HaKatan

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  • in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005781
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Avram:

    CH”V, I do not wish to accuse and do not wish to speak L”H about anyone and certainly not about the majority of Klal Yisrael.

    The only frum segments of Klal Yisrael, in my understanding, who themselves profess to believe in Zionism as a part of their faith are “MO” and “Religious Zionism”. Of those who identify with one or both of those, many probably don’t even realize what it is they are being taught, R”L, which is part of the reason for my humble posts here, to clarify the matters and not, CH”V, to accuse anyone.

    I very much regret if I implied otherwise.

    However, it does seem that many frum Jews from other segments are woefully misinformed about Zionism. Again, this, too is part of the reason for my humble posts here.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005780
    HaKatan
    Participant

    DaasYochid and Avram (and others):

    As I have written many times, I do not wish to condemn anyone.

    I have never concluded from that Rav Elchonon or anywhere else that this therefore means that a person who unfortunately believes in Zionism as part of, lihavdil, his Judaism is any less neeman, or that his yayin is yayin nesech, etc.

    But Rav Elchonon said what he said, as did the Brisker Rav and others. This is not a chidush.

    If it is true that halachicly their yayin is yayin nesech, etc. then this is something for a posek to decide. Again, I have never said anything like that. Ask your LOR.

    I simply attempted to repeat the Torah hashkafa on the matter, as expressed by gedolim, so that people do not base their Torah view on “misinformation”.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005769
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Just Emes:

    It is historical fact that the chareidi leadership did not want the State of Israel and tried hard to prevent the Zionists from hijacking our faith and national identity.

    You are simply making things up and contradicting the halachic (and practical) opinion of gedolim who lived in Eretz Yisrael in 1948. Surely the Brisker Rav and others were quite aware of “haba liHargicha” and just as surely were quite certain that this had zero to do with declaring a State which they ruled was assur and a massive sakana and worse, R”L L”A.

    Your post is not emes.

    Zionism and the State are an unparalleled disaster, and the founding the State – regardless of who runs it – was against halacha in numerous ways.

    The Zionists have no answer.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005768
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Just Emes:

    I already mentioned that your UN sevaras are faulty. No, the UN vote to partition did not bind other nations and, in fact, the British abstained from that vote.

    Regardless, the Arabs did not agree.

    Further, the Zionists knew perfectly well that it would take a war and sacrifice of Jewish lives at the idolatrous altar of founding their State, which it, unfortunately did.

    They knew it was AT BEST a 50/50 chance that their foolish war would NOT CH”V be a massive bloodbath of Jewish blood which, B”H, Hashem spared His people.

    As well, the Zionists aggressively and offensively took more than even the UN voted to allow them and against the wishes of the chareidim living there as well.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005767
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Sam2:

    Thank you.

    Just Emes:

    Your premises and historical understandings are simply not emes.

    Once again, “we” did not declare a state; the Zionists did so against “our” will.

    It would also be wise for Pro-Zionists to avoid mentioning the Holocaust and collaboration and issues like that, unless they want Zionism to be exposed for what it truly is: thoroughly anti-Jewish (and inhumane) to the core. See the other threads (and historical sources).

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005762
    HaKatan
    Participant

    rationalfrummie:

    Actually, they are. The Rambam himself warned in Igeres Teiman that the Jews there should not violate the oaths.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005761
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Simcha613:

    There are practical implications to understanding that the State was and is assur to have been founded.

    For example, when those misguided Jews realize that this State was indisputably founded in severe sin, they are less likely to continue doing as Rav Elchonon wrote and as Rabbi JB Soloveichik quoted from his father, which is to fuse the A”Z of Zionism with, lihavdil, their Judaism.

    Instead, they will, presumably, revert to their pre-Zionist unadulterated Judaism as do the portion of Jewry who have B”H seen past the lies of Zionism.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005760
    HaKatan
    Participant

    ROB:

    Whatever interpretation you have of my posts, which I incidentally do not agree with, you have no right to personally attack anyone, my humble self included.

    As to the oaths, why do you continue to bring up Melech haMashiach with regards to the three oaths?

    You are still trying to claim the oaths don’t apply because of Melech HaMashiach, who will reign post-galus?

    Perhaps Sam2 or some of the other learned ones here can explain this.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005755
    HaKatan
    Participant

    ROB:

    Thank you for the personal attack. I would think that kol haPosel biMumo posel might be relevant here.

    The oaths apply “ad sheTechpatz”. Once we have been redeemed, BB”A, then there are no oaths. The gemara in Shabbos states that the difference between galus and afterwards is shibud malchiyus. We will not be ruled by the nations any more so there will be no possibility of rebellion. You can’t rebel against someone who doesn’t rule over you.

    Please tell us where in the Rambam’s Mishneh Torah and in his peirush haMishnayos he says differently than the clear meaning of the midrash and, indeed, simple logic.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005753
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Just Emes:

    As to the rest of your post:

    Your point 1 is irrelevant; the indisputable fact is that Israel was not founded biShalom.

    Your point 2 is simply a fantasy and propaganda, as I explained numerous times. The Zionists themselves admit they took a foolish and tremendous gamble with Jewish lives, and (in 1948 alone) did sacrifice thousands of Jewish lives, for this idol.

    Regarding your alleged Halacha, just because you make up a story about Rav Moshe, that doesn’t change the halacha berura. Pikuach nefesh is not nidche for Zionist idolatry. Founding the State of Israel undeniably and needlessly cost Jewish lives. (The oaths also apply.)

    Case definitely closed, as you write.

    As written above, Zionism was and is A”Z according to multiple gedolim, and founding the State was also clearly assur for additional reasons as described above.

    Again, the Zionists have no answers.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005752
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Just Emes:

    I have asked multiple times (and you still haven’t answered) why the Zionists should be any more worthy of hakaras haTov than the Romans biYimos haMashiach.

    At least the Romans were goyim, and Esav sonei liYaakov. Same with Mitzrayim: they were goyim who did host us in their land. You make a kal sheKein from them to Zionist “Jews” (who made a deal back in Ben Gurion’s days, as I also wrote)?

    (You also conveniently ignore that the Zionists and Israel have shmaded our brethren and continue to do so, which is an historically unparalleled tragedy.)

    Your reasoning doesn’t make sense to me.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005750
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Syag:

    Oh, I thought it was your idea, not whichever mod.

    No need to answer the question, then, I suppose.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005748
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Syag:

    Thank you for the suggestion.

    Out of curiosity, since your subtitle asks, is it Lashon HaRa to write, as you did to me, “try choosing your words with more thought and less saliva.”?

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005746
    HaKatan
    Participant

    ROB:

    Are you seriously asking a question on the oaths from what Mashiach will do? I don’t want anyone to take anything “personally”, so I’ll stop there.

    And even the Rav Meir Simcha that Zionists love to distort clearly claims the oaths are applicable to Zionism.

    DaMoshe:

    I’m sorry you disagree with Rav Elchonon. I am also sorry you somehow feel that this is my problem because I quoted his holy words. I did not call you personally an oveid A”Z, and I simply repeated Rav Elchonon’s holy words.

    I also apologized three times if my words hurt anyone, regardless.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005743
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Just Emes (cont.):

    The Zionist claim from the Or Sameach, who never permitted sovereignty, which is assur regardless of peaceful ascent, has already been debunked numerous times. He only addressed peaceful ascent, based on the League of Nations, not sovereignty.

    The oaths certainly do apply to Zionism, and it is simply not possible to claim otherwise.

    In addition, the pikuach nefesh problem alone, when the Zionists knew they had AT BEST a 50/50 chance of them succeeding (with, CH”V, many losses of Jewish life regardless), is enough to have forbidden founding the state.

    The Zionists have no answers.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005742
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Just Emes:

    If you really have studied the sugya then, for starters, your history must be different than what actually happened.

    Again, you refuse to accept that your “B”D of Klal Yisrael” understanding is simply wrong, as I have written at least twice. If you read the HaPardes and the Brisker Rav’s words, this is quite clear.

    You claim the State was declared in peace? This, too, is not emes. There were months of fighting before that formal declaration, including, famously, the bombing of a British government building in Yerushalayim. And the Zionists went on the offensive, not defensive, after the declaration to take Yerushalayim, which nobody gave them permission to do.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005741
    HaKatan
    Participant

    DaMoshe (and others):

    For the third time, I humbly ask mechila from you and anyone else who may have been hurt by anything I have written or will write.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005726
    HaKatan
    Participant

    DaasYochid:

    Thank you.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005725
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Syag:

    I don’t understand.

    Please explain where you feel there is a need to do teshuva.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005724
    HaKatan
    Participant

    simcha613:

    I’m sure Rav Elchonon was careful in the words he chose and that he meant exactly what he wrote.

    First, I am not looking to judge anybody. I’m also not sure what zealotry has to do with this. I certainly agree that our MO and “Religious Zionist” brethren do not intend to CH”V worship idols.

    I am merely pointing out what Rav Elchonon and others wrote. Rabbi JB Soloveichik, too, said that his father also held that Zionism is A”Z.

    So this is not a radical idea, and that’s what great rabbanim paskened.

    You have a kasha of what about most of the world that has been fooled by Zionism?

    Ask your LOR how this is resolved. But Rav Elchonon’s psak that Zionism is A”Z does not change.

    I suppose it wouldn’t help your incredulity to point out that a shockingly large part of Klal Yisrael during Eliyahu haNavi’s time worshipped the Baal. That’s with Eliyahu haNavi in their midst. Today, with the yeridas haDoros and no navi, why is it so shocking that so many people would fall prey to the lies of Zionism?

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005722
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Sam2:

    No, it’s very much not a personal attack.

    Where is the “person” and, for that matter, where is the “attack”?

    The “if you are…” was clearly a hypothetical “you”, and not referring to any particular person.

    So I’ll avoid using the word “you” in this post, in case that helps.

    Again, I don’t see why some here get all upset about my mentioning this Rav Elchonon. If the “MO” somehow feel they have a legitimate halachic way to hold differently than Rav Elchonon, then why would it even bother the “MO”?

    Again, this is not personal, and I don’t understand how anyone can possibly construe it in that manner.

    Regardless, once again, I humbly ask mechila from anyone who may have been offended by anything I have written or will write.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005715
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Regarding your “yes or no” questions, I already mentioned the Chazal about the Romans and the bathhouses they built and Hashem’s answer to their claim for reward.

    Please answer yes or no if you feel that Hashem is, CH”V, kafui tov, for rejecting the Roman’s claim. (Of course, Hashem will have rewarded them in some other way because He doesn’t hold back reward from anyone.)

    Once you’ve done that, please explain why Israel and the IDF should be any better.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005714
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Regarding your point #2, it was not some innocuous survival idea. The Zionists wanted Jews to be accepted as goyim so after Jews turned down Herzl’s idea of baptism CH”V, they came up with the idea of converting Judaism itself into a goyish Nationalist faith instead.

    Regarding the majority of (or even any) “Gedolim being for [the State]”, I have already (at least twice in this thread) explained how this is not the case.

    As to Hashgacha post WW-II, even the Brisker Rav is quoted as saying that the Balfour Declaration (even before WW II) was a “smile” from heaven. Unfortunately, the Zionists (and, seemingly, the B”D of Klal Yisrael, as you keep mentioning) turned that smile into the disaster that was and is the State of Israel rather than the true geulah.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005713
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Just Emes:

    Based on your latest post, it is clear that you simply believe the standard Zionist propaganda about Zionism and Israel, and you are not aware of the various historical and halachic issues that pertain to Zionism and the State of Israel.

    In my humble understanding, your views are definitely not “emes”.

    For example, it is not emes that the State would be in any way acceptable if it were “religious”.

    Before you claim to me that I “need to understand a few things”, you might want to learn “the sugya” first.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005712
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Avram:

    I disagree that the “behavior would be the same regardless of what the IDF does”.

    The Jewish way in galus, which the Zionists flagrantly violate, is to “lay low” and be good citizens. Calling attention to one’s self in an unfriendly environment is simply foolish. We are in galus, etc.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005711
    HaKatan
    Participant

    vashti_schwartz:

    Because this religion is not based on “feelings” but on what the Torah wants.

    Please explain the halachic gedarim of hakaras haTov and how you feel every IDF soldier fits those gedarim.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005710
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Sam2 and DaMoshe:

    I don’t agree that my repeating a bifeirush Rav Elchonon in his name “makes it personal”, especially in an anonymous forum. I simply repeated what Rav Elchonon and others have stated and he states clearly that Zionism is A”Z.

    So, according to Rav Elchonon, if you are a proud Zionist (which, according to their theology, includes “MO”) then that makes you a proud oveid A”Z. I fail to see the reason for anyone taking offense to this.

    However, to clarify, I certainly never intended to personally malign anyone. So, if anyone feels personally offended by my repeating Rav Elchonon’s words or anything else I might have written or will write, I humbly ask your mechila.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005699
    HaKatan
    Participant

    (cont.)

    Just the pikuach nefesh problem alone, without the issues of the oaths and the kefira in emuna, is enough to have forbid founding the state.

    But the oaths definitely were violated:

    1 – There was no permission by all goyim to found the State, specifically the native Arabs and the British as well;

    2 – The Zionists fought an offensive war to take more than they were originally allowed by the UN

    3 – Any necessity for war makes the founding of the State violate the oath of being oleh biChoma, which even that alleged Meshech Chachma that the Zionists try to distort does not permit.

    The Zionists have no answers.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005698
    HaKatan
    Participant

    torahlishma613:

    Where does it say that we can break our oaths if the nations break their oath?

    It doesn’t. This is another Zionist attempt at wishing away the oaths.

    If one understands that the purpose of the oaths is to protect us, not as a punishment, then one would realize that this proposition, of two wrongs making a right, is a non-starter.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005697
    HaKatan
    Participant

    DaMoshe:

    What sinas chinam? I don’t understand.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005696
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Perhaps my other posts were too long. I’ll try breaking down my responses one at a time.

    Just Emes:

    Just because you claim a Rav Moshe story happened that way does not wish away the many problems of Zionism. The State’s creation, according to all our gedolim including, for sure, Rav Moshe, was certainly a problem, and for multiple reasons.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005689
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Assaf, please don’t misunderstand this discussion, which is academic.

    I wish you G-d’s help to do good for His children, and may you always return home safely and complete in mind and body.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005672
    HaKatan
    Participant

    jbaldy:

    I disagree; it is relevant.

    Regardless, do French soldiers not provide a similar service to the Jews in France? Where is your hakaras haTov to those soldiers? Why is the IDF any different in this regard?

    Are you makir tov to every person who has done anything for any Jew anywhere? This is ridiculous. Or Avoda Zara. Whichever you pick…

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005666
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Just Emes:

    I recall the thread from which you copy and pasted that whole post from. I presume you felt it would be better for me to repeat myself rather than copy my own responses in that thread.

    Regardless, what comes out from your post is as follows:

    There is nobody of note who seriously believes that the Zionists had a halachic right to found their State.

    (Even the Zionists know that they had, AT BEST, a 50/50 chance of succeeding, viHaRaaya, look at what it took. So the pikuach nefesh alone would have been reason to not declare the State, even without the issue of the oaths.)

    Even if your mistaken cheshbon regarding the UN was correct, which it is factually not, that would only cover the oath of being oleh biChoma.

    It doesn’t mention that the Zionists took land which they were forbidden to take, like “West Jerusalem”. The UN intended that to be an international city, and it likely would have become an international city had the Zionists not brazenly chosen to go on the offensive and attack and try to conquer the Jerusalem, at which point they brought the Jordanians into the war and further sakana that this entailed. But that part was definitely biChoma and against the will of the nations.

    But it would anyways NOT cover the oath of being madchik haKeitz, of having sovereignty before Mashiach, even with full permission, or even coercion to do so, of every single gentile on the planet.

    So that’s anyways a non-starter.

    Regarding this “B”D of Klal Yisrael”, you are grossly misunderstanding this.

    As the Brisker Rav stated, the reason the state came into being is that Jews in Meah Shearim davened for the State instead of Mashiach and, as the poster there quoted Rav Weintraub, because the “B”D of Klal Yisrael” paskened that the State should come into action, EVEN THOUGH THEY PASKENED INCORRECTLY!

    The Brisker Rav and the others held, and this is clear in hindsight, that this “B”D” was wrong in their pask, rationale, and hashkafa.

    Psak: It was and is assur to have founded that State. Nothing to talk about.

    Rationale: if you look at that “HaPardes”, the “B”D”‘s “support” for a State was CONDITIONAL on the following two items (at least those two, as I recall), none of which were kept by the Zionists:

    1 – The State would be established peacefully and with no bloodshed.

    2 – The State would not interfere with religious matters.

    So their rationale was disproven.

    Hashkafa: Their assumption was that since politically it seemed like the State was going to happen that they might as well go along for the ride. As the Brisker Rav noted, Hashem doesn’t look at what Reshaim do; but he does look at what Tzaddikim do.

    And since these Tzaddikim paskened there should be a State (albeit conditionally), Hashem fulfilled their psak – with the disastrous results that we have seen, R”L L”A.

    As I wrote in that post, the Zionists have no answers.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005664
    HaKatan
    Participant

    jbaldy:

    There is a difference between arvus and hakaras haTov.

    Arvus means you daven for the people living there, not worship their idols.

    DaasYochid:

    I’m sorry you’re unimpressed.

    But I think that sentiment should be reserved for your own arguments. Do I really think Hamas doesn’t want to destroy Jews outside Eretz Yisrael? What does Hamas care about anything outside Eretz Yisrael? Even if they did care, their fight is certainly not with any country other than Israel. What are you talking about?

    As to jbaldy, please see my answer above.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005663
    HaKatan
    Participant

    bklynmom:

    Yes, it is a no-brainer.

    But the yetzer hara for this avoda zara of Zionism is so strong that people come to the completely opposite conclusion of what is staring them in the face.

    If not for Zionism there never would have been an Entebbe. All that is anyways irrelevant.

    Zionism is shmad. The Zionists have thrown Jews out of their houses and are plotting to throw many more out of the Beis Medrash, which is their country’s literal lifeblood. Yet people still want to daven for their success?

    As well, there is a fundamental difference between generally davening for success of the Zionists and the davening for the Czar that you refer to. Davening for the Czar was in the context that Hashem should have him treat the Jews well. Davening for the Zionists, on the other hand, is more of a cart blanche.

    As I mentioned above, we daven that Hashem keep all our brethren safe.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005658
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Just Emes:

    Your post did not live up to your namesake, as I indicated.

    Since you brought a chazal, I’ll also bring one: Chazal mention that biYimos haMashiach, the Romans will claim “look at the bathhouses we built (that the Jews used)”. Yet Hashem will not accept that argument.

    Of course, we have the Satmar Rav’s famous mashal of the arsonist who begins burning down a complex and then goes to get a fire truck and wants to be seen as a hero for doing so. The answer to him, like the Zionists, is, of course, that he shouldn’t have started the fire in the first place.

    DaasYochid:

    I wrote that “..from the enemies who wish to destroy us” is incorrectly phrased as it is more accurately “…from the enemies who wish to destroy Israel/them”.

    As well, I don’t see why a non-Israeli should have hakaras HaTov to an IDF soldier, certainly not more so than an Israeli should have hakaras HaTov to, say, a French soldier who protects the lives of Jews in, say, France.

    Israel, however, has a problem that, say, France does not have; Israel’s very existence is against the Torah and any support of Israel is de facto, if not de jure, going against the Torah. No such issue exists with France.

    See my points to JE in this post, please.

    The bottom line is the A”Z of Zionism causes people to improperly adore the IDF, which happens to also be the engine of shmad for the State of Israel and Zionism, and has them confuse Israel’s enemies as “our” enemies. “We” are not Zionists.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005651
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Let’s look at the facts (emes means truth, as in the objective truth, not subjective emotions).

    There are some IDF soldiers who do protect some Jews.

    There are also soldiers in countries around the world that also protect Jews.

    It would make sense that the numbers would be higher in Israel, but this is irrelevant.

    (In response to some IDF actions, some goyim have “retaliated” against innocent Jews because they believe the Zionists’ lies that Zionism=Judaism when, of course, the opposite is true. Yes, these goyim are wrong to do so, regardless. Obviously. But that doesn’t change the alleged “cause” of their actions, the IDF.)

    Either way, the facts are that not all IDF soldiers protect Jews (some may have other missions), and certainly not all IDF soldiers protect all Jews.

    You have also significantly diverged from observable truth by stating “…to protect and save the Jewish people from the enemies who wish to destroy us.”

    What you mean is “…to protect and save the people living in Israel from the enemies who wish to destroy them/Israel.”

    This is a very important distinction because your way propagandizes the Zionist bald-faced lies about Zionists claiming to be the universal protector of Jews.

    Particularly for a screen name such as yours, more precision is required, in my humble opinion.

    The bottom line is to daven for the safety of our brethren wherever they may be and let Hashem work out how to run His world.

    in reply to: Mussar from current events #1001329
    HaKatan
    Participant

    davidsamual14:

    You surely realize that the Zionists will never be at peace with Torah Jews who are living reminders of the numerous abject failures of Zionism and, therefore, this cannot be some utopian situation wherein everyone is at peace together as they all serve the idol of Zionism.

    Interestingly, Chava, according to Chazal, tried a somewhat similar tactic with Adam HaRishon back in Gan Eden, after she was fooled by the nachash; she even convinced Adam to listen to her (as Adam rightly claimed to Hashem). That worked out real well; didn’t it?

    The same not being able to be at peace with authentic Torah observance is true, to a lesser extent, of the MO/”Religious Zionists” who also take offense to other Jews not adopting their new faith. (Observe what MO schools in the US tell their students about those who “dare” to not observe the Israeli Independence day as a Jewish religious holiday, et al.)

    As well, as things stand now, the disasters of Zionism, both spiritual and material, have not stopped and have, in some ways, gotten worse. As we know, the entire purpose of Zionism is shmad, meaning, therefore, they cannot tolerate Judaism. Yet you think this “achdus” at the essential cost of abandonment of the Torah is “the most important thing”?

    You seem to you feel it’s better to have Jews lost, CH”V, at the altar of the idol of Zionism (both physically and/or spiritually), as so many unknowingly continue to worship that idol (and physically serve and, as a “bonus”, get shmadded, in the IDF, etc.), rather than for Jews to learn the truth about the idolatry and kefirah of Zionism, daven for the true geulah, and all be redeemed by Hashem BB”A?

    I humbly disagree.

    I feel it makes much more sense to try to save people from corrupting their Judaism with, CH”V, Zionism.

    Kol haMikayem nefesh achas miYisrael kiEilu kiyam olam malei.

    in reply to: Mussar from current events #1001325
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Health:

    Welcome back, all should always be well with you and everyone, and thank you.

    Avram:

    Thank you.

    Sam2:

    I am surprised you even had that hava amina.

    I explicitly stated in that very same paragraph about Hashem’s “will” that “…bechira chafshis and other related matters, which of course do not in any way contradict Hashem’s omnipotence”.

    I also wrote from the Brisker Rav how Tefillah can bring about disastrous results, with his case in point being the State of Israel.

    So, the clear implication of that is that the State was (again) of course from Hashem, although it was a result of (terribly mistaken) tefillos to Hashem, not the kefirah of “reishit tzemichat geulateinu” (since you brought up kefirah) or any of that other nonsense.

    Although you obviously don’t agree, my salient point to d.s., as “drey kup” wrote and as you surely realized (but which you probably don’t like), was and is “…it’s simply a non-starter that the mere existence of Zionism should somehow grant it any Torah legitimacy.”

    in reply to: Mussar from current events #1001319
    HaKatan
    Participant

    I highly doubt we are reading the same commentaries, and I’m sure your interpretation vis-a-vis Israel is nothing that any legitimate Rabbi would have ever said, but I presume you are attempting to base your untenable position on our holy Torah, so I certainly respect your mistake.

    As we both agree, the power of Tefillah is awesome.

    But you still seem to not understand that the outcome of tefillah can be calamitous, R”L L”A as it was when Jews mistakenly prayed for the State to come into being instead of praying for Mashiach.

    You write your father fought for “freedom of Israel”? So now the Zionists equate 1948 with yetzias mitzrayim, too? What freedom? There was no captivity. Nobody forced anyone to stay anywhere. And even for those who were there, the chareidim had no problem with British rule, were it not for the Zionists needlessly provoking the savages there, and even then they still wanted the Zionists to just go away and not make things any worse than the Zionists already had.

    You also write about the “numerous yeshivas and prayer groups spreading throughout the country”. Even assuming this is true and also assuming that it is also true only because of Zionism – in fact, Zionism is irrelevant to this – was that worth the tens of thousands of lives and families destroyed for this idol?

    The idolatry espoused by leading MO and “Religious Zionist” Rabbis answers, essentially, yes. This is on record. The Torah, of course, holds the opposite of their deeply mistaken view. This, too, is on record; see Rav Schwab regarding “Talmid chacham sheEin bo deah”.

    I’m sure your father meant well, but the facts are that Israel was and is a disaster of unparalleled historic proportions to our people, never mind the rest of the world.

    As to the world changing and all that, it’s not that it’s “hard to accept this change”. Israel’s existence is, of course, a (current) fact. But it’s simply a non-starter that the mere existence of Zionism should somehow grant it any Torah legitimacy.

    You choose to go with an emotional sevara that’s against the Torah, while I choose to adopt the view of the sages of the Torah that they expressed well before your father fought for that idolatrous State and that they continue to express until this day. Nowhere have you justified any of the idolatry and kefirah of Zionism. But that’s understandable, because nobody can justify the unjustifiable.

    Of course, then, we agree to disagree.

    in reply to: Mussar from current events #1001317
    HaKatan
    Participant

    davidsamual14:

    By your “logic”, Hashem also wanted the Holocaust and every other tragedy to happen. Surely with your knowledge of esoteric concepts of Judaism you are more than familiar with bechira chafshis and other related matters, which of course do not in any way contradict Hashem’s omnipotence.

    I pointed out the Brisker Rav’s daas Torah that the State of Israel came into being because observant people in Meah Shearim (were fooled by the Zionists and) prayed for the State to come into being (as well as some other reasons).

    Since you mentioned Moshe Rabbeinu, you also likely know that had Moshe persisted in praying to be allowed in to E”Y, Hashem would have let him in to E”Y, which is why He told Moshe to stop praying because this was not Hashem’s will.

    Both of these demonstrate the awesome power of Tefillah, not as you misinterpret it as Hashem not being in control, CH”V.

    The Yetzer HaRa for this idolatry of Zionism is indeed powerful and tries to abuse the Torah in its defense, but, BE”H, everyone can overcome this if they simply open their eyes to the Daas Torah of our sages (and reality and history) instead of, liHavdil, Zionist propaganda.

    in reply to: Mussar from current events #1001314
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Syag Lchochma:

    In threads that incorrectly approach Zionism, I feel it appropriate to address the matter there. I’m not sure why you write that “hate” and “dinner table” have anything to do with this.

    davidsamual14:

    Before you get into esoteric matters, it is important to understand the practical Torah. The proof is in the Torah, as expounded by our sages in the gemara through today’s times.

    As to your other contentions about peace and harmony, it doesn’t seem that this is the reality. But I can understand why you wrote that you “felt the presence of G-d everywhere” in E”Y, as that is Hashem’s land.

    Regardless, Zionism was and is kefirah and A”Z in addition to violating the oaths of galus. That (for starters) would, in my humble opinion, serve to qualify Zionism as “a tremendous affront to Him”, as I wrote.

    in reply to: Mussar from current events #1001312
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Avram:

    As to your other questions:

    To answer your second question, let’s determine the goal of the prayers.

    If your goal is to worship the idolatry of Zionism then praying for the State makes sense, as, unfortunately, our MO brethren have gone so far as to insert into their siddur.

    If, however, your goal is to beseech G-d to protect the Jews who live in E”Y simply because they are our Jewish brethren (especially if you also understand that the State of Israel is a tremendous affront to Him), then the most logical conclusion is to simply pray for the safety of our brethren in E”Y and leave the “how-to” to G-d.

    Then, if Hashem chooses to do so through the IDF, then that’s His choice. If, instead, He does so by bringing Mashiach now and ending this nonsense and kefira immediately and bloodlessly, that would, of course, be much better.

    This was the same mistake made at the time of Israel’s founding. The Brisker Rav said that some observant Jews prayed for a State as their salvation in 1948 instead of for Hashem’s true salvation, and Hashem answered their prayers in kind, with the utter disaster we have seen, Hashem yiracheim.

    So it would be very wise to not play G-d and simply pray for the well-being of our brethren and leave to G-d the running of His world.

    Regarding politics, there is no question that Israel is held to a different standard than the standard to which the goyim hold (other) goy nations. Notice that all goyim refer to Israel as the “Jewish State” when Israel is, of course, a Zionist state and therefore not a Jewish State despite some Jewish trappings (somewhat like a chazir trying to vainly show it is kosher).

    It seems pretty clear that Zionism is the reason for this treatment by the nations. Bilam stated (and Hashem put his words into the Torah) “Hein Am Livadad Yishkon uVaGoyim lo yischashav”. The Zionists are, of course, kofrim in this, too, while Hashem allows the nations of the world to make the Zionists live those words in constant and living refutation of their kefirah.

    Regarding working for the State of Israel, while seemingly very ill-advised for any number of reasons, this is clearly an halachic issue that requires the advisement of an LOR.

    in reply to: Mussar from current events #1001310
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Avram:

    GAW answered your first question.

    To elaborate, and to provide the basis for the answer to your remaining questions, Zionism is shmad. The entire enterprise of a State of Israel and all that goes with it, today as then, is shmad.

    The kochi viOtzem Yadi, the Zionists’ changing bitachon from faith in G-d to (faith in) security services, changing keren kayemes from its mishnaic meaning to Zionist money-pot, the IDF melting-pot of kefirah and znus, etc. is all one massive shmad.

    As Rav Chaim Brisk, back then, stated, the Zionists’ need for a State is a means to the end of shmad, not the other way around.

    His son, who lived in Israel through Israel’s founding, and, yibadel liChayim tovim vaAruchim, his grandson, who also lives in Israel, shlit”A has also confirmed this to be true, as can be seen in his writings today.

    In other words, nothing has changed, even if your typical Israeli simply goes about his business not understanding what is his government and country.

    in reply to: Mussar from current events #1001309
    HaKatan
    Participant

    davidsamual14:

    By your logic, Moshe Rabbeinu, who adjudicated civil matters and said “Mi laHashem eilai” and “hirgu ish achiv”, would also be an abomination to Hashem.

    The obvious answer is that, as I posted before, shalom and achdus are very important. Hashem even allows His name to be erased for Shalom, in the case of a Sotah. But Moshe Rabbeinu rightly proclaimed the above, despite the very obvious “discord between brethren” this could have caused.

    in reply to: Mussar from current events #1001304
    HaKatan
    Participant

    davidsamual14.

    Actually, yes, according to the Torah, as transmitted to our Rabbis until today.

    Speaking of navi, I suppose your “feeling” would similarly have advised Eliyahu HaNavi to not exhort Jews at Har HaCarmel but to instead leave them to serve the baal. That, too, was, in your view, “Satan’s way of causing mahlokes”?

    Obviously, this is not so then and it is similarly not so now.

    “We” did not need secular Jews to create the State of Israel, and “we” similarly did not need the many disasters of Zionism both before, during and after 1948. This is historical fact, not mere conjecture; study the opinions and actions of the greatest Torah sages of those times.

    Regarding your “HaGra”, one is forbidden to transgress the Torah regardless of what any sefer or even what a live navi says. Surely, even the “religious Zionists”, who so bizarrely elevate their Zionism to be a major focal part of their Judaism (not like political party nonsense), would admit that if Hashem wished to bring Mashiach without Zionism that He can certainly do so. There is, therefore, no need to violate the Torah.

    Again, Zionism always was and is wrong and against the Torah. Our greatest Torah sages for over a century (and even more) have said so and continue to say so, your “feelings” and observations not withstanding.

    in reply to: Mussar from current events #1001301
    HaKatan
    Participant

    davidsamual14,

    Achdus is very nice and machlokes is not.

    But idolatry and shmad are far worse. Zionism is idolatry. Zionism is shmad. As a “bonus”, Zionism is also hisgarus baUmos, et al.

    Chareidim always understood the evils of Zionism and its terrible effects on Jews. At the time you speak of, at Israel’s founding in 1948, Chareidim there saw the Zionist atrocities against our people, known as Yaldei Tehran, among others. Chareidi opposition to Zionism goes back to the very inception of Zionism over a century ago, not a recent invention as you imply.

    We should focus on one goal: understand the truth so that we can serve Hashem as best as we can.

    in reply to: Mussar from current events #1001299
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Avram in MD:

    I am not interested in telling people to do teshuva, as you keep trying to get me to do, because I am not interested in judging anyone.

    However, simply, I see no reason why any thinking Jew should contradict his faith by being, in addition (and in contradiction), a Zionist.

    Yes, I believe this can and will change. By the Baal, it took Eliyahu HaNavi at Har HaCarmel. Perhaps this will take Mashiach. I don’t know. But one can at least try to reason with people.

    in reply to: Mussar from current events #1001293
    HaKatan
    Participant

    GAW:

    I don’t recall seeing your idea you mentioned in your PS. What was that?

    Avram:

    The point is not what, al pi halacha, the Zionists should do now but that everyone should be crystal-clear that they should never have started and about the damage the Zionists have done and continue to do to Klal Yisrael.

    We know, today, what our gedolim have said and continue to hold regarding Zionism and what the Zionists have done and continue to do, some of which the Zionists could certainly stop without any potential problem. Other than that, we do not know what the future holds.

    So, as to what the Zionists should do after the above, this is for the gedolim of the generation to deal with.

    But people still believe in the heresy of Zionism and make it (part of) their faith.

    So, again, the point is recognizing right (Torah) and wrong (any flavor of Zionism).

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