somejewiknow

@yankel-berel
there is a havtucheh that there will always be a place for the Jewish Nation to escape to in gulis.
the problem with your theorieticals is that they ignore he Torah.
We DO believe in hashguche prutis, so theoretical horrors don’t scare me, but the real horrors of the kofer religion called “Dati Leumi” DOES scare me.

@always_ask_questions

I never said “Z is bad because it is anti-religious”
I say zionism is bad because it rejects fundamentals of Yiddishkeit: moshiach, schar v’oesh, and the definition of “Klal Yisroel”.
By extension zionists also come to reject more fundamentals such as Torah min hashomayim, emina Bashem, and more.
These are heresies currently code to religious zionism and have nothing to do with their technical kiyim hamitzvos, just like their similar buddies Jews for J, it is heresy no matter how much shabbos they “keep”. They can preach “you must keep every one of the 613 and believe in yashke as moshiach”, and they will not be yidden, rather they are still tziyonim or notzrim or whatever word you want to call them.

@yankel-berel

You are invited to offer ANY pre-zionist (pre 1890) source in Shas or Poskim that forces a machlokes anywhere in the sugya of gezeiras hagulis generally and the application of the shulosh shevios specifically.

There IS a mochlokes in the gemureh about between R’ Zeira and R’ Yehuda, so that shikel daas between them is fair.

There are ALSO perhaps nuanced machlokesim about what exactly are the guidlines of the shulosh shevios, such as what is “aliyah k’choma”, etc, but poskim have resolved all if not most of those such that there is no machlokes. You are welcome to present somewhere you think there is valid machlokes in something if my understanding of this is mistaken and you want to leverage that shita to present coherent context for a needed shikel daas.

Beyond these two points, there are many many regular mekoros of how Jews must ask in gulis, about how to understand and safeguard breaking the shevios. These all present a singular cohesive view, from midrashei chazal to tshivas in psak to sodos haTorah to mifarshei hachimash to baalei musar and hashkufeh.

I don’t see any room for shikel daas if you cannot present an alternate deyoh in Shas! Who (in shas and poskim) is expressing the alternate shitah you claim that would put into question anything I wrote visavis gulis and the shevios?

@keith this is a completely anti-Torah rant of yours!
I don’t know your background, but what you are saying goes against Torah fundamentals as well taught by everyone from the Chofetz Chaim to the Baal HaTanya.

>> We are told we will not our temple back until we fix ourselves with ahavas chinam.

No, “Ahavas chinam” is a zionist trope with no source in chazal.

>> Do we spit on them because they don’t keep kosher?
YES. ideologically yes. but, we Jews don’t generally resort to violence.

>> Do we reject them because they don’t keep Shabbos?
YES. this is much worse than kashrus problems, as this places them outside of “klal yisroel”

>> They are our brothers and sisters.
MAYBE. Someone who doesn’t keep kosher because of ta’avos is still a Jew that is “achicha b’mitzvos”. However, a michalel shabbos or someone who reject generally the obligation to keep the Torah (and even one who rejects tochaha about a single aveira, but that situation is more complex today…) are all NOT “achicha b’mitzvos”, they are NOT our “brothers and sisters”.

>> We love them regardless if they choose to come back or not.
NO. Jews are not allowed to love those who rebel against the Torah, those who are not part of klal yisroel.

>> Perhaps one day they will and perhaps not.
YES. The door for tshiva is always open. Maybe they will come back. We shouldn’t reject them if they want to do tshivah.

>> There is however NO chance they will bless H-Shem if we do not love them.
NO. Tshiva is not dependent on anything except for each individual’s free choice. They, like anyone, cannot blame others for not making the right choices.

>> They will CURSE H-Shem because we show them hate not love.
MAYBE. There is usually little reason to tell anyone outside of Klal Yisroel that you hate them.

>> And it’s OUR fault not theirs.
What is our fault?

>> They were never exposed to Torah Judaism and its beauty.
MAYBE. Many secular Jews have been exposed to Judaism, and that makes their sins even worse. Regardless, this doesn’t change how WE JEWS are obligated to relate to such an evil person regardless of their exposure.

>> We were. It’s OUR JOB to love them and bring them to our loving Father.
NO. Our job is literally to keep the mitzvos of the Torah. While it is generally a kiddish Hashem when a baal tshiva returns, that is very far from creating a new mitzvah – chalila – of us bringing them back. Certainly, we cannot make a mitzvah from the sin of loving a rusheh,

>> We are told that every generation the temple is not rebuilt it’s not that we didn’t merit to rebuild it. It’s that we actively destroyed it.
YES. Stop loving reshoyim.

>>Many here live the story of the Chofetz Chaim … I am warning you now when you get to shomayim don’t use my name.
Yes the Chofetz Chaim was very explicit in his teaching about how one must hate and curse reshoyim like the ones we are talking about here. He warned you, @keith

>> You think people michaleil Shabbos are delaying geulah?
No. They aren’t part of Klal Yisroel. The sins of Jews, like those who think well on kofrim and apekorosim, are the ones delaying geila.

>>I think everyone here should stop saying anything negative u til learning Chofetz Chaim.
Please, take your own advice. You clearly haven’t learned it yet.

>> I think many here may as well start eating non kosher – the lashon harah coming out of our mouths is worse than eating non kosher.
This is kefira. We don’t allow aveiras in lieu of other shortcomings. We don’t say one mitzvah is worthless because of another one is lacking.

Please, take your own advice and learn the sugya that you speak about.

@yankel-berel

survivors I have spoken to claim that many days in the Nazi slave camps there were some nazi’s that would provide them old bread and sometimes soup-water. They even had established kitchens on campus to support jewish life.
That food helped them stay alive.

In fact between 1942-1944 Nazi Germany was the SINGLE GREATEST SUPPORTER OF JEWISH FOOD for Polish Jews still alive.
Sure, you might be confused as the Nazis were ALSO the ones who confiscated as much food from Jews as possible and took control of their lives, forcing them into camps. But, that was Nazi Germany from 1938-1941, a VERY different almost unrecognizable thing entirely.

So too Zionists claim themselves the SINGLE GREATEST SUPPORTER OF TORAH in the world…. v’hamaiven yuvin.

@yankel-berel

I appreciate the honest response that seems intent on moving the conversation forward.

I don’t have an issue with trusting the Torah “to the millimeter” nor do I doubt any part of it on any level.

However, since my point about hishtadlis seems to be novel to you, I will soften the suprise by expressing my disagreement with your claims on their own merit.

Histadlis generally is the exception that must be proven, not the other way around. For example, the starting point of being a Yid is believing everything is in Hashem’s hands. Specifically when a person is niftar is gozer on Rosh Hashuneh. This is clear in our mesora. So, every action – even general hatzula nefushos – is an exception to our normal understanding of the world and something that must be proven before allowed. So too medicine and parnsas. This doesn’t mean that those issues haven’t already been clearly established, hatzuleh nefushos and medicine and panuseh have all been well codified in Torah and in the Jewish life. Nonetheless chazal are clear that if nor for the Torah telling us explicitly, going to a doctor would simply be another form of avoda zureh and kefira in Hashem.

Beyond that clarifying point, your last comment included a very foolish false-binary of break the shevious or watch millions – chas v’shulem- burn. Keeping the shevios does not mean letting any individual Jew get – chas v’shulem – hurt. As I have written in other places: if zionists believe Jewish lives are in danger inside the medina, help them escape to safer lands. Running away from adversity is part of keeping the shevios, not breaking them.

This touches on my question to you in another thread around here right now: what is the real question? If I specifically don’t go to the army, will a Jew – chas v’shulem – die? If I specifically don’t answer the Hatzuleh Radio Medic Call on Shabbos, will someone -chas v’shulem – die? Can that person go to the hospital before Shabbos? Can that person escape the zionist danger and move elsewhere?

So, no, while of course the Torah is 100% correct, your attempt to divide and conquer its teachings is foolish and empty.

@yankel-berel

there is no “side-stepping” here.

if the morman’s did ALL that with the only caveat being they believed in their false moshiach, then it would still not be valid.

so too Judaism rejects this false moshaich called zionism.

we cannot remove even one letter of the Torah.

can you please actually quote the piece? all i see are a couple words dispersed in your explanation. what is the actual text? what is the specific source to look up? have you ever read it?

the same people that argue that “Zionism is surviving so it must be (chalila) good!” also argue that today’s “Zionism” has nothing to do with original “Zionism”…

@yankel-berel
I don’t think I am “hiding the ball” about anything we are talking. Everything I am saying is mainstream classic judaism as well documented in the major seforim of chazal,rishonim, and achronim.

“Klal yisroel” means “achicah b’mitzvos”, that is to say my “brothers” are those who are classified by the Torah as being part of klal yisroel. You can read the Rambam in Hilchos Mamarim as well as his commentary on perek “Kol Yisroel”.

It’s not my business personally to figure out how many people are in Klal Yisroel, but since you asked I would point you to the most obvious external feature of someone who is presumed to be NOT part of klal is anyone who is not publicly keeping Shabbos. The same surveys that would provide you with a population count of the medina also provide a speculation that a large majority of those self-identified “Jews” do not claim to keep shabbos.

–

Regarding my statement about dismantling the medina. I said “I don’t care to imagine” because it’s not something I am practically enabled to do nor is it a position of control that I seek.

The whole hashkafic foundation of the “three oaths” specifically and the gulis generally is specifically that we Jews as a nation are NOT allowed to do physical hishtadlus (like non-jewish nations) to survive as a nation. We are supposed to specifically make ourselves vulnerable to the “70 wolves” that surround us by not engaging in their “derech hateva” politics. We are specially supposed to turn to Hashem, and Hashem alone, to protect and rescue us as a nation, in order to show to the world (and even more so to ourselves) that we are a holy nation that is not guided by the natural order.

This is the exact tikkin of gulis and exactly why the shevios are taught as such.

So, if the goal of gulis is BITEL and to NOT take control of the national fate, but rather to explicitly and adamantly rely only on Hashem, you can understand how absurd your question is about “if you were prime minister…” Someone, chalila, wanting to be prime minister is exactly them being a zionist. This is what zionists call “self determination”.

Everything I wrote above has zero to do with me or my feelings or caring about anything. The above is true because it is what the Torah teaches us, as least as per my understanding. So, please refrain from attacking whoever you think I am simply because you are motivated to reject what I say.

@square_root
it’s the exact same reason the Notzrim have a “Jews for J” division

@izobar
Please bring the original quote you claim

@yaakov-yosef-a
you have a problem with:
“Use of Nazi terminology to describe Jews, including in the title of a topic thread.”

However:
There were a number of jewish nazis in WWII. There are well documented jewish “skinheads” in modern times.
Numerous gedolim have called both zionism and naziism “Amulek”.
Numerous gedolim have pointed out that Zionism (amongst klal yisroel) was the root cause of the Rise of Naziism and the Holocaust.
Numerous gedolim have pointed out that Zionist directly and indirectly supported the Nazi Holocaust.
Numerous gedolim have pointed out that Zionism was key “derech haTeva” cause of the Holocaust.

Supporters of Zionism carry much of the same ideology against Judaism as Hitler shr”y and other Nazi thought leaders.
Supporters of Zionism carry much of the same practical goals against Judaism as Hitler shr”y and other Nazi thought leaders.

I’m not sure what you have issue with.

@yankel-berel

It wouldn’t be “haredi” and I the chofetz chaim is not alive. I also don’t have any way to imaging the chofetz chaim going off the Torah derech. But, sure, chilil shabbos is chillil shabbos. shmad is shmad. aveiros are aveiros.

Do you think the chofetz chaim could become a catholic nun? would THAT mean you should also?

sorry, my above comment should have been addressed to @square_root instead of @always_ask_questions

@square_root

that’s a false source. go ahead and reference and provide the quote you claim.

@user176
sorry, this is a website for Jews. Here, we follow the Torah. Please stop teaching from other religions.

@yankel-berel

Here is what ChatGPT said:

You’re asking: **Is there an example today of a Western country—like Britain—“ruling” a place whose population practices a different religion and has a markedly different culture?**

The short answer is: **yes**, but only in the sense of overseas territories—not independent countries. Presently, **no Western power governs an independent country** whose population has a different religion and culture. However, several Western nations **do maintain control over overseas territories** with distinct cultures and religions. Here’s how that breaks down:

—

### U.K. Overseas Territories

#### What Are They?

* The **United Kingdom** continues to govern **14 British Overseas Territories (BOTs)**—not independent nations, but territories under UK sovereignty. These include places like **Bermuda**, the **Falkland Islands**, **Gibraltar**, **Turks and Caicos**, **Anguilla**, and others.([House of Lords Library][1], [Wikipedia][2])
* They’re not countries in their own right; they remain under UK oversight for defense, foreign affairs, and constitutional matters, while often retaining internal self-governance.([House of Commons Library][3], [Wikipedia][2])

#### Cultural and Religious Differences

Many of these territories have populations with **religious beliefs and cultural practices distinct** from those of the UK:

* **Gibraltar**, for example, has primarily Spanish-influenced culture and a majority Roman Catholic population, differing from the UK’s largely secular or Protestant heritage.([Monarchies Wiki][4], [Wikipedia][2])
* The Caribbean territories—**Turks and Caicos**, **Anguilla**, **Montserrat**, **British Virgin Islands**—are culturally Caribbean, with populations predominantly of African descent, Christian denominations, and culturally distinct from Great Britain.([Fencu][5], [House of Commons Library][3])
* Even the **Falkland Islands** have a small, uniquely islander culture with deep ties to their local heritage.([Wikipedia][6])

—

### Commonwealth Realms (Symbolic Rule)

There remains another form of vestigial “Western rule” via the **Commonwealth Realms**—countries that are fully independent but recognize the **British monarch** as a ceremonial head of state:

* As of 2025, there are **15 Commonwealth realms**, including **Canada**, **Australia**, **New Zealand**, **Jamaica**, **Papua New Guinea**, **Solomon Islands**, **Belize**, **Tuvalu**, and others.([Wikipedia][7], [EmpPaths & Travel][8])
* These are sovereign nations with their own governments, cultures, and religions. Recognizing the British monarch is largely symbolic and does **not** imply governance or cultural dominance.
* Many of these countries practice religions and cultures quite different from the UK—**Papua New Guinea** with traditional and Christian beliefs, **Solomon Islands** with Melanesian cultures, **Jamaica** with Afro-Caribbean traditions, etc.

In fact, some realms are moving away entirely from even this symbolic link. Very recently, **Grenada** passed legislation to **remove the oath of allegiance** to King Charles III from its constitution, a step toward abolishing the monarch as head of state.([The Guardian][9])

—

### Summary

| Type | Examples | Cultural/Religious Difference? | Nature of Rule |
| ———————- | ——————————————— | —————————— | ————————————————– |
| **Overseas Territory** | Gibraltar, Falklands, Bermuda, Caribbean BOTs | Yes | UK retains authority over defense, foreign affairs |
| **Commonwealth Realm** | Canada, Papua New Guinea, Jamaica, etc. | Yes | Independent nations; monarch is symbolic only |

* There are **no contemporary examples** where a Western nation directly “rules” an independent country with a different religion and culture.
* The only current parallels are in colonial-era holdovers—**overseas territories**—where different cultures and religions do exist under UK sovereignty.
* And increasingly, even symbolic ties like those of Commonwealth Realms are being dissolved in favor of full republican sovereignty.

So, @yankel-berel,
can you now answer my question as to what this matters? what is the point you are trying to make and why do you keep asking me this random question?

@ZSK
I think “Evil Nazi Death Cult” might have been a better name. Your thoughts?

@yankel-berel
I answered every one of your questions.

SA does NOT say what you want it to say. It says

[taken from Hebrew Books and transcribided without Ramu for brevity]
יורה דעה סימן קנז: על איזה עבירות ייהרג ואל יעבור, ובו ג’ סעיפים
סעיף א

כל העבירות שבתורה, חוץ מעבודה זרה, גילוי עריות ושפיכות דמים, אם אומרים לו לאדם שיעבור עליהם או ייהרג, אם הוא בצינעה – יעבור ואל ייהרג. ואם ירצה להחמיר על עצמו וליהרג, רשאי, אם העובד כוכבים מכוון להעבירו על דת.
ואם הוא בפרהסיא, דהיינו בפני עשרה מישראל, חייב ליהרג ולא יעבור, אם העובד כוכבים מכוון להעבירו על דת .אבל אם אינו מכוון אלא להנאתו, יעבור ואל ייהרג. ואם היא שעת הגזירה , אפילו על ערקתא דמסאנא ייהרג ואל יעבור.
ובעבודת כוכבים, גילוי עריות ושפיכות דמים, אפילו בצינעה ושלא בשעת הגזירה, ואפילו אין העובד כוכבים מכוון אלא להנאתו – ייהרג ואל יעבור.

and the translation:
Yoreh De’ah Siman 157: On Which Transgressions One Should Be Martyred Rather Than Transgress, and It Contains Three Sections
Section 1
Regarding all transgressions in the Torah, with the exception of idolatry, forbidden arayos, and bloodshed: If a person is told to transgress them or be killed, and the transgression is committed in private ( b’tzinah ), they should transgress and not be killed. However, if they wish to be stringent upon themselves and be martyred, they may do so, provided the non-Jew intends to make them abandon the Torah.
If the situation is public ( b’farhesia ), meaning in the presence of ten Jews, one is obligated to be martyred rather than transgress,
if the gentile intends to make them abandon the Torah. But if the gentile’s intention is merely for their own pleasure, one should transgress and not be killed. If it is a time of decree ( sh’as hagezirah ), one must be martyred rather than transgress, even for the sake of a sandal strap.
And concerning idolatry, forbidden arayos, and bloodshed, even when committed in private and not during a time of decree, and even if the gentile’s intention is merely for their own pleasure, one must be martyred and not transgress.

@yankel-berel
I tried to give you a chance, many chances, to save face instead of pushing zionist lies about Judaism while pushing Jews to go against the Torah.
Next time, please, learn the sugya before “teaching” it.

If you still have any questions for me, I’ll tr to answer. But, again, please try to learn some Torah.

@yankel-berel
I have no issue with the avnei nezer. many quote him, including in vayoel moshe, and no one is brothered by what he writes as his conclusion is as clear and obvious as his introduction which is that the shevios should be followed or the punishment is great.

Reread what I wrote as, like most things in Torah, you aren’t paying attention.

The full explanation of Vayoel Moshe in the binding nature of the Shulosh Shevios is very much in line with and at times explicitly built off the aforementioned exploitation of the Avnei Nezer.

I am not bothered, of course, by the Torah, I am bothered by your brazen willingness to be completely dishonest about what that Torah says.
You are not being honest about what is clearly written in Shulchan Aroch, not honest about Avnei Nezer, not honest about Vayoel Moshe, and ultimately you are not honest about what the Gemureh itself originally taught us.

Your statements about any of these sources are completely incoherent even when taken at face value in the original texts! Even more so when you consider them in broader context of each other and even more so with how the many other authorities learn any of them!

Again, I point you to your brazed lie about what the Shulchan Aroch writes in the siman you referenced regarding “vyaharog v’al yaavor. Please, go ahead and quote those three or four lines of Shulhcna Aroch and see if it aligns your anti-Torah claims.

@chaim87
thank you for sharing your kefira publicly for all to see. if you don’t care about the Torah that was given at Mount Sinai, and your only interest is whatever a “holy Jews says”, you are well beyond the threshold of traditional Judaism and the issurim of “ba’al tosif”.

@ujm
some meforashim say it was 1 in 600,0000

@keith
while i respects, perhaps, your sincerity. I have to push back that what you are pushing is NOT ahavas chinam but sinas chinam.
There is NO place for loving apikorosim or minim or mechalilei shabbos b’farhesia in our Holy Torah.

I mean that literally. There is no such thing in mainstream classic Torah seforim. Anything you might come across that talks about loving reshoyim, is clearly noted on page that this of course does not mean those who are beyond the pale – and that pale is always defined in line with the Rambam (for example) who spells it out in hilchos mamarim.

Even the Chofetz Chaim in that sefer he is named after is clear about the obligation to fully hate reshoyim. He also brings this in his sefer “ahavas chessed”.

Why is there no source otherwise? because it is a clear pasuk in tehillim and it would be kefira to reject is (as there are no sources in chazal that break away from the simple meaning, rather they expound on the obvious reading).

Loving reshoyim is the same mida as hating tzadikim. We are obligated to be mebazeh and mocheh publicly, and that is the Jewish way of fixing “sinas chinam”. By loving yidden BECAUSE they are yidden (partners in keeping Torah) and hating those who rebel against Hashem.

@simcha613

SPOILER ALERT: Torah leaned ‘l’shma’ doesn’t protect reshoyim like apikorsim, tinukei shenishbu, or other mechalile shabbos b’farhesya. It certainly doesn’t strengthen or protect the political zionist state and their rejection of Divine gezeiras hagulis.

So, to correct so much your zionist heresy that your bad chinuch (or bad choices) has brought you, let me take it piece by piece:

@simcha613 you said:

the obvious problems that the Charedim want exemptions for everyone and not just those learning

this is not a problem. this is a feature of being Jewish: we want to rescue ALL Jews from slavery to zionists. is this not obvious?

@simcha613 you said:

or that learning doesn’t seem to replace hishtadlus in other areas like parnassah, shalom bayis, voting, and protesting.

you are confusing “histadlis” and other things. “shalom bayis” is not histadlis, it’s a mitzvah on its own. protesting is not hishtadlis, its an outgrowth of the obligation to be publicly mocheh. for parnsasa and health, we Jews have as part of the Torah clear guidence that we are at times obligated to participate in those things in the natural way as an expression of our eminah and bituchon. If the Torah hadn’t told us explicitly, for example, to go to a doctor, it would have been absolutly fobidden as a abhorent breach in our designation as a holy nation.

None of this has to do with the seperate obligation to learn Torah.

@simcha613 you said:

Let’s take it as a given that learning Torah adds to our protection and is a component of our military defense.

This is zionist nonsense. Hashem protects the nation of Klal Yisroel from destruction in gulis(not the nation called Lebanon or Britain or Midinat-Yisrael). All mitzvos, especially learning Torah, give merit to Jewish individuals, families, and groups that participate in those mitzvos. This merit is primarily reward in the next world, but may have secondary positive effects in this physical world, sometimes leading to good to Jewish host cities and countries. All of this is the Jewish principle of Schar-v-Onesh, something that Zionism rejects and replaces with heretical “military hishtadlooot(sic)”

@simcha613 you said:

Personally, I believe this. It’s part of our Mesorah.

Yes your “mesora” straight form Herzl to the Pope to @simcha613. In contrast to your very strange and evil religion, I will continue to answer here as per -l’havdil- classic Torah teachings.

@simcha613 you said:

The big problem is that it’s a very vague statements and WE DO NOT KNOW HOW IT WORKS. And this vague concept is being used as a reason for not drafting more Charedim, increasing the defense burden on others. I’ve seen posters post here that Charedim need to do a better job explaining that this is why Charedim don’t draft. But what’s to explain? There is no in depth analyses of how it works or what we need like there is in every other area of halacha!
…

this is onlly confusing to you because you are confusing politics – which is by nature dishonest and manipulative – with Torah which is well documented and clear in 99.9% of situations. All the propoganda you are spouting started in and is only sourced in zionist political sources – like mk’s and the like. You will not find any Torah sources that explain how to undrstand zionism and zionist militarism within Torah because zionism is a different religion.