Non Political

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  • in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1631988
    Non Political
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    @ TT

    You should be zocheh to the Light of Chassidus

    שמים חושך לאור ואור לחושך…

    Re: the whole Tanya on top of other seforim thing

    SH called it a Hergesh. From a point of view of hergish it makes sense to me. But then he wrote in a subsequent post that it has to do with the heligness of the sefer which seems to be m’gala milta lmafreah that hergish doesn’t really mean hergish. But this is ok too. You guys who don’t get it just haven’t mastered doublethink.

    in reply to: Welfare #1631855
    Non Political
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    @ Akuperma

    “There is the halachic issue involving taking charity from goyim.”

    You do understand the distinction between charity and an entitlement, No?

    in reply to: Welfare #1631781
    Non Political
    Participant

    Welfare programs are an income based entitlement. There is plenty of gravy for our friends at the other end of the economic spectrum. The fact that this squeezes the middle class and creates a “poverty trap” is a problem for the boys and girls in the public policy / legislative sector (and the economists that advise them).

    in reply to: Lev Tahor and other frum cults- and don’t misunderstand me #1629178
    Non Political
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    @ Gaon

    “The very comparison is just absurd…Chabad, whether you agree or not, is based on a Mesorah from the Ba’al haTanya”

    Maybe the Chabbad that SH is referring to. But it seems to me that the chabbad (or lack thereof) of TamimTihiyu has more in common with neo christianity. The fact that it claims a basis in Mesorah / Chassidus doesn’t make it so any more the Helbrans making the same claim. Would you also claim that NK is based on Mesorah from the Satmar Rebbe? Shall Gehazi claim Mesorah from Elisha and Yashka Mesorah from Shimon HaPikuli?

    in reply to: Lev Tahor and other frum cults- and don’t misunderstand me #1628785
    Non Political
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    @ CS

    “Now if every other Torah leader says his chiddushim are migale panim baTorah shelo kahalacha, then that clues his own followers in that something is wrong…And yah I know you’re (as in the collective you) are going to jump on that.”

    On the contrary, I for one, think that is an excellent answer. Definitely in the right ballpark.

    It’s just that you put in two qualifications that sorta leave an eye of the needle opening big enough for an elephant to fit through

    Qualification 1: “EVERY other Torah leader”

    1) Avi Weiss is still a card carrying member of the RCA
    2) Even with Lev Tahor, its not like the Gedolim all got together and issued a public joint statement regarding them. Worse then that, there was a frum publication with a Rabbinical Advisory Board that ran an article supporting them.

    Qualification 2:
    “there’s also shivim panim laTorah and there’s a difference between going against the letter or spirit of Torah (such as women reading from the Torah etc) and something that is merely an unconventional or unusual position to take.

    Next

    “Another indicator is that when borderline chiddushim lead to outright actions against Torah, as a natural progression of the whole, (as we have seen with the OO and now Lev Tahor in contemporary times) it shows that the questionable original chiddushim were wrong.

    This would not work as an indicator because the people in the group won’t see it as being against the Torah. That is also the problem with the 2nd qualification above.

    I would also suggest that it is appropriate to ask how the Gedolim regard the leader and his followers. I think one would be hard pressed to find Gedolim who would give the above individuals the time of day.

    in reply to: Lev Tahor and other frum cults- and don’t misunderstand me #1628459
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ SL

    “I think the thread had potential for actual discussion…”

    +1

    “This, unfortunately destroys the credibility of the valid points that are presented and the discussion that could have been”

    It still can be. Lets just (try) to tune out the static

    This could get interesting…

    So far CS brought a Chinuch and a Rambam.

    Then

    @ Millhouse
    “The answer is that the shita is correct, but they picked the wrong rebbe. That’s all. How should they have known he was the wrong rebbe? Not from any one incident, but over time they could have realized that something is very wrong.”

    @ CS “Also as Torah yidden we are expected to follow our Rebbe without question, but the same Torah mandates the Rebbe to have sources for his Torah and not to make up whatever he wishes.”

    Please unpack that a little more. How could they have realized that something is very wrong? Doesn’t following the Rebbe without question include emuna that he has sources for his Torah and isn’t making things up?

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1627110
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ CS

    “Here you find many regular yidden whose “hisnagdus” is mostly due to ignorance (of classic sources on moshiach and Geula, of the Halachos on how to treat a Rebbe etc etc) and most of them are not even misnagdim in any way at all, just fellow frum yidden.”

    That’s quite a condescending statement. I find it personally offensive and I’m sure other posters on this thread do as well.

    You should know that Muslims have a similar position. One of their proofs for Islam is that anyone who knows Arabic and can therefore read and understand the Koran will see clearly that it is a work of prophecy. Anyone who does not accept it as such is either a) doesn’t understand it or b) is a willing infidel.

    I’m NOT chv”sh comparing you to a muslim. I AM comparing your statement and their “proof”.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1626216
    Non Political
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    @ CS

    “Like we said it’s not necessarily a list of must have but common pointers we see by those Torah leaders / tzaddikim”

    I wrote that you are right that the list of 3 criteria wasn’t meant as a check list in that you need “all of the above” and davka these 3. !!However!! what they have in common is –

    >>> they are an objective expressions of the seriousness with which other Rabbonim take his Torah. <<<

    That common denominator is not negotiable

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1626054
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ NCB

    “but why, of all places, did you decide to come in at this point and defend that alleged statemen

    I wasn’t defended that statement chv”sh. The statement as a whole is indefensible because:

    1) It claims the Rebbe is Moshiach
    2) It addresses a whole segment of Yidden with a derogatory name

    I was merely providing the context wherein the part of the statement which appears to be a glaringly irreconcilable stira can be made to shtim.

    @ DY

    “That’s not putting it into context, that’s distorting it beyond recognition.”

    I prefer to look at it as a slight nip tuck, with professionally applied make up.


    @SH

    “I assume you know that so why are you asking the question”

    It wasn’t a question

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1625823
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ SH

    “To make up a possible context to justify it is ludicrous”

    Do you mean ludicrous because no context could possibly exist under which such a statement would be true?

    How about this:

    The Shliach has 2 guests.

    Guy 1 – Is Frei (not careful with kashrus, relationships with other gender, ect) but not mechalel Shabbos publicly and not an oved Avoda Zora

    Guy 2 – Holds there isn’t going to be ANY Moshiach.

    During the course of the meal Guy 2 says: Yo, there ain’t gonna be no Moshiach because “Its a like a bferush genara man, ain Moshiach l’Yisroel! And if there was a Moshiach, you think it would be your Rebbe?! Gee, you lubabs are really nuts. Hey, is this cholent mehadrin cause I only eat mehadrin man.

    The shliach is taken aback. Then, deciding that with some people you gotta be a bit blunt, responds. Your asking me about mehadrin?! If you don’t believe in Moshiach that guy over there (nods in direction of Guy 1) is better off then you are?! And if I’m such a apikoros why are you eating my cholent in the first place?

    Maybe, you meant ludicrous because you deem such a scenario as highly unlikely and you hold ludicrous is a synonymous for not likely.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1625723
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ CS

    “Gerrer Rebbe, Baba Sali and reb zusia for example weren’t involved with writing halacha (as far as I know) and were still seen as tzaddikim..This shows that the criterion here is not a specific list – just he is known and trusted to Torah true Jews by his behaviour etc.

    This is true. Another example would be the Ramchal, we don’t have Halachic works from him. One could even point out that there was a strong opposition to him by other leading sages during his lifetime (a cherem on certain works even).

    You are right that the list of 3 criteria wasn’t meant as a check list per se, it’s not that you need “all of the above” and davka these 3. You asked me what I would consider objective criteria for determining who is a Gadol and I gave 3 examples. However what they have in common is not “he is known and trusted to Torah true Jews by his behaviour etc”. Rather the common denominator is the seriousness with which other Rabbonim take his Torah.

    Next point

    “Also yes Torah true adherents add value. We see that ain melech blo am, and the Kings of today are the Rabbonim and Torah leaders. If someone tells you so and so is a Rebbe and he has two chassidim, you will think less of him than a Rebbe who has a thousand, because the fact that a thousand Torah true yidden have chosen him to inspire and guide their Avodas Hashem gives him more credence.”

    The ARI HaKadosh, The RMCH”L, the GR”A and the BSH”T had a small number of direct Talmidim. No one considers them less of a Rebbe because of this.

    Next Point

    “And lastly by learning their Torah we see what kind of person or Torah great they were. Like the Or Hachaim for example”

    Not necessarily. The learner has to be competent to evaluate.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1625647
    Non Political
    Participant

    Love and hate are not binary. There is no inherent contradiction in having both feelings towards the same person. I know that sounds counterintuitive and I myself would not have thought so had I not heard Rabbi David Gottlieb develops this point exquisitely in one of his lectures.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1625656
    Non Political
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    @ Random3X

    “There have been many known tzaddikim who did not meet all of those criteria”

    I didn’t say one needed to meet ALL of the criteria

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1624928
    Non Political
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    @ CS

    You: Np: apparently you are unaware that the Frierdiker Rebbe was part of that effort to rebuild Torah in America and he supported all Torah institutions and launched programs for even frum kids…

    I am well aware that Chabbad had a Yeshiva, Rav Gustman had a position there. What does that have to do with my post?

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1624927
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ CS
    “how bout you tell me what the criteria are for establishing who are the tzadikim?”

    For starters here are some things to look for:
    1) He is regarded as a Gadol b’Torah by the Gedolim already established as such. This means that they give serious weight to his opinion in their own Halachic rulings*.
    2) His Torah is studied widely in Yeshivos and Kollelim
    3) Community Rebbeim (of various communities) turn to this person with there own shailos

    As a postscript to point 1, I would point out that things like addressing him with honorary titles, speaking his praises, attending his levaya, being a Rosh Yeshiva in his yeshiva, ect. doesn’t cut it.

    I also want to stress that the subject was never “establishing who the Tzadikim are. The discussion was who is a Gadol B’Yisroel. Nevertheless we can be certain that such a person is a Tzadik and if someone would wish to claim otherwise the burden to bring compelling evidence would be on them to substantiate their claim.

    One more thing. The above is useful for determining who is a Gadol. As far as determining who is “THE Gadol” even Shmuel HaNavi couldn’t do that without prophecy.

    in reply to: Summarize Lubavitch “philosophy” #1624771
    Non Political
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    @ The Frumguy

    “I would venture to say that your number 1 is quite universal. All frum Jews believe in that. It’s not necessarily a Lubavitch idea.”

    The words are universal. The way the concept is developed was/is subject to great controversy.

    This matter was discussed in the 1st of the 3 post series.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1624702
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ CS

    “Lubavitch was the only Torah outreach movement. (Not anymore today bh)”

    I have a different perspective on this point.

    After the war most of the Gedolim in E”Y and America where focusing on rebuilding Yeshivos and Beis Yaacovs. This is very much in line with the priorities expressed by ריב”ז when he famously asked for Yavneh and it’s scholars. This was a two pronged project. (1) The establishment of major Torah centers and (2) the establishment of day schools and later kollelim in many “out of town” communities. Their efforts where blessed with tremendous success and today we are all the beneficiaries of their foresight and mesiras nefesh.
    I think you would be hard pressed to demonstrate that the last Lubavitcher Rebbes shlichus initiative had a greater overall impact on Klal Yisroel.

    But I digress. I will be happy to address the other question shortly.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1624257
    Non Political
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    @ TT

    “All I said was that anyone who doesn’t ACKNOWLEDGE who the Rebbe is will be sorry when it’s too late”

    How do you propose someone outside Chabbad should come to do that?

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1624255
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ CS

    “Np by your reasoning, Eliyahu hanavi and har hacarmel would have never happened. We have a clear mitzva of listening to our chachamim which was applied then (source Rambam Sefer hamitzvos:) If someone is known to you to be a tzadik, then you follow everything he says, EVEN IF he tells you to temporarily stop doing a mitzvah.”

    Not sure what you mean. My point was what criteria we use for determining who is a Tzadik. Nothing in my post contradicts that one follows the hora’ah shah of an established leader of the generation.

    Next

    Me: “The determination is not made based on the number of adherents. For example, the Karaites outnumbered traditional Yidden in many communities for a not insignificant period of time. The Rambam controversy was resolved in large part due to the Rambans involvement and R’ Yona’s retraction. It is true that ultimately there is historical closure but it often takes multiple generations to happen and is therefore not a useful criteria.”

    You: Note that I wrote Torah true yidden. Your rebuttal about the karaim is like me looking to the reform or even other religions.

    You missed my point. To use your example. Even though there are many reform jews the number doesn’t matter because they are not Torah True Yidden. Torah true Yidden follow the Torah as it is transmitted by the Chochmai HaDor. Now, WHO the chochmai hador are cannot be determined based on how many adherents they have. My example for this was the Karites who had lots of adherents for quite a while.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1623837
    Non Political
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    @ TT

    “And note that you dont either disagree with anything I’ve said”

    Do you not read English?

    SH said: HaMayonois doesn’t mean making people Lubavitch, it means spreading the teachings of Chassidus to the general public, and that is not limited to Chassidus Chabad, other Chassidus also perfectly fits the bill, whether it be Noam Elimelech, Kedushas Levi or Sfas Emas, doesn’t make a difference.

    CS said: And youre upset I call him Rav Shach? Guess what? If he was Joe Shmoe he wouldn’t warrant a mention of any type at the Rebbe’s farbrengen. It was precisely because he was a Torah leader that the Rebbe cared to strongly disagree with his words.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1623804
    Non Political
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    @ CS

    Me: “Step 1 – None of those abilities are unique to a Tzadik (meaning that even non-tzadikim can have them)
    Step 2 – Therefore having these abilities does not establish one who possesses them as a Tzadik.”

    You: “I am not sure about this – I have seen inside shaar hayichud vihoemuna where the Alter Rebbe states that Hashem increases emuna in this world by revealing His abilities through the tzadikim and the miracles they do. This would imply that only tzaddikim do miracles but I’m open to hearing other sources that show otherwise, if you have. In a similar vein, tzadik gozer vHKBH mekayem etc. Yes every Jew has the ability to rise above nature by adhering to Torah and mitzvos, but to promise and come through on miracles, and to decree them with the certainty that Hashem will fulfill seems to be something unique to tzaddikim.”

    You know that it is not unique to Tzaddikim from the Parsha in Chumash re: Navi Sheker. The point is that EVEN a navi sheker can affect miracles and know hidden things. One does not have to intentionally seek to use the s”a, one can be misled (and himself not even realize it). Now, I’m NOT saying that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe was misled in this way. What I am saying is that since such abilities are not unique to Tzadikim they cannot be used as a criteria.

    The above quote from the first Lubavitcher Rebbe does not contradict this at all. The fact that Hashem increases emuna in this world by revealing His abilities through the tzadikim and the miracles they do has nothing to do with what criteria ought to be used for accepting them as Tzadikim in the first place.

    Next

    Me: “What does exist is that numerous Gedolim who were contemporaries of the Lubavitcher Rebbe did hold him in very high esteem and regarded him as a Gadol B’Yisroel. This is a matter of record and is undisputable. You have cited many examples of this in previous threads. So, if your proposition would have been “The Lubavitcher Rebbe was a Gadol B’Yisroel” I would agree that the evidence you cited in previous threads is relevant to accepting THAT proposition. But that is not what you are proposing.”

    You: “Ironically that’s what I was meaning to propose, I just used a more lubavitch term which truly means more what you say.”

    Given you posts in this (and the last 2 threads) don’t believe that you are proposing to regard the Last Lubavitcher Rebbe as merely a peer of the other Gedolim of his generation. I think what you actually mean is this
    1) The last Lubavitcher Rebbe was a Gadol B’Yisroel (as per the above criteria), and
    2) Hashem increases emuna in this world by revealing His abilities through the tzadikim and the miracles they do
    3) Given point 1 and 2 above (IN THAT ORDER) the miracles and accomplishments of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe where indicative of unique greatness

    You: My point was to explain why I hold of my Rebbe as I do…

    It’s true that we shouldn’t determine what is right and wrong based on winning debates and skilled rhetoric. However, the standard one proposes to adapt should be objectively reliable and applied consistently. Having the matter be a personal decision doesn’t change that.

    You: In fact that’s precisely how we’ve determined who’s who in the Torah world, who’s a tzadik etc throughout all the generations: generally by two categories:
    1) how many Torah yidden accept their teachings and follow them long term (the Rambam was originally highly controversial but is now universally accepted and acclaimed as a tzadik)

    The determination is not made based on the number of adherents. For example, the Karaites outnumbered traditional Yidden in many communities for a not insignificant period of time. The Rambam controversy was resolved in large part due to the Rambans involvement and R’ Yona’s retraction. It is true that ultimately there is historical closure but it often takes multiple generations to happen and is therefore not a useful criteria.

    You: 2) other tzaddikim who can see soul levels testifying about the status of said individual.

    Since we regular people have no way of knowing who can actually do this I don’t see how this can be a criteria.

    You: But it is done because it resonates with the neshama…

    Everyone over the age of 15 has had experiences with things resonating with them and later realizing that they were objectively 100% wrong. So that criteria is not reliable either.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1623675
    Non Political
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    @ IITFT

    Me: “numerous Gedolim who were contemporaries of the Lubavitcher Rebbe did hold him in very high esteem and regarded him as a Gadol B’Yisroel.”

    You: “And also Delusional”

    Why is that relevant? Rav Yaakov Emden held Rav Yonasan to be a follower of Sht”z. The Rambams seforim were burned in the streets by leading Rabbis as works of heresy. The fact that numerous Gedolim who were contemporaries of the Lubavitcher Rebbe held him in very high esteem and regarded him as a Gadol B’Yisroel is a matter of historical record.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1623046
    Non Political
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    @ Out Of Towner

    I was thinking of the Chazal he was referring to. Thank you for providing the nimshal.

    @ SH

    “Goes to show that you’re not actually so familiar with Lubavitch:)
    I never heard this person being nicknamed “Shofech Domim” but I got the inference right away”

    The fact that you got the inference right away reflects very poorly on the company you keep, far worse than TTs post in fact.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1623026
    Non Political
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    @ TT

    That was pretty much neo christianity.

    Nebech

    Oh, and the 19th bracho was enacted against minim ie. the early christians

    Go figure

    Maybe the shofech damim he was referring to is a reference is to Titus, who is mentioned in the same gemara as being judged in gehenom ldorei dorot along with oto haish (if you look at the uncensored version)

    Guess every group has there “special cases”. I was a bit surprised by CS’s rather mild response, Ahavas Yisroel is the least of his problems.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1621617
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ CS

    You: “How do you know if someone is not normal?” Has reached a spiritual height that is out of your league but precisely because of that can help you in ways the “regular” Rabbanim etc can’t? When you see evidence that…they can sense and see things normal people can’t. They can read thoughts and see straight into ones soul. That’s what u mean by that proof.meaning its proof that the Rebbe is beyond our league.”

    Me: “No, even if all of the above would be 100% verifiably true this would prove nothing at all. This is very important. In fact Rav Yaacov Hillel wrote “Faith and Folly” precisely to combat this misconception (among others). He wrote it at the behest of just about all the gedolim Sefardi, Litvish, Chassidish (see haskamos to his sefer).”

    You: I don’t understand your point here. Please elaborate.

    I’ll be glad to

    In a nutshell. You are advancing the following proposition: The Lubavitcher Rebbe (subject) is Unique in his, and subsequent generation in that the following is true specifically and exclusively regarding him
    a) He is the Nassi HaDor (predicate)
    b) He is the Moshe Rebbeinu of the Generation (predicate)
    c) He is a Tzadik as per the Tanya (predicate)

    you cite 2 categories of positive evidence as grounds for accepting the above proposition

    1) The types of accomplishments you listed above.
    a)Has reached a spiritual height that is out of your league but precisely because of that can help you in ways the “regular” Rabbanim etc can’t
    b) Can sense and see things normal people can’t.
    c) Can read thoughts and see straight into ones soul.

    2) That he was regarded as such by many contemporary Gedolim.

    My point is that:

    The 1st category of evidence is not evidence because even if was 100% verified and accepted as fact it would not be relevant to accepting your proposition. It’s not relevant because:

    Step 1 – None of those abilities are unique to a Tzadik (meaning that even non-tzadikim can have them)
    Step 2 – Therefore having these abilities does not establish one who possesses them as a Tzadik.

    The 2nd category of evidence would in fact be very relevant to accepting your proposition if it in fact existed. But it doesn’t. What does exist is that numerous Gedolim who were contemporaries of the Lubavitcher Rebbe did hold him in very high esteem and regarded him as a Gadol B’Yisroel. This is a matter of record and is undisputable. You have cited many examples of this in previous threads. So, if your proposition would have been “The Lubavitcher Rebbe was a Gadol B’Yisroel” I would agree that the evidence you cited in previous threads is relevant to accepting THAT proposition. But that is not what you are proposing.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1621057
    Non Political
    Participant

    @NCB

    “Chabadshlucha seems to have created an account on an obviously predominantly Litvish forum for the express purposes of propagandizing Chabad and arguing against all other shittas.”

    I’m not convinced of this. Why do we have to assume negative intent? Judging by her posts on other types of threads she seems sincere. She may also be expressing what she learned in order to hear the responses. Maybe she herself struggles with these issues and it is through such a forum that she can hear other points of view. She is who many of us would be if raised / educated in the way that she was.

    “Do you think we would lauded for good intentions if any of us did this on a Chabad site?”

    Maybe not, but we are not them.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1621052
    Non Political
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    @SL

    “I just hope that people like Seckel hayashar are silently cringing”

    I don’t think they’re cringing. I think they”ll say Shmuel b’doro…Yiftach b’doro…ect.

    .

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1621011
    Non Political
    Participant

    “OK I can see where you base your assumption non political as I have heavily emphasised the miracles and ruach hakodesh aspect to show that the Rebbe was not a regular person/ Rav (or tzadik as per non lubavitch perlance). But I was writing that assuming we shared a certain common knowledge or ground which I now see is lacking. So I’ll back up.”

    Ok, I’m game let’s hear

    “The Rebbe from his childhood on, was not typical…”

    1) How do you know
    2) How was he less typical then say the Gaon of Vilna
    3) Even if he really was super duper not typical why is that relevant? Shabbsai Tzvi wasn’t typical either. In fact not only his knowledge of nigla was impressive but even more so his knowledge of nistar. The way he prayed was said to be especially impressive.

    “By the time he arrived in America in 1940, and the Frierdiker Rebbe sent chassidim to greet him at the port here was where he was holding, by the Frierdiker Rebbes description: “My son in law knows the entire shas with Tosfos, Rosh and Ran as well as all printed chassidishe seforim.”

    This would be a accolade equally applicable to many of the Gedolim of pre war Europe until (and including) our current day.

    “The Rebbes tremendous knowledge of Torah is evident by his Farbrengens, where he would sit for hours on end, quoting from kol HaTorah Jul by heart with no notes, a fact that greatly impressed Rabbi JB Soloveitchik zatzal.”

    Same as above

    “The chassidim got to know the Rebbe and see how he was careful with every detail in halacha as would of course be expected from such a tremendous gaon.”

    Same as above

    “Not just chassidim, people from all walks who met the Rebbe beforehand knew he was a very special young man and a tremendous gaon.”

    Same as above

    That all went without saying. Within lubavitch, it is impressive to be a tremendous gaon, but we’re not overly impressed if it’s something the average person could do, with the time and investment put into it. We have plenty of very learned people within lubavitch, Geonim (by today’s standard for sure) etc, not like the Rebbe of course, that’s highly unusual”

    Still waiting for evidence of the highly unusual part

    “We have tens of people like this within lubavitch. But we are not overly impressed with them, although we respect them greatly, because we know they are still regular people like me and you, just much farther along avoda wise”

    I don’t agree. I think that If someone is a Talmid Chochom and “farther along avoda wise” that is the very reason to be impressed. The greater they are in Torah and the “farther they are in Avodah” the more impressive they are.

    “And this is the respect I see paid by other chassidim and litvaks to their own Roshei Yeshivos Rabbanim Rebbe’s etc for the most part.”

    In other words all the Gedolim are in the same category as the tens of Talmidei Chachamim in Lubavich who “we respect but are not overly impressed with”. Got it

    “How do you know if someone is not normal?”

    I don’t know if we can drill it down precisely. Those darn shrinks keep changing the definition. The DSM-5 standard has drawn some heavy criticism. But if we avoid the grey areas and stay within commonly accepted usage of the concept we should be ok. Let’s see how it goes 🙂

    “Has reached a spiritual height that is out of your league but precisely because of that can help you in ways the “regular” Rabbanim etc can’t? When you see evidence that…they can sense and see things normal people can’t. They can read thoughts and see straight into ones soul. That’s what u mean by that proof.meaning its proof that the Rebbe is beyond our league.”

    No, even if all of the above would be 100% verifiably true this would prove nothing at all. This is very important. In fact Rav Yaacov Hillel wrote “Faith and Folly” precisely to combat this misconception (among others). He wrote it at the behest of just about all the gedolim Sefardi, Litvish, Chassidish (see haskamos to his sefer).

    “If I would tell you “Anochi omed bein Hashem uveineichem” and “I will provide all your Gashmius needs if you listen to My commands,” you would think I’m a narcissistic lunatic or apikorus. However knowing who Moshe Rabbeinu was, no one of course describes him that way. In fact, he wasn’t even boasting about himself, as the Torah testifies that he was the humblest of all time..with Moshe, it was simply Shechina midaberes mitoch grono shel Moshe, and the I and Me were in fact referring to Hashem and not Moshe as an individual.”

    Right, we “know who Moshe Rabbeinu was” in this regard because the entire nation stood on Har Sinai and heard Hashem speak to Moshe Rabbeinu. That was a direct national experience, quite possibly the strongest category of evidence there is.

    “Get my point?”

    Unfortunately, I do.

    “Basically, when your talking of someone acknowledged by many many Torah leaders, Rabbanim etc. as a Nassi Byisrael or similar terms”

    No such thing. We have addressed that claim in 2 previous threads, no reason to rehash it here.

    CS, I want to reiterate that nothing in my post is meant as an attack on you personally. I continue to have the utmost respect for you and appreciate your sincere effort in clarifying your position.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620748
    Non Political
    Participant

    It comes down to this:

    Once a person has chosen to believe that a certain person is a Tzadik who has no Yetzer HaRah and any of his statements are a direct expression of Divine Will no further discussion (on any matter pertaining to the Tzadik or his teachings) is possible. The strength of such a belief is precisely in the fact that no positive evidence is presented for it and therefore there is nothing to refute. Instead the focus is on wonderous and miraculous stories about the Tzadik. Combine with a personal investment of time and resources and strong social proof and you have the makings of very strong faith which becomes self reinforcing. Make no mistake about it, this formula works.

    in reply to: Women wearing tzitzis #1617640
    Non Political
    Participant

    “if the community generally doesn’t do something, but it is permitted al pi halacha, that won’t stop me from doing it privately.”

    You seem to be under the impression that an individual is not halachically bound by community custom and can privately disregard it if he / she sees fit. This is generally false. It is true in the the following scenarios:

    1) When a custom varies from community to community AND the individual is a visitor who is privately acting in accordance with the custom of their home community (or a talmid keeping the practice of his rebbe).

    2) When a custom is a boorish error

    Neither of the above apply to our case since there are no communities where women had a custom to wear tzitzis and no Rabbonim who instructed that they ought to adopt such a practice. In fact the opposite is true, Rabbonim have objected to them doing so.

    Also, I am aware that the Rema holds that if a woman puts on tzitzis she would make a bracha. This is in line with The Rema’s psak (and Ashkenazik custom) that women make a bracha on time bound mitzvot as opposed to the Shulchan Aruch’s psak that they do not. This has no bearing on the fact that women did not in practice wear tzitzis, a practice which the Rema considered a show of arrogance. You should also be aware that the Levush holds (based on Targum Yerushami) that a woman who wears tzitsis transgresses the Torah prohibition of wearing male garments.

    “I am pretty much done with this topic, so if you rebut anything here, I will let you have the last word.”

    Ok, will do

    in reply to: Women wearing tzitzis #1615840
    Non Political
    Participant

    @StuartW

    “There are plenty of circumstances under which women wearing tsitsis is permitted. I am not talking about Women of the Wall.”

    What would those circumstances be exactly??

    “I doubt R Moshe used the exact verbiage you presented. He may have been referring to Women of the Wall types who put on a rebellious show.”

    Rebellion means – the act or process of resisting authority, control, or convention. Wearing tzitzis by women certainly runs contrary to past and present convention and halachic authority. Are you aware of of any top tier poskim who sanctioned this practice? Any community where this practice was the accepted custom?

    “He didn’t know of all the women in the world who wear tsitsis in halachically acceptable ways with hearts consumed with a isas hashem.”

    All the heartfelt sincerity in the world wouldn’t make this practice acceptable

    “My mission here is not to appear smart or to argue. I just would like people to err on the side of kaf z’chus”

    Judging lkaf zchus means acknowledging that we are not privy to another person’s subjective experiences and therefore not committing the error of attributing negative motive and / or intent to their actions. So in our case that would mean assuming that a woman who is wearing tzitzis is most likely a sincere albeit misguided individual (as opposed to a willful rebel). It certainly does not include turning and unacceptable practice into an acceptable one.

    in reply to: Women wearing tzitzis #1615723
    Non Political
    Participant

    “Who can read these girls, and ladies’ minds, for it is their kavonos that are the deteminant.”

    Nope. Doing the wrong thing with pure intentions is still wrong. Just like if someone would want to introduce organ music on Shabbos in Shuls even with the purest of intentions it would be wrong.

    But when night becomes day and bassar chazir becomes kosher then all bets are off, עין לא ראה אלוקים זולתך

    in reply to: Tinuk Shenishbah #1614078
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ It Is Time For Truth

    “For one who however promotes them and and attempts to influence in public (e.g a parade)
    there never Can be categorized as such”

    Interesting. What does this have to do with whether one is considered a tinok sh’nishba or not?

    in reply to: Vegas Massacre: 59 Good Reasons to Outlaw Automatic Weapons #1613949
    Non Political
    Participant

    I think that it’s obvious that:

    gun control laws that would ban small arms would not keep these weapons out of the hands of criminals because:

    1) It is the tool of their trade
    2) Laws don’t deter criminals, that IS why they are criminals

    Such ban(s) would do a GREAT job of keeping guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens thereby increasing the criminals advantage.

    On the other hand, obviously some form of gun control is necessary (can’t have the criminally insane walking into the corner 7/11 and buying an AK-47 with a slurpee).

    As usual the devil is in the details

    in reply to: Tinuk Shenishbah #1613365
    Non Political
    Participant

    1 and Joseph are obviously not aware that the Hazon Ish has already weighed in on this matter and disagreed with them. Or maybe they disagree with the Hazon Ish. So which one is it guys?

    in reply to: anti vaxxers are wreaking havoc around the world #1611136
    Non Political
    Participant

    What do you expect at a time when chiropractors, applied kinesiologists, energy healers, ect.., are viewed by large segments of the tzibur as legitimate members of the medical community.
    Here is the recipe:

    1) Good use of the tools of influence (marketing / PR)
    2) A prevailing “anti-establishment” bias (overall, not specific to our community)

    Mix the above and serve

    in reply to: Money-saving tips for rich people #1606596
    Non Political
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Would you ask a strong able bodied person how content he would be if he found himself sickly and weak for the foreseeable future? How about a sighted person, how content he would be if he found himself losing his sight? Sure, people born that way become accustomed to their lot (as do most people as we age) but a sudden loss of one’s abilities is traumatic.

    The money a person is blessed with is their strength how one uses it and how it affects ones midos is a nisayon. Like the Masilas Yesharim says, everything in this world is a nisayon, weath on one hand and poverty on the other. So you can also turn the question on it’s head and ask how content you would be if you found yourself tomorrow in the top 1%.

    Also, it has been my observation that wealth does not seem to be a prerequisite for preoccupation with money and social status.

    in reply to: discouraging rashi in parshas bereishis #1604872
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ square root of 2

    “An underlying difficulty I have is that if the mesillas yesharim is correct, then why is the world so prone to bad and not good? If the entire point is to get sechar, why is it that “noach lo leadam shelo nivra”–why did Hashem not make it that it would be easier to get gan eden than gehenom?”

    This is an excellent question. So excellent in fact that the RAMCHAL made it the primary subject of a whole sefer which he wrote called Daat Tvunos.

    “Why is it that those who get saved from gehenom are one in many, and those that make it to gan eden are the minority”

    As someone already pointed out above getting saved from gehenom is one thing making it to Olam Haba is another.

    in reply to: discouraging rashi in parshas bereishis #1604859
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ anonymous jew

    “our alphabet uses Aramaic letters”

    False. There is no evidence that Ksav Ashuri was used by gentiles in Aram (or anywhere else). The Gemara gives a different reason for the name. So this statement is not supported by archeological or Talmudic evidence.

    “They were adopted during Galus Bavel.”

    What you mean to say is adopted by Ezrah at the end of Galus Bavel

    There is a 3 way disagreement among the Tannaim regarding Ksav Ashuri. The above statement may be true according to R’ Yossi, however
    1) The Geonim who appear to understand R’ Yossi that way write that the Halacha is not like him
    2) The Ritva and Ridbaz write that even R Yossi agrees that Ksav Ashuri goes back to the time of Matan Torah

    Central to the whole discussion is a Yerushalmi that states the the Ayin in the Luchos was supported miraculously. The Bavli says it was the Samach and the Ritva disregards this Yerushalmi. The Ridbaz distinguished between the 1st and 2nd Luchos. The Yaevitz learns that even the Yerushalmi is using the familiar Ksav as a mashal to explain the nes and isn’t meant historically.

    Prior to that, we used Paleo-Hebrew, which is shaped totally different.

    This is TBI (true but irrelevant). We used Yiddish in Europe, and all the seforim where written in Lashon Kadosh

    “The Samaritans, who copied every we did, still write their ( tref ) sifrai torah in Paleo-hebrew which leads me to believe we did too before the first churban.”

    It might be that during the 1st Beis HaMikdash writing Sifrai Torah in Ksav Ivri (Paleo Hebrew) was permitted. This has no bearing on the antiquity of Ksav Ashuri.

    “Paleo-hebrew was still in use 2000 years ago as it appears on coins minted by Bar Cochba…”

    Once again, TBI

    in reply to: discouraging rashi in parshas bereishis #1604843
    Non Political
    Participant

    @CS

    The Masilat Yesharim is saying that the very purpose for which man was created is pleasure and the place for experiencing pleasure in the most perfect way is in olam haba. This is not just “baby steps”, according to RAMCHAL it is the very tachlis of the whole project. Please do not try to read Chabbad Chassidus into RAMCHAL.

    in reply to: Hashem #1603863
    Non Political
    Participant

    Another thing to consider.

    Even relationships with people our feelings for them are built on what they do for us and what we do for them. Our sensory experience of people (how they look, sound, smell) is secondary to this.

    in reply to: Hashem #1603853
    Non Political
    Participant

    I saw above the Rabbi Kaplan’s book(s) on meditation were recommended. He has 3 books on the subject. If you do decide to pursue his books you would be well advised to FIRST read “Faith and Folly” by Rabbi Yaacov Hillel. Rabbi Yaacov Hillel’s book (originally in Hebrew) was written at the behest of Gedolai Yisroel (Chassidic, Litvish, and Sefardi) and bears their approbations.

    in reply to: Hashem #1603445
    Non Political
    Participant

    See Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb’s wonderful audio shiur on this very topic. It’s called “Speaking About G-D” and is in english. It’s available free on simpletoremember.com

    (If the direct link is disallowed I’m writing out the website name: simpletoremember dot com)

    Once on the site click on Audio/Video Shiurim (top of page), then click on Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb (right of page).

    in reply to: Alchohol #1596434
    Non Political
    Participant

    “The negative side must be directed to the kelipos”

    Yes, clearly this is accessible to all.

    in reply to: Different Circles Of Yidden Can Experience Great Unity – Achdus #1570507
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Avi K
    “See Pitchei Teshuva YD 116:10 that there is an opinion that someone who does not accept an observant Jew’s word that his food is kosher is a heretic as he opposes Chazal, who said that a single witness is believed regarding prohibitions. As for his kashrut not being up to “your standard”, what about one’s standard in ben adam l’chaveiro, avoiding mechzi k’yuheira, etc.”

    What exactly is it about upholding your community’s or family’s custom in Kashrus would make you heretical, machzi k’yuhara, and lacking love of another Jew?

    @ Avram in MD
    “Hold your heretic hurling horses there. DovidBT and knaidlach were very clearly talking about non-observant Jews”

    And if they where talking about Observant Jews would you agree with Ai K’s statement?

    in reply to: Is Yiddish Holy? #1562234
    Non Political
    Participant

    I never learned Yiddish. Recently I discovered the HaRav Chaim Kanievsky has a Daf shiur on the Hebrew Kol HaLashon site, unfortunately I could not understand it. I Had the same problem understanding HaRav Malkiel Kotler at the internet assifa a few years ago.

    And another thing. A yerushalmi avreich told me years ago while learning the Mishna Brura that while the Chofetz Chaim wrote in Hebrew he thought in Yiddish and someone who is not fluent in that language will miss the nuances of his intent.

    Non Political
    Participant

    Not sure why “chassidish” is equated with “move to the right” It’s certainly a great (profitable) perception for the haimish food businesses but it is false. That is unless ones idea of “to the right” is limited to wearing a strimel and bekisheh.

    in reply to: Orthodox Rabbi Takes Job at LGBT Synagogue – Discuss #1550010
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ IITFT
    “Kiruv is for Tinokos She’nishba…”

    This is the second time you said this in this post. Just stop. This is just plain wrong. Have a look at the work being done today by kiruv professionals (and addiction recovery professionals such as Amudim) . A huge amount of work is being done (and more needs to be done) reaching out to people who come from frum backgrounds. You, who are zealously protesting the perversion of the Torah, what do you think you are doing? Do you have any Halachic basis for your assertion? I know that you do not.

    That said, I do want to be clear that nothing in this post should be construed as support for an Orthodox Rabbi taking a position in a LGBT temple. Especially given the current cultural climate, I don’t know how anyone can possibly support such a position. A quick google search brought me to (Rabbi) Mike Moskowitz’s website which says:

    “Rabbi Moskowitz explored academic Talmud at Yale and at Jewish Theological Seminary, where he is currently completing a Doctorate in Hebrew Literature”

    I am unaware of any Orthodox Rabbi who is affiliated with JTS

    in reply to: Divorce, Regret and Marriage Counselors #1535276
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ DY

    “I think performing a civil ceremony falls into category 3”

    How? When a person is working on Sh’vis they are doing a prohibition. What prohibition is occuring during the preparation and execution of civil legal documents?

    in reply to: Divorce, Regret and Marriage Counselors #1535092
    Non Political
    Participant

    @ DY

    “It’s certainly no better than wishing success to someone plowing during Sh’viis.”

    I’m not so sure

    1) The Mishna’ot in the 5th Perek of Shv’is permit selling / lending farming implements to people who are choshud al Sh’viis provided that there is some other possible use for the tool. Those farming implements are obviously used for farming most of the time, still Chazal where lenient mpnai darchai Shalom. Only those tools which have no uses other then farming are prohibited to sell / lend. There are benefits to being civilly married even if the couple is celibate.

    2) Even those farming implements that where permitted to sell / lend mpnai darchai shalom did enable working the land. Given the current societal standards (lack of standards) it’s doubtful that a civil marriage enables anything.

    3) Wishing someone success at the time that they are actively engaged in a prohibited behavior is another matter altogether.

    Your posts are generally very thought out, I assume you considered the above and disagree. I would be interested to know why.

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