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we know that “gam zi ‘toiva”, everything is for Hashem’s good. This includes, the Holocaust and Churban Habayis and our Yezter Hurus and the Gulis in general.
BUT that doesn’t mean we daven for the Holocaust to , chv”sh happen, and we don’t cheer when the nazis win a battle. Instead we wish they would stop their evil, regardless of whatever hidden good we know Hashem has in mind. This is the pusik , “Haistaros Lashem…”. We are obligated to be discerning between good and bad and pray for the bad to go away and the actors to be quickly destroyed and punished.
So too, the nazi state called “Israel” (who is as much a “hidden good” for yidden as the death camps) we Jews daven three times a day will be quickly uprooted and destroyed, speedily in our days.
I sense you are asking me sincerely and not playing semantic games. There might be many who call themselves zionists when they are really (otherwise?) kosher jews, especially in haredi circles. I even heard charedim who claim to be the “real zionists because we keep Torah”. But, that is as absurd as claiming we Jews “are the real Notzrim because we’re going to really bring moshiach”, it’s absurd because it’s ignoring the definition of those who founded and continue to claim the title as their own. You can argue that there are differences across the many generation of evil zionists, you can explain the nuance between the secular zionists and the dati leumi, between the labor and the revisionists, just like you can argue about the changes between nazis in WWII and neo-nazi’s today.
But, words have meanings and labels are chosen for a meaning. “Zionism” means something and there is a reason there is a whole religious movement that calls itself “zionist” and makes itself distinct from other groups. I have, above, defined what I understand to be the common thread that defines the common fundamental ideology that specifically mean “zionism” as commonly used.
That common thread is the rejection of what they call “The Galut Jew”, the rejection of the Divine decree that we Jews remain second class citizens in non-Jewish nations, and the rejection of the Torah definition of “Am Yisroel” and replaced by one that includes michalilei shabbos and apikorsim and porikei ol torah and mitzvos.
This “common thread” is exactly the rejection of the Torah prescribe solution to exile which is specifically and exclusively tshiva and instead replaced with a military and guns and wars that demand “Jewish” domination over our own country and our own land.
Previously you asked me and ignored my answer to the question of what is “zionism”:
here https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-antizionism-amongst-religious-jews-has-no-legitimate-detractors/page/6#post-2529457To repeat the answer for readers hear about what is Zionism. one i’ve copied from another resource:
What is Zionism
Zionism is a secular anti-Judaism movement started in the 19th century to disconnect the Jewish community from religious Judaism and replace it with a secular new identity, called the “Hebrew” or ”Israeli”. Core to Zionism is the belief in ”self-determination” vs the Jewish belief in ”divine determination” where the success and safety of Jews is directly linked to our adherence to the Torah and keeping the mitzvos.
Practically, zionism today means the state of Israel has a right to exist, which is counter to the Torah which says that Jews do not have the right to have their own state (in any form) as there is a divine decree that we live as citizens amongst the non-Jewish nations.
tldr
Zionism means the State of Israel has a right to exist and that Jews have a right to self determination.
There are simpler, and even more to the point definitions, but they are only accessible if you have already accepted and learnt only Torah sources and rejected zionism.
Now to answer the current question of “what is a zionist?” it would be who believes that the State of Israel has a right to exist and that Jews have a right to self determination.
@mdd1
can you check your reference. is there a mistake or can you quote and explain?I don’t care about opinions. There is a Torah that defines what is kosher.
Regardless, what I wrote was intentional: “anyone who identifies as a kosher jew”.
I am not sure what type of “dati leumi” you are, the one who knows he’s a kofer and the one who doesn’t.
The Torah is not a secret, it’s content is widely accessible and taught around the world.
@simcah613, you asked a reasonable question. If you meant it sincerely, I don’t believe I can do it justice within the confines of CR (as mentioned above) and you should please reach out to me directly.
I’ll try to answer publicly bl”n when i can get to it. but, if you really want to have the conversation necessary for any serious torah answer, I’ve made my email available and would appreciate if you reach out to me directly. unfortunately, CR has two major systemic hurdles to real conversation: the inability to stay on topic within a open-group linear thread and the painfully slow manual comment editorial review process causing sometimes multi-day delays in a single response.
the invitation to my email is for anyone who identifies as a kosher jew.
would you agree that being “anti-yashke” is a “requirement to be considered a Torah Jew”?
i’m not sure how you will answer, so please explain why yes or no (according to your religion). If you say “it’s nuanced”, please explain that nuance specifically.
It’s a shame that you are more interested in attacking the messenger than learning the Torah being taught.
You sound like a reform when asked why don’t keep shabbos and told that breaking shabbos means they are no longer part of klal yisroel. “most jewsteins would find that statement of chazal abhorrent!”
yet you still wonder why the cries of gedolim have always been specifically against the “religious” branding of zionism, now known as “dati leumi” or “dati yashkeee” or “chashmonaiyeee!
unfortunately you’ve drunk the kool-aid of zionism and you sound just like @rescue defending humanism or every secular chazer-fresser defending reform.
the idolatry of zionism has very little to do with the gemara of shulosh shevios, rather that is just one of the many starting points. this is like saying the whole issue of xitianity is about whether yashke was from beis duvid or not.
but, like “jews for j”, your zionist leaders will tell you that all the tears and mesiras nefesh from gedolim of past was simply a machlokes of shitos, and that their criticisms were against the secular, not the religious. Nonetheless, those gedolim where very explicit that this has nothing to do with shitos or machlokes (in Torah) and the focused targets and war those gedolim waged were explicitly against the priests teaching “religious zionism”.
you’re missing the point BECAUSE you are not part of Am Yisroel.
The Torah demands we Jews love every member of klal yisroel and hate every rebel that is out, regardless of their name, “notrzi” “reform” “dati leumi” or whatever.
Fundamental to your zionism is the idea that we are all – chilonim, notrzrim, reformim, mesoratim, and (lehavdil) yiddin – one single group and we just have different lifestyles or a plurality of viewpoints.
But, no. Torah Judaism rejects all other religions, especially the “av ha teema” called “religious zionism”. We are not “one nation”, we fully reject any connection with those who claim that the zionist state is “Jewish”. We pray for their destruction and downfall three times a day, as per the established prayers of anshei kenses hagedola.
We hate those who hate Hashem because the Torah tells us to.
from Kisvei Hagrai Henkin, #116, pp. 232– 233.
Even if someone appears as a hater, nevertheless it is possible to change him into a friend, as experience teaches — for example, the story with Yaakov versus Esav. And it is a criminal sin (avon plili) of those talkative preachers who constantly preach halachah Esav sonei l’Yaakov and that the hatred Esav has is unrelenting.
This is contrary to the truth, contrary to Chazal, and contrary to Tanach. For Esav himself was not always evil [to us] and his hatred was assuaged by the proper response.
And as this was true regarding the first Esav, so too it is with his future generations. Subjugation brings peace. This is what Ben Zoma means by “Who is honored? He who honors others.” It refers also to the nations. When we honor them and say to them, “You are our friend,” they become friends because of this, and the reverse is true as well — if we say, “You hate us,” they will hate us because of that.
Experience confirms this daily.
Translation taken from Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro’s “The Empty Wagon”
You asked;
> I spent 20 years doing my best to fight against Xtian missionaries
> who target Jews for conversion to their religion.
> How many years did UJM or HaKatan do the same?Well, it looks like @HaKatan has been here in CR fighting the Xtianity called “Religious Zionism” for 19 years:
see https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/users/hakatan
“Registered: 19 years ago”and @UJM has been fighting zionist Xitianity here on CR for 18 years:
see https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/users/ujm
“Registered: 18 years, 5 months ago”I don’t know if they have been fighting “these missionaries who target Jews” longer then this online record.
@hakatan
> we are not “commanded to keep far away from hatred of our fellow Jews” if those Jews are not biChlal amisecha.we are, in fact, commanded to hate them more than we hate nazis.
Just like yashke ymach shemo, kook yemach shemo was a liar and kofer in the Torah. His evil teachings were well documented in his life, with numerous gedolim calling him out and putting his decrepit writing in cherem. He himself was forced to admit that he made up a new torah when famously confronted by – lehavdil – the Gerrer Rebbe ztz”l, but despite kook’s promises to retract his egregious corruption of judaism from his printed books, he never did.
Kook was widely mocked by Gedolim in his life, calling him “the fake prophet”. He was called a “rushe gumir” by Rav Elchonon Wasserman ztz”l. And tzadikim since then have continued to say “yimach shemo” when mentioning him and demanding his books be burned or at least thrown in the garbage like any other book of heresy
from wikipedia:
The Mizrachi (Hebrew: תנועת המזרחי, romanized: Tnuat HaMizrahi), not to be confused with Mizrahim or Jews of the East, is a religious Zionist organization founded in 1902 in Vilnius at a world conference of religious Zionists called by Rabbi Yitzchak Yaacov Reines. Bnei Akiva, which was founded in 1929, is the youth movement associated with Mizrachi. Both Mizrachi and the Bnei Akiva youth movement continued to function as international movements. Here the word “Mizrahi” is a notarikon (a kind of acronym) for “Merkaz Ruhani” lit. Spiritual centre: מרכז רוחני, introduced by rabbi Samuel Mohilever.
I agree with the statement, one that is well established in the Torah, that all followers of Mizrachi are idol-worshippers.
I support:
– beliefs as the yardstick of how we treat others
– shaming and degrading and humiliating others based off what they believe
– that no one is entitled to respect for their own opinion and their own beliefs, rather respect comes from aligning with ultimate truth.
– dehumanization of those who reject or are otherwise not aligned with truth.All the above are supported by me specifically under the guidelines as taught in the Jewish Torah.
False beliefs remove a person’s moral worth, mental states, and inherent dignity, justifying violence or abuse (when allowed by Torah law). In contrast, only those who align with Torah deserve respect.
Moral Consideration: Dehumanization strips heretics of the moral consideration typically granted to Jews, making their suffering seem irrelevant, whereas respecting – chas v’shulem – heretics is an explicit endorsement of those false beliefs.
“Us vs. Them” Thinking: Dehumanization relies on “othering” and tribalism to view a group as fundamentally inferior or animal-like, something necessary to protect oneself from the crooked influence of their rebellion against G-d.
all conversation is “psychological manipulation”, so i I don’t understand why you (according to your crooked worldview) would try to gatekeep specific types of psychological manipulation.
beyond that, you – without explanation – disparage hiding things or being afraid of things “being seen”. Yet, there are many things one should not see, nor want others to see, as there are many thoughts one should be afraid of thinking.
@rescue, I know you are a dumb and deeply evil person, I also know you care very little for Judaism and Truth. But, for the sake of other readers – those who want to learn about Judaism and learn from its Torah – let me point out that in Torah we actively shut down dissent and adamantly reject critical thinking as a foundation of learning. We pray for the Divinely justified death of a “masis” or a “madiach” and we daven for Moshiach to restore our ability to personally “death-penalize” those evil people that try to draw us away from simply following what our fathers and rabbis teach us from Sinai.
@rescue, please leave the Jews alone and stop proselytizing your stupid religion on this website.for those who are jewish and care what the Torah teaches us,
The Ramban (parshas ki savo) says the Divine promise of protection for the Jewish people is specifically for the Jews in chitz l’uretz – making Eretz Yisroel the most dangerous place for Jews.
they would only be confused because of zionist antisemitic propaganda as well as the deep inroads that crooked ideology has infected yidden who call themselves “frim”.
If only Iranians knew what the Torah teaches us about the zionist state called “Israel” and the deep evil of its violent soldiers…@damoshe
I would guess kook yimach shemo would be a heretic hero to a zionist like you@yankel-berel
did you die before doing tshiva?in that video, every sign that NK is wearing is explicitly about zionism and israel. There is nothing on their signs critical of any other country or even telling other countries what to do. All other general signage of “stop the war on iran” is clearly from different groups far away in video.
Can you point me to somewhere that you see NK with a �Hands off Iran� placard? I never saw such a thing and would find it completly shocking and out of character of them. They always – in public protests – focus on the singular true point that Israel does not represent Jews and Judaism is not Zionism.
I am very serious in asking if you can find me such a source. For the above reasons, I don’t believe that you are correct, but I am honest enough to look at any evidence you have.
I never saw NK say anything negative or politically sided to their host country. not in US, UK, or Iran. Can you please point me to ANY protest by anyone in NK against the US or in support of any foreign government over their current location?
you wrote “These people have no connection with the historical NK”. I’m not sure where you get that nonsense. The NK in the USA was led by Rav Moshe Ber Beck ztz”l who was a talmid of Rav Amram Blau ztz”l. Rav Beck was recognized amongst the charedi leadership of EY, USA, and UK as a gaon and gadol b’Torah and was not only the innovator of the modern-day NK activism as non-Jewish rallies, he was in his own life very outspoken about his position of which he wrote and published extensive seforim elaborating the Torah that girds his psak.
@la-boy
I don’t know you, but why are you so upset by the idea that you aren’t part of “klal yisroel”? Maybe you aren’t? Maybe they have a point.you sorry @rescue, but I practice something called “Judaism”. I’m not so familiar with whatever crooked stupidity you are pushing today, nor am I interested in hearing about it.
Please respect my “safe space” here and stop threatening me with your antisemitic dog whistles. If you are looking for peers to vent your anger at Judaism, G-d, or His Torah, there are many “religious zionist” and “messianic” websites where evil people can gather and further kill themselves.I’m not too interested in getting into the root of your confusion. I have always and continue to claim that my only goal is the Torah.
This conversation quickly became about something else, rachmuneh latzlun, when you started talking about “another side” that is NOT in the Torah. Entertaining teachings or musings that are not in the Torah is certainly not “k’dracho shel toyreh”, rather it is an issur of baal tosif and other aveiros.
So, the door is still open for you to provide any Torah sources that I have not addressed. I don’t believe I have done anything in these conversations except point to Torah sources and point to published teaches of torah authorities that explain what those sources mean. I am not adding my personal opinions, chas v’shulem, or other biases.
You, however, haven’t admitted to lying about the Avnei Nezer, claiming he taught something that neither he nor anyone else of stature taught, all in support of your other antisemitic religion.
rushe, merisha.
you’re beginning to sound more and more like @rescue every day!
We learn Torah as taught and understand and accepted across generation, within the framework given by Hashem at Sinai.
Regardless, this is not even the point you are missing. I have asked you multiple times to provide me any “torah and hazal” that does not align with anything I have written, and of course with the caveat that those pesikim and mamarim must be understood as taught by accepted torah authorities.
But, you, @yankel-berel the kofer, have nothing to argue with when I ask you to provide a valid source for your “other side”.
In contrast, I have readily supported everything I write with mekoros when requested (or admit I’m wrong when I am wrong).
just to keep us on track, I am waiting for you to finish and respond to the following unanswered questions:
G] I still have no idea what you are even attempting to talk about or ask here. What is your question?
H] I�ll wait for you to check the Avnei Nezer. It�s available on Hebrew Books for free. Where does the Avnei Nezer say what you claim?
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i suppose you will just continue your like a true zionist/shatnik/reformer/notzri and avoid admitting you are wrong and you will continue believing concocted nonsense not in our Torah
@pure-yiddishkeit
You’re ignoring the multiple instances of zionist murdering jews around the world the trigger hysteria and more emigration to the zionist slave state.
You’re ignoring that the zionist have happily mass murdered anti-zionist populations like the local arab populace of Palestine, zionists being the innovators ,uch of what we consider moder day terrorism, specifically bringing the terrorist culture to the Middle East, being the first perpetrators of civilian bus hijackings, public market bombing, bus bombings, ramming attacks on civilians, and random knifing of civilians to promote fear in the anti-zionist populations. all this was before the zionist founded their evil state. now they coordinate similar attacks either through “military” or “police” action or by proxy through sponsored terrorist group rivalries and attacks on civilians.remember, the zionists are the greatest beneficiaries of antisemitism.
since I’ve joined this conversation, let me be do the wonderful mitzvoh of being moche the disgusting commentor @rescue and his decrepit words laced with kefira and disgrace.
I appreciate those who are smart enough to ignore him and not answer his antisemitic stupidity
what you write comparing chassidus and missar, like “In general mussar is based on sor may�ra and chassidus is based on assay tov.”, is TOTAL nonsense.
both types of seforim deal equivalently with both aspects. Noam Elimelech, probably the most universal teach, influencer, and learned sefer in Chassidus, is fully entrenched in the “sir me’ruh” emphasis. Mesilas Yeshurim, arguably the most learned missar classic sefer today, is fully entrenched in the “aseh tov” emphasis.
The whole distinction is foolish and could only be said by someone who hasn’t learned either seforim. I mean, look at sefer HaTanya, which is well invested in “sir me’ruh”…
you wrote:
> a debate with someone who IN ADVANCE excludes one side is an obvious exercise in fulility.what is the “one side” I am excluding in Torah? I asked you for ANY sources I might have missed.
what in the world are you even talking about?
Do you mean to call any rambling idea “a side” that I have to consider, or do you agree that we Jews must ONLY consider the Torah that we have passed down from Sinai as per our mesorah?
are you okay?
I’ll happily look at any Torah source and view any sugya from all those kosher “sides”. What I won’t do is create, chalila, a side that doesn’t have a source from a major authority.
regarding the sugya at hand, as I said before: there are no �two sides�. If there is another side, one that has not already been considered and answered by those gedolim, please let me know.
@yankel-berel
> somejew should approach them like real torah judge , genuinely considering both sides �..no, I don’t need to do this. this is NOT the chazon ish’s approach when there is clear teachings/psak from previous gedolim and there is no “two sides”. If there is another side, one that has not already been considered and answered by those gedolim, please let me know. So far, @yankel-berel, you haven’t presented to me anything that is not already answered by people YOU admit are greater than you. As far as I can see, you do not have “another side” available, just foolishness.
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just to keep us on track, I am waiting for you to finish and respond to the following unanswered questions:
G] I still have no idea what you are even attempting to talk about or ask here. What is your question?
H] I’ll wait for you to check the Avnei Nezer. It’s available on Hebrew Books for free. Where does the Avnei Nezer say what you claim?
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> he claims that the medina has to be destroyed because it was made by reshaim �.
I never claimed this.> somejew answered that rambam is not talking about a rasha like the tsiyonim
I never answered this> so why can that principle not apply to the medina ?
> they work hard , prepare everything , to be taken over by a tsadiq , like mashiach ?In theory, I don’t have a problem with this. There are specific points in chazal about biyas moshiach that strongly push against what you are implying, but that is a new conversation we haven’t touched here in CR.
The earlier answer I gave to the above points did NOT talk about anything needing be destroyed nor did I mention the Rambam. What I wrote was:
Everything Hashem does is for good, even the koyach He give reshoyim. Nonetheless, we Jews are obligated to resist aveiros and push away evil, all as per the dictates of the Torah.
The zionist state is as much a preparation for moshaich as the nazi camps, and many gedolim have pointed out that they are both activities of amulek one and the same. We Jews continue to pray for the quick speedy downfall of the �Evil Nazi Death Cult� called zionism, their political state called �Israel� and its antisemitic violent army called the �IDF�.
You took the time to write, but have failed to answer the questions, instead scared away from facing Hashem Torah and instead chose another distraction. I”ll answer your new question here:
I don’t understand what the problem is you see in that chazal.
Everything Hashem does is for good, even the koyach He give reshoyim. Nonetheless, we Jews are obligated to resist aveiros and push away evil, all as per the dictates of the Torah.
The zionist state is as much a preparation for moshaich as the nazi camps, and many gedolim have pointed out that they are both activities of amulek one and the same. We Jews continue to pray for the quick speedy downfall of the �Evil Nazi Death Cult� called zionism, their political state called “Israel” and its antisemitic violent army called the “IDF”.
Moving on, please respond to the outstanding question, admit your mistakes and the Torah you distorted, and stop pushing zionist heresy.
the epithets i delivered are deserved. additionally,i don’t know who debating here is claiming to be innocent If you are indeed ignorant in a matter, don’t start arguing a random position of “sheriris liboi” and then get upset for being called out on that.
In any case, @yankel-berel, it’s now been over 20 days that you have delayed responding to my simple request to apologize for (or defend) your cruel words and baseless accusation.
I stand by my words with Torah and nothing else. When I am wrong, I admit it. That is why I am not a zionist priest like you.
Please stop avoiding the facts of our Holy Torah, do tshiva, and respond to the above questions honestly and maybe you will have a chance to get out of your mess.
I’m still waiting for your response “kedarka shel tora”.
or have you hypocritically choosen to “disappear”?Of course, you are like other “religious zionist” fools and “catholic” fools who don’t care about Torah except to serve their idolatry.
I continue to doubt you will admit you are wrong, instead ignoring my above pointed questions.@square_root
when did I �get offended and disappear�?I was clear in what I wrote.
@yankel-berel
why would the bad character of people who disagree with me have anything to with me, my humility status, or my midos?I have no idea why you keep attacking me, when I have said nothing controversial for a Torah honest Jew.
I answered all your long list of questions, and I am still waiting for you to admit you were wrong.Now you are introducing more nonsense questions that reflect both insincerity and ignorance, which I can also answer. But, let’s not lose track of finishing up your first list and your consistent mistakes and foolish claims.
I am waiting now more than two weeks for you to simply say “I was wrong”
let me remind you of the “dan lkaf chov” words of yours that got you here:
This seems like an established pattern
A] somejew posts something extreme and objectionable
B] other posters reply and disagree
C] somejew replies and calls them priests , fools , idolaters etc
D] the other posters respond in kind and somejew receives the same vitriol back in his own face
E] somejew gets offended and disappears
F] after a while , somejew gets over it and starts afresh
G] back to A again �.
====
the only way somejew is able to disprove the above post
is by supplying a point by point, fact and logic based answer , to each and every question
without running away �.
what somejew was doing till now , was plain �. running away �
it s high time somejew is accountable for the shenanigans he is posting
meanwhile you seem to be “too busy” to admit you are wrong. I’ve always been curious, does the erev rav realize they are the erev rav, or do you really think you are jewish? but please, don’t bother answering, i don’t want you to get distracted from answering the above long-delayed response to the above.
@yankel-berel
i don’t compliment reshoyim