works towards a solution to one of the major issues in the Klal, the Shidduch Crisis.
As a Rov (who is known to not pull punches) pointed out, Rav Chaim has no idea what a video is, let alone internet. (This was from first hand experience). I can safely waive the P’sak of anyone from EY regarding any technology (even without pointing out the EY P’sakim have nothing to do with America, and are non-binding anyway).
AZ has been the most logical regarding the Asifa. The speakers (for the most part) talked……(deleted for YWN). Rabbi Yitzchok Adlerstein basicly says the same thing in Cross Currents. However, the point of introducing the concept of restricted internet to the RW Yeshivish and Chassidish communities (where the center already uses filters, and the MO also does or (for LWMO) don’t care) was worth the entire Asifa.
Barracuda, iPrism.
As an FYI, the problem with such a filter is that your children can simply disconnect it and reconnect the unfiltered internet.
Straw hats.
Baseball caps.
Grey hats.
Pageboy caps.
Green hats.
Ski masks.
Black hats.
All the same.
I consider my daughter reliable. She and others like her won’t accept a shidduch with a boy who uses the internet without a heter, even if it means staying single.
Excellent. This helps solve the shidduch crisis by taking girls off the market. Yasher Koach!