HaKatan

shmendrick, I presume your post was serious, offensive as it is.

The answer to your question is that, for starters, if you will be a better oveid Hashem elsewhere then you are obligated to NOT live in Lakewood and to live in whatever place that is, much as it would be nice to breathe in the air of all that learning in Lakewood. Yours is a question based on what’s known in learning as an emotional sevara.

Health, thank you.

Chanukah Sameach to all.

The crucial distinction between Eretz Yisrael and, lihavdil elef alfei havdalos, Zionism, should answer most of the “questions”.

But despite the technology, innovations and Yeshivos, the ideology of Zionism and its communist propaganda is so bankrupt that it’s almost beyond comprehension how rational people still believe in it!

Just take a look at the news coming out of Israel. It seems every day there is another story that indicates just how mistaken this Zionist egel was and is.

Today, one can read on YWN that the IDF soldiers cannot defend themselves against these savages but have to run away from them because cameras are rolling and world opinion won’t like the response.

This is the Zionist answer to the “galut Jew”: to outdo the galus Jew, not to make it better as they dream. The Zionists are prisoners in “their own land”, where their army has to cut and run, the entire country is practically a walled entity with multi-million dollar missile shields and bomb shelters that still don’t provide total protection — and which should not be necessary to begin with — and they have never known a day of peace and fought multiple bloody wars in its rather bloody few decades of existence, not to mention all the terror attacks, ch”V, Hashem Yishmor.

What normal country builds bomb shelters as a standard feature in its apartment buildings? What country doesn’t defend its own borders and can’t even define them?

How many thousands of Jews have died for this Egel, some of them quite brutally? How many families destroyed? Was it worth it? Do you believe there is any acceptable amount of blood?

The Torah says VaChai BaHem, not to sacrifice lives, CH”V, for this egel or for almost anything else. What about the tens of thousands of traumatized Jews? What about the doros and olamos of Jews intentionally shmaded by those reshaim, some of whom are, B”H, returning to Yahadus but many of whom who have not?

Yet, you intelligent and thinking people still believe in this idolatry and fraud even with 60+ years of history behind you! (And the gedolim all knew this even before 1948, contrary to Zionist propaganda; all agreed the State was and is a disaster, even after 1948. The Satmar Rav was different only in method of action, not in position.)

As I’ve posted before, if anyone can’t understand how people believed in the Baal and had the chutzpah to attend the show-down between Eliyahu HaNavi and, lihavdil, the Neviei HaBaal, as if there was some thought that the baal might win, then the mass indoctrination and Zionist brainwashing should make it quite clear how this could be. Stop and think how absurd this whole thing was. Eliyahu HaNavi, tells you Hashem is G-d and you actually show up to a mountain to wait and see if he’s right? It’s one thing to worship idols, as Chazal tell us the yetzer hara to do so was enormous. But to actually attend that showdown as if it wasn’t perfectly clear what the truth was and is?

Back to today, look at how many people believe in this nonsense of nationalism, which is a 19th century relic, and, worse, they have grafted that on to our holy Torah to surpass almost all else in importance. How is this possible?

The only rational answer seems to be, IMHO, as multiple gedolim have written, this is a magnificently orchestrated maase satan, and he has, unfortunately, fooled a lot of people. What other rational explanation is there for why so many wise and otherwise great people can be so sadly mistaken when it comes to this issue.

rebdoniel, it is not merely “good PR and for our gain”.

What you are stating is that our holy sages of yester-year were primitive and unenlightened, and Rav Dov Linzer knows better. This would be funny if it weren’t so sad and exactly opposite of what mesorah tells us.

Your latter remarks, however, that one should act “in consonance with our own social and political metziut” does not contradict this insofar as the specifications of Darkei Shalom apply. This, indeed, may “make us duty-bound to treat all people fairness, kindness and justice”, but only because of the applicability of darkei shalom, whatever exactly that means, not because of some ultra-MO “modernity” trumping the Torah, CH”V.

Your terribly misguided mistake remains, therefore, if you think that Linzer is more moral/enlightened than, lihavdil, Rava and Abaye.

Did you miss the part about the savages raining down rockets non-stop on innocent Israelis?

2 states also passed laws allowing “gay marriage”.

The only zechus the goyim have is that they don’t write a kesuba bein ish liIsh. That “not writing…” is rapidly disappearing, and it is scary because oy laRasha viOy liShcheino, and now Hashem, for whatever is His reason(s), sent this second storm on top of Super-storm Sandy…

And Mr. Bloomberg somehow thinks this is a “civil rights” issue. Maybe people’s animals should also have full marital rights. Siblings, too, should be able to marry, by that logic. B”H they are free to do what they want, but that doesn’t make it marriage.

This whole “Gay marriage” nonsense is such a breathtaking fraud, yet so many successful and otherwise intelligent people fall for it.

May Hashem protect all His children and redeem us BB”A.

The Rambam (IIRC) says something like it’s very foolish and playing with fire (i.e. strongly recommended against this), though it seems like it is technically muttar, as Sam2 mentioned (assuming hirhurim, etc. are not an issue).

It’s a befeirush gemara that “Ain Puranus ba LaOlam ela…”.

That doesn’t mean we know why Hashem brought this or any other storm. But Chazal have already informed us of the general principle.

It’s also interesting that you mention your “theory” after this particular storm, which was unprecedented and was a “perfect storm”, not a “typical” storm, and therefore was that much more “miraculous”.

coffee addict, the Torah itself commands us to not pay heed to miracles, but it’s anyways not a proof to anything here. Not to mention we anyways don’t know Hashem’s ways and reasons: “Ki lo Machshivosai Machshivoseichem viLo Darkeichem Dirachai…”, as we see in Navi.

This has all been hashed and rehashed before.

By your logic, Hitler’s rise to power and his terrible atrocities was also what Hashem “wanted”, because if you study the history of how he got to where he did, there was no realistic way that it should have ever happened. It was nissim that the Holocaust DID happen, on the scale of Purim (lihavdil, ayein the mifarshim).

I apologize if this offended anyone, but this truth is very illustrative of how fallacious this Zionist fantasy is; nissim are not endorsement, as Hashem Himself says so in the Torah.

Also, one who holds your logic might explain why they don’t convert to Christianity or Islam. How did those faiths come to claim well over a billion of combined adherents, if it wasn’t the ratzon Hashem? Obviously, Hashem does things that aren’t necessarily what we should be aiming for, which He has His Own reasons for.

Regardless, in the nidon didan, the alternative to those nissim was and still is, Hashem Yishmor, “lo nishtaaru miSoneihem shel Yisrael afilu sarid uPalit” in Eretz Yisrael. So the reason for those nissim is pretty clear: simple pikuach nefesh. Not to mention that Hashem can have his own reasons that have nothing to do with endorsing Zionism, such as allowing bechira, etc.

It is sadly foolish and a chutzpah to take these chasdei Hashem, past and present, as an endorsement of this maaseh satan which has been, sadly, so successful in fooling our people.

mommamia22, I’m sorry you feel that pulling the wool over your eyes is better than knowing the truth, but I prefer the latter.

And, yes, I still maintain that everyone, not just rabbanim, should know the truth about any “derech” that they (or their kids) might be exposed to and MO is certainly in that category unless you live and work in certain monolithic neighborhoods.

Besides, what do you have to hide? IF you feel MO is valid, then defend it rather than covering it up.

TLKY:

Neither Yankees nor Southerners have it wrong.

The German “ow” versus the ashkenaz “oh”, for example, can be described as a different dialect and neither is any more correct than the other as they are essentially the same.

But when it gets to an “oy” instead of “oh”, and “yuntiff” instead of “yom tov”, and vowels being completely switched around (and perhaps even in the case of a kamatz being practically erased as a distinct vowel from patach), it is long past being considered a different dialect.

YehudaYona:

There’s a difference between holding on to your mesorah and holding on to a shibush. My “yumtev” illustration from earlier should indicate how absurd this is.

If you listen to Jewish music recordings of ashkenaz kids in England, you will hear their pronunciation of a sh’va as a kamatz. This seems to be a local/dialectical issue, and not that they have a different mesorah than other ashkenazim.

Teimanim, despite the length of their mesorah, have still lived that mesorah in an Arab country. So it’s not unlikely that their mesorah has been, over the years, adapted to the local dialect.

I would guess that this is also how Sefardim (Persians being notable exceptions) came to pronounce both patach and kamatz as a patach. Listen to the languages and dialects of their host countries.

This is why I agree with “Curiosity” that people should not switch to Teimani, since there’s no guarantee that Moshe Rabbeinu spoke that way at Har Sinai, and I would think, in my humble opinion, that he did not speak quite that way, though they may be closest in many, if not all, ways to the original.

Other than some Chassidim and Teimanim, everyone across the spectrum of galus (i.e. German, “Ashkenaz” and Sefard) all pronounce every vowel similarly, if not the same, except for some Ashkenazim who, for some reason, pronounce the cholam as a choylam and many sefardim who pronounce both kamatz and patach as patach.

Since both the “choylam” and Chassidic havara of swapping the vowels and mileil/milra are recent inventions (like “yumtev” or “yuntiff”), why are these not “rolled back” to *their* original and why are succeeding generations being taught questionable, if not mistaken, havaros?

ZahavasDad, when you wrote “Now MO are Rashim”, I presume you meant “rishaim” and that you erroneously based your slander on my post. I certainly did not write the slander you wrote, and my post was quite clear to that effect.

(Also, two wrongs do not make a right, as you surely learned in Kindergarten, so I don’t understand what the relevance is of certain people’s use of archaos.)

But on the off-chance you are asking sincerely and since you seemed to have missed my explicit and clear statement of when one would be considered a rasha, I will elaborate.

One (i.e. a Jewish male, regardless of sect/affiliation) who, given an alternative, intentionally goes to a(n) street/path/area where he knows he will encounter pritzus is called a rasha. Again, this applies to any Jew, MO or otherwise. Ergo, a male who attends a Broadway show, EVEN IF HE IS SURE HE WILL NOT LOOK, is a rasha just for having gone, before he is over any further issurim.

Since in MO periodicals, it is perfectly normal to read reviews about bars and MO posts in the past here have referenced how some MO go to Broadway shows, that was the relevance of this halacha to this thread. It was, once more, not a reflection on the entire MO population.

mommamia22, I disagree. As I’ve posted before, and to borrow from the Syms slogan, an educated consumer is our best consumer. To be the best Eved Hashem one can be, one should know the best way to serve Hashem and the pitfalls of other isms and movements like Zionism and MO (among others). The point is not to randomly bash them, CH”V, but to educate us.

As a concept, MO is, at best, a (mistaken) horaas shaah (from decades ago). (The Zionism part is hopelessly misguided, but that’s not the point here.) That’s as far as the ideology.

In practice, however, there are different types of MO.

There are many frum MO who are talmidei chachamim and yireiei shamayim who do not look down upon or ignore CH”V any mitzvos. Due to their environment, education and/or other reasons, some of their standards may still be somewhat lower than they should be, but their hashkafa of 100% shemiras mitzvos, is nonetheless still intact.

There are others, however, who “pick and choose”.

This includes things like men going to broadway shows (they earn the halachic status of rasha, liChol haDeios, unless it’s an all-male show) and (married) women not covering their hair at all, going mixed swimming, et al. Not to mention other hataras issurim. If, one generation later, this group is at 50% (of whom are still either MO or else moved on to traditional orthodox), that’s not exactly shocking, as the above stories from those on campus and in schools indicate. Hashem yishmor.

Regarding MikeHall, your words are by far the worst I’ve seen on this thread. “We deserve everything we got?” because your holy sensitivities are offended? A place like YWN CR is a good place for people to understand what different ideologies represent, and how that fits in with normative Judaism’s outlook.

(This thread is definitely NOT why we are in galus. Though, in so many ways, Zionism certainly hasn’t helped and isn’t helping any, if you really are concerned about galus.)

OTD, the problem is the mixed atmosphere and unnecessary “drawing close to each other” that this type of gathering brings. It’s really not a matter of anyone’s intellectual level.

Matan1, please cite which chumra or chumros is/are unnecessary, and who imposes it/them.

On the other hand, some feel that it’s better to dress so that the skirt only covers the knees when you are both bending over and tugging on it at the same time. And this is not a worse “hyper-sexualization”?

Besides, by your logic, we might as well adopt the standards of the nations and just throw the whole inyan out the window. Why shouldn’t a woman wear shorts and a sleeveless tank top (if even that) rather than out holy and dignified way of dress? Let’s not “hyper-sexualize” the arms and legs, right?

It so happens that your logic is that of the nations, while the Torah’s logic says exactly the opposite. Chazal says about this particular Yetzer HaRa that masbio ra’ev whereas mar’ivo save’a. So if a tempting circumstance of any sort were to arise, CH”V, you’re better off if you are as clean as possible, not CH”V the other way.

I’m not saying to go crazy with unnecessary chumros. But Chaza”l knew what they were talking about. Let’s not pretend to be smarter than Chazal.

I’m glad to have seen this thread, only because I don’t have to disagree with many others, including ROB, on this one.

Lifi Aniyas Da’ati, and those are the key words, I can’t understand how one is passul as an Eid just because he uses an iPhone.

I tend to agree with the gist of what ROB said, which is that if a talmid chacham who sinned by day still merits “al tiharher acharav baLayla”, then even if a person did do some aveira with that phone (though there is no reason to assume he did so just because the device is capable of all sorts of things) then maybe he already did teshuva and is therefore just as kasher to be an eid as anyone else.

Perhaps someone who knows can enlighten everyone.

Josh, I certainly respect that you “feel [you are] one of them [Zionists].” But your contention that “an attack on Israel is an an attack on all Jews.” is simply not true in the context of Jewish discussion of the unimaginably massive tragedy that was and is Zionism.

The Zionist atrocities mentioned just in this thread, are more than enough to keep one busy all Tisha biAv. So this should not be covered up and have everyone believe your (i.e. Zionist) lies, and, worse, corrupt CH”V our holy religion with this idolatry.

Josh, I Googled as you indicated.

I’ll keep checking, but the first link Google brought up showed this, which is interesting in light of the recent event of the Israeli Chief Rabbis interfering in Germany regarding Bris Milah:

“”Most people are not aware that in March, 1933, long before Hitler became the undisputed leader of Germany and began restricting the rights of German Jews, the American Jewish Congress announced a massive protest at Madison Square Garden and called for an American boycott of German goods.

London Daily Express

24 March 1933

The Daily Express (London) published an article on March 24, 1933 announcing that the Jews had already launched their boycott against Germany and described a forthcoming “holy war”. The Express urged Jews everywhere to boycott German goods and demonstrate against German economic interests.

The Express said that Germany was “now confronted with an international boycott of its trade, its finances, and its industry….In London, New York, Paris and Warsaw, Jewish businessmen are united to go on an economic crusade.”

The article went on, “worldwide preparations are being made to organize protest demonstrations.”

On March 27, 1933 the planned protest at Madison Square Garden was attended by 40,000 protestors (New York Daily News headlines: “40,000 Roar Protest Here Against Hitler”).

Similar rallies and protest marches were also held in other cities. The intensity of the Jewish campaign against Germany was such that the Hitler government vowed that if the campaign did not stop there would be a one-day boycott in Germany of Jewish-owned stores.

Hitler’s March 28, 1933 speech ordering a boycott against Jewish stores and goods was in direct response to the declaration of war on Germany by the worldwide Jewish leadership.

That same spring of 1933 there began a period of private cooperation between the German government and the Zionist movement in Germany and worldwide to increase the flow of German-Jewish immigrants and capital to Palestine.

Growing anti-Semitism in Germany and by the German government in response to the boycott played into the hands of the Zionist leaders. Prior to the escalation of anti-Semitism as a result of the boycott the majority of German Jews had little sympathy for the Zionist cause of promoting the immigration of world Jewry to Palestine. Making the situation in Germany as uncomfortable for the Jews as possible, in cooperation with German National Socialism, was part of the Zionist plan to achieve their goal of populating Palestine with a Jewish majority.

“For all intents and purposes, the National Socialist government was the best thing to happen to Zionism in its history, for it “proved” to many Jews that Europeans were irredeemably anti-Jewish and that Palestine was the only answer: Zionism came to represent the overwhelming mjaority of Jews solely by trickery and cooperation with Adolf Hitler.” [1]

____________________

Sources:

[1] Barnes Review, “The Jewish Declaration of War on Nazi Germany, The Economic Boycott of 1933”

ROB, your position that no one except the Nazis are guilty is to deny a whole host of Torah precepts, including lo saamod al dam rei’echa, arvus and others, not to mention, for example, the inhumanity of turning away a boat to be sent back to Hell, even without the above precepts.

There’s also no point in reminding you that even Rav Teichtal never advocated for Zionism and that his son explicitly states in the introduction to Eim HaBanim Simeichah, that to do so is a distortion of his father’s intent. So, no, you are not in the company you think you are, including Rav Teichtal.

But Zionists, (otherwise) religious or not, are well-practiced at distorting things to fit their idolatrous agenda that they R”L fool themselves into believing is in consonance with the Torah.

Put more succinctly, ROB, you wish to bury your head in the sand and see no (Zionist) evil.

Enjoy the sand and the Zionist Kool-aid.

Health’s post from before re: Matisyohu sums it up pretty well.

And, as Popa wrote, not only are frum Americans scared of becoming citizens and regretting if they, unfortunately, are citizens by birth, even some secular leave Israel when they realize what a tragic deception they live in. What non-brainwashed person would become a citizen of a country where he has to send his 18-year old kids to be drafted into an army with all the attendant risks, spiritual and physical? It’s called idolatry, Kool-Aid and deception and corruption of Torah, as Popa also alluded to, and that is the cause.

Incidentally, when some of the secular “yordim” do get to America, a good number of them actually become frum once the Zionist indoctrination and culture wears off, B”H, and they see what it’s like to live in a country that has a deep respect (US) rather deep hatred for (Israel), religion.

ROB, whatever your position, and I think it is pretty clear that it is, in Health’s terms, drunk on Zionist Kool-Aid, you really should not bring in the Holocaust as a misayea to your tragically mistaken position. Because, for starters, a mainstream neutral Jewish paper (with a regular whole section on Israel News with a mildly pro-Israel slant, certainly not anti-Israel) recently had a lengthy multi-part series on a small number of the crimes committed by the Zionists DURING and after the Holocaust.

There’s no point telling you to Google what the likes of Yitzhak Greenbaum and others said and did. Like Nazis YM”Sh, the Zionists decided who was worthy of living and who should be left to perish in Europe because they were “old and infirm” rather than young and able to build the state. The Nazis made their selections based on similar criteria when evaluating the Jews in their evil clutches. Also not unlike Nazis (the father-land, etc.), the Zionists did so because the State is above all. And it still is.

Pirkei Avos even says this is expected behavior for government, so this is not a chiddush. What is a chiddush is how people are so blind to the evils of Zionism that they even glorify it.

I’m amazed that more Jews aren’t angry at these reshaim for what they did and continue to do. Yaldei Teiman and Yaldei Teheran should be enough to make any feeling Jew’s blood boil. Not to mention the rest: past, present and future. Our ancestors gave their lives and endured horrible fates to avoid shmad. Yet Zionists, who were and are responsible for so much intentional shmad of their OWN JEWISH BRETHREN, are PRAISED and have their idolatrous ideology grafted onto our holy, pure and perfect Torah?

And this kol isha nonsense: Popa is 100% correct. It’s insulting to anyone’s intelligence to claim that this is even necessary much less correct in halacha or otherwise to force these Jews to listen to women sing, whether it’s one or one hundred women together. I wouldn’t be quite as insulting as Popa, but it’s clearly not halachicly permissible. At best, it’s naval birshus HaTorah, but any yeshiva high school bachur can tell you exactly why this kol isha travesty is wrong, meaning assur liHalacha, no matter what RZ authorities say otherwise. They can’t argue with metzius. Especially because the whole thing kol isha choir, etc. is not necessary.

Back to ROB:

Let’s be very clear: Zionism WAS around during the Holocaust and had already hijacked the position of “Jewish Leadership” much to the detriment of our European ancestors/brothers and sisters versus had Agudah been recognized instead or at least in addition to the Zionists. And even if there had been an Israeli army, this incredible and unfathomable gezeirah would not have been ameliorated by the IDF or anything else materialistic. Israel’s continued existence is miraculous. Which means that al pi derech haTeva it should have disappeared long ago. So Zionism is nothing to count on given 1930s and 1940s Europe.

In other words, just because Hashem has sustained the Jews in Eretz Yisrael and their government, this does NOT mean he would have given a theoretical Zionist IDF any koach during the Holocaust just as He put it into the minds of the nations that bombing the tracks was not doable even though they were so close.

But the kicker is that even if the Zionists did have the capability to do something (which they actually did), since the Zionists anyways decided that they didn’t want “the old and infirm”, that they were “like dust” and “would pass”, what makes you so sure they would have bombed the tracks? These same Zionists turned away boats from the shores of Eretz HaKodesh. The same series had a picture of that, too. These Zionists held that only through blood would the nations give them their state after the war. Read up on it.

Yet “religious Zionists” are so sure the IDF would have sent a 1930s-era plane out to Europe to bomb the tracks or do some Entebbe on a far grander scale with far fewer resources and with older technology? This is more Zionist lies and propaganda that had they been around during the Holocaust then nothing would have happened to the Jews. They WERE around and look what they did and didn’t do.

So, in sum, it’s lihepech of the lies Zionists tell you. Zionists were INDEED around and in power during the Holocaust. Look at British archives from Mandatory Palestine. And the Zionists not only allowed but actually preferred that a good portion of (bnei) soneihem shel Yisrael be murdered by the Nazis (read: take out the two words before Yisrael) for the sole criteria of what they thought would be good for their state that they wanted more than life itself. Even the Zionists don’t deny these statements, as far as I’ve seen.

That’s besides the other atrocities, like Yaldei Tehran, and much, much more. But, amazingly, people are actually pro-Zionist rather than, say, simply looking the other way in shame and shock and not having any opinion. This, in spite of all the evidence, halachic, logical and otherwise, that it has been and is a major disaster. And, no having to take a bullet-proof bus to Kever Rachel is not exactly something to write home about. Nor is taking a light-rail train in Yerushalayim and having an Arab savage knife a Jewess, and then his Jewish lawyer on top of that claim that he’s a good boy. Nor any of the Zionist-induced and/or created problems like, just for example, the whole ongoing Oslo disaster and Iranian menace. Nobody needed any of that, just as the gedolim warned and the Zionists insisted on ignoring.

It seems we’re clearly in the Yemei HaMashiach because so many people are so fooled by this avoda zara of Zionism to the point of elevating it to primacy OVER the Torah rather than at least “only” on par with, CH”V despite its many, many, faults and atrocities committed against our people.

May Hashem redeem us all with the true geulah, BB”A.

On Rosh HaShana, which is coming up, we don’t cry, even though it is a day of judgement, because we are happy and confident that BE”H we will all merit a wonderful, sweet new year.

I would think the nidon diDan would be similar. While it’s a serious occasion (and a personal Yom Kippur), and only a navi knows the future, one would hope that some sort of smile would still be in order, BE”H. Look at the many brachos marriage brings: a clean slate, completing himself with his zivug, etc.

“more”:

I wasn’t exactly clear on what point you were making. However:

By comparing smartphones to Chava, why bother with Muktzeh? After all, it’s only a siyag.

While Chava may have erred in that particular instance, Pirkei Avos does advise “VaAsu Siyag LaTorah”.

Chazal also say to be miod miod zahir in inyanim of arayos, whereas that lashon was not used by the Eitz HaDaas.

Again, I see their logic even if it’s not a universal standard.

I agree it would have been appropriate, from a secular perspective.

But it might have made the siyum seem like, lihavdil, just another secular event that’s held there. So I understand the decision to not sing it at the siyum.

But Hakaras HaTov and gratitude is definitely in order, and I hope this was otherwise expressed either at that venue or before/after.

Shraga, your post doesn’t seem to square with this:

“Regardless, it’s much more prudent to be the best eved Hashem in whatever place makes that possible, than to run off to anywhere else.

Incidentally, Chazal already told us that if one wants to be saved from chevlei Mashiach that they should be oseik in Torah and Gm”Ch. It does not say to move to E”Y.”

Again, we also *know* that one’s purpose on this Earth is, essentially, to the best Eved Hashem that this individual can be.

So, mima nafshach. If, after all considerations are taken, you can be a better eved Hashem in E”Y, then no Mashiach sevaras are necessary to indicate moving there, assuming security, parnassa, etc, are all worked out. On the other hand, if moving to E”Y would ch”V cause a yerida in your Avodas Hashem, then you are presumably forbidden to move there, no matter what pashut pshat may be in Neviim or elsewhere (in part because ain safeik motzi medei vadai, and this is at least a sifeik sifeika, if not an even greater-level safeik).

As well, why would Chazal, when addressing this topic, not have simply stated that living in E”Y would save one from Chevlei Mashiach rather than saying what they did? Evidently, according to known Chazal, it is not necessary to move to E”Y to escape chevlei Mashiach.

In addition, there was a major asifa held recently in NY, and the more recent Siyum HaShas. If they felt this was the case, would not one of the gedolim and rabbanim, including some from E”Y, had even hinted that everyone should return to E”Y ASAP? That’s not as important as the Internet? I don’t recall reading there was any mention of this.

Finally, to add another point, Ain LaDayan Ela Ma SheEinav Rowos and Ain HKB”H ba BiTruniya al Biriyosav. Of all places where Jews have resided since the founding of the State of Israel, the most dangerous place on Earth, in so many ways, has been that same State of Israel. So it’s irresponsible to ignore that clear reality.

That’s all theoretically speaking, of course. For real practical guidance, asking your trusted LOR is far more prudent.

May Hashem redeem us all, BB”A.

Mod 42, your comparison is not valid. I know of a sefardi rav whose Shabbos afternoon drashos were well-attended by ashkenazim in the town. That might be a valid Beis-Shammai/Beis-Hillel comparison. B”H, there is plenty of achdus in Klal Yisrael.

Again, whatever group it is that did not go (“Satmar” for the sake of this discussion), could not go because Rabbi Lau clearly represents Zionism (regardless of his reason for coming), and Zionism is Treif.

Even though his Torah is not halachicly ch”V treif as a result, is it so difficult to comprehend that, due to Rabbi Lau’s presence, that “Satmar”‘s attendance would have implied an acceptance of Zionism and that is a non-starter? (That’s not “politics”, BTW; it’s, lihavdil, Torah.)

Choppy made the point well, too.