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DY: Lifnim Mishuras HaDin can only apply Bein Adam L’atzmo. As soon as you advocate it on someone else, you have changed it.
DY: But the OO don’t claim it comes from a secular worldview (well, some of them). They claim it comes from a Torah view. And if your level of unacceptability is how far from recognizable the Halachah gets twisted, I think your position is indefensible.
DY: I’m not guessing. That is the central point of OO–that emotions can let us ignore the Halachic process. How is this any different?
annon: Everything is relative. It is probably much more difficult for any of us to go a week without showering than it was for them to do that.
DY: My point is that it’s not OO when he says it because he knows when and how it fits in.
Joseph: If you want to be photographed/videoed while you’re there, it’s probably Ksiva, maybe even D’oraisa. R’ Schachter actually holds that it’s Mechikah D’Oraisa.
DY: R’ Shlomo Zalman, who is himself part of the Halachic process, is fit to tell us when feelings can affect it and when they can’t. That’s an important difference.
annon: I think your cause and effect are reversed. Are the Kulas in America because we’re spoiled? Or is the Ikkar HaDin from the times of Chazal because people until 100 years ago are generally unhygienic? I don’t think there’s a proof either way. It depends on your assumption.
DY: Elaborate, please. What point am I missing?
DY: No. You’re missing the point. Yes, it’s about Aveilus. And yes, it’s about what we feel during this time. But how we show what we feel is defined by Halachah, not the other way around. Stopping the Halachic process because of emotion is wrong and antithetical to Torah. Just like stopping the Halachic process because of emotions of sympathy towards women, homosexuals, etc. who feel unwelcome is.
annon: Honestly, I think that your position is anti-Torah (and syag, I apologize for this). You are making a special emotional case for something that may or may not be extra-Halachic. You are no longer trying to discuss a Halachah. You feel that you know the proper way to remember Yerushalayim, forget what Halachah says. Frankly, it’s absurd. My reductio ad absurdum case for this is to tell you you can’t shower all year long because you should be mourning the loss of the Beis Hamikdash. And don’t you dare ask a Shailah about that. After all, even thinking about asking the Shailah is missing out on the Aveilus in the first place. Congratulations, you just created an emotional religion that doesn’t care about Halachah and refuses to let others care about Halachah. Honestly, it’s the same thing that goes on in YCT and OO. You just have a different result.
Leis Man D’palig that Ben Gurion was a Rasha.
Feivel: I think mistaken assumptions can make one a Rasha, especially if those mistaken assumptions lead to actions that classify as Rishus.
sushi: The Mishnah Brurah quotes the Magen Avraham’s emotional piece on having the strings out, but there are still many who are/were Noheg to keep them in, which is a strong Minhag.
ca: I would think it improper to wear a baseball cap to Daven, yes. Tzitzis in or out is Talui in Minhag, really.
sushibagel: A Rodef based on an improper assumption is still a Rodef.
Joseph: Kippah and Tzitzis seem Jewish enough to me.
If you only have 1 shirt, you can wash it during the 9 days. That’s in the Gemara.
Joseph: Hashem’s Army has many divisions, each with their own uniform.
So what’s wrong with the division that doesn’t wear hats?
Joseph: Because then it’s subjective and meaningless. Maybe I’ll tell you it’s in the process of changing now again and so there is no reason to do it.
Joseph: That doesn’t make any sense. If it’s what Hashem wants you to wear, why would it change? And if it changes, what allows it to change/determines the change?
Joseph: There was a conversation via an intermediary (I heard this directly from the intermediary) where he presented each other’s Tzdadim. Basically, R’ Dovid was shocked that Israelis can think it’s okay to go a full week in the summer heat without bathing. R’ Shlomo Zalman, on the other hand, was shocked that Americans are so Mefunak that they cannot survive a week without showering.
Joseph: It’s so nice to know that none of the Tannaim and Amoraim were on Hashem’s team.
Avram: That sounds logical. But emotions and insinuations rarely have logic. I chose Efrat as an example for a reason. There are places where it is much more volatile than others. And IY”H someday soon there will never be such fights again. But L’ma’aseh in many places in E”Y the hat is much more a political symbol than anything with any Halachic meaning.
LF: Incorrect. In cases where it would bother people it is Muttar to shower. This is brought down in almost all contemporary Poskim and is a famous humorous discussion between R’ Dovid Feinstein and R’ Shlomo Zalman.
Joseph: You miss the point. Mechubad dress in America 75 years ago was a hat and jacket. That’s what Jews wear now (and what many wore in Europe because that was respectable dress in Europe also).
DY: My Mesorah is on when the M”B uses the phrase.
DY: Doesn’t R’ Moshe give GAW’s logic explicitly in that T’shuvah? That it’s just Lo Yitachen?
Also, my Mesorah is that “Ba’al Nefesh Yachmir” means Muttar Lechatchilah. And that attempting to be Machmir is Yuhara. R’ Moshe was a Ba’al Nefesh. I’m not.
Joseph: Really? What was different about Jewish and non-Jewish dress in America 75 years ago? Please, tell me.
And you have to realize what things are like in E”Y. There are many, many places where someone walking into a Chareidi Shul without a hat will not be counted for a Minyan or will be forced to Daven in the women’s section. The hat and jacket define everything. It’s not an inferiority complex about one’s Judaism to resent those who wear hats and jackets when the hat and jacket are exactly what people use to determine your level of being Jewish. It’s not fun, it’s not happy, and it’s awful on both sides. I wish it would stop. But it doesn’t. So acknowledging that reality, I realize that it is disgustingly Chutzpah-dik to wear a hat into some DL shuls. They don’t feel he’s better than them. They feel that he holds himself as better than them because he wears a hat.
Gadol Kavod HaBriyos
ca: A Sfek Sfeka Le’esor B’pikuach Nefesh? Rachmana Litzlan.
Health: It would depend on how many carry WNV, probably. If I’m in Panama, though, it’s for sure Muttar.
See the Shulchan Aruch on trapping bees. According to the M”B it’s Muttar even if you know it’s not diseased. According to the Aruch HaShulchan, it might be Assur.
Joseph: So you are saying that your Minhag to wear a hat and jacket to Daven came from the fact that 50 years ago your Rebbeim and parents and everyone were too Gaava’dik to not dress differently than Goyim and therefore we should dress the same way they do? That;s absurd.
DY: Sometimes, often, politics come from religion. I have seen communities like that. And it’s not politics. If I walked into some Shuls in Efrat or other DL wearing a hat, it would mean a lot more than just “I want to wear a hat for Davening”. Like it or not, in E”Y wearing a hat is very politicized, on both sides. And yes, I would think it incredibly rude to wear a hat into many Shuls in Yehudah V’Shomron, because they see it as saying, “I’m better than you”. A lot of DL vs Chareidi politics in E”Y aren’t pretty. And sometimes we have to acknowledge that.
DY: I could hear someone saying that hats are more a political than Halachic symbol nowadays and that wearing them risks of Gaavah. It might not be true, but I don’t think it’s inherently invalid.
sushi: Only if you assume there was an inherent Halachic reason for wearing a hat in the first place. If you assume (like Pashtus in the Mishnah Berurah) that the reason for a hat is because that was what was considered Mechubad at the time, it’s not considered being Mevatel a Minhag to acknowledge that it is no longer considered Mechubad.
Interesting. You’re probably right. There’s probably no Hetter. TZ”I
DY: Yes, really. If a Kehillah makes a Halachic/meta-Halachic decision to not wear hats to Daven, that presumably creates a meaningful Minhag.
DY: Well, it’s Batel. And you won’t say Bittul Lechatchilah is Assur if a Goy does the Bittul. But if he does it Al Da’as Yisrael, you do. So if the milk has a Hechsher, that shows it’s (at least somewhat) Al Daas Yisrael.
sushibgel: What’s the source for that and the context (is that a SH”A or M”B) and what’s your point?
ca: Quotes without context are incredibly dangerous.
The answer to the original question is that it depends on the ends and the means. There are cases where yes and cases where no.
Joseph: Not everyone wears a Gartel. Plenty of hat-and-jacket wearing Yeshiva guys don’t.
How did Jews dress differently between 100 and 50 years ago? Or did we invent the hat and jacket to look different?
DY: Why should that be different than any other case of negative Minhag (e.g. women Schecting)? A shul where *no one* wears a hat probably chose that a lot more deliberately than women “chose” to stop Shechting.
Joseph: You are wrong on several counts. First of all, there is a Chiyuv(ish) to add a Begged for Davening. If you always wear a hat and jacket, you need something else. Hikon Likras Elokecha Yisrael.
Second of all, where do you think that Jews got their mode of respectful dress from? I know that when I was in preschool I came home after drawing Moshe Rabbeinu coming down from Har Sinai in a hat and jacket, but you don’t actually believe that, do you?
Condescending?
Doesn’t the SH”A mention Machzir Grushaso as being Muttar in the 3 weeks? I have to review.
There was an interesting article a year or so back where a Rabbi made a claim that there was a milk (it had some shark extract mixed in) that is only Kosher if it doesn’t have any Hashgacha but if it had Kosher certification it would be Treif. He’s probably even right.
Mazal: R’ Ovadia Yosef fought tooth and nail to let the Rabbanut let Sefardim get married during the 3 weeks because that’s not the Minhag for most of them.
I think the Shulchan Aruch says that a Tavshil with Blios of meat is Muttar. This should be the same, no?
When there’s a Rabbinic way.
DY: I assume Yoshev BaChutz is the same as not being there, but I might have to do more research on that.
Mazal: Incorrect. According to almost everyone (maybe even everyone), Shavua Shechal Bo this year is all of next week because Tishah B’av is a Nidche.
By the way, I don’t think dairy farms have non-cow animals anymore. It should all be Muttar because of Ein Tamei B’edro anyway.
GAW and DY: R’ Moshe has a T’shuvah on this identical issue where he says similar to the Chazon Ish but comes out differently (it’s in CM 2, I think). Also, DY, I think Slifkin is B’feirush on this for Hilchos Treifos, for whatever it’s worth (not much).
Sefardim do. Other than that, the Minhag of Ashkenazim is to not get married during the 3 weeks.
They are very hard to find in America. The best, by far, is Mevakshei Panecha.