Non Political

@ SH

“The Minchas Yitzchak also quotes the Rebbe regarding ships on Shabbos.”

This is in fact more relevant Thank you for living up to your name. I did not learn that teshuva. What does it say?

@ Yeshivishrockstar

“Username – You still have not answered my question re: the end of the Sukkah Sicha, where chassidim can be soimech on the tzaar of the Rebbe.”

I have alluded to this very point twice. This is the very part of the sicha Username omitted.

Notice that there was also no adequate responses to the the issues of:
-Doersh el HaMaitim. Making hishtadlus to communicate with the dead is assur (the quote from שבחי הארי” was mere misdirection).
-The Idea that it is somehow a greater fulfillment in the Mitzva of Kavod to fantasize that ones Rav is the Tzadik of the Tanya
-The Idea that it is somehow legitamite to play fast and loose with Halacha to justify minhagim.

@ Syag

Things where very different before the war, and right after as well.

My guest this past Shabbos was telling me the the Rom Brothers (publishers of the Vilna Shas) where selling 80 Shassim per year. Worldwide.

It was very difficult for Benai Torah to get married. Rav Chaim Oizer used to stand up for crippled women. When asked about this he replied that they are probably married to Talmidei Chachamim.

Almost none of the women covered their hair.

There was a Rebbetzin of a famous Rosh Yeshiva who had a TV in their home.

We have a lot to be grateful for.

אל תדין את חבירך עד שתגיע למקומו

@ Username

1) I want to reiterate that the “proof ” for initiating communication with a Tzadik who passed away from the Ari Z”l who learned Torah from RSHB”Y is a false move. The Ari Z”l did nothing to initiate that communication.

2) Surely you know what the last Lubavitcher Rebbe wrote in the sicha regarding not sleeping in a Sukkah Why are you changing it’s content? It is, after all, the svora in the sicha that Rso was asking about.

3) It is NOT a blanket Klal that you get to twist Halacha to justify a minchag. When such justifications are put forth (by leading Poskim) it still depends very much on how they are received by the other Poskim of that and subsequent doros. We can all go dig up justifications for just about anything you want in the vast SHU”T literature.

4) I”m still interested to hear in what way Chabad Chassidim respect their Rebbe more then other Yidden respect their Rabbonim. You said that their is a machlokes re: degree of required respect. Please elaborate.

1- 1-1/2 teaspoon of decent instant coffee, 1 teaspoon of sugar, (cocoa optional), add just enough hot water to stir and desove the above, add cold milk to the top.
PROTEIN – CALCIUM – ENERGY* – REFRESHING

* I personally don’t use caffeinated coffee more then 2-3 times per week. Not interested in building up a tolerance / addiction to the stuff. Decaf works great on the other days.

@ username

Your examples of against Halacha are interesting

“There’s no debate that early Chassidim Davened late (after Zman Tefilla),

I’m sure you are aware of the cheter to finish after the zman if one started before (Shulchan Aruch HaRav based on a Tosafos).

“many other communities didn’t sleep in a Sukkah.”

Right, because either:
1) It was to cold (mitztayer)
2) The men were married and the wives didn’t go to the Sukah (k’ain t’diru)

“Or, as I pointed out earlier, many Litvish Yeshivas do a Heicha Kedusha.”

They have Tephila b’tzibur and Kidusha. You don’t like R’ Yaacov’s pshat? It’s a lot less of a chiddush then the Shulchan Aruch HaRav I cited above. Furthermore, this case is off the subject. The Rabbonim instituted the practice you are objecting to, they are not coming to justify it expo facto.

I’m surprised you didn’t bring up eating inside the house on shmini sufake shvi’i in chutz l’aretz as an example.

So, here is a question for you. What do you think all of the above cases have in common? Hint: It isn’t that we get to twist Halacha into a pretzel to justify minhagim.

@ username

“I’m not saying your falling short. I’m saying that there’s a debate over the Shiur of one’s respect to their Rov/Rebbe.”

1) No, you said Chabbad has more respect for their Rebbe.
2) But nevermind that. In what way do you have more respect for your Rebbe?

@ Username

“This is actually quite funny. I wrote “while Litvishers respect the Gedolim almost as much as Lubavich” and got attacked from both sides. One side (Syag) was quite upset that I dared hint that you respect your Gedolim less than we respect the Rebbe. At the same time, I was corrected from the other side, saying that there’s a fundamental difference between our view of the Rebbe and your view of your Gedolim.”

What’s funny? Both are true.

1) K-Cup pointed out that:
a) In the Litvishe world we do not have “Rebbes” as you understand them. And…
b) It is an accepted aspect of the halachic due process for competent poskim to disagree with their predecessors. I can excuse CSs superficial quote of the Rambam and Chinuch to support her position but you should know better. Even a cursory reading of the poskim on this matter would be sufficient for this. judging from your posts that is well within your abilities. I called K-Cup out on the tone of the post not the content.

You say Syag’s was “upset”? You made a blanket statement that in Litvishe and Non Chabbad Chassidish circles the respect accorded Gedolim is less than in Chabbad. Honoring a Talmid Chochom in general and ones Rov in particular is a Mitzvah with halachos. Claiming that all of Klal Yisroel outside Chabad somehow falls short is completely out of line.

@SH

“וכן בכל דור ודור יש ראשי אלפי ישראל”

You do notice the plural ראשי as in “heads of” not singular ראש “head of”

So how is this a support for the Nossi HaDor concept exactly?

@ K-Cup

“A Gadol is NOT AT ALL a “litvisher Rebbe”.

This is true (although not so sure about some of the Brisker chevra). Just realize that there are positives and negatives that go along with it.

The Litvish community is good at saying “This part of what Gadol X said is wrong” and just cuts it out, ignores it. It’s very common”

“Is wrong…cuts it out…ignores it!! I don’t know any competent talmidei chachamim who would take such a cavalier attitude towards the words of the Chofetz Chaim or the Chazon Ish.

I was gonna respond to chossid but RSo pretty much nailed it.

CS, I really would like some names. You know, of rabbanim who are considered gedolim by anyone outside your circle who agree with you guys. You said there where many, please share.

Also, still kinda scratching my head in wonderment regarding your contention that only the last Lubavitcher Rebbe did for all of Klal Yisroel whereis the the Gedolim only did for their respective kahilos.

@ CS

Once again you have written that only the Rebbe exerted himself for all yidden whereis other Rabbonim are merely taking care of their own kahillos. You use this to prop up the nossi hador concept.

@ CS

“By gedolim who are you referring to?”

“One thing I’ve learned on this forum is that the kinds of things the Rebbe said and did etc weren’t normal as in other Rebbe’s don’t speak or behave that way. And I guess that’s given me a deeper understanding of how a Nossi hador is different.”

You know very well who the Gedolim where / are. The point is that outside of your stream of Lubavitch no Rabbonim (including Chabbad ones) endorse what you guys do / believe. Also (and more importantly) , none of the Rebbonim in your circle are recognized as authoritative by any Torah Authority outside. By the standards you yourself purport to embrace this should give you pause.

CS,

If NO Gedolim outside of you circle agree with
1) your beliefs and practices (the ones under discussion)
2) you interpretation of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe’s teachings and classic sources to justify the above
Don’t you think that per your own standards it is time to re-evaluate?

@tfaceburn

Would you be willing to share why when you left Chabbad you didn’t go over to the chevra SH is a part of?

@ Chossid

“you don’t ky what a Rebbe is”

Sure we do.

” you got to have real evidence and rayes. Not just relying on what you hear.”

Right. I have been saying this all along.

“And besides the point who are we to argue, in order for someone to have a shita against chabad you need to somewhat be equivalent to a Rebbe or a godel.”

There where plenty Gedolim who did just that
.
“All I see is that most of the world holds that the Rebbe was a tzadik and made miracles for everyone, and had ruach hakidesh.”

Didn’t you just say before that one has to be a Gadol to have a daiya. I think you will be hard pressed to show evidence that MOST Gedolim hold of the above claim.

“So you need to have big plaitzes to say against his tzidkus.”

Who on this post (or previous posts) “said against his tzidkus”? There certainly where Gedolim with more than adequate sized plaitzes who did, and some posters may have cited their words.

You also asked if I learn the Ramchal’s chassidus or am only bringing him up for political reasons

1) As I pointed out earlier the Ramchal predates what you call chassidus. Are you asking me if I learn the Ramchal’s works on Chachmas HaEmes?
2) Did you notice my handle, I’m “non-political” 🙂

@ Sayag

“Me hoffinger- “Sinus Chinum’ destroyed one of the Beis HaMikdashes.
So, ‘misnagdisher Jews’ enjoy trying to stamp out light.”

So are you conscious enough to see the inaneness of your juxtaposed statements.”

Inane? It makes perfect sense:
Misnagdisher Jews = Followers of Emmanuel Goldstein

@ Avi K

“who says that they are entitled”

The government says so.

Does the current system of entitlements create a disincentive to work because a higher income means losing programs and ending up with less disposable income? Yes it does. Economists call this the poverty trap.

Is there a moral / ethical imperative to do so anyways? Maybe so. It really depends on the specific circumstances of each individual’s situation. Self sufficiency is certainly very commendable but it is not the pinnacle in our hierarchy of values. There was a place where self sufficiency did occupy such a position it was called Sdom.

Does taking government entitlements transgress a prohibition for those who qualify. Nope.

@ TT

You should be zocheh to the Light of Chassidus

שמים חושך לאור ואור לחושך…

Re: the whole Tanya on top of other seforim thing

SH called it a Hergesh. From a point of view of hergish it makes sense to me. But then he wrote in a subsequent post that it has to do with the heligness of the sefer which seems to be m’gala milta lmafreah that hergish doesn’t really mean hergish. But this is ok too. You guys who don’t get it just haven’t mastered doublethink.

Welfare programs are an income based entitlement. There is plenty of gravy for our friends at the other end of the economic spectrum. The fact that this squeezes the middle class and creates a “poverty trap” is a problem for the boys and girls in the public policy / legislative sector (and the economists that advise them).

@ CS

“Now if every other Torah leader says his chiddushim are migale panim baTorah shelo kahalacha, then that clues his own followers in that something is wrong…And yah I know you’re (as in the collective you) are going to jump on that.”

On the contrary, I for one, think that is an excellent answer. Definitely in the right ballpark.

It’s just that you put in two qualifications that sorta leave an eye of the needle opening big enough for an elephant to fit through

Qualification 1: “EVERY other Torah leader”

1) Avi Weiss is still a card carrying member of the RCA
2) Even with Lev Tahor, its not like the Gedolim all got together and issued a public joint statement regarding them. Worse then that, there was a frum publication with a Rabbinical Advisory Board that ran an article supporting them.

Qualification 2:
“there’s also shivim panim laTorah and there’s a difference between going against the letter or spirit of Torah (such as women reading from the Torah etc) and something that is merely an unconventional or unusual position to take.

Next

“Another indicator is that when borderline chiddushim lead to outright actions against Torah, as a natural progression of the whole, (as we have seen with the OO and now Lev Tahor in contemporary times) it shows that the questionable original chiddushim were wrong.

This would not work as an indicator because the people in the group won’t see it as being against the Torah. That is also the problem with the 2nd qualification above.

I would also suggest that it is appropriate to ask how the Gedolim regard the leader and his followers. I think one would be hard pressed to find Gedolim who would give the above individuals the time of day.

@ CS

“Here you find many regular yidden whose “hisnagdus” is mostly due to ignorance (of classic sources on moshiach and Geula, of the Halachos on how to treat a Rebbe etc etc) and most of them are not even misnagdim in any way at all, just fellow frum yidden.”

That’s quite a condescending statement. I find it personally offensive and I’m sure other posters on this thread do as well.

You should know that Muslims have a similar position. One of their proofs for Islam is that anyone who knows Arabic and can therefore read and understand the Koran will see clearly that it is a work of prophecy. Anyone who does not accept it as such is either a) doesn’t understand it or b) is a willing infidel.

I’m NOT chv”sh comparing you to a muslim. I AM comparing your statement and their “proof”.

@ NCB

“but why, of all places, did you decide to come in at this point and defend that alleged statemen

I wasn’t defended that statement chv”sh. The statement as a whole is indefensible because:

1) It claims the Rebbe is Moshiach
2) It addresses a whole segment of Yidden with a derogatory name

I was merely providing the context wherein the part of the statement which appears to be a glaringly irreconcilable stira can be made to shtim.

@ DY

“That’s not putting it into context, that’s distorting it beyond recognition.”

I prefer to look at it as a slight nip tuck, with professionally applied make up.

@SH

“I assume you know that so why are you asking the question”

It wasn’t a question

@ CS

“Gerrer Rebbe, Baba Sali and reb zusia for example weren’t involved with writing halacha (as far as I know) and were still seen as tzaddikim..This shows that the criterion here is not a specific list – just he is known and trusted to Torah true Jews by his behaviour etc.

This is true. Another example would be the Ramchal, we don’t have Halachic works from him. One could even point out that there was a strong opposition to him by other leading sages during his lifetime (a cherem on certain works even).

You are right that the list of 3 criteria wasn’t meant as a check list per se, it’s not that you need “all of the above” and davka these 3. You asked me what I would consider objective criteria for determining who is a Gadol and I gave 3 examples. However what they have in common is not “he is known and trusted to Torah true Jews by his behaviour etc”. Rather the common denominator is the seriousness with which other Rabbonim take his Torah.

Next point

“Also yes Torah true adherents add value. We see that ain melech blo am, and the Kings of today are the Rabbonim and Torah leaders. If someone tells you so and so is a Rebbe and he has two chassidim, you will think less of him than a Rebbe who has a thousand, because the fact that a thousand Torah true yidden have chosen him to inspire and guide their Avodas Hashem gives him more credence.”

The ARI HaKadosh, The RMCH”L, the GR”A and the BSH”T had a small number of direct Talmidim. No one considers them less of a Rebbe because of this.

Next Point

“And lastly by learning their Torah we see what kind of person or Torah great they were. Like the Or Hachaim for example”

Not necessarily. The learner has to be competent to evaluate.

@ Random3X

“There have been many known tzaddikim who did not meet all of those criteria”

I didn’t say one needed to meet ALL of the criteria