Non Political

Welfare programs are an income based entitlement. There is plenty of gravy for our friends at the other end of the economic spectrum. The fact that this squeezes the middle class and creates a “poverty trap” is a problem for the boys and girls in the public policy / legislative sector (and the economists that advise them).

@ CS

“Now if every other Torah leader says his chiddushim are migale panim baTorah shelo kahalacha, then that clues his own followers in that something is wrong…And yah I know you’re (as in the collective you) are going to jump on that.”

On the contrary, I for one, think that is an excellent answer. Definitely in the right ballpark.

It’s just that you put in two qualifications that sorta leave an eye of the needle opening big enough for an elephant to fit through

Qualification 1: “EVERY other Torah leader”

1) Avi Weiss is still a card carrying member of the RCA
2) Even with Lev Tahor, its not like the Gedolim all got together and issued a public joint statement regarding them. Worse then that, there was a frum publication with a Rabbinical Advisory Board that ran an article supporting them.

Qualification 2:
“there’s also shivim panim laTorah and there’s a difference between going against the letter or spirit of Torah (such as women reading from the Torah etc) and something that is merely an unconventional or unusual position to take.

Next

“Another indicator is that when borderline chiddushim lead to outright actions against Torah, as a natural progression of the whole, (as we have seen with the OO and now Lev Tahor in contemporary times) it shows that the questionable original chiddushim were wrong.

This would not work as an indicator because the people in the group won’t see it as being against the Torah. That is also the problem with the 2nd qualification above.

I would also suggest that it is appropriate to ask how the Gedolim regard the leader and his followers. I think one would be hard pressed to find Gedolim who would give the above individuals the time of day.

@ CS

“Here you find many regular yidden whose “hisnagdus” is mostly due to ignorance (of classic sources on moshiach and Geula, of the Halachos on how to treat a Rebbe etc etc) and most of them are not even misnagdim in any way at all, just fellow frum yidden.”

That’s quite a condescending statement. I find it personally offensive and I’m sure other posters on this thread do as well.

You should know that Muslims have a similar position. One of their proofs for Islam is that anyone who knows Arabic and can therefore read and understand the Koran will see clearly that it is a work of prophecy. Anyone who does not accept it as such is either a) doesn’t understand it or b) is a willing infidel.

I’m NOT chv”sh comparing you to a muslim. I AM comparing your statement and their “proof”.

@ NCB

“but why, of all places, did you decide to come in at this point and defend that alleged statemen

I wasn’t defended that statement chv”sh. The statement as a whole is indefensible because:

1) It claims the Rebbe is Moshiach
2) It addresses a whole segment of Yidden with a derogatory name

I was merely providing the context wherein the part of the statement which appears to be a glaringly irreconcilable stira can be made to shtim.

@ DY

“That’s not putting it into context, that’s distorting it beyond recognition.”

I prefer to look at it as a slight nip tuck, with professionally applied make up.

@SH

“I assume you know that so why are you asking the question”

It wasn’t a question

@ CS

“Gerrer Rebbe, Baba Sali and reb zusia for example weren’t involved with writing halacha (as far as I know) and were still seen as tzaddikim..This shows that the criterion here is not a specific list – just he is known and trusted to Torah true Jews by his behaviour etc.

This is true. Another example would be the Ramchal, we don’t have Halachic works from him. One could even point out that there was a strong opposition to him by other leading sages during his lifetime (a cherem on certain works even).

You are right that the list of 3 criteria wasn’t meant as a check list per se, it’s not that you need “all of the above” and davka these 3. You asked me what I would consider objective criteria for determining who is a Gadol and I gave 3 examples. However what they have in common is not “he is known and trusted to Torah true Jews by his behaviour etc”. Rather the common denominator is the seriousness with which other Rabbonim take his Torah.

Next point

“Also yes Torah true adherents add value. We see that ain melech blo am, and the Kings of today are the Rabbonim and Torah leaders. If someone tells you so and so is a Rebbe and he has two chassidim, you will think less of him than a Rebbe who has a thousand, because the fact that a thousand Torah true yidden have chosen him to inspire and guide their Avodas Hashem gives him more credence.”

The ARI HaKadosh, The RMCH”L, the GR”A and the BSH”T had a small number of direct Talmidim. No one considers them less of a Rebbe because of this.

Next Point

“And lastly by learning their Torah we see what kind of person or Torah great they were. Like the Or Hachaim for example”

Not necessarily. The learner has to be competent to evaluate.

@ Random3X

“There have been many known tzaddikim who did not meet all of those criteria”

I didn’t say one needed to meet ALL of the criteria

@ CS
“how bout you tell me what the criteria are for establishing who are the tzadikim?”

For starters here are some things to look for:
1) He is regarded as a Gadol b’Torah by the Gedolim already established as such. This means that they give serious weight to his opinion in their own Halachic rulings*.
2) His Torah is studied widely in Yeshivos and Kollelim
3) Community Rebbeim (of various communities) turn to this person with there own shailos

As a postscript to point 1, I would point out that things like addressing him with honorary titles, speaking his praises, attending his levaya, being a Rosh Yeshiva in his yeshiva, ect. doesn’t cut it.

I also want to stress that the subject was never “establishing who the Tzadikim are. The discussion was who is a Gadol B’Yisroel. Nevertheless we can be certain that such a person is a Tzadik and if someone would wish to claim otherwise the burden to bring compelling evidence would be on them to substantiate their claim.

One more thing. The above is useful for determining who is a Gadol. As far as determining who is “THE Gadol” even Shmuel HaNavi couldn’t do that without prophecy.

@ CS

“Lubavitch was the only Torah outreach movement. (Not anymore today bh)”

I have a different perspective on this point.

After the war most of the Gedolim in E”Y and America where focusing on rebuilding Yeshivos and Beis Yaacovs. This is very much in line with the priorities expressed by ריב”ז when he famously asked for Yavneh and it’s scholars. This was a two pronged project. (1) The establishment of major Torah centers and (2) the establishment of day schools and later kollelim in many “out of town” communities. Their efforts where blessed with tremendous success and today we are all the beneficiaries of their foresight and mesiras nefesh.
I think you would be hard pressed to demonstrate that the last Lubavitcher Rebbes shlichus initiative had a greater overall impact on Klal Yisroel.

But I digress. I will be happy to address the other question shortly.

@ CS

“Np by your reasoning, Eliyahu hanavi and har hacarmel would have never happened. We have a clear mitzva of listening to our chachamim which was applied then (source Rambam Sefer hamitzvos:) If someone is known to you to be a tzadik, then you follow everything he says, EVEN IF he tells you to temporarily stop doing a mitzvah.”

Not sure what you mean. My point was what criteria we use for determining who is a Tzadik. Nothing in my post contradicts that one follows the hora’ah shah of an established leader of the generation.

Next

Me: “The determination is not made based on the number of adherents. For example, the Karaites outnumbered traditional Yidden in many communities for a not insignificant period of time. The Rambam controversy was resolved in large part due to the Rambans involvement and R’ Yona’s retraction. It is true that ultimately there is historical closure but it often takes multiple generations to happen and is therefore not a useful criteria.”

You: Note that I wrote Torah true yidden. Your rebuttal about the karaim is like me looking to the reform or even other religions.

You missed my point. To use your example. Even though there are many reform jews the number doesn’t matter because they are not Torah True Yidden. Torah true Yidden follow the Torah as it is transmitted by the Chochmai HaDor. Now, WHO the chochmai hador are cannot be determined based on how many adherents they have. My example for this was the Karites who had lots of adherents for quite a while.

@ CS

Me: “Step 1 – None of those abilities are unique to a Tzadik (meaning that even non-tzadikim can have them)
Step 2 – Therefore having these abilities does not establish one who possesses them as a Tzadik.”

You: “I am not sure about this – I have seen inside shaar hayichud vihoemuna where the Alter Rebbe states that Hashem increases emuna in this world by revealing His abilities through the tzadikim and the miracles they do. This would imply that only tzaddikim do miracles but I’m open to hearing other sources that show otherwise, if you have. In a similar vein, tzadik gozer vHKBH mekayem etc. Yes every Jew has the ability to rise above nature by adhering to Torah and mitzvos, but to promise and come through on miracles, and to decree them with the certainty that Hashem will fulfill seems to be something unique to tzaddikim.”

You know that it is not unique to Tzaddikim from the Parsha in Chumash re: Navi Sheker. The point is that EVEN a navi sheker can affect miracles and know hidden things. One does not have to intentionally seek to use the s”a, one can be misled (and himself not even realize it). Now, I’m NOT saying that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe was misled in this way. What I am saying is that since such abilities are not unique to Tzadikim they cannot be used as a criteria.

The above quote from the first Lubavitcher Rebbe does not contradict this at all. The fact that Hashem increases emuna in this world by revealing His abilities through the tzadikim and the miracles they do has nothing to do with what criteria ought to be used for accepting them as Tzadikim in the first place.

Next

Me: “What does exist is that numerous Gedolim who were contemporaries of the Lubavitcher Rebbe did hold him in very high esteem and regarded him as a Gadol B’Yisroel. This is a matter of record and is undisputable. You have cited many examples of this in previous threads. So, if your proposition would have been “The Lubavitcher Rebbe was a Gadol B’Yisroel” I would agree that the evidence you cited in previous threads is relevant to accepting THAT proposition. But that is not what you are proposing.”

You: “Ironically that’s what I was meaning to propose, I just used a more lubavitch term which truly means more what you say.”

Given you posts in this (and the last 2 threads) don’t believe that you are proposing to regard the Last Lubavitcher Rebbe as merely a peer of the other Gedolim of his generation. I think what you actually mean is this
1) The last Lubavitcher Rebbe was a Gadol B’Yisroel (as per the above criteria), and
2) Hashem increases emuna in this world by revealing His abilities through the tzadikim and the miracles they do
3) Given point 1 and 2 above (IN THAT ORDER) the miracles and accomplishments of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe where indicative of unique greatness

You: My point was to explain why I hold of my Rebbe as I do…

It’s true that we shouldn’t determine what is right and wrong based on winning debates and skilled rhetoric. However, the standard one proposes to adapt should be objectively reliable and applied consistently. Having the matter be a personal decision doesn’t change that.

You: In fact that’s precisely how we’ve determined who’s who in the Torah world, who’s a tzadik etc throughout all the generations: generally by two categories:
1) how many Torah yidden accept their teachings and follow them long term (the Rambam was originally highly controversial but is now universally accepted and acclaimed as a tzadik)

The determination is not made based on the number of adherents. For example, the Karaites outnumbered traditional Yidden in many communities for a not insignificant period of time. The Rambam controversy was resolved in large part due to the Rambans involvement and R’ Yona’s retraction. It is true that ultimately there is historical closure but it often takes multiple generations to happen and is therefore not a useful criteria.

You: 2) other tzaddikim who can see soul levels testifying about the status of said individual.

Since we regular people have no way of knowing who can actually do this I don’t see how this can be a criteria.

You: But it is done because it resonates with the neshama…

Everyone over the age of 15 has had experiences with things resonating with them and later realizing that they were objectively 100% wrong. So that criteria is not reliable either.

@ Out Of Towner

I was thinking of the Chazal he was referring to. Thank you for providing the nimshal.

@ SH

“Goes to show that you’re not actually so familiar with Lubavitch:)
I never heard this person being nicknamed “Shofech Domim” but I got the inference right away”

The fact that you got the inference right away reflects very poorly on the company you keep, far worse than TTs post in fact.

@ CS

You: “How do you know if someone is not normal?” Has reached a spiritual height that is out of your league but precisely because of that can help you in ways the “regular” Rabbanim etc can’t? When you see evidence that…they can sense and see things normal people can’t. They can read thoughts and see straight into ones soul. That’s what u mean by that proof.meaning its proof that the Rebbe is beyond our league.”

Me: “No, even if all of the above would be 100% verifiably true this would prove nothing at all. This is very important. In fact Rav Yaacov Hillel wrote “Faith and Folly” precisely to combat this misconception (among others). He wrote it at the behest of just about all the gedolim Sefardi, Litvish, Chassidish (see haskamos to his sefer).”

You: I don’t understand your point here. Please elaborate.

I’ll be glad to

In a nutshell. You are advancing the following proposition: The Lubavitcher Rebbe (subject) is Unique in his, and subsequent generation in that the following is true specifically and exclusively regarding him
a) He is the Nassi HaDor (predicate)
b) He is the Moshe Rebbeinu of the Generation (predicate)
c) He is a Tzadik as per the Tanya (predicate)

you cite 2 categories of positive evidence as grounds for accepting the above proposition

1) The types of accomplishments you listed above.
a)Has reached a spiritual height that is out of your league but precisely because of that can help you in ways the “regular” Rabbanim etc can’t
b) Can sense and see things normal people can’t.
c) Can read thoughts and see straight into ones soul.

2) That he was regarded as such by many contemporary Gedolim.

My point is that:

The 1st category of evidence is not evidence because even if was 100% verified and accepted as fact it would not be relevant to accepting your proposition. It’s not relevant because:

Step 1 – None of those abilities are unique to a Tzadik (meaning that even non-tzadikim can have them)
Step 2 – Therefore having these abilities does not establish one who possesses them as a Tzadik.

The 2nd category of evidence would in fact be very relevant to accepting your proposition if it in fact existed. But it doesn’t. What does exist is that numerous Gedolim who were contemporaries of the Lubavitcher Rebbe did hold him in very high esteem and regarded him as a Gadol B’Yisroel. This is a matter of record and is undisputable. You have cited many examples of this in previous threads. So, if your proposition would have been “The Lubavitcher Rebbe was a Gadol B’Yisroel” I would agree that the evidence you cited in previous threads is relevant to accepting THAT proposition. But that is not what you are proposing.

@SL

“I just hope that people like Seckel hayashar are silently cringing”

I don’t think they’re cringing. I think they”ll say Shmuel b’doro…Yiftach b’doro…ect.

.

It comes down to this:

Once a person has chosen to believe that a certain person is a Tzadik who has no Yetzer HaRah and any of his statements are a direct expression of Divine Will no further discussion (on any matter pertaining to the Tzadik or his teachings) is possible. The strength of such a belief is precisely in the fact that no positive evidence is presented for it and therefore there is nothing to refute. Instead the focus is on wonderous and miraculous stories about the Tzadik. Combine with a personal investment of time and resources and strong social proof and you have the makings of very strong faith which becomes self reinforcing. Make no mistake about it, this formula works.

@StuartW

“There are plenty of circumstances under which women wearing tsitsis is permitted. I am not talking about Women of the Wall.”

What would those circumstances be exactly??

“I doubt R Moshe used the exact verbiage you presented. He may have been referring to Women of the Wall types who put on a rebellious show.”

Rebellion means – the act or process of resisting authority, control, or convention. Wearing tzitzis by women certainly runs contrary to past and present convention and halachic authority. Are you aware of of any top tier poskim who sanctioned this practice? Any community where this practice was the accepted custom?

“He didn’t know of all the women in the world who wear tsitsis in halachically acceptable ways with hearts consumed with a isas hashem.”

All the heartfelt sincerity in the world wouldn’t make this practice acceptable

“My mission here is not to appear smart or to argue. I just would like people to err on the side of kaf z’chus”

Judging lkaf zchus means acknowledging that we are not privy to another person’s subjective experiences and therefore not committing the error of attributing negative motive and / or intent to their actions. So in our case that would mean assuming that a woman who is wearing tzitzis is most likely a sincere albeit misguided individual (as opposed to a willful rebel). It certainly does not include turning and unacceptable practice into an acceptable one.

@ It Is Time For Truth

“For one who however promotes them and and attempts to influence in public (e.g a parade)
there never Can be categorized as such”

Interesting. What does this have to do with whether one is considered a tinok sh’nishba or not?

1 and Joseph are obviously not aware that the Hazon Ish has already weighed in on this matter and disagreed with them. Or maybe they disagree with the Hazon Ish. So which one is it guys?

Joseph,

Would you ask a strong able bodied person how content he would be if he found himself sickly and weak for the foreseeable future? How about a sighted person, how content he would be if he found himself losing his sight? Sure, people born that way become accustomed to their lot (as do most people as we age) but a sudden loss of one’s abilities is traumatic.

The money a person is blessed with is their strength how one uses it and how it affects ones midos is a nisayon. Like the Masilas Yesharim says, everything in this world is a nisayon, weath on one hand and poverty on the other. So you can also turn the question on it’s head and ask how content you would be if you found yourself tomorrow in the top 1%.

Also, it has been my observation that wealth does not seem to be a prerequisite for preoccupation with money and social status.

@ anonymous jew

“our alphabet uses Aramaic letters”

False. There is no evidence that Ksav Ashuri was used by gentiles in Aram (or anywhere else). The Gemara gives a different reason for the name. So this statement is not supported by archeological or Talmudic evidence.

“They were adopted during Galus Bavel.”

What you mean to say is adopted by Ezrah at the end of Galus Bavel

There is a 3 way disagreement among the Tannaim regarding Ksav Ashuri. The above statement may be true according to R’ Yossi, however
1) The Geonim who appear to understand R’ Yossi that way write that the Halacha is not like him
2) The Ritva and Ridbaz write that even R Yossi agrees that Ksav Ashuri goes back to the time of Matan Torah

Central to the whole discussion is a Yerushalmi that states the the Ayin in the Luchos was supported miraculously. The Bavli says it was the Samach and the Ritva disregards this Yerushalmi. The Ridbaz distinguished between the 1st and 2nd Luchos. The Yaevitz learns that even the Yerushalmi is using the familiar Ksav as a mashal to explain the nes and isn’t meant historically.

Prior to that, we used Paleo-Hebrew, which is shaped totally different.

This is TBI (true but irrelevant). We used Yiddish in Europe, and all the seforim where written in Lashon Kadosh

“The Samaritans, who copied every we did, still write their ( tref ) sifrai torah in Paleo-hebrew which leads me to believe we did too before the first churban.”

It might be that during the 1st Beis HaMikdash writing Sifrai Torah in Ksav Ivri (Paleo Hebrew) was permitted. This has no bearing on the antiquity of Ksav Ashuri.

“Paleo-hebrew was still in use 2000 years ago as it appears on coins minted by Bar Cochba…”

Once again, TBI

Another thing to consider.

Even relationships with people our feelings for them are built on what they do for us and what we do for them. Our sensory experience of people (how they look, sound, smell) is secondary to this.

See Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb’s wonderful audio shiur on this very topic. It’s called “Speaking About G-D” and is in english. It’s available free on simpletoremember.com

(If the direct link is disallowed I’m writing out the website name: simpletoremember dot com)

Once on the site click on Audio/Video Shiurim (top of page), then click on Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb (right of page).

@ Avi K
“See Pitchei Teshuva YD 116:10 that there is an opinion that someone who does not accept an observant Jew’s word that his food is kosher is a heretic as he opposes Chazal, who said that a single witness is believed regarding prohibitions. As for his kashrut not being up to “your standard”, what about one’s standard in ben adam l’chaveiro, avoiding mechzi k’yuheira, etc.”

What exactly is it about upholding your community’s or family’s custom in Kashrus would make you heretical, machzi k’yuhara, and lacking love of another Jew?

@ Avram in MD
“Hold your heretic hurling horses there. DovidBT and knaidlach were very clearly talking about non-observant Jews”

And if they where talking about Observant Jews would you agree with Ai K’s statement?

Not sure why “chassidish” is equated with “move to the right” It’s certainly a great (profitable) perception for the haimish food businesses but it is false. That is unless ones idea of “to the right” is limited to wearing a strimel and bekisheh.

@ DY

“I think performing a civil ceremony falls into category 3”

How? When a person is working on Sh’vis they are doing a prohibition. What prohibition is occuring during the preparation and execution of civil legal documents?

Even by the Torah prohibition of לפני עיור (and certainly by מסייע) there is considerable discussion in the contemporary halachic works when dealing with not yet religious person if failing to provide a service will cause animosity and the issur is one which they are not aware of.

Don’t you guys think CTL would have asked his Rav a Shaila about something like this?