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  • in reply to: starting to date #1007760
    Logician
    Participant

    Torah613 –

    You should not date if you are UNable to be a good husband and future father. That much is true.

    in reply to: Does anybody realize the implications? #1007689
    Logician
    Participant

    ROB – I never said a word about infallible. We just read last week about the special korbanos of a Nasi and of Beis Din that errs.

    [Of course, this is even without taking into account the (very logical) assumption that a person with greater spiritual heights, plus a communal responsibility, will have more siyata dishmaya.]

    Did you really not get me ? One of the main topics stirred up by the Slifkin affair was the binding nature of Agadda. He, and many others, quote several Rambams in Pirush haMishnayos, which they understand to mean that he won’t pasken divrei Agada. Of course, in Yad HaChazaka he paskens several of those same issues…

    The basic problem with the position is that it is very halachically significant to know if someone is a kofer/min etc, and that depends if their beliefs are correct – but the issues of correct beliefs are (mostly) Agada!

    Incidentally – if I quote you seforim from this past century, that’s not ok. If you decide not to follow, that’s your issue, but to say there’s no basis to – are you claiming that these many seforim (written by people whom, even if you don’t follow their opinions, I assume you acknowledge to be men of great stature) are therefore just foolish ?!

    If you’d like to continue to discuss, lets move this out of this thread. I’m also reading the main topic, and its confusing!

    (And do read the R’ Dessler I referenced – he puts forwards the ideas clearly, and you won’t be challenging me on points I’m not actually saying).

    in reply to: Does anybody realize the implications? #1007681
    Logician
    Participant

    benignuman –

    Sigh. Did you actually follow the discussion ? I didn’t say otherwise. I questioned how yichusdik balances his opinion with what gedolim say. My comment was an answer to his response – I did not say that he has to follow any particular person due to that rule.

    -And yes, the concept has been applied to at the very least a attitude towards their opinions, in myriads of seforim for eons.

    -And the statement is explained Iin Rishonim) both in the sense of being binding when they’re wrong, and to a wise assumption that usually the error will be on your part.

    ROB – I believe you misunderstand the Rambam’s comments about Agadita, and so I believe YOU’d have to show me otherwise. We’ll save it for the next time a slifkin thread surfaces, eh ?

    -You can do what you want with R’ Dessler, butif you’re taking sources like that into account, I don’t think its quite right to make snide remarks about ‘modern inventions’. [ARE you familiar with that and similar essays, or are you saying you just don’t care ?]

    -There aren’t enough threads with you debating those topics ? My point was simply not to blow me away by saying there’s no need to follow directives on the topic by blaming it on being a purely Hashkafic discussion.

    OK, I’ll try not to interrupt any more, this thread can go back to its stated topic.

    in reply to: Does anybody realize the implications? #1007663
    Logician
    Participant

    Apropos for Purim – A lesson in Emunas Chachamim from the Megillah

    Recommended reading: Michtav M’Eliyahu Vol. 1, page 75-77.

    I will happily follow the ‘modern invention’ of R’ Dessler, despite the alarming reservations of one ROB.

    in reply to: Does anybody realize the implications? #1007661
    Logician
    Participant

    1) Ah, so Halacha has no bearing on the question of entering the IDF ?

    2) I assume you’re you referring to the Torah view on Divrei Rshus as ‘milei d’alma’. In which case you’re simply falling for the common error that “there is no pask in Hashkafa/Agadata”. In which case I withdraw from this conversation, because it will be pointless to try to hash that out here.

    3) It is a modern invention that this applies to every saying of a Rov.

    Nor did I say so. I said that the way I understood yichusdik’s post, I saw no room for such a mehalech.

    in reply to: Million Man Atzeres #1020514
    Logician
    Participant

    Sam2 – I don’t know what ‘statements by Gedolim’ you’re referring to. While there is a strong push to learn, I’ve never heard a statement in my life saying anything like that, and I’ve spent my whole life in Chareidi Yeshivos in both US and EY.

    However, you are certainly correct that for a large percentage of life-time learners, the issue is not only the draft. No one here has really responded to that.

    in reply to: Is it appropriate to propose at kotel #1007523
    Logician
    Participant

    JF02 –

    Shulchan Aruch 98:1

    and not only children.

    Not during davening is questionable.

    in reply to: Does anybody realize the implications? #1007659
    Logician
    Participant

    Afilu omrim luch al yemin ahe’hu smol.

    Who do I think that applies to ? Not relevant. According to you, nobody.

    in reply to: Does anybody realize the implications? #1007652
    Logician
    Participant

    Sorry, just don’t get it.

    Firstly, I specifically said that if you’re just throwing out the question, and don’t mean to say that due to your understanding otherwise you don’t have to listen (which I did feel was implied in your post), then I’ve no issue. So no straw man – I explicitly excluded that possibility from my comment.

    As to the issue itself – you can go on ad on about how sick it is, but you’re not answering my point: if you DESERVE an explanation from someone, and feel entitled to disregard what they say due to your having imbibed enough wisdom to decide things for yourself, then you simply cannot claim to be believing in, or following, anyone. They’re just there to rubber-stamp your position, or at best provide occasional input.

    in reply to: Does anybody realize the implications? #1007637
    Logician
    Participant

    the flock they lead deserve to see where they are going and how they will get there.

    In other words, we follow only when we understand. In other words, we don’t follow. When you give us a good idea, that we happened not to think of ourselves, we accept.

    I haven’t shared my opinion on the definition of emunas chachamim. But the above attitude is is not emunas anything.

    in reply to: When Should College Guys Start Dating? #1007477
    Logician
    Participant

    Syag – thumbs up.

    As far as too young – there is NO such thing as a right age. If you feel that way (and your reasons/feelings are validated by the Torah figure in your life), then you’re ready.

    If you’re parents honestly feel that you’re not ready, however [and not just that your’re ‘too young’], then its probably very worthwhile to hear and consider why they feel so.

    in reply to: Does anybody realize the implications? #1007621
    Logician
    Participant

    This has nothing to do with the madrega of the Chofetz Chaim. He explicitly explained that the existence of Yeshivos are ABOVE derech hateva, and will always be so. [This has nothing to do, perhaps, with any individual’s decision to learn.]

    in reply to: Does anybody realize the implications? #1007620
    Logician
    Participant

    Your issues may be legitimate. I haven’t really read it through. I’m not sure what you’re answering, though. Are you saying that they’re only here to help you form your own ability to think, and now you’ve no need to follow ?! Certainly that process should happen, and you should have the ability to make decisions on your own. But if they explicitly instruct you one way, you don’t listen ?

    If what you mean is that you’re not questioning l’mayseh, but are just trying to understand, then I withdraw my question.

    in reply to: starting to date #1007751
    Logician
    Participant

    Why do you care the slightest what is considered late ? Are you really going to jump into something like marriage because of others’ perception ?

    Based on your feelings and reasons (which I would hope you would filter through the Torah figure in your life), make your own decision, and Hatzlacha!

    in reply to: Is it appropriate to propose at kotel #1007516
    Logician
    Participant

    You don’t know what I’m getting at ? Did I say something ? I quoted a source. You don’t like it ? You disagree ?! You have a differing one ?

    What does your beautiful little monologue have to do with anything ? Because you’re supposed to learn from them, that gives you the right to interpret their actions according to your understanding ?

    Pshat does not mean the first thought that pops into our puny little minds. It is the meaning of the words themselves, not what the words represent or hint to. The meaning of those ‘simple’ words, however, are still subject to only certain possible choices, and there can certainly be invalid ones [a common misunderstanding].

    Anyhow, we are hijacking this thread. I’m much more interested in your answers to my response to YOUR post.

    in reply to: R' Chaim Kanievsky answers Purim Questions #1007227
    Logician
    Participant

    There are plenty of seforim presenting basic halacha in a clear format. To publish one under the guise of “R’ Chaim’s tshuvos” is simply a marketing tool, and is as abusive of R’ Chaim as the actual houning him with the questions in the first place. I don’t know if R’ Chaim minds, nor do I think that is relevant.

    Gedolim today are like the Kosel – a backdrop for a photo.

    in reply to: Does anybody realize the implications? #1007617
    Logician
    Participant

    emunas chachomim may be one, but ein somchin al ha nes is another.

    What exactly does this mean ? That we listen to our leaders up to a point, but when my reasoning takes me elsewhere I drop them ?

    in reply to: Is it appropriate to propose at kotel #1007514
    Logician
    Participant

    LF – I’m not quite understanding how you are mixing the need for privacy, with the awe of the place.

    Equating a quiet, private conversation with a kidushin ? I don’t think so.

    in reply to: Is it appropriate to propose at kotel #1007513
    Logician
    Participant

    Oh, excuse me! I didn’t realize that our resident Bible Critic was logged in.

    Ah, if only R’ Aron could have met you, and you would have set him straight from his uneducated and juvenile ways!

    in reply to: Is it appropriate to propose at kotel #1007507
    Logician
    Participant

    I personally feel very strongly against the many inappropriate “uses” the Kosel is put to, which turn it into a tourist attraction at best, and often much worse.

    In this case, I just can’t see anything inappropriate with it serving as a setting for a proposal. (As opposed to, say, when kallah’s come to use it as a background for their pictures on their wedding day – don’t get me started!)

    This is a completely different discussion from the appropriateness of different ways of proposing, many of which employ a levity which perhaps detracts from the seriousness and importance of what’s occurring, and is what I imagine most people really have a problem with when they say they have a problem with “proposals”.

    Someone who does indeed have a problem with proposals per se should better address the main issue of the way we date, of which our proposals are only a natural outgrowth.

    in reply to: R' Chaim Kanievsky answers Purim Questions #1007222
    Logician
    Participant

    I think Haleive is 100% right. A few of the questions were interesting, but the majority were clear cut halacha that anyone could/should know. Certainly any Rav. Just because R’ Chaim answers any question sent to him, does that mean we have to perster him for no reason just to print a sefer with his answers, or show off to one’s friends your own personal tshuva ?

    Boo-Hah to all!

    in reply to: Is it appropriate to propose at kotel #1007505
    Logician
    Participant

    Yaakov Avinu met Rochel at the well and fell in love.

    The following is a rough translation of a paragraph written by R’ Aron Kotler ztz”l. It is part of an essay bemoaning the juvenile and uneducated way people understand chumash:

    Another example of a parsha in the Torah which people in the street understand in a distorted fashion is the story of Yakov and Rochel … if we evaluate this story by mixing in even a hint of personal desires, we have offended greatly towards Yakov, whose image is engraved on the Kisei HaKovod … furthermore, there is no basis at all to such an understanding … thus such an explanation is certainly a perversion, and indeed blasphemous.

    in reply to: Finding my zivug #1006548
    Logician
    Participant

    You have to stop being so picky, and go out of your comfort zone. There’s a lot of nice pens floating around the house w/out their caps… it might just work, why not try.

    in reply to: maybe we all should stop getting drunk on purim #1056591
    Logician
    Participant

    PBA – all these Purims and all these threads later, and you’re still responding enthusiastically to the drinking threads. Wow!

    in reply to: How much is a woman's Torah worth #1006367
    Logician
    Participant

    Al Tidag, that’s how I understood you.

    in reply to: How much is a woman's Torah worth #1006365
    Logician
    Participant

    Sam2 – contrast that with the Maharal in Nesivos, who says that its worthwhile to learn the proper way (i.e. through learning the sugya and coming to a conclusion), despite the fact that you will sometimes err and do what’s wrong, instead of learning from the “modern” compendiums.

    in reply to: How much is a woman's Torah worth #1006364
    Logician
    Participant

    writersoul – sorry, you misunderstood. My “even” was not due to inherent limitations, but just meant that even men who def. HAVE to learn, have that problem. And so there’s good reason to limit it’s possibility by women, where its not mandated, as Sam2 quoted.

    in reply to: How much is a woman's Torah worth #1006358
    Logician
    Participant

    I emphasize with interjection and writersoul’s frustrations. I’ve observed the schoolwork done by many of my female relatives, from a wide range of schools, and have always imagined that many feel this way.

    [but pretty much accessible to those on any skill level]

    Halacha is more sticky. Even by men we find a lot of guys in the situation of “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing”, paskening for themselves (or deciding when they don’t need a psak) with they’re own sevaros, while being pretty incompetent. As is often demonstrated to such posters here by the more knowledgeable amongst us. So while some comprehension is def. needed, it’s not so simple where to draw the line between useful background understanding, and unnecessary info which gives the illusion of a comprehensive grasp.

    in reply to: Bringing Moshiach Together! #1006097
    Logician
    Participant

    Yet the Chofetz Chaim always stresses that we should fix Lashon Hara and Sinas Chinam, precisely because they got us into this mess, and we can’t get out w/out fixing them.

    in reply to: leining megillas esther #1006536
    Logician
    Participant

    Am pretty sure that I remember a mispalel by R’ Avigdor Miller ztz”l telling me that this is how megilah was lained there.

    in reply to: How much is a woman's Torah worth #1006342
    Logician
    Participant

    Seforim propose the idea that now that Torah SheB’chsav was written, the role of “Sinai” (a.k.a. memorizing) is much less important.

    Agree with PBA, and would add that even if you should memorize, the fact that all information being absorbed must be processed with proper understanding would preclude such a statement anyhow.

    in reply to: How much is a woman's Torah worth #1006341
    Logician
    Participant

    How many threads do we have here mixed up in one ?

    in reply to: How much is a woman's Torah worth #1006340
    Logician
    Participant
    in reply to: How much is a woman's Torah worth #1006320
    Logician
    Participant

    No, most of learning is not rote memory. While we are absorbing information, the main focus is on understanding it properly. Reading comp. is certainly part of it, but the main thing is the logical analysis involved. Readers here may disagree with me, but that’s a huge conversation of its own, involving a misunderstanding of the idea of limud bekius.

    Here’s a thought. Since learning Torah is not a mitzvah shehazman grama, why wouldn’t a woman be just as mechuyiv in it as a man?

    Here’s a thought. Go learn, and then start a discussion in learning.

    in reply to: How much is a woman's Torah worth #1006309
    Logician
    Participant

    Redleg – if you think learning is all about reading comprehension…

    interjection –

    1)From what I see, working men are not more available for their wives. If anything, they have much less flexible schedules. And if a working guy puts in some time learning, they’re really unavailable.

    2)Taking care of kids, like all wives. So you mean that you also work – yes, we’re discussing being the enabler.

    3)True, but don’t minimize men’s desires for gashmiyus either!

    Of course learning is tov bazeh uba’buh. But it takes tremendous discipline as well, and often giving up on other things, so its not exactly like someone here wants schar for putting their feet up and enjoying themselves.

    For what it’s worth, I agree that women have been conditioned to hear Torah a certain way.

    GAW – far as I know, Yisocher and Zevulen split schar. Obviously one will get more schar for more effort – we we’re discussing the inherent part of the learner vs. the enabler.

    I don’t know which meforshim you’re referring to, but learning Metzudos, Redak and Malbim is in no way similar to learning Gemara.

    in reply to: Are There Any Challalim Today? #1006016
    Logician
    Participant

    Thanks. Didn’t remember the source, so I was showing how it has to be so.

    in reply to: Are There Any Challalim Today? #1006014
    Logician
    Participant

    Was someone’s post deleted ? Cuz now mine makes no sense.

    Yes. Someone had brought up the topic of mamzeirim and your post made sense as a response.

    in reply to: How much is a woman's Torah worth #1006302
    Logician
    Participant

    I believe the following is relevant as per the home vs. intellectual pursuits:

    If I have a stimulating Torah thought, my wife will often be the wrong person for me to turn to for sharing. Yet I am rarely as intellectually stimulated as when I discuss my children with her. The insights into the similarities and differences in their natures, and the smart and helpful way of dealing with their various needs which she comes up with is amazing – and as intellectual as the psychology texts I sometimes read.

    in reply to: How much is a woman's Torah worth #1006301
    Logician
    Participant

    DY – true. Perhaps I was just taking those comments in the way I’ve heard many say before. If you are just saying that there be other factors in play which impair a proper logical conclusion, that’s something else.

    in reply to: How much is a woman's Torah worth #1006300
    Logician
    Participant

    Wow, funny to see that post from a woman…

    In their defense, I think that these same women in regard to secular studies would not necessarily do so… It’s not enough to think well, you need to understand the system you work in – so if you’re not trained for it, you won’t have the “chush” to understand what’s a valid way of interpreting Torah sources.

    in reply to: Are There Any Challalim Today? #1006013
    Logician
    Participant

    If mamzeirim mixed into Klal Yisroel far enough back c”v, we’re in pretty bad shape.

    in reply to: How much is a woman's Torah worth #1006294
    Logician
    Participant

    How did career suddenly become equally important as family ? I though you were defending the woman’s pursuit of spiritual fulfillment independent of her family – where does the role of a career come in ?

    in reply to: How much is a woman's Torah worth #1006293
    Logician
    Participant

    DY – that’s right, I don’t.

    I might agree with your assumption. In which case we should not be saying, as someone earlier did (and you agreed) that their thought process inherently lacks logic.

    I have seen R’ Wolbe z”l understand it in an entirely different light. I wouldn’t want to limit his words to my take on them – Alei Shur Chelek Beis page 192. I can understand why someone wouldn’t agree to read that into this halacha, but at least it’s a perspective on women that I can understand (though I’m sure many would be insulted).

    BYM – I agree entirely with DY’s response to you. Though I would add that this new reality does requires a proper, realistic response – as I indicated in my last post.

    in reply to: what book should i read??? #1006556
    Logician
    Participant

    Instead of waiting for suggestions to come in, see other identical threads.

    in reply to: How much is a woman's Torah worth #1006284
    Logician
    Participant

    You are correct, but your reading is still untenable. “Their minds are not lend themselves to education” is how I’m understanding you’re reading. Firstly, that is a funny way of expressing the idea that they are not logical in thought, in my opinion. Secondly, I see the outcome of such a problem in that they will err in their understanding of Torah/Halacha. I would not say that that would lead them to turn divrei Torah into “divrei havai”. And I persoanally think its absurd to say that women can’t think logically. If you want to say women are more ’emotionally-driven’, that would make sense only as to the weight they will give to the emotional aspect of a situation, not to the inability to process the different aspects logically.

    According to your understanding, how do the poskim say that the minority of women can learn themselves – the ones who’ve decided that they are logical ?!

    Interjection – I don’t think that’s not an honest portrayal of the situation. Number one, you are taught certain subjects. Those are not the ones which lead to the name calling you refer to, if one wishes to continue to pursue them. Secondly, the fact that its considered important today for women to have a certain grounding in Torah does make it an ideal for them to continue to pursue it. After all, no one taught you that its the “most important thing for YOU, did they ?

    I do think its absurd to encourage women to develop intellectually for 18 years, and then to think they’ll be ok to just shut off and be satisfied with diaper-changing.

    That last comment makes you sound very bitter about SOMETHING. Why exactly should an enabler of Torah get all/most of the reward over the ones who learns ?

    in reply to: R' Moshe's Psak On Pizza #1005647
    Logician
    Participant

    slightly off topic ?!

    in reply to: How much is a woman's Torah worth #1006265
    Logician
    Participant

    golfer – ‘ain mischavnos’ lihislamed. You may think they don’t get educated, but to say they’re deliberately not trying to ?

    GAW:

    1)I don’t think it’s irrelevant at all. The poskim learn that the reason she can learn herself, is because she knows that her intention are correct. The majority are not, and therefore the father’s do not teach.

    Now we have a situation when a great many feel like learning. So we can draw one of two conclusions: Either they mistakenly think they are in the minority (in which they should stop), or the numbers have changed, in which the halacha should be that they may be taught as well. So I think in dealing with today’s reality the distinction you’re making may not be relevant.

    2)The poskim seem to differentiate the learning for knowledge of Halacha, and learning for learning. It may be part of the each individual mitzvah, as opposed to the mitzva of limud. (Discussed in regard to why they may make birchas HaTorah.) In any event it would not require them to learn those topics, just to be familiar with when sheilos arise. See Aruch HaShulchan. But irregardless of the lomdus, yes, women should definitely not be learning Yalkut while being ignorant of how to act on Shabbos and in the kitchen. But that would be true even if they would not get schar for that limud.

    in reply to: Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF) #1005836
    Logician
    Participant

    ROB – stick to your arguments and don’t try to catch him on a side point. Your comparison of his statement to Reform ideology is severely flawed; the basic premise he stated can be found in numerous seforim. It is also an important one, because no matter what side of this debate you are, we all agree to the tragic state of the secular nature of the state, and there is no question that an overemphasis on this one mitzvah (great as it may be) was a large factor in swaying people.

    in reply to: Sabotage #1007421
    Logician
    Participant

    As soon as a thread is closed, you can be sure someone will start one questioning it. What a fun game.

    I recently participated in two threads that got closed.

    In one, I got the last word. Obviously I thought I did have the ‘last word’ on the subject, but it didn’t seem fair!

    On the more recent one, the last post went to the OP, who posted a most outrageous (and silly) accusation against (though she may not have realized who was included in her target) many Gedolim. The discussion was def. not headed anywhere good – but what a note to end off on.

    in reply to: How much is a woman's Torah worth #1006261
    Logician
    Participant

    I mean, c’mon.

    Equal to shofar ? Why’re you exclusively focusing on the schar, not on the fact that he says they should not be taught ? If your interest is solely on what their olam haba will look like (for some reason), you have your Rambam, why the thread. And if you’re opening a discussion on the wider question of how that fits into their role, then (assuming we’re allowed to talk about it) the part you left out is much more crucial.

    Incidentally, how are you understanding “l’hislamed” ?

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