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@ DY
Excellent responses, as usual.
Let’s be clear, learning Torah is not some side gig that contributes to your “overall sense of accomplishment”. Every Jewish man has an obligation to learn to the fullest extent of his G-D given abilities and resources. And then some. Small business, skilled trades, and professional services coupled with a frugal lifestyle are often means of maximizing the time one can commit to learning.
A couple of thoughts re: the op
1) Even the perushim in the time of the GR”A were involved in parnassa matters 2 hours per day (per other versions 3-4 hours per day).
2) Teaching limudei Kodesh and Rabbinical posts don’t leave one with a lot of time to learn.
Mindless peer parotting is a symptom of immaturity / low self esteem. Though the heavy emphasis in some places on conformity exacerbates the problem.
@ DY
“So change the law. Suing a yeshiva out of existence isn’t the answer. The people who will suffer aren’t the perpetrators or enablers.”
Agreed. Much better to go after the perps and any individual who knew or should have known what was happening. Perps and their enablers hop from institution to institution. On the other hand such a law might dissuade those who would try to “deal with the problem internally” so as to protect the reputation of a prominent family or institution.
@ takes3
“Tikkun olam is a non orthodox concept. There is no such concept in the Torah. Well, at least not how you mean it… the entire concept of tikkun olam was made up by liberal jews.”
This is a mistake. The concept of tikkun olam is very much Torah concept. What the secularists did was perverted the concept and used it as a substitute for Torah and Mitzvot.
Chessed is one of the 3 pillars of the world. Rav Moshe called America a medina shel chessed. He didn’t mean that they learn and live Tomer Devorah or Chumash Rashi. Now, chessed can be perverted. It can also be used as a substitute to Torah. That’s bad. Very. That doesn’t mean one gets to say that chessed is not a Torah concept.
שלי שלי ושלך שלך זה מדה בינוני וי”א זה מידת סדום
On the other hand how can a frum Yid support a Party that (for starters)
-supports abortion on demand, partial birth abortions, funding planned parenthood even after…
-supports same gender “marriages”, supports mandatory education that such unions are moral
-is openly pro Palestinian / anti-Israel (even the better ones among them equivocate between them)@ SH
“In fact, we often “laugh” at those who we percieve to be doing Mitzvos in order to get Schar.”
Why laugh? Someone who gives Tzedaka so his son will live or to be zoche to olam haba is a Tzadik Gamur. The Gemoro says so. Furthermore mitooch shlo l’shmah ba l’shmah.
Furthermore who is talking about doing Mitzvos to get schar? The subject is doing Mitzvos to bring Moshiach. It was regarding this the eBurntFace posted the very relevant vort from the Ger Rebbe.
“Hashem made this world, and put us on it, and gave us Mitzvos Maasiyos, in order for us to make him a Dirah B’tachtonim. The culmination of that, is Bias HaMoshiach. We do Mitzvos because we are commanded to do so, but this is the reason why Hashem set up the world in such a fashion.”
Really? That is The Reason?? That is mamish the Tachlis HaBriah? (I assume) you well know Moshiach and Dira Btachtonim is not the end game עין לא ראתה אלקים זולתך ואכמ”ל. But I digress…
Knowing that the redemption is our destiny and anticipating / hoping for Moshiach is one thing. Making bringing Moshiach either the motivation for or intent of performing Mitzvot is another. When individuals or communities became fixated on this in the past the results where catastrophic.
@ laskern
“…We do mitzvos with greater ferver when we know the reason for doing it. The Sefer Hachinuch is based on this idea”
+1
I would just modify the statement from “the reason” to “one of the reasons”.
Your point and eBurntFace’s point can actually stand together quite harmoniously. I think he is saying that ultimately our intent in doing Mitzvos is because Hashem said so. He is speaking to the issue that people have decided that they ought to do mitzvos with the intent of bringing about a certain effect / result. That’s not ok. That’s Hashem’s department, not ours.
Now, deepening our knowledge of and therefore appreciation of Hashem’s intent for saying so is certainly not only meretricious it is our obligation. Mitzvos are the means which Hashem gave us to connect to Him. To merely perform one’s obligations robotically like one discharging their obligation is not the pinnacle of a close relationship. I don’t think eBurntFace is disagreeing with that.
Gut Shabbos
@ CS
” The truth is pretty much all those over the top quotes the REBBE himself made about the Frierdiker Rebbe, his Rebbe, the year after his histalkus. Including the Rebbe saying he is with us in this Gashmius world, running the world by being morer rachamim above etc. So we haven’t gone crazy. We’re just following in our Rebbe’s ways. And as the Rebbe was acknowledged as a tzadik by many other gedolei Yisrael…”
The Gedolim who understood the last Lubavitcher Rebbe’s words the way you do did not acknowledge him as such. The ones who did where 1) unaware of the controversial statements OR 2) where aware of them but refused to believe that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe actually said them, OR 3) understood the statements in line with how SH and Username do.
The scope of my disagreement with SH and Username are nuanced, not unique to Chabad, and a distraction from the more pressing issues being addressed . I am sure they realize that in this case shtika is not k’hodah.
@ CS
“when you look at the results you will see it is the truth. If it really was a problem and distracted from Hashem, then MY generation would have mostly forgotten Hashem cvs or Chabad would have broken down and joined other groups as many predicted. The fact that not only are we not decreasing, but we’re growing stronger shows something”
The truth? Hardly. I do concede that it does show something…just not what you think.
@ NCB
“You’re missing my point.”
I do understand and appreciate your point.
“Take the way you feel about the Litvish customs apply that as the feeling Lubavitchers have about not sleeping in the Sukkah. Now take the way you feel about Lubavitchers not sleeping in the Sukkah and apply that as the feeling they have about the Litvish practices I mentioned.”
My position regarding litvish customs is not based on a feeling it’s based on reason. I’m not willing to equivocate between the two. Judging by your response, neither are you.
@ NCB
I don’t agree with you that the shaving and korbanos policies were silly.
Bochurim shaving goes back to a consideration the Roshei Yeshivas had before the war and very much applied in the US after the war as well. This policy greatly enhanced kavod HaTorah and ultimately harbatzes HaTorah. Also, in communities where only the Rebonim had beards it is very much machzi k’yuhera for unmarried bochurim to do the same.
According to the GR”A we should be starting with Baruch Sh’amar in Shul, as s it is we are already being machmir to start before that. If someone wants to say Korbanos before the minyan starts what’s stopping them? Keep in mind that making things longer won’t necessarily increase the amount of time people will spend on Tephilla, they will just davven faster to be able to say more in the same amount of time. Also, the hashivus of Torah vis a vis Tephilla is not a silly thing to hammer home. The Nefish HsChayim spent a considerable amount of ink on that subject.
@ NCB
Eg. the fact that Litvish yeshivas don’t have mikvahs b’shittah, the fact that litvish bochrim are clean-shaven b’shittah, the fact that litvish bochrim could go years without saying korbanos b’shittah, etc.
None of the above are examples of playing fast and loose with Halacha. Mikvos, beards, and saying korbonos are not mandatory m’icker hadin.
There are times when a pre-existing, widespread practice seems to contradict Halacha, and it can be shown that Rabbonim were aware of the practice, and didn’t object to it. THEN, based on the above evidence (widespread practice w/o objection) subsequent Rebonim may propose a solution. Such a consideration is itself very much a part of the Halachic due process. And even still the proposed solution may well be rejected by Rabbonim who are contemporaries of the Rav who proposed it or the Rabbonim of subsequent generations.
@ SH
“The Minchas Yitzchak also quotes the Rebbe regarding ships on Shabbos.”
This is in fact more relevant Thank you for living up to your name. I did not learn that teshuva. What does it say?
@ Syag
Thank you for clarifying
@ Yeshivishrockstar
“Username – You still have not answered my question re: the end of the Sukkah Sicha, where chassidim can be soimech on the tzaar of the Rebbe.”
I have alluded to this very point twice. This is the very part of the sicha Username omitted.
Notice that there was also no adequate responses to the the issues of:
-Doersh el HaMaitim. Making hishtadlus to communicate with the dead is assur (the quote from שבחי הארי” was mere misdirection).
-The Idea that it is somehow a greater fulfillment in the Mitzva of Kavod to fantasize that ones Rav is the Tzadik of the Tanya
-The Idea that it is somehow legitamite to play fast and loose with Halacha to justify minhagim.@ username
” I mean, I have a lot of friends in NY, and the Mishne Halachos never visited them, so you can imply that the Mishna Halachos viewed the Rebbe higher than he viewed my friends. Now it obviously didn’t make the Mishna Halachos the Rebbe’s Chossid, and it wouldn’t surprise me to know that he argued on the Rebbe. But it shows that he viewed the Rebbe as a Gadol (he did write Zatzal after the Rebbe’s name).”
It shows nothing of the sort. Nobody disputes that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe had a very wide reaching influence. This itself is reason enough for Gedolai Yisroel to visit / respond.
@ Syag
Things where very different before the war, and right after as well.
My guest this past Shabbos was telling me the the Rom Brothers (publishers of the Vilna Shas) where selling 80 Shassim per year. Worldwide.
It was very difficult for Benai Torah to get married. Rav Chaim Oizer used to stand up for crippled women. When asked about this he replied that they are probably married to Talmidei Chachamim.
Almost none of the women covered their hair.
There was a Rebbetzin of a famous Rosh Yeshiva who had a TV in their home.
We have a lot to be grateful for.
אל תדין את חבירך עד שתגיע למקומו
@ Syag
“Our gedolim and rabbeim are HOLY yidden, not because we think they are god, super human, or free of sin (something we would have NO way of knowing)”
Beautifully written.
And this was even true in the time of Navi’im. Shmuel HaNavi thought to anoint Dovid HaMelch’s older brother. Hashem told him that while people can see the eyes Hashem sees the heart. Later in the sefer we are made aware of his shortcomings by the war with the Plishtim when he became angry. Hindsight is 20/20.
@ Username
1) I want to reiterate that the “proof ” for initiating communication with a Tzadik who passed away from the Ari Z”l who learned Torah from RSHB”Y is a false move. The Ari Z”l did nothing to initiate that communication.
2) Surely you know what the last Lubavitcher Rebbe wrote in the sicha regarding not sleeping in a Sukkah Why are you changing it’s content? It is, after all, the svora in the sicha that Rso was asking about.
3) It is NOT a blanket Klal that you get to twist Halacha to justify a minchag. When such justifications are put forth (by leading Poskim) it still depends very much on how they are received by the other Poskim of that and subsequent doros. We can all go dig up justifications for just about anything you want in the vast SHU”T literature.
4) I”m still interested to hear in what way Chabad Chassidim respect their Rebbe more then other Yidden respect their Rabbonim. You said that their is a machlokes re: degree of required respect. Please elaborate.
@ Username
“1. People who really grasped the holiness of a Sukkah – and these were Tzaddikim who’s sleep was a different sleep (for example, Shivchei Ari says how the Arizal would learn deep Sisrei Torah while he slept), so for them there was no problem sleeping in a Sukkah, so they had the Chiyuv DeOraisa to sleep in a Sukkah.2. The regular folk, who didn’t know the Sisrei Torah behind the Sukkah. So they obviously didn’t feel bad about sleeping in a Sukkah, so they had the Chiyuv DeOriasa to sleep in the Sukkah.
It’s just that due to Yeridas Hadoros on one hand, and the spread of Chassidus on the other (so that even relatively simple people have some understanding of what holiness a Sukkah has), that there’s this guilty feeling.”
Did you ever learn the sicha inside? A guilty feeling due to [mis]understanding sisrai Torah has nothing to do with it.
1- 1-1/2 teaspoon of decent instant coffee, 1 teaspoon of sugar, (cocoa optional), add just enough hot water to stir and desove the above, add cold milk to the top.
PROTEIN – CALCIUM – ENERGY* – REFRESHING* I personally don’t use caffeinated coffee more then 2-3 times per week. Not interested in building up a tolerance / addiction to the stuff. Decaf works great on the other days.
@ SH
“Non Political,
Look it up, the early Chassidim davening way way after Zman Tefilah.”I was bringing a halachic justification that actually had traction with (some) subsequent Poskim. The custom you are referring to was:
1) roundly condemned and ceased.
2) not as widespread as you are implyingBut ok, if you want an early source for davvenning completely outside of zman see the Trumas HaDeshen re: Maariv. If you learn his teshuva you will note that how he deals with the issue is highly instructive.
@ username
Your examples of against Halacha are interesting
“There’s no debate that early Chassidim Davened late (after Zman Tefilla),
I’m sure you are aware of the cheter to finish after the zman if one started before (Shulchan Aruch HaRav based on a Tosafos).
“many other communities didn’t sleep in a Sukkah.”
Right, because either:
1) It was to cold (mitztayer)
2) The men were married and the wives didn’t go to the Sukah (k’ain t’diru)“Or, as I pointed out earlier, many Litvish Yeshivas do a Heicha Kedusha.”
They have Tephila b’tzibur and Kidusha. You don’t like R’ Yaacov’s pshat? It’s a lot less of a chiddush then the Shulchan Aruch HaRav I cited above. Furthermore, this case is off the subject. The Rabbonim instituted the practice you are objecting to, they are not coming to justify it expo facto.
I’m surprised you didn’t bring up eating inside the house on shmini sufake shvi’i in chutz l’aretz as an example.
So, here is a question for you. What do you think all of the above cases have in common? Hint: It isn’t that we get to twist Halacha into a pretzel to justify minhagim.
@ Yeshivishrockstar
“There are many things to criticize Chabad about, but tznius is an unfair one, especially in this dor.”
Wrong, because the issue is not the lack of tznius per se. It is the attitude towards that lack of tznius. Chabad’s policy towards tznius may be an acceptable for NCSY not for frum shuls and schools. We do not water down yiddishkeit to make it more user friendly. This approach has been tried by the conservative movement. They didn’t manage to conserve very much. That (I believe) is RSo’s point
@ username
“I’m not saying your falling short. I’m saying that there’s a debate over the Shiur of one’s respect to their Rov/Rebbe.”
1) No, you said Chabbad has more respect for their Rebbe.
2) But nevermind that. In what way do you have more respect for your Rebbe?@ Username
“And the Arizal would talk to the souls of those who passed away, and would learn Torah from them – implying a two way communication”
You left out the fact that the Ari z”l took no action to bring the souls to him
@ Username
“This is actually quite funny. I wrote “while Litvishers respect the Gedolim almost as much as Lubavich” and got attacked from both sides. One side (Syag) was quite upset that I dared hint that you respect your Gedolim less than we respect the Rebbe. At the same time, I was corrected from the other side, saying that there’s a fundamental difference between our view of the Rebbe and your view of your Gedolim.”
What’s funny? Both are true.
1) K-Cup pointed out that:
a) In the Litvishe world we do not have “Rebbes” as you understand them. And…
b) It is an accepted aspect of the halachic due process for competent poskim to disagree with their predecessors. I can excuse CSs superficial quote of the Rambam and Chinuch to support her position but you should know better. Even a cursory reading of the poskim on this matter would be sufficient for this. judging from your posts that is well within your abilities. I called K-Cup out on the tone of the post not the content.You say Syag’s was “upset”? You made a blanket statement that in Litvishe and Non Chabbad Chassidish circles the respect accorded Gedolim is less than in Chabbad. Honoring a Talmid Chochom in general and ones Rov in particular is a Mitzvah with halachos. Claiming that all of Klal Yisroel outside Chabad somehow falls short is completely out of line.
@ SH
“שמשה הוא ישראל וישראל הם משה, לומר לך שנשיא הדור הוא ככל הדור, כי הנשיא הוא הכל”
And this refers to the last Lubavitcher Rebbe because…?
“וכן בכל דור ודור יש ראשי אלפי ישראל”
You do notice the plural ראשי as in “heads of” not singular ראש “head of”
So how is this a support for the Nossi HaDor concept exactly?
@ SH
“I have more beef with Mishechistim than any non Lubavitcher here”
At least we now finally know where the beef is. Cha-ching.
@ K-Cup
“A Gadol is NOT AT ALL a “litvisher Rebbe”.
This is true (although not so sure about some of the Brisker chevra). Just realize that there are positives and negatives that go along with it.
The Litvish community is good at saying “This part of what Gadol X said is wrong” and just cuts it out, ignores it. It’s very common”
“Is wrong…cuts it out…ignores it!! I don’t know any competent talmidei chachamim who would take such a cavalier attitude towards the words of the Chofetz Chaim or the Chazon Ish.
@ Username
And while they don’t respect them just as much as we respect the Rebbe (as you can see from the past 23 pages), they get pretty close”
This statement is well beneath the standards of your otherwise articulate and well thought out posts.
I was gonna respond to chossid but RSo pretty much nailed it.
CS, I really would like some names. You know, of rabbanim who are considered gedolim by anyone outside your circle who agree with you guys. You said there where many, please share.
Also, still kinda scratching my head in wonderment regarding your contention that only the last Lubavitcher Rebbe did for all of Klal Yisroel whereis the the Gedolim only did for their respective kahilos.
@ CS
Me: “The point is that outside of your stream of Lubavitch no Rabbonim (including Chabbad ones) endorse what you guys do / believe. Also (and more importantly) , none of the Rebbonim in your circle are recognized as authoritative by any Torah Authority outside.”You: “Both false. Or shall I say the former is incorrect as the majority of respected lubavitcher Rabbonim, if not very many (haven’t done an actual poll) hold like me.
Names please
@ CS
Once again you have written that only the Rebbe exerted himself for all yidden whereis other Rabbonim are merely taking care of their own kahillos. You use this to prop up the nossi hador concept.
Username123321
I owe you an apology for the tone of my initial response to your posts.
@ CS
“By gedolim who are you referring to?”
“One thing I’ve learned on this forum is that the kinds of things the Rebbe said and did etc weren’t normal as in other Rebbe’s don’t speak or behave that way. And I guess that’s given me a deeper understanding of how a Nossi hador is different.”
You know very well who the Gedolim where / are. The point is that outside of your stream of Lubavitch no Rabbonim (including Chabbad ones) endorse what you guys do / believe. Also (and more importantly) , none of the Rebbonim in your circle are recognized as authoritative by any Torah Authority outside. By the standards you yourself purport to embrace this should give you pause.
@ CS
“However he told Rabbi Avtzon, if you see things differently, it’s your *chov* to go out and teach it!”
Interesting. I don’t see that as an endorsement. More like go do your thing and be vocal about it so that everyone knows what your views are.
CS,
If NO Gedolim outside of you circle agree with
1) your beliefs and practices (the ones under discussion)
2) you interpretation of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe’s teachings and classic sources to justify the above
Don’t you think that per your own standards it is time to re-evaluate?SH,
Why are you so vehemently against Rabbi Dr. Berger? If anything he was on your side. Did you even read his book? He was trying to rally RCA and Aguda Rabbonim to publicly support people like you and Username and your Rebbonim from the get go and prevent (or at least minimize) the current train wreck.
Would you be willing to share why when you left Chabbad you didn’t go over to the chevra SH is a part of?
@ username 12321
“Doesn’t this remind you of the whole Sukkah debate?
I’m with DY on this one, don’t really see the comparison. I have an itch to specify why they are not comparable, by it is an itch I won’t scratch.
SH what do you think? I noticed you where soliciting NCB into your smicha program. Tell me, is it a svara yeshara to compare the two cases?
@ Chossid
“you don’t ky what a Rebbe is”
Sure we do.
” you got to have real evidence and rayes. Not just relying on what you hear.”
Right. I have been saying this all along.
“And besides the point who are we to argue, in order for someone to have a shita against chabad you need to somewhat be equivalent to a Rebbe or a godel.”
There where plenty Gedolim who did just that
.
“All I see is that most of the world holds that the Rebbe was a tzadik and made miracles for everyone, and had ruach hakidesh.”Didn’t you just say before that one has to be a Gadol to have a daiya. I think you will be hard pressed to show evidence that MOST Gedolim hold of the above claim.
“So you need to have big plaitzes to say against his tzidkus.”
Who on this post (or previous posts) “said against his tzidkus”? There certainly where Gedolim with more than adequate sized plaitzes who did, and some posters may have cited their words.
You also asked if I learn the Ramchal’s chassidus or am only bringing him up for political reasons
1) As I pointed out earlier the Ramchal predates what you call chassidus. Are you asking me if I learn the Ramchal’s works on Chachmas HaEmes?
2) Did you notice my handle, I’m “non-political” 🙂@ chossid
“frum people should learn more penimius hatorah”
Right. That’s what the Ramchal said to. He was before the Besht, No? Surely you know that Rashbi already said so in the Zohar. That isn’t the point.
“(just focus more on Hashem himself”, understand what he is”
Your statement here IS the problem. The tragedy is that you don’t even realize it. The Ramchal says explicitly that nowhere in all of Chachmas HaEmes is that discussed. In fact that subject is completely out of bounds. The whole of Chachmas HaEmes (or “Pnimius HaTorah) speaks ONLY about what Hashem does (which includes His intent). I know you will say that this is a matter of dispute of “Rishonim K’Malachim” (The Baal HaTanya and Nefish HaChaim) Before you do, keep in mind that:
1) the Ramchal preceded them.
and
2) see the hakdama to Adir B’Marom (in the green set) where you can glean an insight into how the Ramchal was regarded by the Magid (Tamid Muvchak of the Besht and the Rebbe of the Baal HaTanya).
@ Sayag
“Me hoffinger- “Sinus Chinum’ destroyed one of the Beis HaMikdashes.
So, ‘misnagdisher Jews’ enjoy trying to stamp out light.”So are you conscious enough to see the inaneness of your juxtaposed statements.”
Inane? It makes perfect sense:
Misnagdisher Jews = Followers of Emmanuel Goldstein@ Chossid
“We are just coming from the day where we celebrate the amazing gift of chassidus. This is not a yom tov just for chabad it’s a yom tov for all yidden.”
No, because not all Yidden learn chassidus, nor do they need to.
“The Bal hatanya didn’t go to prison for learning chassidus with his chassidim, rather for spreading chassidus to the masses..
Ok. And as you well know other talmidai HaBesht and more recently the Satmar Rov Zt”l disagreed that one ought to do that. That the non-chassidic Rebonim disagreed goes without saying.
“The point why I’m saying all this is because, if you think chassidus is for chabad your mistaken it’s for klal Yisrael.”
So says Chabbad
“Chabad is not spreading chassidus to brianwash everyone that everyone should think how they are, rather to share this amazing hielikeh gift ( satmer Rebbe called the Tanya a heilikeh sefer…)”
Amazing. You shlepped the Satmar Rov into this as a support for your position. What does the fact that he held the Tanya to be a helig sefer have to do with anything??
“That’s why we hold Farbrengens for everyone to come to beachdus, and why we go on tahaluch – walk hours every sholoish regolim to different shuls to share chassidus with everyone”
Right. You do the above in complete disregard to the opinions of the Gedolai Yisroel and Rebbonim who object to it. But that’s ok because since they disagree with you they are obviously just trying “to stomp out the light of chassidus”. Since the last Lubavitcher Rebbe was the Moshe Rebbeinu of his (and subsequent) generations those who disagree are erev rav, meraglim, adas Korach. Snags, the whole bunch of ’em.
“So why not just try it out instead of being so against it, it won’t hurt, and btw anyone that really tried it never really regrets it.”
I won’t even say what that sounds like
@ Avi K
“who says that they are entitled”
The government says so.
Does the current system of entitlements create a disincentive to work because a higher income means losing programs and ending up with less disposable income? Yes it does. Economists call this the poverty trap.
Is there a moral / ethical imperative to do so anyways? Maybe so. It really depends on the specific circumstances of each individual’s situation. Self sufficiency is certainly very commendable but it is not the pinnacle in our hierarchy of values. There was a place where self sufficiency did occupy such a position it was called Sdom.
Does taking government entitlements transgress a prohibition for those who qualify. Nope.
@ akuperma
What you say has a degree of intuitive appeal. But you will need to set the bar a bit higher before asserting that many frum yidden are transgressing a prohibition. I personally discussed your very point with one of the top Poskim in the US and he disagreed with your definition. As a matter of fact, in that conversation I was the one advocating the same position you are.
So, here is my current take on the matter:
The government has stated anyone meeting a certain condition gets a set benefit = entitlement
As an aside, I’m sure you are aware that there is a whole cottage industry assisting wealthy families to spend down assets to qualify for medicaid upon entering nursing homes.
@ TT
You should be zocheh to the Light of Chassidus
שמים חושך לאור ואור לחושך…
Re: the whole Tanya on top of other seforim thing
SH called it a Hergesh. From a point of view of hergish it makes sense to me. But then he wrote in a subsequent post that it has to do with the heligness of the sefer which seems to be m’gala milta lmafreah that hergish doesn’t really mean hergish. But this is ok too. You guys who don’t get it just haven’t mastered doublethink.