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Rebbe Yid: Fakhert. We now have unanimous agreement that there’s a Machlokes HaPoskim. How dumb and arrogant would someone have to be to say “Don’t vote because R’ Shteinman did” or “You have to vote because R’ Shternbuch didn’t”? Try telling one of them they’re wrong. Try it.
If someone has Ra’ayos against one, we can discuss that. But don’t quote one and just ignore the others.
There’s a Shma Minah 8 somewhere, I think.
Joseph: The Lashon of “Lo” instead of “Assur” usually implies a Lechatchilah or Middas Chassidus in the Shulchan Aruch.
Joseph: The Shulchan Aruch quotes lots of Dinim. Some are D’Oraisa. Some are D’Rabannan. Some are Minhagim. And some are just Minhagei Chassidus. For example, it is quoted B’sheim R’ Moshe that most of the things in the first 4 SImanim of OC are Minhagei Chassidus. Washing one’s hands immediately after scratching one’s head or touching one’s upper arm, for example. It’s a generally accepted Klal in Achronim that when the Mechaber starts a phrase with “Lo” (instead of “Assur”) it’s just a Lechatchilah or Minhag Chassidus.
And I thought I explained this in another thread. The Rambam is referring to just Stam being outside. That should be only once a month. He explicitly excludes from that going to Simchos and similar activities (I don’t recall of visiting friends was also excluded but I think so; I’ll have to look it up again).
Joseph: In this case, it’s really easy. This is no Din D’Oraisa or D’Rabannan. The Shulchan Aruch brought down a Minhag Chassidus which, certainly nowadays, Rov HaOlam is not Makpid on.
Oh, and as I’ve pointed out in different threads, you’re misreading the Shulchan Aruch here.
Good. So we have a Machlokes HaPoskim and follow whoever your Rav follows. No need to argue over this.
I was about to mention that post from R’ Kahn. It’s so sad the story isn’t true. It’s such an amazing story.
I’m totally Chozer on what I said two years ago. The Minhag nowadays seems to be Meikil for music at night. It’s a relatively recent Minhag so there is no need to be overly Machmir. There is no reason to necessarily compare music to haircuts, which standard Psak is to Assur until tomorrow morning.
It’s a “root for the underdog” mindset. They view Israel as the strong established power so to find an “underdog” they choose to view the Muslems as the downtrodden and the oppressed because they need someone, anyone, to get behind so that they can feel they are good people for supporting the oppressed.
ca: Yeah, but doing what is actually right isn’t even Shogeg.
If one knows it’s wrong and one follows it, one is still Chayav a Korban. This is an explicit Gemara in Horiyos (2b).
PBA: I’ve also seen those who end up alone and unmarried for far too long because they were too concerned about their parents’ wishes.
Mod 29: Really? People have seen it? People have taken blood tests before, reviewed the samples, watched the pigeon thing, then taken another blood test and seen the lack of disease?
Or maybe people have seen someone sick looking sick, seen a charlatan kill a pigeon on his stomach, and then seen the guy look better. The placebo effect is a powerful thing.
YYBC: Yeah, and in that article Dr. Rosner proves that it is a complete fake. I didn’t quote him because there are reasons not to cite him, but he certainly doesn’t agree with the side that it works. And if the source is a Gemara all the more reason not to do it. I believe R’ Avraham Ben HaRambam’s Lashon on someone who follows the Gemara’s refuos is “Damav B’Rosho”.
The earliest Jewish source for the pigeon cure is in the Divrei Yitzchak in 1896 where he mentions that people do it.
The oldest actual source is the classic occult/magic textbook by Frances Barrett called The Magus, or Celestial Intelligencer, published in 1801. He describes the same “cure” using a duck.
(That totally makes this Darchei Emori, by the way. You’re welcome, DY.)
A Reuters article from 2004:
Egyptians unable to afford drugs that cost
eight times the average annual wage are resorting to a bogus ritual with
live pigeons to try to cure a serious liver disease, doctors said on
Wednesday.
The alternative treatment for hepatitis C emerged about a year ago and
has become increasingly popular, they said. The ritual is not
traditional and its origins are a mystery.
“The treatment involves removing the feathers from the backside of a
pigeon and holding it on the patient’s navel until the bird dies,” said
Mona Abu-Zekry, a specialist in infectious diseases.
Practitioners say the birds die after sucking the virus into their own
bodies. Abu-Zekry said they secretly choke the birds to death while
holding them against their patients.
“It’s a fallacy. The people doing this are trying to make money from
people who don’t know any better,” she said.
Egypt suffers one of the world’s highest hepatitis C infection rates,
the doctors said. The virus, which is spread by contact with infected
blood, affects about 14 percent of the population and can cause liver
failure and cancer.
Soheir Sheir, a former head of internal medicine at Ain Shams University
in Cairo, said the cost of a 24-week course to treat hepatitis C was
45,000 Egyptian pounds ($7,323).
The United Nations Development Program’s figure for Egyptians’ average
annual income was 5,538 pounds in 2001.
Mods: Can we stop Joseph’s lie that the prenup creates a Get Meuseh? The Tshuvah he quoted as his source clearly said it doesn’t.
Taamei Minhagim brings it down (in the back of the Sefer with a bunch of other Refuos). Some claim it works. Others claim to have shown how the trick is accomplished and how it doesn’t really heal anyone. It is important to note that other cultures use the same “treatment” for other diseases, so that lends credence to the fakery Tzad.
streek: Stepping on cut nails is a Gemara. Pashtus is there’s no problem with a trash. A landfill is just as gone as the toilet.
It’s not sitting between two women. It’s walking between them. It causes forgetfulness. Horiyos 13b (putting on 2 pieces of clothing same source).
lesschumras: Meh. The numbers don’t matter. The concept is true. That’s the problem with self-identification.
PBA: DaMoshe basically answered your question. “MO” Rabbis won’t think their “Hashkafic” advice is Halachically binding and will often only give it B’Toras Eitzah Tovah.
Joseph: I have to review some things in Hilchos Kesubos. I thought that the Minhag nowadays is that it’s assumed that the man was Mochel Maaseha Yadeha but still gives Mezonos.
This statement: “S”A doesn’t obligate a husband to provide his wife mezonos to reach “her living expectations”, especially when he cannot afford it.” is against a B’feirush Gemara.
And, according to you, why doesn’t a Kesubah create a Get Meuseh? The whole reason is to penalize him if he gives a Get. That’s a B’feirush Gemara.
Joseph: False. It’s B’feirush in Kesubos. V’hi Beulas Ba’al.
Joseph: Mezonos is never about what he earns. It’s about what she is entitled to. And being entitled to $55K can make sense, depending on where she is used to living. (For example, if she grew up on the Upper West Side, $55K is probably far below her living expectations.) In theory the Chiyuv Mezonos should be determined on a case-by-case basis. But then there will always be fighting so they came up with a blanket sum that will almost always be above the minimum and yet not be so large as to be useless anyway.
Joseph: First of all, R’ Elyashiv did not say it makes a Get Meuseh. He said it shouldn’t be done Lechatchilah because of the Shittos that hold it’s Meuseh. And why are you thinking the $55K is after-tax. Presumably she has to pay taxes on that money, no? So it makes sense.
Oh, and I looked up R’ Elyashiv’s T’shuvah today. He said that Lechatchilah such things shouldn’t be done. He didn’t say it creates a Get Meuseh.
I believe R’ Willig will not be your Mesader Kiddushin unless you have signed a prenup. That’s pretty much a Psak.
PBA: I strongly disagree. There are certainly those who wouldn’t care. But I would guess about 80% (maybe a little more) of those in top Shiurim listen to any Psak from their Rosh Yeshivah (or community Rav).
ca: Certainly dancing without music is one of the Nihugei Aveilus during Sefirah.
ca: “Issur on listening to music”? It’s a Minhag. And a relatively recent one. And this was how the Minhag developed. That’s the end of it. (By the way, some Chassidim are Noheg to listen to slow music during Sefirah for this reason.)
PBA: To be fair, your anger is misplaced. He used the word “Rabbis” before the whole list of names, implying that he was referring to all of them as Rabbi.
Joseph: I don’t know where you live, but 50K is pretty middle-class in NYC.
I’ll have to go over Hilchos Kesubos, but I feel like I recall that that Rama was rejected. I think most assume he is Chayav in Mezonos until the Get is given.
R’ Asher Weiss is certainly not “MO”.
And I’m not sure why all of this is even relevant. I have to think this out, but generally a person can pretty much volunteer any monetary Shibud he wants on himself. I do not see any reason why stating that “in circumstance X I will give my wife $Y” is invalid and what it has to do with the Get. It may be that he is defining “circumstance X” as “if my wife asks for a Get and I don’t give it”. But I cannot see what that has to do with a Get Meuseh. A person made a Shibud on himself. Like I said, I have to look into this more, but Al Regel Achas that’s what I would say.
ca and Joseph: This is so backwards it’s hilarious (and I say this with the utmost respect; it’s a mark on what Frum society is looking at, not either of you personally). The reason the Minhag developed not to listen to music is from the fact that music leads to dancing and dancing at Simchas is Assur during Sefirah. And yet the issue you guys are discussing about being at a wedding is because there’s music there!
To answer Joseph’s question, all of the major Poskim of the last generation allowed it. The most famous (and Lomdush) of the reasons is R’ Moshe’s T’shuvah, which is OC 1:167, I think. Maybe 157?
LF: The basic Sevara is that if you say Hallel, it’s not a day for Nihugei Aveilus.
Joseph: False. This is also a Gemara in Kesubos that a woman willingly forgoes some of her entitlements as long as she is happily married. Once she isn’t, she can demand what she deserves. The $150 a day is determined to be 1) about the same value that the Nachalas Shivah mentions for Mezonos in his Sefer and 2) about the same as what is considered a median middle-class income, i.e. what she is entitled to.
Joseph: Akuperma is describing the prenup perfectly. Learn Kesubos. It’s not penalizing anyone. It’s just a legal contract that the husband will pay Mezonos until the Get is given, which is Halachic requirement. There is no such requirement for a wife who refuses a Get. She would be a Moredes and Beis Din would waive her Kesuba. You don’t need a legal document enforcing that.
“And additionally it mandates using a beit din that has a reputation for issuing decisions that are based on popular feminist views and follow secular law over halacha when the two differ.”
This statement is false on several counts. First of all, it does not mandate using the BDA. It mandates pre-agreeing on a Beis Din before the marriage. It just so happens that most people who use a prenup agree on the BDA. Secondly, your statement that the BDA follows secular law over Halachah is absurd Motzi Shem Ra and I’m disgusted that the mods let it through. If you have a source for that, bring it. Otherwise, maybe call them and ask for Mechilah.
DY: I’ve been quoting that for years. R’ Moshe and R’ Shlomo Zalman both say something similar.
Of course, the response everyone gives is “then why does everyone always use all the Zomet stuff for police and hospitals if it accomplishes nothing?”
To which I say that if these things need to be done on Shabbos anyway, it can’t hurt.
akuperma: Essentially, all the premup is is a legally-binding agreement that the husband continues to pay her bills until the Get is given. All it does is give the Kesuba legal teeth, which it doesn’t contain in America.
Joseph: The logical comparison (which is also made by anti-Semites) is that “because Orthodox Rabbi X was arrested for child molestation, all Orthodox Jews ritually molest children”.
edited
I was told that R’ Elyashiv did not hold that the RCA prenup is Assur. I haven’t seen the Tshuvah inside, but apparently there is a whole story behind it.
Pashtus is that there is nothing wrong with the prenup (all it really contains is an agreement to go to a certain Beis Din in case of divorce, usually, but not necessarily, the BDA) and that if everyone signed it we would have almost no Agunos of cases of recalcitrant husbands.
DY: R’ Eliyahu Ben Haim
Kastner was listening to the Zionist regime? That’s not from Brisk. That’s straight from Stormfront or Brother Nathanael.
DY: What would give you that impression? If gluten is what defines Chimutz, it makes tremendous sense for anything totally gluten-free to necessarily be a different Min.
The Kosher Switch has exactly one legitimate Haskama. It’s the same one they had 7 years ago. It’s probably the only one they’ll ever get. They should just learn to accept that and not make up more.
HaKatan: To your claim that they Daven for/about the Medinah instead of the Geulah.
Tzara’as Batim only applies in Eretz Yisrael. Nothing to do with regular Tzara’as.
I always found it Pashut that it would take an incredible Middas Achzarius to declare someone a Metzorah Bizman HaZeh.
DY: Who’s disagreeing? We have no Mesorah on gluten-free oats.
HaKatan: Read the Tefillah L’Shalom HaMedinah and tell me where people aren’t Davening for the Geulah.
Oh, and trivia question for you: What’s the MO/RZ standard greeting on Yom Ha’atzma’ut?
RebYidd: What if it was blue chocolate?
Joseph: Try reading “A Million Jews to Save” for a potentially different side of the story. I haven’t done the research to know who’s right. But I think you haven’t either. And even if you have, there are still plenty of people who quote neo-Nazi propaganda on the history without knowing the facts. Honestly, it makes me really sad.
The OP made an assumption. Are we sure that assumption is correct?
LF: Oh! You’re right! R’ Schachter never thought of such a thing! He didn’t realize that Ben Gurion was a Rasha. After all these decades, you’ve finally pointed out what slipped his mind. Thank you so much!
Seriously, give it a rest. We know your Shittah. That doesn’t mean you should mock those with another.
If he’s not keeping Shabbos it’s not a Shailah of someone going off, it’s someone who is off already. Which may not change things, but it definitely is a factor.