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littleapple – I highly doubt it’s as clear cut as you say. Let’s say a Mumar is related to you -you can’t give them anything to eat? I’d say you can because of Sholom. Let’s say the Tinok Shenishba is at a Kiruv party and the guy running it says -“Let’s e/o make a Blessing to G-d first and this is what you say -etc.” and the TS says -“No I won’t -I’m an atheist”. Would you be able to invite him back next time? I doubt it.
BH -“I hope you are wrong about those kids’ attitudes towards their parents and not considering them to be a BURDEN! Is it not a zechus?!”
It might be a Zecus, but some Mitzvos are harder than others. Taking care of elderly parents in the city/town where they lived most of their lives is much easier than when they first come to live near/by their kids (eg. Lakewood) when they are older!
I think the OP is more positive than I am about this place and I’ve been here many years. Unforntunately a lot of elders are moving here and are becoming burdens on their kids. If they would have stayed in the towns that they came from, even if they have kids in the same town, they usually don’t end up to be burdens because it’s hard for elders to get used to a new town.
ZK – “I’m not so fluent in Halacha (putting it mildly), but is that the din, “..the burden of proof is on him right now to prove he isn’t one..”? Maybe the burden of proof is on those that want to shake up this whole place! Is EVERY WORD written in every thread analyzed by Sherlock Jothar and Watson Health (magnifying glass and kit included, no extra charge). Does one lose ???? ????? (I think that’s the word!) for writing ONE EXTRA WORD?!?”
Besides the fancy dressup -your post is extremly demeaning. I have never posted anything derogatory against AYC -all I said is – he has to explain what he meant when he wrote he is a Kletzky. The fact that he was found to be upstanding does Not excuse that post. He might have made a mistake -he might have meant something else – I don’t know, but it is his job to explain it, not mine or s/o else or the Mods!
I don’t mind the Schnorring in Shuls and/or Weddings. It’s only slightly disturbing. So if a person has they can give -if not -not.
But the last couple of years here in Lakewood -we can now have sometimes a couple times a day schnorrers banging on the door. For people who learn or work out of the house -it probably isn’t really disturbing, but for s/o like me who does things by the computer it has been getting to me. Esp. since most don’t just knock once -they either do the sing-song knock or wait 30 seconds to a minute and knock again. It has started cutting into my time of doing things I have to!
littleapple -“Health: There are many nafka minas in whether a person’s halachic status is tinok shenishba, mumar l’teavon, mumar l’chachis, mechalel shabbos befarhesia, bephnay asara.”
This is exactly what I was refering to -find me a Navka Mina L’maysah between whether they are a Tinok Shnishba or a Mumar. And don’t tell me Mumar L’hachas because that (almost) doesn’t exist!
DH – I don’t know what the Nafka Mina would be? They say R’ Moshe held that Jews growing up in the NY area don’t have a Din of Tinok Shenishba. The only Nafka Mina would be how they are judged in Shomayim.
mynamesixonethree – I understand where you’re coming from. I don’t want to scare you, but this isn’t something to put off much longer. While most of the underlying problem of these symptoms are usually benign, these symptoms can sometimes represent something serious. You can go to one of these Frum Health Clinics -they have them in NYC, Monsey & Lakewood. Or perhaps ask your cousin to see you for free or at a discount.
“I went to have it checked out once and nothing was found and it was attributed to stress.”
To come to this conclusion/diagnosis -it has to be one of exclusion. Besides the H & P (including ortho vital signs), you’ll probably need blood work and perhaps an EKG and/or an echocardiograph.
moi aussi -“MiddlePath, your post could not have been written better. I’m surprised the mods allowed it, because it’s pointing the finger at them.
Smartcookie, you make a lot of sense when you say: “Btw, I was looking through AYC’s post where he writes I’m a kletzky. Looks to me like he meant to say- I am like the Kletzkys, I also had a family tragedy this summer.”
After reading the other posts/topics about this – I have to disagree. It is quite possible that he meant this and it’s quite possible he meant to manipulate. If he would e-mail the mods explaining his posting error -I’d think at that point we would have to be Dan L’caf Zecus. Right now we aren’t required to. The safety of the individual posters are more important.
“I’m wondering if the name Kletzky is the problem? If someone claimed to belong to the Twerski family would he/she also become a stalking suspect?
Smartcookie, I also agree that mods are not above making poor judgments. I will go even further by saying that mods are not above suspicion. NOBODY should be trusted, chabdehu vechashdehu applies to mods as well.
However, I will never understand what harm was done by AYC when he/she said “I am a Kletzky”. As I said earlier, if it’s true, what harm was done? If it’s a lie, who cares?”
If none of his post is true -it clearly points to stalker. I’m not in the security field, but it seems quite simple. The whole purpose of the lie was to continue the manipulation. Con men operate by gaining other’s trust. I don’t know if he is one, but the burden of proof is on him right now to prove he isn’t one.
It can. When you go for a regular eye exam by your Optometrist -they usually test for this disease.
GB – Show him this topic in the CR -“Quitting Smoking
mynamesixonethree – Some of the posters have mentioned some of the possibilities. Unfortunately for you -there are many more.
Diagnosing this common complaint requires a workup (sometimes even extensive). So my advice to you is -hopefully you have a good relationship with your PCP and make a long appt. with him/her to get to the bottom of this. You might not get an answer right away, but be persistant. If you don’t have a good relationship with your PCP, find another that you can have this type of relationship. Because how the PCP is able to illict a H & P -is how he/she will decide which direction to go in, eg. tests, etc.
PBA – Thanks – I was released from never-never land!
skiaddict -“But not working more than learning?”
Maybe this is ideal, but in our day & age -most of the time this isn’t practical.
“And only married men who need to support their wives it seems!”
What happened to supporting yourself when you don’t have a wife?
Not so long ago -kids would start working at around 6 years old.
The very top of the kids would stay in learning after that time to become the ones in Melechas Hakodesh. What you see nowadays in the Frum world is a new creation -it was never like this since the time of Matan Torah!
It takes about a year (or more) to get into med school from the time you apply.
Pashuteh Yid -“Health, I think the gemara says yalda lo yisa zakein, vzkeina lo yisa yeled because it is marbeh znus.”
Yes, they do say that, but it really means only that -a very old person to a child. I was talking about 40 -60 year olds to 20 -30 year olds. I started a post titled -“Who wants to be a Tzadaikes like Rus?”, where I discuss this at length.
SA -“In any case can someone just explain why then did Hashem give the mitzva o learn yomam velayla if people cant do it?”
Some have it easier than others, but that is what this world is all about -“Lfom Tzara Agra” But just realize if s/o isn’t learning as much as they can -they shouldn’t be put down for it. Unfortunately, one of the biggest things that others say about Bochurim when it comes to Shidduchim is -that they aren’t Massmidim. I think this is wrong! Who are you to judge what a Massmid is? You can’t judge by how many hours he puts in the Bais Medrash because he could be learning 1 hour out of 12 and a guy who comes for a hour & a half and learns the whole time is a bigger Massmid than the first guy!
kvodhatorah -I heard from a Shiur (taped) by Rabbi Krohn that it’s a Chiyuv to support your family/relatives before Yeshivos because of Oomebesorcah Lo Tisalem!
“hockaroundtheclock -You’re relatives don’t honor you at dinners, or give you plaques.”
He actually mentioned this in the Shiur.
mdd -“Health, the reason Rambam says “rauy” is because we are talking about people who were brought up in non-Torah views and are entrenched in them.”
I actually didn’t expect you to admit that you are wrong, but understand the Rambam means what he says & says what he means. You can chop & dice it up as much as you want to fit your agenda but for most of the rest of us – you can’t manipulate us that there is some sort of Chiyuv!
Sam2 -“Health: It is fair to compare reform and conservatives to the karaites that the Rambam had. This requires a bit further looking into.”
No one compared anyone to anyone, but the Rambam says there is No chiyuv to Mekarev Frei Yidden, even if they are Tinok Sneshbehs.
“What does the Rambam do with Kol Yisrael Areivim and Lo sa’amod Al Dam Re’acha here? This is an interesting thing to look into.”
That’s why I said he must not hold they are Bechlal Arvous, unless s/o comes up with another reason why there is No Chiyuv to be Mekarev.
“On a side note, even if there is no Chiyuv to be Mekarev that doesn’t mean that anyone, ever, has a right to push away someone who wants to come closer to Yiddishkeit.”
And how many times does a Frei Yid come knocking on anyone’s door asking them to be Mekarev him? If it ever happenned -it is a rare occurance!
soliek -“Health, please would you post the source upon which your opinion is based?”
Rambam -Shoftim -Hilchos Mamrim, Perek 3, Mishna 3 (last half).
He says “Roie” (fitting), he doesn’t “Chaiyuv” (obligated)!
mdd -“Health, you started it by spewing the preposterous slander against the BT and making monstrous, diabolic suggestions that we should not mekarev people.
Health, and creating ill-will, that you and the like-minded individuals create by their statements against BTs, is also nothing?”
This is your Paranoia! All I said is – we shouldn’t be making every Tom, Dick and Harry into BT’s! You keep proving my point! Did you ever look in the mirror, kiddo?
“Health, if they are tinokos she’nishbu, they are “Achicha” and “Reyacha”. If they are not , what’s with ” the exuse of being tinokos she’nishbu” that you mentioned?”
I already concided to you that they can be Achecha/Reyecha, since they are T.S., as long as you find another reason why there is No Chiyuv to Mekarev them! If you find no other reason, then I’ll have to assume that they aren’t Bechlal Arvous!
Sam2 -“You might think that it wasn’t worth it for someone to become frum if they will have trouble with parts of Bein Adam Lechaveiro. So I ask, in all seriousness, if you honestly believe that they (and therefore K’lal Yisrael and therefore the world) are better off with these people not doing any Mitzvos than with them doing the ones they are?”
YES, I Do! You obviously missed what I posted above. Here it is again – “At least when they were Frei -they had the excuse of Tinok Shenishba!”
Why do you think that embarassing s/o is a little nothing? When they are Frei & T.S. they still get Olam Haboh, but a Frum person who is Malbin Pnei etc., loses his!
And if you want to apologize to me, you have to admit that the reason I read it in an offensive manner, is because your posts were offensive!
soliek -“of which you are a paradigm, correct? fine. both of you are at fault. happy now?”
Your dismissal of my Taanos and your Bittul of me by saying I’m also at fault & “happy now”, is indicitive of a lack of Derech Eretz. Maybe your Rebbeyim put up or have put up with it, but I won’t. Maybe you should impress on yourself and your fellow posters how to talk and/or apologize. Until I see some of these things – you are knocking on the wrong door!
Ofcourse -“What makes you say that???? Ask Rabbonim. Thats “Hugh H—-r”esque. Yuck!”
You obviously didn’t read my post to BSD.
I’ll post it again -“I started a post titled -“Who wants to be a Tzadaikes like Rus?”, where I discuss this at length. Please go to that topic and after Reading the whole topic, please post any comments/questions over there.”
What you say Yuck on – is actually a Chesed!
soliek -“health…you are being a baby. …unless being petulant is your favourite pastime in which case…i truly pity you. you gain nothing by carrying on as you currently are.”
You don’t seem to have read my post to you in its entirety.
I’m not acting immature -I’m standing on principle. Did you ever hear of Derech Eretz Kodma L’torah? I said I would gladly post where this Rambam is but no one asked like a Mentch. And at this point, not only would e/o have to ask like Mentchin, but they would have to apologize for all their obnoxious posts!
Sam2 -“If there are some people who now keep 612 Mitzvos but can’t be Mikayim Veohavta Leraiacha Kamocha”
Sorry, you are seriously understating it. A person who has no idea what Bein Odom L’chaveiro is should not have become Frum. The abuse that I have been enduring here is more like Malbim Pnei Chaveiro etc. You might not know who I am, but there are probably readers who do know who I am. I’m not secretive about my posting here. I think you should reevaluate your priorities in life!
mazal77 -Excuse me -What about you? Luckily there are Shaddchunim who help out or we would all have to be busy day & nite making Shidduchim. If you know s/o whom isn’t being helped, you now have the Chiyuv to help. Call all your friends, relatives, etc.; do what you can to help this woman!
Sam2 -“How dare you say such a thing?”
And how dare the few posters including yourself degrade me like you did?
Stop with the Frum Dramatics!
I never said that no one should have made any BT’s, but just that making anyone or anything Frum is why we have the situation the way we do nowadays. There are those whom have Mental problems and there are those who spew Hatred at FFB’s; who needs these types to have become Frum? At least when they were Frei -they had the excuse of Tinok Shenishba!
soliek -“health: you do realize that by not sharing your sources you reveal one of two things. wither that you have no source in which case sam is right…”
First of all, your spelling is so poor that I have a hard time deciphering it.
Secondly, I actually did share – I said I heard it from a Shiur and I also said it is a Rambam. I was going to tell where this Rambam is, but not one person asked like a Mentch!
Why don’t you ask mdd where it is? Because he posted – “And I certainly did learn the sugya”!
Sam2 -“What right do you have to insult my parents? I don’t think defending the chain of Halacha and our Mesorah counts as being Chutzpa’dik or brought up incorrectly. And I have never claimed here to have learned in YU. But it’s nice of you to slander an institution as teaching their Bochurim improper middos just because you want to.”
I thought you learnt in YU, but s/o is responsible for not bringing you up properly, either your Yeshiva where you Did learn or your parents!
I will remind you of what you posted that reeks from Chutzpa, in case you think -“I didn’t write anything improper”!
1. “Ain Zu Darka Shel Torah.”
2. “you appear to be superimposing your own expectations of what Halacha should be over the actual Halacha. Doing so is a serious problem in Yiddishkeit at the moment (on both ends of the “political” spectrum) and should never be done.”
mdd -“I just would like to remind the olam here why Health is so adamant that is only(sic!) a Mitsva (in his opinion) to mekarev frei Yidden and not a Chiyuv.”
I’m adamant because that’s what the Rambam says!
“It is because he thinks that much less Kiruv should be done. Those few that are being brought closer should undergo special screening. Afterwards, they are going to be told who be allowed(sic!) to be frum and who should stay frei!!!!”
Your hateful posts towards me just proves my point! Too bad such a system wasn’t in place by you and I wouldn’t have to respond to all your nasty comments!
Ofcourse -“Thats between each individual man and Hashem, but IMHO Hashem would be pleased if they did and encouraged others to do the same.”
And Hashem would be pleased if a 20 y.o. girl married a 40 -50 y.o. old guy and encouraged others to do the same. It works both ways.
Sam2 – Wow -you didn’t learn from my post and you continue with your Chutzpa! Who brought you up like this -your parents or YU where you learned?
I posted this above -“To BTguy also -If you look in the Chofetz Chaim and the Rambam -you’ll see why I’m saying all that I did.”
It’s the Rambam, but after your posts -I’m definitely Not telling you where!
BSD -“Health-In a nutshell, how is this against the torah?”
Please go to that topic and after Reading the whole topic, please post any comments/questions over there.
Ofcourse -“Thats doable even if the girl gets married in her mid to upper twenties. If she gets married at 30, it might be tragic (sarcastic), perhaps she’d only have 5 kids.”
The poster’s statement mentioned nothing about age. You started arguing with me about girls in their twenties – I was talking about All ages! Some people are happy with 5 -8 kids and some aren’t. A neighbor of mine wants 12 -14 kids -so don’t make generalizations to fit your agenda.
Like I said, since I’m a man and I speak to other men -Most won’t marry older women. There probably are a few reasons why not -I just mentioned one of them!
BSD -“Maybe there should be a new takana-No more cradle snatchers.”
Such a Takana would be against the Torah. I started a post titled -“Who wants to be a Tzadaikes like Rus?”, where I discuss this at length!
Sam2 -“Health: Ain Zu Darka Shel Torah. You cannot come with a conclusion in mind and re-work sources to fit that conclusion.”
Actually I’m quite shocked at your post. As a Bocher I wouldn’t expect such Chutzpah from you, like I get from some other posters!
“You have to have proofs that there is no Chiyuv to be Mekarev. You cannot just assume that you are right and that there must be another proof out there somewhere.”
I’ve posted these proofs above. It’s says clearly -Mefurishe Diyuk that you don’t have a Chiyuv to Mekarev anyone. I’m sorry that you’re too lazy to look it up!
The only thing I possibly conceded to was that I learned P’shat- the reason there is no Chiyuv was because they aren’t Bechlal Arvous, but if you give me another reason why there is no Chiyuv, I’ll accept this statement of -that they are Bechlal Arvous!
Queen Bee -“Are guys okay with marrying girls older than them? Or is that seen as a big turn-off?”
Most won’t because it limits the couple’s child-bearing years!
Mir – “i believe that they only wanted the full time learner out of peer pressure.”
Most people in Kollel today whether the men or their wives, are doing it because it’s the style. Long gone are the days from the Alte Heim when only Yechidey Segulah sat and learned all day.
lemaysa -“but just because he’s a drug addict doesnt necciserly mean he’s gonna spend his money on drugs theres a chiyuv to be dan likaf zichus evey yid in klal yisroel..”
There’s two things going on at the same time -you might have to Dan L’caf Zecus & possibly two Issurim like Sam mentioned. So if there is a good chance he will use the money to buy drugs -it would be Ossur to give him money. If you know that – let’s say for example, he is in a Methadone program -so most of his drugs come from there, you can give him money because it’s unlikely he will spend it on drugs. But on the other hand, if he isn’t, he will probably spend his money on drugs which yours is a part of. This would be Ossur!
mdd – I could agree with your statement, if you come up with another reason why there is no Chiyuv to Mekarev Frei Yidden.
I don’t have another reason why there is no Chiyuv, just that they aren’t Amecha/Achecha. If you tell me another reason, why there is no Chiyuv, I could accept your statement.
Wolf – Sorry to burst your inferiority complex bubble, but I am very science oriented and you aren’t correct. An addiction is something craved by the body which the body doesn’t need and more often than not is harmful to the body. It starts with a psychological craving and can end up being a physical one. O2 doesn’t qualify in this definition.
As a side note those whom frequent oxygen bars could possibly become psychologically attached to the oxygen there. That oxygen is for kicks, not to maintain homeostasis!
Sam – thanks for responding for me.
soliek -“i see no reason why the chiyuv to be mekarev isn’t a kal v’chomer of Lo Saamod Al Dam Reecha.”
I’ll repeat it again – There is No Chiyuv to Mekarev anyone. The Posuk you just quoted says “Reyecha” – A Frei person isn’t in this category. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t, just that you aren’t Mechuyav to. Unless they are doing the Aveiros L’hachas, which in this case you have to let them rot, but this is very rare nowadays.
“then i see no reason why Lo Saamod Al Dam Reecha doesnt apply.”
True, if you see a Frum person starting to go OTD -you can’t stand idly by – because of Lo Saamod!
To BTguy also -If you look in the Chofetz Chaim and the Rambam -you’ll see why I’m saying all that I did.
Kol Tuv.
2scents -“All EMTs and MEdics know the first rule of pre hospital care, Scene safety!”
Yea they all know the rule, but how many practice it? Can you tell me how many accidents were caused by first -responders this year or they don’t cause any? Think before you post and criticize s/o else.
GAW – “1: I am married to a wonderful person (with wonderful children, BH).”
Sorry, got you mixed up with another poster.
“2: I don’t live in Lakewood (not to disrespect others that do, but it is not for me).”
Well wherever you live, I’m glad that unmarried men have an easy time getting dates.
always runs with scissors fast -While it’s nice to feel for others even druggies, your response is purely emotional. While I’m not saying being emotional is a bad thing, but you can’t let your emotions overide the Torah. It’s Ossur to give a druggie money if you’re pretty sure he will buy drugs with the money!
BTguy – I understand where you are coming from. But the way I understand the Halacha there is no way he can mean it as a P’sak Din. That’s why I wrote – “If you told me you called him personally and he told you there is such a Chiyuv -then I would call him up and discuss the Halacha with him.”