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HaLeiVi: The Aruch Hashulchan says the same thing. He has a great line in there too. “Chazal are smarter than them.”
Shlishi: The point is that the same potential health benefits that could exist with MBP exist with doing it with a sterile tube. The reason we still do it is because Chazal were Kovea it as a Sakanah and therefore we have to treat it as such even if modern medicine says it isn’t (much like the Tzitz Eliezer’s Shittah on these types of issues).
Shlishi: What’s the health benefit to do Metzitzah with the mouth?
OOM: Eh. That was a legitimate not-trolling question. If he refuses to accept any response then I’ll stop talking or just reply snidely.
For some people, sure. Life is about balance. There’s a limit. And that limit is different for everyone. Having a Kavua Seder in Shakespeare is bad. Picking up one off the shelf when you need to chill isn’t. It’s a more productive way to relax than many others. (I don’t know how I view forcing high school students to learn these things. On the one hand, they are useful and important. On the other hand, there are other far more important things out there they should learn.)
Shlishi: First of all, quote properly. That’s not R’ Hutner’s Rebbe but the Rebbe of the author of the T’shuvos Pachad Yitzchak. And he is not the only opinion on the matter. Several Achronim are Chocheich L’hachmir by killing lice on Shabbos.
Bubka: Hamlet, for example, might give you a greater understanding of the depth of greed and some people’s willingness to do anything to get what they want. Macbeth carries a similar lesson, among others.
BaalHabooze: And maybe one shouldn’t sit in a Sukkah either because it’s Assur to sit in the Azarah? Come on. A Sukkah isn’t even Tashmishei Kedushah. It’s Tashmishei Mitzvah. Your Retzuos Shel T’fillin have more Kedushah than your Sukkah.
Bubka: There is much to be gained from secular literature. Not nearly as much as from Torah, so reading secular literature should be kept to a minimum (there is a reason HKBH gave us bathrooms). But there is tremendous Chochmah to be taken from the Goyim too, if you know where to look.
Shlishi: I believe R’ Schachter has said that it is a very serious issue because if Metzitzah is only for the health benefits then it should be an Issur D’Oraisa Bizman Hazeh on Shabbos because our doctors say there is no Sakanah if you don’t do it. (Maybe one could think like the Tzitz Eliezer and say that if Chazal declare something a Sakanah that it stays a Sakanah L’olam Va’ed even to be Mechallel Shabbos over it even if our doctors say there’s no Sakanah, but that is very, very Shver). Pashtus in many Poskim is that it’s only because it’s a Sakanah if you don’t do Metzitzah. Which makes what to do on Shabbos a very serious Shaila.
Nisht: I was talking in a broader case and not even about Metzitzah. And it’s not so true that people know not to do MBP when they have an open sore. I remember a Rebbe of mine (who is very, very Chareidi) told us that when he looked into this 30+ years ago (this issue has been around for 200 years now) a lot of the Mohalim he spoke to knew scarily little about germs and transmissions of diseases and stuff like that and that of course they would do MBP even if they were sick. Hopefully the one good thing that comes out of this whole controversy is that all Mohalim will hopefully know not to do it if they are even the least bit sick or if they have an open sore.
Zalman: I don’t know if we apply that everywhere, but it is a very good point.
PBA: If (completely hypothetically) it could be proven that MBP carries with it serious health risks would you still recognize the rights of those MInhagim?
TMM: You ate shoe polish and blimp rubber? Something tells mean that’s a great Siman for a quick trip to the hospital.
2scents: I honestly don’t know. And I hope I never find out. I’d still eat chicken anyway (probably), but I would feel very guilty about it.
PBA: Yes, everyone has it. But it’s far more dangerous to transfer it to an open wound then it is through normal contact, certainly to someone that young.
DY: I said that identical thing (whether MBP was Davka or just the best way in Chazal’s time) here a few months back.
ygmonsey: Not “all the Gedolim” said it. It was a Machlokes. He felt that he needed to very strongly show which way he held.
WIY: If a Goy is Assur then a Goy is Assur. An Eved K’naani isn’t a Jew. He doesn’t have Kedushas Yisrael. And yes, Tevi was a Goy and a Talmid Chacham. That doesn’t give him Kedushas Yisrael.
Also, a Sukkah built by a Nochri is Kasher. How does that fit with this? Halachah isn’t about “feelings” or who “belongs” in a Sukkah. Halachah tells us who belongs in a Sukkah. It tells us who is allowed in a Sukkah and who isn’t. If you want to determine that based on who it feels right if they “belong” in there, then Reform Judaism allows you to determine Halachah like that. But last time I checked, in Orthodox Judaism, Halachah tells us how we should feel and not the other way around. Halachah tells us who “belongs” in a Sukkah. Our feelings don’t tell Halachah who “belongs”.
Iced: I never said that was the Busha. The Busha was that it would imply that Rabban Gamliel violated the Kedushah of his Sukkah, which is ridiculous. There’s nothing to violate because a Sukkah has no Kedushah.
WIY: Look, this “Inyan” is an absolute Busha. Or are you really going to try and tell me that Rabban Gamliel “desecrated the holiness of a Sukkah” or something like that by allowing his Eved K’na’ani in? It’s ridiculous and it’s against our Mesorah. If someone wants to say Al Pi Nistar that the idea means something, fine. But don’t bring it into this world.
Iced: And those holy Achronim are arguing with the Gemara and our Mesorah. It’s fine. Poskim have some things Al Pi Kaballah all the time. The Kaf Hachayim does it more than others. But saying Ein Lanu Eisek B’nstaros if a valid response and, in this case, Al Pi Nigleh the discussion doesn’t even begin.
2scents: Not in the Kapporos itself. In the shipping to and storing of dozens of thousands of chickens to Meah Shearim. That’s not possible without the Tza’ar Ba’alei Chayim.
WIY: Okay, I’ll be safe in violating this “Inyan” (whatever that means) along with Rabban Gamliel. That’s fine by me. (I don’t actually plan on having any Goyim in my Sukkah this year, but there’s definitely no problem with it.)
And the whole thing doesn’t make sense. “Extreme holiness”? A Sukkah is Tashmishei Mitzvah, not Tashmishei Kedushah. That’s almost like the Chabad “S’vara” that a Sukkah is so holy that it would be inappropriate to sleep in it, therefore they don’t sleep in a Sukkah. It’s ridiculous and Mamash against Halachah. Ein Lanu Eisek B’nistaros. Hanistaros LaHashem Elokeinu V’haniglos Lanu Ulvaneinu Ad Olam.
Shein: And if the only way to do Kapporos is to treat them improperly then don’t do them with chickens (and yes, he said just last year that under the current conditions in Meah She’arim it should not be done with chickens). I could definitely hear a similar claim here. As long as animals are mistreated we should not buy meat because that promotes the mistreatment. It’s not an illegitimate argument.
It’s a Pele that the Pashut Minhag even in the biggest Mekomos Torah seems to be Lehakel on this. I have no idea why.
WIY: That’s ridiculous. It’s against a Mishnah. A Goy can enter a Sukkah. (And I very surprisingly heard a big Rav Mattir having a non-Jew over for a Yom Tov meal if he is in the process of converting. I honestly have no idea how that Heter is legitimate though.)
WIY: Only Egoz has the Gematria of Cheit. So not all nuts. Only walnuts, hazelnuts, and anything else that can legitimately be called an Egoz. Peanuts, for example, are fine. I don’t know if cashews fall under the catogry of “Egoz”.
Curiosity: Different S’vara. The Poskim say that it’s almost a given that you won’t have Kavana anyway. But here, we see that most of the time most people get it right.
147: Then you should have presented them as such and not as your own. And even so, I stand by what I said. If R’ Moshe himself didn’t mention it when he said that Chalav Stam (“Hacompanies’) counts as not being Chalav Shechalvo Akkum then no one else really has a right to come by later and say that you shouldn’t rely on this during the AY”T.
And the reason is pretty Mevuar. By Pas Palter there are two acceptable Minhagim. The Poskim just have a caveat that within the Meikil Minhag is included being Machmir during the AY”T. Here it is a question of whether this milk is included under the title of Chalav Shechalvo Akkum, which is always Assur to drink. Thus, by being “Machmir” on that during the AY”T one is either pointlessly buying different milk or admitting that he is Over an actual Issur D’rabannan all year round, Mah She’ein Kein in the case of Pas.
DY: I’m not aware of all the details. Can you actually show where a major Gadol has called him a Rasha and not just a Da’as Yachid?
You also make a very good point. I’ll retract my previous arguments about what we can prove and stuff. Not that I think they were necessarily incorrect (for all we know MBP actually did start in the time of the late RIshonim), but because they’re irrelevant.
Ready now: Being wrong doesn’t make you less smart. He starts from a different place and therefore gets different answers. I know G-d exists. Hawking doesn’t. Does that make me smarter than Hawking? Of course not. That would be absurd. There is a Brachah to be made on Chochmei Umos Ha’olam. Don’t deny what HKBH created just because you don’t like what Hawking believes.
(There is a famous story about a Talmid of R’ Chaim Soloveitchik who became a physicist and worked with Einstein. The quote attributed to him, I believe, is, “Einstein had a better Kop but R’ Chaim had a better Koach Hahesber.”)
I believe the Hebrew root Kaf Pei Reish would most accurately be translated as “to remove”.
PBA: He has a right to his opinions, even if he’s in the minority. I’ve sent him very strongly-worded letters in the past where I feel he said something that wasn’t P’shat, but I still have the same respect for him that I do any other Talmid Chacham. He is a Bar Hachi of having his opinions.
Mods, you really let those posts through? I know he’s controversial, but that’s downright disrespectful to a huge Talmid Chacham.
DY: I’m not saying that we have to. I’m just saying that if you want to convince anyone of anything you have to begin by agreeing on the same premises. The fact that MBP has been done for “thousands of years” is not one of those premises, even if it’s true.
Iced: Sure it does, especially if it wasn’t started B’peh until after Kabbalistic influence gained much more strenght. (Isn’t there something Al Pi Kaballah about the Mohel mixing the blood and the wine in his mouth or something?)
Iced: You can prove it was thousands of years old and can assume it wasn’t done with a sterile tube then. You cannot prove, however, that they didn’t use a straw or even just squeeze some blood out with their fingers.
147: You made up that Chumra. No one consumes Chalav Akkum. Everyone agrees that it’s Assur. Those who rely on R’ Moshe hold that Chalav Stam doesn’t count as Chalav Akkum. The Chumra in the Shulchan Aruch is not to eat Pas Palter, which is a Chumra that everyone should keep during the Aseres Y’mei T’shuvah (R’ Schachter says to be Machmir on that every Shabbos and Yom Tov as well).
iced: Presumably not. I’m just saying, if you are going to have an honest legal discourse on the subject to try and talk to someone who does not necessarily accept our Mesorah the way we do, then you can’t claim that we’ve been doing it for thousands of years because we can’t prove that it’s been done that way for thousands of years.
Iced: Those sources do not say anything about Metzitzah B’peh.
Iced: Can you prove that we’ve been doing MBP since Chazal (I’m not saying that we haven’t, just asking for a source)? It’s certainly not mentioned in the Gemara (not directly, at least). Aren’t the Rishonim the earliest source?
DovidM: I think most vegetarians (at least Frum ones) don’t eat meat because of the terrible way it is necessary to keep animals on massive Shechitah farms, an ethical issue that really didn’t exist in previous generations at all. (Very similar to how R’ Moshe Shternbuch last year said that the vast amount of chickens needed for Kapparos in such a small space makes it inherently Tza’ar Ba’alei Chayim.)
Hello: Don’t we say that these worms are Kosher anyway because they grew inside the fish?
Ignore them. There’s nothing else you can do.
WIY: Yes, but the earliest reference of MBP is much more recent. So, no matter how long we believe we’ve been doing it, for the sake of honest discourse that both sides will agree to the premises of you can’t claim that long.
That sounds very strange. The words aren’t M’akev in this situation anyway because they are clearly Asukin B’oso Ha’inyan.
Also, in your second case, the Kiddushin is completely Kosher. The Kesubah is just Passul so you would need to re-write a second Kesubah. There’s no reason at all to redo the Kiddushin. The Kesubah is not M’akev the Kiddushin in the slightest.
I do not know if any problems can arise from pointlessly redoing the Kiddushin, but in both cases it was unnecessary.
WIY: The Minchas Chinuch (I believe) points out that there is no Issur of Tza’ar Ba’alei Chayim when killing an animal (I presume that this has limits and it means that you kill in a humane way). He gets this from the Gemara of P’sik Reishei. He asks why it isn’t an issue of Tza’ar Ba’alei Chayim and answers that TB”C isn’t Shayach when you’re killing them, only if you’ll force them to live in pain.
TCG: I believe that the Star-K is accepted by almost everyone in America as well. (And by almost everyone I’m obviously not including those who only eat Heimishe Hashgachos.)
Truthsharer: Corn is actually more interesting. It’s because Koren in olde English meant grain and was a word interchangeably used with wheat. Thus, do to concerns for confusion B’nei Ashkenaz added corn to the list of things that aren’t Kitniyos.
(And now to be called an Apikores again: R’ Moshe has a famous T’shuvah where he explains why corn is Kitniyos but potatoes aren’t. He says because they had corn before the Minhag developed but they didn’t have potatoes because it was a New World vegetable. This, of course, is not quite true. Both corn and potatoes are New World crops. The difference is the name.)
Wolf: That is absolutely correct.
Bubka: It’s not only monetary. R’ Schachter always mentions that there’s an Issur to be Mazik someone else. Not just that if you do it you have to pay for it.
If the cat has an owner then you are being Mazik someone’s property.
LY: You can’t Daven in a bathroom either. (However, I could hear that there’s no Shomea K’oneh in a bathroom and therefore listening to a song that’s a T’fillah doesn’t count as making a T’fillah. However, that would then cause you trouble with the Issur of listening to music.)
Look, I apologize if my saying things straight offended some people. I actually used to have a whole long thing saved up to preface any time I ever pointed out that a major Posek was mistaken or didn’t know about something that I would cut-and-paste. But eventually it felt contrived and like I was faking an Anavah that I honestly don’t have. Look, sometimes you have to point things out. Otherwise you can’t learn. The Gemara says this. If you want to be a Talmid Chacham you have to be Kashe K’barzel. It is not ridiculous to say that Rashi didn’t know a language or know about the existence of rice.
HaLeiVi: He quotes individual words. It’s clear, though, that he didn’t understand Arabic or the Spanish Judeo-Arabic. That’s why he has a set of grammatical rules on Chumash that our grammar just doesn’t agree with. He only quotes Shlomo ibn Gabirol because he was the only of the grammarians who wrote in Hebrew. Rashi just didn’t have access to the works in other languages.