Sam2

divrei hayamim: Explanation, please.

newbee: What is relevant from the beginning of Avodah Zarah here?

On a side note, the impetus of this law was a woman who refused to do the photography for two women getting married. It’s fairly Pashut that there is no Issur on two non-Jewish women to get married. Ma’aseh Eretz Mitzrayim isn’t part of Giluy Arayos.

akuperma: Those against the law aren’t anti-semites. They’re anti-Christian.

mw13: Most Poskim do not hold they always were. Most quote R’ Moshe of Havu D’lo L’hosif

And his point was that since Chassidus was eventually accepted, we should be able to accept that other Minhagim can change.

LF: There is a different between basic safety and something much more advanced–which every community needs, not every house. It honestly terrifies me that you are attempting to convince people that having a smoke detector is not a basic safety requirement.

EretzHaK: There is what to discuss about its objectionability even once we agree it never sought to condone any sort of homosexual activity whatsoever. The letter that the Roshei Yeshivah circulated essentially said the same thing as the event, though much more toned-down. Namely, we have to respect and sympathize with those with these Taavos but can in no way condone the actions.

EretzHaK: Pretending to be a Baal Nefesh is an Issur of Gaavah/Yuhara, no?

DY: Right. Hence my claim that there is a lot of misinformation going on about YU.

EretzHaK: False. It in no way sought to legitimize homosexuality. You can read the transcripts; they are readily available online. It was meant to be speeches by 4 people with same-sex attraction who talk about their struggles still being Frum. The impetus was to show people that someone can be only attracted to men and yet still live a completely Frum life. It in no way wanted to legitimize any type of homosexual activity whatsoever.

mw13: There never was a “gay tolerance” club at YU. There was a “tolerance club” whose stated goals were related to being nicer to everyone you disagree with, not gays in particular. When the one guy who really pushed the club graduated the club disbanded.

HaKatan: Once again, nebulous statements don’t further a discussion. We can talk about what R’ Soloveitchik “forgot” and try to figure out Pshat, or you can just quote personal attacks and hide behind them. And if it’s about Zionism, then that’s an old Machlokes and there’s no real way to take it further.

And yes, I do not think there is anything inherently Assur about an event/speech/whatever where both men and (almost-always appropriately-dressed) women will both be in attendance. And if singles are meeting in a Kosher environment, all the better.

Joseph: That’s been my point since the day I got here. “MO” doesn’t really exist. It’s an excuse that people who want to say “I’m better than you” use towards people who do some things slightly differently.

If you ask any YU Rosh Yeshivah or respected “MO” Rav what the real ideological differences are between YU and Lakewood, the answer you will get is “nothing” (or attitude towards the Medinah, I guess). There are some practical differences in how Lechatchilah getting a job is or how much we gain from secular studies or whatever, but the underlying ideology is the same Torah.

A lot of more liberal Conservadox-ish Jews want to get rid of the Minhag of Kitniyos. It’s really weird, honestly.

iyb: Pashtus is according to most there is still the Kiyum D’Oraisa on the D’Rabbanan Chiyuv to do it Al HaKos.

There is a very minority Shittah in the Rishonim that Kiddush (and Havdalah!) Al HaKos is D’Oraisa. See Nazir 4a (maybe 5a) and the Rishonim there.

YYBC: Why would you mention that?

Mods, I move that the Mesirah blog be stricken from this (and all future) records in the CR.

maskim

HaKatan: Fine. Find me a Frum teacher or donor or board member who thinks learning Mada is more of a Kiyum than learning Torah. Again, you won’t. It doesn’t exist.

Rabbi Lamm’s book comes the closest to mentioning such a possibility. Do you know what Rabbi Lamm does 15 hours a day now? He sits and learns Torah. That’s it. He learns. He values Torah much more. He just explains why other things can have value also.

The events at YU are not “all mixed”. There are certainly many mixed events. However, none of those are obligatory and nothing is mandated. Someone can have a full college career at YU if he wants (and still go to interesting extracurricular speeches and stuff) and never speak with a girl. There is no “mixing” in the way you want to call it. What there is is an option for mixed things for those who feel that it is okay/acceptable. I guarantee you we can find major Poskim outside of the YU world who think it’s Muttar to attend a speech/presentation/booksale where there are members of the opposite gender present. It’s not a YU Chiddush.

And no, I don’t care for your anecdotal stories about people who may have called themselves “MO” and yet still did Issurim. No more than providing a story about a “Yeshivish” person who did an Issur would say something about all Yeshivish people. Show me where you see that “MO” has a systematic belief in what you claim it does–namely, that they value Mada and modernity equal to or above Torah. Until you show that, all you have is a lot of hateful hot air being spewed at perfectly Ehrlich Jews.

Your refusal to accept that there are legitimate Shittos of Zionism within Halachah is a separate issue, but less severe. At least you’re not making stuff up.

And again, unsourced comments from major Torah figures don’t help anything. I don’t know what Rav Shach said about R’ Yoshe Ber. If you want to quote it and discuss what it’s in reference to, that might lead to a conversation.

YYBC: Of course Hashem is involved. But you’re ignoring the massive middle ground of those who weren’t necessarily supposed to die but through their own negligence put themselves in Sakanah by not having standard prevention.

LF: You’re being ridiculous. Beyond ridiculous. If a Sakanah didn’t exist in the times of Chazal or Matan Torah we can ignore it? So there’s nothing wrong with playing in traffic, right? It’s not Assur. There was no Sakanah playing in the middle of the highway 2000 years ago. So why is there now? Oh, right. There are trucks and cars now that will kill you.

HKBH gave us life-saving treatments and devices for a reason. You’re a Kafui Tov for ignoring them. Honestly. If that’s what you believe stop taking medicines that they didn’t have in Chazal’s time. After all, there’s no Chiyuv for you to take them, right?

edited by request

Joseph: I don’t think there is such a thing as an “MO” institution. YU is referred to as the “flagship institution of Modern Orthodoxy” by many, but again, you don’t have people inside YU declaring “we are YU”. I’ve been in YU and I’ve been in Yeshivish Yeshivos. As have many friends of mine. The hock in all places is the same. The same Hashkafic spectra, the same discussions, just with different impetuses depending on the place.

I will grant that many use the term “Modern Orthodox” as an excuse to try and get out of Halachos that they find difficult. But that by no means applies to most. Most just listen to their Rabbis, like any other stream of Orthodoxy, and most Rabbis Pasken out of the Mishnah Brurah, like any other stream of Orthodoxy.

Someone I respect a lot once explained the difference between YU and Lakewood as how public the hobbies are. Guys at both places might have a collection of Star Wars books. The YU guy keeps his on his shelf; the Lakewood guy in a drawer.

I think this is indicative of the differences, but far from the cause. There certainly are different outlooks. The main difference, as many say, is how much people think they can learn from the outside world as opposed to how much it should be avoided. Everyone agrees there is what to be learned from the outside world. Everyone agrees there are things in the outside world to be avoided. The difference is where the risk/reward line is drawn. For the YU guy, the hobbies are on the shelf–he’s okay with his interactions with the outside world being part of his life. For the Lakewood guy, everything is hidden in the drawer–he only learns from the outside world when absolutely necessary.

R’ Schachter is famous for saying that the difference between YU and Lakewood is how far the concept of “Daas Torah” is extended.

HaKatan: You have been saying things like your last line for years, yet your only examples of such are a high schooler making a crude joke and an assumption that all “MO” people go to Broadway shows. At some point, put up or shut up. Explain what you think that “MO” does that changes the Torah or stop spewing your hatred.

Joseph: You should look up the Rama.

Hashta Behemtan…

LK: Definitive statements that violate Ikkarei Emunah. Questions, by definition, cannot violate Ikkarei Emunah because they are not actual beliefs. Refusing to accept answers can be Kfirah though.

CA: No non-definitive statement is heretical.

kj chusid: Please define the “MO Shittah” before you call it ridiculous.

ca: Still not Kfirah. Just not proper. Or really bad. But not heretical.

LF: I’m sorry, that’s still just foolish. You don’t find flush toilets in Chumash and Chazal and Achronim. Should we not have them? Would we consider someone who keeps a chamber pot equally “civilized”? Would there be anything wrong with someone who kept rocks in his bathroom for you to clean yourself with instead of toilet paper? Would that not disturb you?

The world has made millions of advances in health and safety over the millennia. It’s moronic to ignore them just because they didn’t exist at Matan Torah.

LF: Not having a smoke detector is *not* enough of a Hishtadlus. That should be clear. Yeah, fires might still happen. But you’re a heck of a lot more likely to survive it if they do.

Ah, isn’t it so nice to be able to make nebulous comments and write off thousands of Frum Jews?

DY: It’s a good comparison. The question is where the cut-off is. And I honestly have no idea where to put it.

Let me give a perfect example of something I said. Someone told me over Shabbos he read a letter written by a Jew who was in jail because he broke the law (no blood libel, no nothing, it was Yadua he actually broke the law) and wrote a letter wondering why God put him in this test of being in jail.

That clearly crosses the line between accepting personal responsibility and finding a meaning in things.