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PAA: Are you familiar with R’ Moshe’s T’shuvah on the subject?
yy: That was a mod edit later. The URL has “national”, which was the original title.
yy: Avodah Zarah has an Issur Hana’ah, so it’s Muttar to destroy because it has no value to the owner. Something that is destructive (to others) but has value cannot be destroyed by a random person; you have to take the owner to Beis Din.
chochom-ibber: T’fillah B’tzibbur is more important than being on time for Seder. If your husband can’t understand that, then it is clear he is not learning properly.
Destroying one’s own property is an Issur of Bal Tashchis. If a person’s property is causing them more harm than good (e.g. wasting too much time on the internet) then presumably it is Muttar for one to break their own property.
Unless he paid for it with your money, it is Assur to break it. It is Assur to damage someone else’s property, even your child’s.
YOSEF (Joseph, right? This has to be Joseph): Kol HaLomed Shelo Al M’nas La’asos Raui Lo Shelo Ba L’olam. Her priorities are quite straight. As are R’ Moshe Feinstein’s.
DY: Intriguing. I need to have a discussion with the authors of my high school civics textbook…
HaLeiVi: I believe R’ Moshe has a T’shuvah about that too (might even be the same T’shuvah).
PBA and redleg are slightly incorrect. Only the first stanza is our “national anthem”. The Star-Spangled Banner is an extended poem (the tune came later), which is quite beautiful and everyone should read and appreciate it. But the anthem is just one stanza.
And yes, I know all of the words to the anthem.
Show him R’ Moshe’s T’shuvah about this precise issue.
PAA: Tosfosim all over Shas point out that there is a Shittah that doesn’t hold of Dayo even when the Kal V’chomer is Muphrach.
ahirsch: If you want to donate the meat that’s probably considered a purpose and it should be fine in that case.
Talmidim of R’ Moshe have said that that T’shuvah was referring to baseball, where deaths were more common than they are nowadays (though they still happen once in a tremendously long while). I don’t recall that T’shuvah precisely, but I do remember that R’ Ovadiah ( Yabia Omer 1 YD 27 or 26, I think) has a line proving that it’s Muttar to enter a Safek Sakanah for Parnassah.
DY: Being well-respected by most of the Gedolim should say something, though. And those that were against him were mostly because he was at JTS, not because of himself personally.
old man: I did say he was a tremendous Talmid Chacham who was well-respected by his peers. I didn’t feel a need to go into any detail. As a funny anecdote, before I had seen his Sefarim I was once in a Chareidi Gadol’s house and noticed a blue Sefer with duct tape covering just the bottom half of the binding. A few years later I realized that that was him covering the JTS logo on the Tosefta Kipshuta.
I like this title.
ben: R’ Schachter holds it should only be done in an absolutely B’dieved situation.
I wouldn’t have made a thread like this because we all know where YCT stands and those who refuse to acknowledge that are just in denial. Beating them over the head with more Conservative things they do won’t convince anyone.
Since this thread exists, though, I would recommend, First Marriage Between Two “Orthodox” Rabbis. Or something along those lines.
PBA: I don’t know enough about Heshel to comment. I know the Frum philosophers don’t like him because they think he wasn’t Frum and the non-Frum philosophers don’t like him because they think he was. I do know, however, that Shaul Lieberman was Frum his entire life and was a tremendous Talmid Chacham who was well-respected by his peers, even if they strongly disagreed with his attempted Agunah solution.
DY: I’m saying that “more of a Rabbi” implies did more for their Smicha.
Dash: I don’t think that’s a problem. The Achronim point out that it’s only something that could break (or break you) if it falls and you would be worried about it and it would hurt your concentration.
DY: I’m currently trying to think out the way along the lines of what the Achronim bring down that if you see a Sefer on the ground and it bothers you you can stop your Shmoneh Esrei to pick it up. There should be some way to make this situation similar to that, but you’re right, it needs some creativity.
PBA: Be fair, YCT Smicha is certainly more rigorous than JTS is nowadays…
DY: You’re interrupting your Shmoneh Esrei to write in a Siddur. Sure, it’s to improve your next Shmoneh Esrei, but I’m not sure that that allows you to be Mafsik in this one.
It sounds like an interesting plan. I’m just not sure if it’s Muttar.
DY: You can get a fair result in court. And if you can’t, that’s probably because a “fair” result is not in your favor. A person can only be Dan L’nafsheih (and that’s what this case is-you want a Heter for an emotional abuse in order to get a result in court) if they know for sure they should win in court and just want to save the time for both themselves and Beis Din. Well, if they can’t win in court, then it probably means they didn’t know for sure they would win in court…
PBA: Even if one party is being obnoxious how does that excuse being evil back?
DY: I want to keep it in the discussion. If someone comes with a major Posek backing them, fine. But other than that the assumption has to be that they have zero right whatsoever to withhold. Rarities are exceptions that prove the rule.
Wolf: I use that to both identify who I am speaking to and so that people can have an easier time figuring out which post I am responding to. While a post may technically be responding to one person, it is clearly intended for everyone to read.
DY: There are general rules. Maybe there are weird exceptions, but as a general rule it’s never acceptable to withhold giving/receiving a Get. (And, certainly by the time we hear about it they’re in the wrong. There is (almost) never a reason for a Get being withheld for more than 3-6 months, let alone years like in the cases we hear about.)
splenda: The cases where it is okay to refuse to give/accept a Get are where the marriage is not clearly over. For example, one side wants to get divorced but it still willing to go to counseling. So then it’s acceptable to withhold (for a short period only) until they see if counseling can help at all.
DY: I know, I was just telling you it exists.
Splenda (Joseph): That is ridiculous. Rabbeinu Gershom didn’t give women the right to abuse their husbands. People were giving Gittin too early without their wives acknowledging the marriage is over, so Rabbeinu Gershom said you need the agreement of both parties. When the marriage is clearly over (e.g. one sided says that there is 0 chance whatsoever for reconciliation) and the other side refuses to acknowledge that, then withholding the Get (or refusing to receive one) is chaining your spouse to you unfairly and unnecessarily, which is a very abusive action.
DY: I do know that ORA (whatever you think of them) has had cases in the past where they campaigned against women who were refusing Gittin from their husbands. Also, the Rabbanut keeps lists and they have “Mesarvot”. I don’t know if it’s a technical Halachic term, but the cases exist and these men are just as chained as any woman who can’t remarry.
mdd: By your source, it should be Muttar to wear pants if one feels uncomfortable and/or scared by wearing a skirt. That’s not the source.
wanderingchana: Life is not a race to collect Mitzvah-points. You are judged by who you could have been compared to who you actually were. It’s not about time to catch up or anything like that. So it doesn’t matter who gets an earlier or later start. It matters who you make yourself into.
charlie: We do that out of respect for the Shittah of the Bahag. For some reason, we respect his opinion even K’negged the Gemara. All of the explanations as to why have something to do with the fact that he had a direct traceable chain from the Amoraim so even if he had Shittos outside Shas, they were still from Chazal. If any other Rishon said such a thing against the Gemara, we would reject them or at least only treat it as a weak Chumra, not Halachah. (And even Ashkenazim hold that a woman can Mei’Ikar HaDin.)
icant: I clearly said that Hashem takes everything in your life into account. So, presumably, if one does real T’shuvah HKBH goes pretty easy on you in such a case. The fact is, the Rambam and Gemara say that full T’shuvah is impossible in such a case.
DY: So, basically what I said. 🙂
DY: Ah, but what happens when someone with that Mesorah claims that it is integral to Yiddishkeit and that you are missing something important without it?
It’s the best imitation Rashi out there. So much so that I’m often not convinced it’s not Rashi.
We were designed to sleep at night and stay awake during the day. We have changed that by creating perpetual day (via electric lights).
DY: That can’t be right. Damage of less than a Shaveh Prutah is still damage and still exists. I don’t have R’shus to be Mazik you less than a Shaveh Prutah.
icant: It’s nice to know that Gemaras and Rambams are wrong and dangerous. See Rambam Hilchos T’shuvah 4:3 and look up his Mekoros in the Nosei Keilim there.
There’s a list of a bunch. I forget where they are. Shabbos 31 jumps to mind but I don’t think that’s right. A few examples are where you steal but are unable to return it because you don’t know who you stole from, and similar things. I think the Rambam lists them off in Hilchos T’shuvah as well.
DY: I could find you a T’shuva where R’ Moshe was Mattir shaving. But that’s a separate issue anyway. We can know truths like that because we can ask his Talmidim. Unfortunately, since the time of Chazal we have lost the unbroken chain to Sinai. (In the sense that every word was passed on orally; obviously we can trace from Rebbe to Talmid all the way back to MRA”H, but what a Rebbe taught a Talmid drastically changed after Chasimas HaGemara, which is my point.) Our chain goes from Chazal straight to us, with the Rishonim and Achronim being our ability to understand the words of Chazal. That is my point. So if someone claims a “Mesorah” with no Shemetz of a hint in Chazal or in those explaining Chazal, then how can they claim that “Mesorah” goes back to Sinai?
RF: That’s what the Shulchan Aruch says (14:4). The Achronim (I think even the M”B) explain that because in his time, Seforim were both incredibly valuable and easy to damage. Thus, it wasn’t worth it (the Tzitz Eliezer applies this to other people’s Taleisim now that we know about germs, even though the Mechaber is explicit that a Tallis is okay) so we assume that someone won’t let without explicit permission. Many Poskim nowadays say it is okay to borrow Seforim without permission because they are much more durable nowadays and less valuable, so people are more inclined to let someone use them. It would take a very cruel person to not allow someone to lose your money to save his own life. Thus, we should assume that he would want you to eat. Why that logic doesn’t hold true is the question.
splenda: It’s not. HKBH judges our whole lives in perspective, but the Gemara explicitly says that it’s not possible to do T’shuvah for these things. (And, what’s worse, it seems quite impossible for the concept of a Tinok Shenishba to exist by most Bein Adam L’chaveiro things, unless your parents are Chamas or hate-teaching societies.)
DY: I disagree. Informed Orthodoxy, for the most part, has rejected them, mainly because of people like R’ Schachter, R’ Twersky, and Rabbi Wieder attacking them from Mekoros (the Yeshivish community might have rejected them outright but they never really had any association with them). The only people who accept them are those who already agreed with them or those who don’t know any better.
HaLeiVi: That would only be if we Pasken Yeiush Shelo MIda’as. SInce we don’t, you would have to know.
I assume that one of the reasons people say Rashi doesn’t actually hold what he seems to say is because what happened to Nicha Leih L’inish L’me’evad Mitzvah B’mamonei.
DY: I mean, the best I can think of is a Yesh Koach to impress upon people how much you really need to worry about other people’s property. But that’s weak.
DY: It would have to function under the rubric of Yesh Koach…, I would think. It’s not so clear that Rashi actually ever held that way because, frankly, it’s a very tough Shittah to digest. There are those who say B’feirush, though, that if you can’t pay back then you can’t save yourself (I think the Meiri or the Shittah Mekubetzes there in Bava Kama 60 quotes them). It’s very difficult to understand. If you’ve seen a good P’shat, by all means please share.