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an Israeli Yid:
Rabbi Hoffman writes well, but the article he wrote about the sefer was not a review of the sefer. I read both. Multiple times.As to Rabbi Shapiro’s portrayal of Zionism, his portrayal is absolutely right: any attempt to rewrite Hashem and/or the Torah out of the definition of a Jew (or even remix that), is heresy and absolutely unacceptable to Hashem and the Torah and, therefore, to any Jew who cares about the same. And that remix or excision of Hashem and the Torah from Judaism is Zionism. Whatever your preferred flavor.
greatwizzo and anonymous Jew:
The Satmar Rav did not on his own claim that the oaths are Halacha; rather, he lists numerous halachic authorities going all the way back who hold that they are halacha.It is rather silly to make pronouncements, and further insist, on matters in which one is obviously ignorant.
Regarding those who think that Zionism is a matter of history and not relevant anymore:
1. they should probably (re-)read Rabbi Shapiro’s sefer. You can postulate about post-Zionism as much as you want, but he brings specific examples to show that the State of Israel is very much a Zionist state, and that the core issues have not changed, just as any gadol would tell you.
2. they should note that the WZO is, unfortunately, still very much “real” and that R”L tens of thousands of (frum) Jews (according to the WZO’s web site) were recently fooled into voting in the recent WZO elections, against the vehement opposition to doing so by Rav Aharon Feldman, Rav Moshe Sternbuch, as well all of Lakewood/BMG and many, many others.Had more people (or their Rabbanim) learned Rabbi Shapiro’s sefer prior to the WZO voting period, then perhaps they would have known better than to join this wicked group (WZO/Zionism), etc.
I presume the OP’s issues are primarily with Rabbi Shapiro’s quotes from Rabbi H. Schachter of YU and, perhaps also, lbc”c of Rabbi AY Kook.
In his sefer, Rabbi Shapiro accords due respect, including rabbinic honorific (e.g. Rabbi or Rav) to each. Moreover, he limits his criticism to their views/stated points, for which there seems to be tremendous toeles in covering, not ad hominem attacks.
It’s also worth noting (both in general and regarding the L”H question) that Rabbi Shapiro did not make up these criticisms. The Satmar Rav wrote extremely strongly against Rabbi Kook, both his material and on Rabbi Kook himself.
Rabbi Shapiro also quotes Rav Schwab Zatza”l’s beautiful follow-up piece, “He who Loves does not Hate” in his “Selected Speeches”, to Rabbi Schachter’s article in “Journal of Halacha” about the alleged mitzva to slaughter Jews for the idol of Nationalism. Rabbi Shapiro also notes that lbc”c Rav Schwab wrote that he did not intend to attack lbc”c Rabbi Schachter publicly; however, his article was about “those like him”.
Bottom line: Rabbi Shapiro preserved their respective honor but covered the material as needed.
anonymous Jew:
Last you checked, the three oaths are not halacha?Have you ever opened any of the numerous sefarim by halachic decisors quoted by the Satmar Rav (and, lhbc”c, in Rabbi Shapiro’s sefer as well)?
As well, the Rambam invoked them as halacha in his Iggeres Teiman.
In other words, have you ever actually checked that they are not brought down halacha (as mentioned, they are brought down as halacha by numerous halachic decisors), or are you just assuming that?
Presumably because, even according to the “Modern Orthodox” (as Rabbi H. Schachter stated) you need to live where you will be the best Jew that you can be (and for your family as well).
So if, by moving to Israel, you become CH”V a Zionist (to any extent) then it’s probably smarter to avoid becoming an oveid A”Z and not move there.
Then there are also the issues of parnassa and family, elderly relatives, etc.
Avi K:
Every gadol of any stature from Rav Chaim Brisker (grandfather of your “Rav”) and on held very clearly that Zionism is an idol.Unfortunately, the Zionist shmad machine is immense, and that “Institution on the Hudson”, as Rav Keller Zatza”L put it very, very mildly, promotes as a religious value this idolatry of Zionism, along with other Maskilic values. So it’s not the fault of anyone who studied at that institution if they have absolutely no concept of authentic Judaism.
The naivete and sheer silliness of “Religious Zionism” is astounding. That’s not motzi shem ra; it’s simply fact and, again, as Rav Schwab wrote, the MO are to be pitied, not CH”V hated, for their heretical views (including Zionism) due to their controversial role models, etc.
Rav Schwab (among many others), under whose movement (TIDE) the MO tried to take cover, stated clearly that there is absolutely no masoretic source anywhere that allows for Zionism, and there is similarly no such source for the heresy of “Religious Zionism”.
E”Y *was* our home until Hashem kicked us out which we all say in every mussaf. While individual Jews may live there, we cannot move there en masse, as a people, until Mashiach comes. That’s even in a peaceful and non-political manner.
Unfortunately, about a century ago, the Zionists invaded large parts of E”Y and declared a State there while falsely claiming to represent the Jewish “nation”.
Moving there will not change any “balance of power”, but it will almost certainly result in massive Zionist shmad of those Jews, to varying extents (even if they still keep Shabbos and put on Tefillin), depending on how much they know about the idol of Zionism and how strong they stand in resisting that idol.
As akuperma said, moving there is, at best, moving from the frying pan to the fire.
DY:
No, it’s a very apt comparison.
In Israel, SOME of those Jews in the IDF may have died protecting Jews. Similarly, in other countries’ armies, Jews have also died protecting Jews (and, of course, other citizens of their host country, just like in Israel).So where is the comparable inherent holiness in, say, Arlington National Cemetery?
jdb:
I have no “political” concerns. I was coming from the perspective of religion, from the Torah.There is nothing that makes Mount Herzl holy, or at least not any holier than any other Jewish cemetery which has a wide range of Jews buried there. Mount Herzl, however, does have the distinct disadvantage of being a Zionist symbol, in addition.
Again, the fact is that the Zionists are (at the very, very least) secular. Many, if not all, of the decisions they make in their army are very likely NOT what the Torah would want. Therefore, their soldiers’ activities following those decisions are, also, very likely NOT what the Torah would want. Therefore, there is nothing particularly holy about that cemetery containing the bodies of those soldiers any more so than any other cemetery with bodies of Jews.
Chaim Baruch:
Please see the earlier part of this post.
Aish.com has, shall we say, Zionist leanings?
Both stories seem absurd and, by implication as presented, are heretical.
If some Jews (let’s say they are secular and even heretics) go to war in, say, South Africa, and don’t return, are they considered holy as a result? Obviously not. Same thing in Israel.Yichusdik, Mount Herzl is a Zionist military cemetery. Zionists fight in the Zionist army to promote or defend Zionism, not necessarily to save Jewish lives. In fact, sometimes, they fight knowing that they will be sacrificing Jewish lives, CH”V, whether for political or other considerations (more land, etc.).
Zionism, as we know, is anti-Jewish to the core, attempting to remake the Torah-based Jewish people into a new gentile Nation-State-based Hebrew people whose ancestors happened to have been Jewish. The Zionist army is obviously NOT a place of “kedusha”, in the Torah’s (i.e. non-Zionist) usage of the word.
So your characterization of those on Mount Herzl as “kedoshim” and “gave their lives to save Jews” seems “off”.
As well, your claim that visiting Mount Herzl could lead to Ahavas Yisrael is also strange. Would visiting a cemetery in the United States do the same? If not, then why would visiting one in Israel be any different?
KJ is, of course correct.
Regarding your reference to the United States, the OP’s question would be like asking if the continent of North America can count on British support. But that doesn’t make any sense. Do you mean Canada? The US? Mexico? All of the above? Two of the above? Parts of all three countries?
So if you mean to ask if, say, the United States can count on British support, it would be silly to write that as regarding the continent of North America rather than the United States.
Similarly, but liHavdil, Eretz Yisrael is a geographic area, not a political entity.
The State of Israel happens to be located on a large portion of the landmass of Eretz Yisrael, just as the United States happens to be located on a large portion of, liHavdil, the landmass of North America. That is, as you wrote, the reality “on the ground”.
So the OP’s title should obviously, read, “Can the Sate of Israel rely on..”, and not “Can E”Y rely on…”
frumtd:
The Satmar Rav was one of many gedolim who called belief in Zionism what it very obviously is: heresy and idolatry. Unlike those other gedolim, he also wrote multiple sefarim explaining the whole topic (rather brilliantly and comprehensively, at that – not that my opinion is worth anything).Your academic question of how, in light of that, one could visit E”Y, is not really a question (because visiting and even living in E”Y is not at all innately Zionistic). But even if it were a question, that would not therefore lead to your “obvious conclusion”.
The much more “obvious conclusion” is that one who has likely never even opened a VaYoel Moshe and whose knowledge of Zionism is limited to popular propaganda, Zionist and otherwise, should probably not be be drawing any “obvious conclusion”.
frumtd:
The Zionists require Jews under their rule to be shmaded and subjected to the big three cardinal sins, in their indoctrination camp of Zionism known as the IDF, as a pre-condition to employment.One need only observe all the “Chareidi”-owned and run businesses everywhere else in the world, including Satmar, to realize that our religious brethren in Israel are being denied the ability to work unless they choose to subject themselves to Zionist shmad.
Regarding “reevaluating their positions” after the Holocaust, this is almost an heretical statement. The correct lesson to take from the Holocaust is how it fit in with the rules of schar viOnesh (and if we can’t figure that out, then we’ll have to wait for Eliyahu HaNavi to tell us BB”A), not how to turn Klal Yisrael into yet another Gentile nation, as was and is the goal of Zionism.
In terms of how to deal with the State once it, very unfortunately, came into being, there were gedolim who held that the tactics of dealing with the problem of Zionism had to change given this reality. But that Zionism was and is a tremendous problem for Jews has never changed.
Avi K:
1. Actually, appealing to international bodies against Israel could, in fact, actually be a tremendous mitzva, if, for example, doing so saves Jews from Zionist shmad or saves Jewish lives.2. Their “fighting spirit” is far, far better used in a milchamta shel Torah in the Bais Midrash, not in the Zionist army whose specific purpose is to shmad them, to take the Torah away from them, in addition to “treating them to extreme doses of the big three cardinal sins (particularly, but not all limited to, if they were in actual combat units).
3. “HaTekufa HaGedola” contains “falsifications of fact”, as Zvi Weinman wrote both in a journal and in his book Mikatowitz Ad Hei B’Iyar (pp. 134-136). (From truetorahjews, about half-way through the article).
link removedReb Eliezer:
I think Joseph addressed well that AHS is not relevant here.Regarding the Mahara”M Schick (from the Chasam Sofer) that you quoted, though, he is very obviously NOT discussing voting in Zionist elections because he died close to a century before the Zionist state was even founded.
Furthermore, his sevara there obviously has zero to do with Zionist elections. First of all, much of Klal Yisrael, B”H, lives outside of Zionist rule. Whereas in “biblical” Egypt, it was everyone.
In addition, Reshaim voting in Zionist elections vs. liHavdil, tzaddikim who do not vote, has nothing to do with the Mahara”M Schick (from the Chasam Sofer) discussing having children and literally keeping Klal Yisrael going to the next generation.
In other words, regardless of who does and does not vote in Zionist elections, Klal Yisrael will definitely continue to the next generation, ad beas goel tzedek BB”A.
This barbaric practice still exists even after the dangers of these carcinogen sticks are so well known, R”L L”A??
I’m sure the chosson could give out something of benefit to his friends to achieve (an even better or) same result, and I imagine the kallah could do the same if that were necessary.
manitou:
Rather than address any of my points, you chose the “Satmar” attack.
I suppose that’s because the only fact you could contribute to the discussion is that you don’t like the facts I’ve written. Sorry about that.Wow. There’s so much confusion about this topic.
First, nobody proposes boycotting “E”Y”; they propose boycott the Zionist State of Israel. The two (E”Y and, liHavdil, the Zionist State of Israel) are diametrically opposed, not CH”V the same and not complementary.
So before you can even attempt to have an educated opinion on this topic, you have to be able to separate the holy land from the very unholy Zionist invasion and state the Zionists made there in E”Y.
Jewish Anti-Zionism is, as Joseph wrote, both de facto and de jure, both Pro-Torah and Pro-Judaism.
Moreover, even according to the Satmar Rav (the story to which he refers, as implied here, is a myth), a Gentile’s anti-Zionism does not at all mean that the Gentile is anti-Jewish. He could very well be more pro-Jewish than might be his pro-Zionist neighbor Gentile.
Anyone can see how true this is, if they have even a small understanding of the fraud, shmad and identity-theft of the Jewish people that is Zionism. In fact, if a Gentile understood how anti-Jewish, to the core, is Zionism, it would be ANTI-Jewish of them if they did NOT oppose Zionism. In other words, it is pro-Jewish to oppose Zionism.
According to some, Anti-Semitism is, in fact, one of the reasons the UN allowed the creation of the Zionist State.
Anti-Zionism is not NK, even though NK is anti-Zionist. NK’s methods, etc. may not be correct, but they are not at all the definition of anti-Zionism. They are simply a vocal minority that does what they feel needs to be done to draw attention to the fact that Zionism is anti-Jewish.
Anti-Zionism, meaning a part of being pro-Jewish, is simply recognizing at least some of the myriad evils that the Zionists have done and continue to do R”L L”A against our own Jewish people, and to recognize that, as Rav Saadiah Gaon wrote, Hashem made us a nation at Har Sinai based on the Torah, not a common land, etc.
E”Y serves as a holy land where individuals (not en masse) can grow spiritually, even in galus, though the Zionists have made even that very challenging in many ways, including attempting to shmad Klal Yisrael with their mandatory draft (of both men and women..like NK, as in North Korea) into their redefinition of Judaism/Zionist indoctrination engine known as the IDF.
When we merit it soon, BE”H, then E”Y will, of course, be the place where we will merit the building of the third Bais haMikdash after beas goel tzedek BB”A.
Charlie:
You seem to be conflating Zionism with, liHavdil, Chovivei Tzion, about which, incidentally, Rav SR Hirch and others were very against, and about which its founder ultimately expressed his regret.It’s simply impossible for any “Orthodox” Jew to be a proponent of what I wrote above – replacing Judaism with, liHavdil, an almost pagan land-based nationalist idol with some “Jewish” themes, etc.
Rabbi Soloveitchik proposed ideas (like Modern Orthodoxy and “Religious” Zionism) which were condemned by gedolim. So you can’t bring him as a support for Zionism. But even if you would bring him as a support, his students espouse positions about Zionism with which even he explicitly disagreed, and his stated reasons for supporting both “Modernity” and Zionism have been shown to be either irrelevant and/or wrong – certainly nowadays.
The Modern Orthodox “foolishness bordering on heresy” to quote Rav Schwab) has long been recognized as the silliness that it is, and the Zionist ideology and State/idol have long been exposed for the brazen heretical and idolatrous identity theft of Judaism that they are. Unfortunately, many are still taught this same “fossilized” (again, quote from Rav Schwab) nonsense with which no gadol even agreed.
besalel:
From where do you get that alleged definition of Zionism? It is simply not true and is also so simplistic that it couldn’t possibly be true. What would drive anyone to make a state only to immediately abdicate? Why would the Zionists insist on forced conscription of women, when that puts them on par with North Korea? Etc.Zionism was a Nationalist movement of the 1800s that sought to redefine Judaism and the Jewish nation from being one based on the Torah, to a nation based on a land. None of that has changed, unfortunately.
As Rav Chaim Brisker noted (way before the State was founded), people think that the Zionists shmad the Jews in order to achieve a State. In reality, it is the opposite: The Zionists need a State in order to shmad the Jews. Shmad is the goal. The State is merely the vehicle through which they perpetrate that shmad, R”L L”A.
besalel:
Zionism ended with the State? From where did you draw that conclusion? Certainly not from the Zionists who might know better about Zionism?But if you would know what Zionism is, then you would know just as well as any Zionist that, unfortunately, Zionism has most definitely NOT ended with the creation of the State.
You would also know that the larger issues with Zionism revolve not so much on its proponents and founders but, much more so, on the idolatry, heresy and identity theft of Judaism that is, liHavdil, Zionism.
Thank you, Joseph. I appreciate that.
Milhouse:
From where did you come up that these ideas that are allegedly Satmar ideas? I doubt that even NK holds that way, though, liHavdil, Satmar for sure does NOT hold like that. The Satmar Rav notes specifically that the Zionists could have peacefully ended their regime if they wanted to do so, and possibly still could do so even after the Zionists have (purposely) “inflamed” the region. Regardless, you cannot be machzik the Zionists.Instead of assuming what Satmar “seems” to hold, why not learn VaYoel Moshe and Al HaGeula viAl haTemura?
And from where did you come up with the alleged Chabad shita that the Zionist state “is the only thing that stands between millions of Jews and Holocaust Part II, r”l” This is mere Zionist propaganda and simply a bald lie (has anyone stopped to think how insane it is that a standard feature of an Israeli home is a “sealed room”!?), unless you mean that the Zionists are, in theory, protecting the residents of the parts of Eretz Yisrael that the Zionists have invaded.
Still, even that is not a reason to proactively support the Zionists. We daven for all our brethren worldwide, regardless of the government that rules the land in which they reside, but certainly not for the Zionist government.
Finally, your statement that — “If it happened, Hashem wanted it, and we have to deal with it.” and that, therefore, the State must NOT be a maaseh Satan — is simply not logical. What Hashem allows to happen versus what He “wants” are not at all necessarily the same.
Just as Hashem allowed the Eigel to come into existence, He also allowed the State to come into existence. While on the topic of the Eigel and the State, the Brisker Rav (not Satmar rav) noted that the State of the Zionists is the greatest achievement of the Satan since the Eigel haZahav.
The greatest Torah sages of the past century and beyond have blasted Zionism for the idolatry and heresy that it proudly is.
Rabbi Teichtal’s book was written during very desperate times and his introduction in any event states not to rely on it as a support for any -ism.
We’ve gone over this way too many times: the State is idolatry and heresy and a colossal chilul Hashem, not to mention communist-textbook-case propaganda and identity theft of the Jewish nation.
The gedolim were and are quite clear about the cataclysmic disaster for the Jewish people that was Zionism.
The Rambam who the MO love so much brought down the oaths in Iggeres Teiman. The Satmar Rav answers all the nonsense that Zionists try to bring up in a desperate attempt to hold on to their idols. Might as well just give it up.
jacoby211:
I don’t think he was questioning how much learning they do in MO places.
As Rav Schwab begged the MO decades ago, they should abandon their stale and fossilized “modernity” and join the true modern Orthodox, the traditional Orthodox binei Torah.
DaMoshe:
AS DY pointed out, the word “Modern” is in the title of the thread. Given the gedolim’s views on “MO”, it would not appear likely that this thread would thus be to your liking.
Burnt Steak:
As stated on their web site, OJ is not “MO”, even if they attract a variety of students.
From their site: “Yeshivat Ohr Yerushalayim is unaffiliated politically or philosophically with any political parties or formal religious movements. Its goal is to emphasize the primacy of high level Torah study and love of Klal Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael.”
The last line, however, does, at first glance, seem to neatly align with MO’s “Am Yisrael, Torat Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael”, which probably makes it attractive to MO.
Looking at it more closely, however, they note (in English) “limud haTorah”, not “Torat Yisrael”, and “Klal Yisrael” rather than “Am Yisrael”. Those particular word choices imply Torah-true orthodoxy, not “MO”. But it’s probably still “kosher” for “MO”, too.
The Brisker Rav stated that had the Jews in 1948 davened for the true geulah then they would have gotten that and Mashiach would have come. But since they davened for this heretical State of Israel instead, Hashem gave them that instead. This was the reason the State unfortunately came into being and also what severely derailed your “incontrovertible proof”.
In other words, after the great suffering from Germany, we would have had Mashiach in the 1940s, but, instead, the “Religious” Zionists (and perhaps others, liChaOra) ruined it by davening for this idol State instead of davening for, lihavdil, Mashiach.
At this point, instead of Mashiach, you have a State that has cost rivers of Jewish blood to create and maintain, not to mention the shmad of hundreds of thousands of acheinu binei Yisrael. And after all those human sacrifices on the altar of Zionism, the Zionists need their citizens to be armed as they walk around the streets so that they can ward off the savages with knives, etc. Hashem Yishmor, and they want to spend Billions (with a “B”) of dollars to turn the Zionist paradise into one big ghetto. In other words, the State has, of course, been a tremendous failure (at best) both spiritually and physically, despite the scientific awards, etc. of the Jews there. Yet you still believe in this idol.
As the Brisker Rav noted, the State they have managed to achieve is the greatest triumph of the Satan since the cheit haEigel. Nothing since the Eigel has topped this. Yet you maintain this fantasy that the State was a good thing in spite of this and in spite of the multitude of massive disasters that the State has wrought on Klal Yisrael.
As mentioned before, if anyone wonders how it is possible that only 600 people in all of Klal Yisrael did not bow down to the baal idol in the time of Eliyahu HaNavi, one need only look at Zionism today to understand.
No. What you see as “incontrovertible” is deluded (due to idolatry) and simply illogical, even if the sources in reality do imply what you claim.
First some basic facts, as per our gedolim.
The heretical (and disastrous on so many levels) State of Israel has pushed off the geula, CH”V. The “Reishis Tzemichas Geulaseinu” Zionist fantasy was based on a fraud, so that’s nonsense in and of itself.
Next, we have your sources.
Germany was definitely terrible to the Jews in WW II. (The Zionists did their part, too, but that is somewhat tangential here.)
Regarding the returning to Eretz Yisrael, there could certainly be a limited return to Eretz Yisrael before Mashiach comes. Individual Jews have the right to live in E”Y so long as their move to E”Y does not constitute an aliya biChoma and violate the oaths, CH”V. Political sovereignty is strictly forbidden due to dechikas haKeitz, so that rules out the State as a non-starter, Zionist fantasies not withstanding.
So this is irrelevant to the State; you’ve conflated living in E”Y and, lihavdil, the heretical State of Israel, which is typical of Zionists, whether “Religious Zionist” or otherwise.
Zionism is a massive physical churban, too.
The Zionists successfully lobbied governments AGAINST allowing Jews during WW II in to their respective countries.
The Zionists, who claimed to and were given to represent world Jewry for around a century, considered Zionism to be the greatest priority over everything including Jewish lives, and therefore insisted that Jews somehow get to Palestine or suffer their fate by the Nazi mass murderers.
Think about that for a minute, especially given their lies about being protectors of Jews. With friends like that…
Besides for the spiritual cause of the Holocaust, the Zionists very much did their physical share, too, including what was mentioned above. The motto of Zionism during WW II was “rak beDam tihye lanu haAretz”, and that meant Jewish blood.
Zionists today would be wise to avoid WW II in their attempted defense of their idol.
And the inflammation of the Arab world is also a physical problem of the State, not “only” a spiritual one.
Zionism has been and is a uniquely disastrous calamity for the Jewish people.
ROB:
While everyone is entitled to their own opinions, that is not the case with facts. The Zionists started Zionism for the simple reason that they wanted to be accepted by the gentiles as part of their club. This is fact.
Read the Holocaust literature: the Zionists admit that Zionism was and is the greatest value above all else, including above saving lives. The Zionists have intentionally and otherwise, and admittedly so, endangered and forfeited Jewish lives in WW II and in Israel, Zionist lies and propaganda not withstanding.
Zionism has been an absolute disaster for the Jewish people. Zionism is idolatry and heresy, and the Zionists have no answers.
ROB:
How dare you conflate your idol with “Eretz Yisrael” and accuse Health and others of “seeing only the bad in E”Y”? CH”V.
Health and others very clearly distinguished between the land and, liHavdil, your idol of Zionism.
Avi K:
Most of your post doesn’t apply to mine. Regardless, your own “Rav” admits that MO is a radical new invention.
Sam2:
We’ve discussed this before. The theology is indisputably erroneous. But the gedolim still hoped that the MO would return to the mesorah of unadulterated Torah from Har Sinai.
Luna Lovegood:
The Zionists themselves have already disproved your theories about Zionist protection. The Zionists created and maintain their state solely for the sake of Zionism, and not to protect Jews as, again, they have more than amply demonstrated both before and after 1948.
Regardless, your choice of being a Zionist, with the faith in the Zionists that comes with that, has zero religious backing, contrary to Zionist belief.
May Hashem protect all His children, wherever they may be.
yichusdik:
This has zero to do with any opinion of mine – I merely quoted – and it is plain fact that MO has zero historical authenticity. We have gone over this in many other threads.
Joseph has quoted your “Rav”‘s “chameish drashot”, where he clearly states that MO was a radical new invention that he thought was necessary, that Traditional Orthodoxy would become a museum piece, etc.
With the benefit of hindsight, this is obviously not the case. That’s besides for the gedolim’s clear and strong condemnation of MO, Zionism, etc. with one even specifically stating explicitly that your “Rav” cannot be considered as a link in the mesorah from Sinai.
Again, it is absurd to suggest that “shiv’im panim laTorah” can justify a non-starter like MO, Zionism or any other kefirah, A”Z, etc.
Nonetheless, Rav Schwab seemed to recognize that MO was simply misguided and, therefore, implored them to return to the Torah. And, yes, he addressed MO as “our achim baEidah”.
yichusdik:
Shiv’im panim laTorah applies only to Torah approaches, not to those outside of Torah like MO, as many gedolim have clearly stated and even entreated the MO to return.
MDG:
There is no reason that my posts should cause you anguish unless I somehow offended you personally, which I cannot recall doing.
Of course, if I have offended you personally, please tell me how I have done so; I certainly did not intend to do so. Moreover, my prior post was simply factual.
So instead of “losing it” and violating this severe prohibition (and continuing to insult me, too), you could have simply asked me respectfully, regardless of whether or not you think I engaged in “name calling” and “insult left and right” towards anyone else.
I still don’t understand why, for example, my post to ROB, would elicit the reaction from you that it did.
MDG:
I assume your misspelling of “HaKatan” was not intentional because you are surely aware that calling someone a derogatory nickname causes one to lose their Olam Haba. Certainly, you did not mean kesem as in “?????? ?????? ???? ??????? ???????” which is obviously not relevant here.
You greatly misunderstood my post. Rabbi Akiva was, of course, NOT naive. Bar Koziva was so great that, unfortunately, he was able to fool even Rabbi Akiva.
Regarding the Nazi leader, the recorded historical facts are not in accordance with Zionist whitewashes of their abominable behavior before, during and after WW II. Again, Rav Hutner (who also lived before, during and after WW II, including in E”Y) and others wrote about this. Rav Weissmandl also wrote much on this subject.
The Zionists have no answers.
ROB:
You have no answers for your idolatry and heresy. This has all been discussed numerous times. As well, when you bring up matters like Bar Koziva and the Holocaust, you are hurting, not helping, your idol.
May Hashem illuminate your eyes (and the rest of Klal Yisrael fooled by this evil idolatry and heresy) and guide you (and them) to the correct path, to His Torah.
ROB and others:
Of course, in a free society, everyone is entitled to their views. But, for Torah, there is only “eilu viEilu” for Torah-conforming views, which, as discussed, does not include Zionism. Your idolatry is not, CH”V, Torah.
Regarding this despicable libel on gedolim, it is worth pointing out that the Chazon Ish wrote that people who blame the gedolim for deaths in the holocaust are apikorsim.
Had the Zionists not declared war on Hitler in the name of world Jewry, and had they not lobbied governments to not allow Jews in to their country, etc. Rav Hutner wrote on this subject as did many others. No, it was not because of “the gedolim”.
MDG:
About what specifically are you asking for a source? This is not a chiddush.
ROB:
“kitzvaos uKAyalos haSadeh” essentially means “open-season on…just like hunted animals” CH”V.
Your complete submission to your idol keeps you in deep denial of history and reality. Millions of Jews were murdered in WW II, and various gedolim at the time had warned about that punishment that then came as a result of Jews worshiping this idol of Zionism. The Satmar Rav states clearly in his sefer the direct cause-and-effect, etc.
Your idolatrous government, despite its vaunted military (of shmad), etc. is pathetically ineffective against the savages who murdered and maimed so many Jews in E”Y, including a recent tragedy, where the savages’ murdered a Kallah’s brother and father, both, just before her wedding. That is very simply “open-season”. R”L L”A.
So there is nothing left to prove; it has already been amply proven, Hashem Yiracheim. Your idolatry just doesn’t allow you to see reality, so you have no choice but to insist on futilely attempting to defend the indefensible.
ROB:
As usual, you inadvertently serve to only discredit your idol instead of “helping it”. As a bonus, you seriously strain credibility of your usage of the word “rabbi” in your name.
Bar Kochba is known as “Bar Koziva”; in other words, a fraud.
Rivers of Jewish blood (literally) were spilled as a result of his rebellion, due to the violation of the oaths.
Rabbi Akiva backed Bar Koziva precisely and only because he fooled Rabbi Akiva into believing that he, BK, was Mashiach, at which point the oaths would no longer apply.
Your implied assertion, from BK’s war having happened before the gemara was compiled, is absurd.
The prohibition was merely recorded in the gemara then, not that it was any secret until that point nor was it not in force until that time, of course. The binei Ephraim (who escaped the inescapable Egypt) were nonetheless ch”v killed en route to E”Y when they violated the Oaths and left Egypt early (due to a miscalculation, of course, and not, CH”V, as an intentional rebellion).
Finally, your utter disregard for Rab Hirsch’s words is also distasteful.
The Zionists have no answers for their heresy and idolatry, and make themselves and their idol look silly when they try to defend the indefensible.
Matan1:
Is that not obvious, as noted by Rav Aharon Feldman and others?
Here are some quotes from Rav Aharon Feldman on this topic:
And:
Rav Elchonon Wasserman stated that the Zionists are the erev rav of today, and the Gra seems to have predicted the same.
Rav Steinman is quoted as having said the same, too.
Avi K:
You have not “proven” and such thing and the Satmar Rav, addresses this particular pathetic argument against the oaths in his sefer. Others do, as well, though of course it’s absurd to even suggest that the oaths don’t apply any more.
It is good that, at least, you admit to the possibility of them being in force.
The oaths are unequivocally in force, and the Zionists have no answers.
Sam2:
Are discussing the Torah here or something else?
What does “oaths from a navi” even mean?
The Zionist claim that the oaths are not binding is, of course, a non-starter since even the Zionists struggle mightily to dispense with them in other ways.
What part of “oneiss – Rachmana patreih” was not clear?
Again, why haven’t you brought korbanos? The Torah clearly requires one to do so.
This is absurd.
Avi K:
Ironic how the Zionists choose which gemaras to “hold of” (and to then twist to support their idolatry) and which ones to not hold of (to support their idolatry). This is, of course, in addition to the heresy of Zionism.
Your denial of what Zionism means is unfortunate, but even based on your own words, it is absolutely forbidden for Jews to have political sovereignty in E”Y and, therefore, in your own words, forbidden to be a Zionist.
ROB:
Regarding your post to DY, we discussed this already numerous times.
Yes, everything is min haShamayim, of course. Included in that is that Hashem also allows the Satan to test Klal Yisrael.
The Brisker Rav stated explicitly that the Zionists’ achievement in founding their idolatrous, heretical and dissastrous State (pushing off Mashiach in the process) is the greatest achievement of the Satan since the cheit haEigel.
The Zionists have no answers for their abomination.
ROB:
This is a relatively new law and cannot account for the decades in which the Zionists cruelly did not permit this.
As well, even with the law, one wonders if the “employer on the street” would hire a chareidi with the requisite skills despite his having not served in the army or would he be a loyal Zionist and not do so.
As well:
How are they supposed to feel their families until age 26 when the Zionists still forbid them from working?
Regarding Zionism, see the other threads.
You can’t define Zionism as “wanting to live in E”Y” or anything like that because that is simply not its definition.
Zionism is, simply, the identity theft and desire to “normalize” the Jewish people by changing it from a people based on the Torah into, lihavdil, a nationalist people based solely on a land (which happens to be E”Y) just so the Zionists could feel like they’re in the same club as the Gentiles. That’s Zionism.
Our greatest sages for around the past century have stated categorically and unequivocally that Zionism is idolatry, heresy and, obviously, is anti-Jewish to its core.
Avi K:
The Zionists do not allow chareidim in E”Y to get a job unless they submit themselves to its unique shmad, gilui arayos, et al. that is IDF service. If your idol would do away with that evil policy of theirs then the chareidim in E”Y will be able to work.
Until then, your idol is the reason they cannot work and their families live in poverty, etc. R”L L”A.
Sam2:
First, it is the MO and “RZ” that have exchanged portions of the Torah for, liHavdil, Zionism. They are the ones who are violating ikrei emunah, not myself and certainly not those I’ve quoted.
Regardless, I am surprised that you posted this. Accusing me of CH”V changing the Torah based on that post does not at all make sense. When’s the last time you brought a korban to the Bais HaMikdash? Why not? Are you changing the Torah?
Surely you are more than familiar with “Oneis – Rachmana Patrei”? The Torah certainly has NOT changed. CH”V. But this is galus and the three oaths apply in galus until Mashiach’s arrival BB”A.
In any event, I suppose that, as usual, the Zionists feel they know better than the likes of the Satmar Rav, (quoted by Rav Ovadia Yosef, as I mentioned) and the other Torah giants.
The Zionists have no answers.
Avi K:
Please see the previous posts.
Going back to the time of the Melachim, there were only 600 that didn’t bow to the Baal. That’s even with Eliyahu HaNavi in their midst. But when he called them out on it at Har HaCarmel, they at least said Hashem Hu HaElokim. Unfortunately, we don’t have a navi today to do so about Zionism. Fortunately, all it takes is a PURE Torah outlook to understand the simple truth of the gedolim’s many condemnations of Zionism (of all stripes).
The gedolim have clearly and unequivocally showed that the Zionists have no answers (including Rabbis Kook and Soloveitchik and on down). It is a great shame for people who think they are Torah-believing Jews to believe in this abominable false idol and heresy of Zionism that has also done cataclysmic damage to our People, R”L L”A.