HaKatan

DaasYochid and Avram (and others):

As I have written many times, I do not wish to condemn anyone.

I have never concluded from that Rav Elchonon or anywhere else that this therefore means that a person who unfortunately believes in Zionism as part of, lihavdil, his Judaism is any less neeman, or that his yayin is yayin nesech, etc.

But Rav Elchonon said what he said, as did the Brisker Rav and others. This is not a chidush.

If it is true that halachicly their yayin is yayin nesech, etc. then this is something for a posek to decide. Again, I have never said anything like that. Ask your LOR.

I simply attempted to repeat the Torah hashkafa on the matter, as expressed by gedolim, so that people do not base their Torah view on “misinformation”.

Just Emes:

I already mentioned that your UN sevaras are faulty. No, the UN vote to partition did not bind other nations and, in fact, the British abstained from that vote.

Regardless, the Arabs did not agree.

Further, the Zionists knew perfectly well that it would take a war and sacrifice of Jewish lives at the idolatrous altar of founding their State, which it, unfortunately did.

They knew it was AT BEST a 50/50 chance that their foolish war would NOT CH”V be a massive bloodbath of Jewish blood which, B”H, Hashem spared His people.

As well, the Zionists aggressively and offensively took more than even the UN voted to allow them and against the wishes of the chareidim living there as well.

rationalfrummie:

Actually, they are. The Rambam himself warned in Igeres Teiman that the Jews there should not violate the oaths.

ROB:

Whatever interpretation you have of my posts, which I incidentally do not agree with, you have no right to personally attack anyone, my humble self included.

As to the oaths, why do you continue to bring up Melech haMashiach with regards to the three oaths?

You are still trying to claim the oaths don’t apply because of Melech HaMashiach, who will reign post-galus?

Perhaps Sam2 or some of the other learned ones here can explain this.

Just Emes:

As to the rest of your post:

Your point 1 is irrelevant; the indisputable fact is that Israel was not founded biShalom.

Your point 2 is simply a fantasy and propaganda, as I explained numerous times. The Zionists themselves admit they took a foolish and tremendous gamble with Jewish lives, and (in 1948 alone) did sacrifice thousands of Jewish lives, for this idol.

Regarding your alleged Halacha, just because you make up a story about Rav Moshe, that doesn’t change the halacha berura. Pikuach nefesh is not nidche for Zionist idolatry. Founding the State of Israel undeniably and needlessly cost Jewish lives. (The oaths also apply.)

Case definitely closed, as you write.

As written above, Zionism was and is A”Z according to multiple gedolim, and founding the State was also clearly assur for additional reasons as described above.

Again, the Zionists have no answers.

Syag:

Oh, I thought it was your idea, not whichever mod.

No need to answer the question, then, I suppose.

ROB:

Are you seriously asking a question on the oaths from what Mashiach will do? I don’t want anyone to take anything “personally”, so I’ll stop there.

And even the Rav Meir Simcha that Zionists love to distort clearly claims the oaths are applicable to Zionism.

DaMoshe:

I’m sorry you disagree with Rav Elchonon. I am also sorry you somehow feel that this is my problem because I quoted his holy words. I did not call you personally an oveid A”Z, and I simply repeated Rav Elchonon’s holy words.

I also apologized three times if my words hurt anyone, regardless.

Just Emes:

If you really have studied the sugya then, for starters, your history must be different than what actually happened.

Again, you refuse to accept that your “B”D of Klal Yisrael” understanding is simply wrong, as I have written at least twice. If you read the HaPardes and the Brisker Rav’s words, this is quite clear.

You claim the State was declared in peace? This, too, is not emes. There were months of fighting before that formal declaration, including, famously, the bombing of a British government building in Yerushalayim. And the Zionists went on the offensive, not defensive, after the declaration to take Yerushalayim, which nobody gave them permission to do.

DaasYochid:

Thank you.

simcha613:

I’m sure Rav Elchonon was careful in the words he chose and that he meant exactly what he wrote.

First, I am not looking to judge anybody. I’m also not sure what zealotry has to do with this. I certainly agree that our MO and “Religious Zionist” brethren do not intend to CH”V worship idols.

I am merely pointing out what Rav Elchonon and others wrote. Rabbi JB Soloveichik, too, said that his father also held that Zionism is A”Z.

So this is not a radical idea, and that’s what great rabbanim paskened.

You have a kasha of what about most of the world that has been fooled by Zionism?

Ask your LOR how this is resolved. But Rav Elchonon’s psak that Zionism is A”Z does not change.

I suppose it wouldn’t help your incredulity to point out that a shockingly large part of Klal Yisrael during Eliyahu haNavi’s time worshipped the Baal. That’s with Eliyahu haNavi in their midst. Today, with the yeridas haDoros and no navi, why is it so shocking that so many people would fall prey to the lies of Zionism?

Regarding your “yes or no” questions, I already mentioned the Chazal about the Romans and the bathhouses they built and Hashem’s answer to their claim for reward.

Please answer yes or no if you feel that Hashem is, CH”V, kafui tov, for rejecting the Roman’s claim. (Of course, Hashem will have rewarded them in some other way because He doesn’t hold back reward from anyone.)

Once you’ve done that, please explain why Israel and the IDF should be any better.

Just Emes:

Based on your latest post, it is clear that you simply believe the standard Zionist propaganda about Zionism and Israel, and you are not aware of the various historical and halachic issues that pertain to Zionism and the State of Israel.

In my humble understanding, your views are definitely not “emes”.

For example, it is not emes that the State would be in any way acceptable if it were “religious”.

Before you claim to me that I “need to understand a few things”, you might want to learn “the sugya” first.

vashti_schwartz:

Because this religion is not based on “feelings” but on what the Torah wants.

Please explain the halachic gedarim of hakaras haTov and how you feel every IDF soldier fits those gedarim.

(cont.)

Just the pikuach nefesh problem alone, without the issues of the oaths and the kefira in emuna, is enough to have forbid founding the state.

But the oaths definitely were violated:

1 – There was no permission by all goyim to found the State, specifically the native Arabs and the British as well;

2 – The Zionists fought an offensive war to take more than they were originally allowed by the UN

3 – Any necessity for war makes the founding of the State violate the oath of being oleh biChoma, which even that alleged Meshech Chachma that the Zionists try to distort does not permit.

The Zionists have no answers.

DaMoshe:

What sinas chinam? I don’t understand.

Assaf, please don’t misunderstand this discussion, which is academic.

I wish you G-d’s help to do good for His children, and may you always return home safely and complete in mind and body.

Just Emes:

I recall the thread from which you copy and pasted that whole post from. I presume you felt it would be better for me to repeat myself rather than copy my own responses in that thread.

Regardless, what comes out from your post is as follows:

There is nobody of note who seriously believes that the Zionists had a halachic right to found their State.

(Even the Zionists know that they had, AT BEST, a 50/50 chance of succeeding, viHaRaaya, look at what it took. So the pikuach nefesh alone would have been reason to not declare the State, even without the issue of the oaths.)

Even if your mistaken cheshbon regarding the UN was correct, which it is factually not, that would only cover the oath of being oleh biChoma.

It doesn’t mention that the Zionists took land which they were forbidden to take, like “West Jerusalem”. The UN intended that to be an international city, and it likely would have become an international city had the Zionists not brazenly chosen to go on the offensive and attack and try to conquer the Jerusalem, at which point they brought the Jordanians into the war and further sakana that this entailed. But that part was definitely biChoma and against the will of the nations.

But it would anyways NOT cover the oath of being madchik haKeitz, of having sovereignty before Mashiach, even with full permission, or even coercion to do so, of every single gentile on the planet.

So that’s anyways a non-starter.

Regarding this “B”D of Klal Yisrael”, you are grossly misunderstanding this.

As the Brisker Rav stated, the reason the state came into being is that Jews in Meah Shearim davened for the State instead of Mashiach and, as the poster there quoted Rav Weintraub, because the “B”D of Klal Yisrael” paskened that the State should come into action, EVEN THOUGH THEY PASKENED INCORRECTLY!

The Brisker Rav and the others held, and this is clear in hindsight, that this “B”D” was wrong in their pask, rationale, and hashkafa.

Psak: It was and is assur to have founded that State. Nothing to talk about.

Rationale: if you look at that “HaPardes”, the “B”D”‘s “support” for a State was CONDITIONAL on the following two items (at least those two, as I recall), none of which were kept by the Zionists:

1 – The State would be established peacefully and with no bloodshed.

2 – The State would not interfere with religious matters.

So their rationale was disproven.

Hashkafa: Their assumption was that since politically it seemed like the State was going to happen that they might as well go along for the ride. As the Brisker Rav noted, Hashem doesn’t look at what Reshaim do; but he does look at what Tzaddikim do.

And since these Tzaddikim paskened there should be a State (albeit conditionally), Hashem fulfilled their psak – with the disastrous results that we have seen, R”L L”A.

As I wrote in that post, the Zionists have no answers.

bklynmom:

Yes, it is a no-brainer.

But the yetzer hara for this avoda zara of Zionism is so strong that people come to the completely opposite conclusion of what is staring them in the face.

If not for Zionism there never would have been an Entebbe. All that is anyways irrelevant.

Zionism is shmad. The Zionists have thrown Jews out of their houses and are plotting to throw many more out of the Beis Medrash, which is their country’s literal lifeblood. Yet people still want to daven for their success?

As well, there is a fundamental difference between generally davening for success of the Zionists and the davening for the Czar that you refer to. Davening for the Czar was in the context that Hashem should have him treat the Jews well. Davening for the Zionists, on the other hand, is more of a cart blanche.

As I mentioned above, we daven that Hashem keep all our brethren safe.

Let’s look at the facts (emes means truth, as in the objective truth, not subjective emotions).

There are some IDF soldiers who do protect some Jews.

There are also soldiers in countries around the world that also protect Jews.

It would make sense that the numbers would be higher in Israel, but this is irrelevant.

(In response to some IDF actions, some goyim have “retaliated” against innocent Jews because they believe the Zionists’ lies that Zionism=Judaism when, of course, the opposite is true. Yes, these goyim are wrong to do so, regardless. Obviously. But that doesn’t change the alleged “cause” of their actions, the IDF.)

Either way, the facts are that not all IDF soldiers protect Jews (some may have other missions), and certainly not all IDF soldiers protect all Jews.

You have also significantly diverged from observable truth by stating “…to protect and save the Jewish people from the enemies who wish to destroy us.”

What you mean is “…to protect and save the people living in Israel from the enemies who wish to destroy them/Israel.”

This is a very important distinction because your way propagandizes the Zionist bald-faced lies about Zionists claiming to be the universal protector of Jews.

Particularly for a screen name such as yours, more precision is required, in my humble opinion.

The bottom line is to daven for the safety of our brethren wherever they may be and let Hashem work out how to run His world.

Health:

Welcome back, all should always be well with you and everyone, and thank you.

Avram:

Thank you.

Sam2:

I am surprised you even had that hava amina.

I explicitly stated in that very same paragraph about Hashem’s “will” that “…bechira chafshis and other related matters, which of course do not in any way contradict Hashem’s omnipotence”.

I also wrote from the Brisker Rav how Tefillah can bring about disastrous results, with his case in point being the State of Israel.

So, the clear implication of that is that the State was (again) of course from Hashem, although it was a result of (terribly mistaken) tefillos to Hashem, not the kefirah of “reishit tzemichat geulateinu” (since you brought up kefirah) or any of that other nonsense.

Although you obviously don’t agree, my salient point to d.s., as “drey kup” wrote and as you surely realized (but which you probably don’t like), was and is “…it’s simply a non-starter that the mere existence of Zionism should somehow grant it any Torah legitimacy.”

davidsamual14:

By your “logic”, Hashem also wanted the Holocaust and every other tragedy to happen. Surely with your knowledge of esoteric concepts of Judaism you are more than familiar with bechira chafshis and other related matters, which of course do not in any way contradict Hashem’s omnipotence.

I pointed out the Brisker Rav’s daas Torah that the State of Israel came into being because observant people in Meah Shearim (were fooled by the Zionists and) prayed for the State to come into being (as well as some other reasons).

Since you mentioned Moshe Rabbeinu, you also likely know that had Moshe persisted in praying to be allowed in to E”Y, Hashem would have let him in to E”Y, which is why He told Moshe to stop praying because this was not Hashem’s will.

Both of these demonstrate the awesome power of Tefillah, not as you misinterpret it as Hashem not being in control, CH”V.

The Yetzer HaRa for this idolatry of Zionism is indeed powerful and tries to abuse the Torah in its defense, but, BE”H, everyone can overcome this if they simply open their eyes to the Daas Torah of our sages (and reality and history) instead of, liHavdil, Zionist propaganda.

Avram:

As to your other questions:

To answer your second question, let’s determine the goal of the prayers.

If your goal is to worship the idolatry of Zionism then praying for the State makes sense, as, unfortunately, our MO brethren have gone so far as to insert into their siddur.

If, however, your goal is to beseech G-d to protect the Jews who live in E”Y simply because they are our Jewish brethren (especially if you also understand that the State of Israel is a tremendous affront to Him), then the most logical conclusion is to simply pray for the safety of our brethren in E”Y and leave the “how-to” to G-d.

Then, if Hashem chooses to do so through the IDF, then that’s His choice. If, instead, He does so by bringing Mashiach now and ending this nonsense and kefira immediately and bloodlessly, that would, of course, be much better.

This was the same mistake made at the time of Israel’s founding. The Brisker Rav said that some observant Jews prayed for a State as their salvation in 1948 instead of for Hashem’s true salvation, and Hashem answered their prayers in kind, with the utter disaster we have seen, Hashem yiracheim.

So it would be very wise to not play G-d and simply pray for the well-being of our brethren and leave to G-d the running of His world.

Regarding politics, there is no question that Israel is held to a different standard than the standard to which the goyim hold (other) goy nations. Notice that all goyim refer to Israel as the “Jewish State” when Israel is, of course, a Zionist state and therefore not a Jewish State despite some Jewish trappings (somewhat like a chazir trying to vainly show it is kosher).

It seems pretty clear that Zionism is the reason for this treatment by the nations. Bilam stated (and Hashem put his words into the Torah) “Hein Am Livadad Yishkon uVaGoyim lo yischashav”. The Zionists are, of course, kofrim in this, too, while Hashem allows the nations of the world to make the Zionists live those words in constant and living refutation of their kefirah.

Regarding working for the State of Israel, while seemingly very ill-advised for any number of reasons, this is clearly an halachic issue that requires the advisement of an LOR.

davidsamual14:

By your logic, Moshe Rabbeinu, who adjudicated civil matters and said “Mi laHashem eilai” and “hirgu ish achiv”, would also be an abomination to Hashem.

The obvious answer is that, as I posted before, shalom and achdus are very important. Hashem even allows His name to be erased for Shalom, in the case of a Sotah. But Moshe Rabbeinu rightly proclaimed the above, despite the very obvious “discord between brethren” this could have caused.

davidsamual14,

Achdus is very nice and machlokes is not.

But idolatry and shmad are far worse. Zionism is idolatry. Zionism is shmad. As a “bonus”, Zionism is also hisgarus baUmos, et al.

Chareidim always understood the evils of Zionism and its terrible effects on Jews. At the time you speak of, at Israel’s founding in 1948, Chareidim there saw the Zionist atrocities against our people, known as Yaldei Tehran, among others. Chareidi opposition to Zionism goes back to the very inception of Zionism over a century ago, not a recent invention as you imply.

We should focus on one goal: understand the truth so that we can serve Hashem as best as we can.

GAW:

I don’t recall seeing your idea you mentioned in your PS. What was that?

Avram:

The point is not what, al pi halacha, the Zionists should do now but that everyone should be crystal-clear that they should never have started and about the damage the Zionists have done and continue to do to Klal Yisrael.

We know, today, what our gedolim have said and continue to hold regarding Zionism and what the Zionists have done and continue to do, some of which the Zionists could certainly stop without any potential problem. Other than that, we do not know what the future holds.

So, as to what the Zionists should do after the above, this is for the gedolim of the generation to deal with.

But people still believe in the heresy of Zionism and make it (part of) their faith.

So, again, the point is recognizing right (Torah) and wrong (any flavor of Zionism).