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It’s chukas hatziyonim, because working people wear denim.
No. But I’ve apparantly discussed it with more people than you have. Most notably, I spent some time trolling one of the popular law school internet forums.
You ask what evidence I have that other schools give an A+? I don’t need evidence–you can simply go on their website and look. Google grading policy and the name of any school and you should be able to pull up their curve. (Also, I’m sorry you never got an A+, but they are really really hard to get.)
Your statement “You can get an A+ without a single proper sentence on a law school exam” may be true to your experiences, but mine are 1) there’s no A+ in law school, and 2) writing ability is the primary factor in a grade. It’s not merely what you say, but how you say it. I’ve never seen an A exam answer with clearly improper sentences (with the exception of one professor I had who had strict severe word limits).
1. Law schools have A+. Perhaps not every one, but most do.
2. Writing ability is the least factor in a grade. I have been shown A+ exams from top schools with misspelled words, broken sentences, and horrific grammar.
Even in the best law schools, they give homework and tests and are competitive about grades. The best yeshivos have bochurim sitting and learning for hours- the motivation comes not from grades or tests, but from within.
1. Law school does not have homework.
2. Law school does not have tests–just one final at the end of each semester for each class.
You don’t seem to know much about law school.
I know many BTL grads who have issues in Grad School with writing skills, research skills, ect. They have needed to take some remedial classes.
Let’s talk about law school specifically, not about generic grad school. Nobody coming to law school knows how to do legal research (except the former paralegals perhaps).
Lol. You have internet, and use it for things like the coffee room (which is obviously not for work or shopping or paying bills), and then you don’t want your daughter to do the same?
I agree with torah.
And frumnotyesh:
You think people with regular undeegrads have a better work ethic than BTL’s??? Why???
I’ll let you qualify that or amend it before I blast you.
Yes connections can help you get a job. But I don’t think you are correct that going to columbia college will be much help over BMG if you have similar grades, connections, and presentation.
I think you are too pessimistic regarding getting biglaw from elite schools. That isn’t to say it is easy, but if you can get good grades from an elite school you have quite a good likelihood.
Also, yeshiva guys do have good connections. Often much better than their classmates
Lastly, you’d likely agree that writing strength and work ethic are the overwhelming majority of what law school grades comprise of. Both those attributes are necessarily present far more in a legit undergrad degree than in a BTL.
No, writing skills are not at all relevant to law school success except in one class. You can get an A+ without a single proper sentence on a law school exam.
Why would you say that?
T613: And what do you study, may we wonder?
Dear mods,
My wife wants chives in the cholent, but I don’t know what chives are. Please help quick.
Love,
Popa bar abby
Mods: is it ok if a husband makes the cholent in the house? What if that means he will put in chives?
It is a segula for Shalom Bayis if he puts in chives. – The All Knowing YW Moderator-127
That’s not fair!my wife doesn’t give me spending money!
akuperma: Are you saying that even after getting into an elite law school, BTL’s will have a harder time getting “biglaw”? Because my BTL friends in elite schools are pretty much all in biglaw, including in very elite firms.
If you look around at the top firm’s websites, you’ll find plenty of “Beth Medrash Govoha” degrees, and the like.
Your information really is outdated. Big firms who come to interview at top schools look foremost at grades, then somewhat at personality and presenation. They almost never even ask where you went to undergrad unless you are trying to go into a science heavy field like patent law. And they certainly won’t ever look at any standardized test score–including the LSAT; by the time you are in law school, only law school grades count.
Zdad: of course it is related, because you are precisely arguing that we should become MO to keep our kids frum. So we should see whether that works for MO
Frumnotyeshivish:
Cool, did you know some BTL’s in top schools (let’s say penn, columbia, or harvard)? Did they do well in school? Were they more or less spread along the curve gradewise, or did they bunch at either end?
Among the ones I know, they tilt towards the higher end of the curve gradewise (in aggregate).
The OP does not seem like a bored bochur. He seems very well entertained.
Zdad: do less kids go OTD in MONTH communities where all this is practiced?
A credit card. You abusive husband.
No. I was saying that.
1. Your experiences would be helpful, but I don’t believe that the information is reliable and unbiased.
2. The conclusions are not helpful.
Also, let me pose a counterpoint here, and zahavasdad can feel free to weigh in. Is there less of a problem of people going off the derech among the MO community? Right, so that kind of shows this analysis is worthless.
Thanks DY for bumping that thread. It has become very relevant very fast.
The point I have been unsuccessfully making is that even though talking to the people who leave may give us good insight into what the shortcomings are, there are also serious caveats that need to be included.
Included in that is the fact that the people who leave have all sorts of dynamics going on inside their heads to justify why they left post-hoc. The reasons they say may not be the real reasons they left, and the perceptions they claim may not have really been perceived.
Include in this the fact that people who are so unhappy with their life that they make huge upheavals and abandon their former social circles and family are highly likely to have all sorts of issues.
Moreover, even if their observations are relevant and helpful, there is no reason why their recommendations for change are at all relevant or helpful. They don’t have any special insight in what might make it better, and certainly don’t have any insight in how to balance their concern against all sorts of counterbalancing concerns.
Because of that, I don’t find the information from OTD people particularly useful. And I don’t find their recommendations worth listening to at all.
Just don’t hold of the eruv, and then it won’t bother you.
Would you really ask a law school dropout how to run a law school? Sure, it would be worthwhile to ask what bothered him that he wanted to leave, but would you really care for his recommendations?
See, it works
I don’t ask vegetarians for cholent recipes.
People die if they don’t eat!
Closest boarding is really at Mountain Creek-it is pretty good for a small mountain, but the terrain park is really the best part. I recommend it for more advanced boarders.
If you drive a bit further, Hunter Mtn is really the best within day trip range.
Blast this all. I want pie.
It can’t because lo adu rosh
Get plastic surgery
Oops, I thought you asked about aderes
No. But it gives me a basis for making my statements beyond conjecture.
I would conjecture.
I daresay I know more BTLs who have gone to top law schools than you do.
Cows wear leather. It reminds me of a cow when I see them.
No, it will not.
So much cooking and baking! At least it isn’t in my kitchen this time! http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/help-i-let-my-wife-into-the-kitchen
3) There are no “sides” when it comes to giving a get. If they’ve mutually decided to end the marriage, have divided their assets, and have been living separately, there can be NO reason whatsoever to withhold a get.
Sure, if there is nothing left to negotiate, there can be no reason to withhold a get. But suppose he is alleging that she molests the kids and using that as leverage to get custody? Mightn’t it be ok for her to refuse a get as leverage agaisnt him?
There certainly are “sides” in divorce.
If he wants law school, a strong law school will give him way more than a weak law school and a strong liberal arts education.
It isn’t kavod for camp to waste it on shabbos when you can’t do any of the stuff you came to camp to do.
Go to a real college and get a real degree. Nothing can take the place of a real education.
Except getting into a better law school with your higher GPA on your BTL.
The rashba. Rabbeinu Shlomo ben Aderes.
I don’t know which are comparable in quality, but you can have a very high quality sheitel in the 1000 range.
Gedolah melacha, shem’chabedes es baalehah
It is ridiculous to plan for law school before taking the LSAT. It is like planning how to become a NFL player before ever picking up a football.
I have heard it is just as common for women to refuse a get as for men to refuse to give one. The reason you hear more about the men is that people like to care about it more. Perhaps they think it is worse since there is no possibility of heter meah rabbonim.
Eh? I believe it removes a barrier. But I don’t think remaining in marriage because the alternative is poverty is a good thing.
There are much cheaper sheitels.
I see. Trapping women financially in marriage is a cause for divorce.
Boy am I glad I don’t live in your world.
You can graduate law school by 22 no problem.
Graduate high school at 17. Year in seminary, second year in maalot oir something and walk out with undergrad from thomas jefferson at 19. Three years of law school and now you’re 22. Walk into a job at a top law firm and you can support your husband in kollel forever.
Best is husband won’t need to leave the dorm because you’ll never be home (assuming you’re in NYC)(otherwise you’ll be home a bit but it won’t bother you that he stays late in seder)
DY: more than 18 is not 18