somejewiknow

@riva
i can’t begin to understand why you make fun of the words of the Rambam. The rest of what you wrote is equally nonsensical.

@anon1m0us
nothing I wrote was novel. they are all points made clearly and regularly by both contemporary and classic gadolim.
I don’t know what you mean to say in your criticism, as I referenced the sefer Chofetz Chaim which, in line with a long line of gadolim before him, brings my point l’halucheh.
The gemara “af al pi” means (over there) that one single aveira (the hava amina of the gemara) would sever a Jew from being Jewish, and the gemara says that is not the case. The way it is uses in poskim, like in baal ha tanya’s shulchan aruch, is that even a kofer is still obligated in the mitzvos despite not being part of klal yisroel.
see this usage from shulcha aruch harav, hilchos ribis:

עו מומר שיצא מן הכלל דינו כנכרי לענין רבית שמותר להלוותו ברבית
שכיון שעובד ע”ז מין הוא ומורידין אותו למיתה וכיון שגופו מופקר ומותר
לאבדו כ”ש ממונו ומותר לאבדו וה”ה ליטלו לעצמו באיזו תחבולה שאפשר
ואין לחוש שמא יצא ממנו זרע טוב כיון שנטמע בין הנכרים . וי”א שכל
שאינו אדוק בע”ז כגון כומר לע”ז אינו מין ואין מורידין גופו וה”ה שממונו
אינו מופקר וטוב לחוש לדבריהם אם אפשר להשמט ממנו שלא להלוותו :
עז אבל ללוות ממנו ברבית אסור לד”ה משום ולפני עור כו’ ומשום לא תשיך
לאחיך שאף שהמומר אינו נחשב אח אצלינו אנו נחשבים אחים אצלו
ומוזהר שלא ליקח ממנו נשך שאע”פ שחטא ישראל הוא והנותן לו נשך עובר
בבל תשיך שהיא אזהרה ללוה שלא לגרום למלוה לישוך כל שהמלוה
מוזהר עליו

here is an AI translation for am harutzim:

Seif 76
A Mumar (apostate) who has completely departed from the collective [of the Jewish people] has the status of a Gentile regarding Ribbis, such that it is permitted to lend to him with interest. Since he worships Avodah Zarah (idolatry), he is considered a Min (heretic) and [the law is that] we cast him down to death (moridin oso). Since his body is declared ownerless (hefker) and it is permitted to destroy him, how much more so is his money [ownerless] and permitted to be destroyed; and the same applies to seizing it for oneself by any stratagem possible.
One need not be concerned that perhaps “good seed” (righteous offspring) will issue from him, since he has intermingled (nitma) among the Gentiles.
However, there are those who say (Yeish Omrim) that as long as he is not devout (aduk) in Avodah Zarah—for example, a priest of Avodah Zarah—he is not considered a Min and we do not cast down his body; consequently, his money is not deemed hefker. It is proper to be concerned for their words, if it is possible to evade him so as not to lend to him.
Seif 77
However, to borrow from him with interest is forbidden according to all opinions, due to Lifnei Iver (“Do not place a stumbling block…”) and due to “Lo Sashich L’Achicha” (“You shall not cause your brother to take interest” – Deut 23:20). For even though the Mumar is not considered a “brother” to us, we are considered “brothers” to him, and he is warned not to take neshech (interest)—for even though an Israelite has sinned, he remains an Israelite.
The one giving him the neshech violates “Lo Sashich”, which is a warning to the borrower not to cause the lender to “bite” (take interest), [a prohibition applicable] as long as the lender is subject to the warning.

you asked me about a “next part” fo the rambam, but I quoted the end of that sugya. you seem to be refereing to a preceding statement. reveiw and get back to me and try to make a coherent point.

@always_ask_questions
the place where the chofetz chaim quotes that prikei d’r’nusen is in
chofetz chaim. section 8. halach 5:

ה. וכל זה האיסור של לשון הרע הוא דוקא על איש שעל פי דין תורה הוא עדיין בכלל “עמיתך”, דהיינו עם שאיתך בתורה ובמצות. אבל אותן האנשים שמכירם שיש בהם אפיקורסות, מצוה לגנותם ולבזותם, בין בפניהם ובין שלא בפניהם, בכל מה שהוא רואה עליהם או שומע עליהם. דכתיב: “לא תונו איש את עמיתו” ולא “תלך רכיל בעמיך”, והם אינם בכלל זה, שאינם עושים מעשה עמך. ונאמר: “משנאיך ה’ אשנא ובתקוממיך אתקוטט” וכו’.
ואפיקורוס נקרא הכופר בתורה ובנבואה מישראל, בין בתורה שבכתב ובין בתורה שבעל פה, ואפילו הוא אומר: כל התורה מן השמים, חוץ מפסוק אחד או קל וחומר אחד או גזירה שוה אחת או דקדוק אחד – גם הוא בכלל זה.

here is an AI translation for am harutzim:

This entire prohibition regarding Lashon Hara applies specifically to an individual who, according to Torah law, is still categorized as “your colleague” (amitecha)—meaning, a people who are with you in Torah and Mitzvos.
However, regarding those individuals whom one knows to possess Apikorsus (heresy), it is a Mitzvah to denigrate them and shame them, whether in their presence or not, regarding anything one sees or hears about them. For it is written: “Do not aggrieve, each man his colleague” (Leviticus 25:17) and “Do not go as a talebearer among your people” (Leviticus 19:16)—and these [heretics] are not included in this category, for they do not perform “the deeds of your people” (ma’aseh amcha). Furthermore, it is stated: “Those who hate You, Hashem, I shall hate, and with those who rise up against You, I shall contend,” etc. (Psalms 139:21).
An Apikores is defined as one who denies the Torah and prophecy from Israel, whether the Written Torah or the Oral Torah. Even if he states, “The entire Torah is from Heaven,” except for a single verse, or a single Kal Vachomer (a fortiori deduction), or a single Gezeirah Shavah (verbal analogy), or a single grammatical inference—he is also included in this category.

@riva

1. Yes, Hashem does everything, including the Holocaust and its partner the State of Israel.

2. We cannot know what is in a person’s heart, but we are obligated to publicly reject them if they act publicly like an evil person (like a michalel shabbos). This includes tinok shenishba (see Rambam’s statement “don’t kill them so quickly”).

3. Secular people cannot be part of klal yisroel and it is forbidden to love them. This is a straight chazal (Pirkei d’R’ Nusen) based of a pasuk tehilim and brought in sefer Chofetz Chaim.

4. Certainly your love of evildoers causes your hatred of kosher Jews (as chazal teach, see rashi on first pasukim of bechikosai), and your false religion of love is true sinas chinam that pushes aways moshiach.

@riva, please don’t hesitate to show this to one of your charedi rabbunim in beitar as I am sure they will correct you. If I am in the wrong, please get any Torah sources from them. Until then, please stop spreading heresy and stop joining those who are battling against Hashem and His Torah.

@yankel-berel
In line with what many have said to you over and over: the situation in Eretz Yisroel is not pikiach nefesh. If it was pikiach nefesh, there would be a mass exodus of emigrants leaving the zionist borders right now. Additionally, there would be widespread campaigns in the Jewish world to raise funds to relocate those who don’t have their own means to escape the danger.

The reality is that the Jews in Eretz Yisroel themselves don’t agree with your nonsense bogeyman of “pikiach nefesh”. The reality is that if any zionists currently running their evil empire decided to do tshiva and dismantle the state they have many options on how to make a safe transition for the jews and non-jews that reside currently under the zionist boot. That structured plan may or may not include most jews staying in EY or emigrating to other lands. However, all of those possibilities are better than one more jew dying because of today’s zionist wars

[I am also glossing over another absurd implication of your nonsense, that pikiach nefesh isn’t applicable when there is an obligation of y’harog v’al tavor. but, @yankel-berel, I know already that you are kofer in at least that part of Torah because you’ve chosen another religion called “zionism”]

@Hakatan gave an honest and serious answer. what else do you want?

@riva
what a strange reaction.

Conquering Eretz Yisroel
1) there’s is not a positive mitzvah to conquer EY (not sure what you mean with the English word “settle”) in effect RIGHT NOW as we are in gulis. This is why the Rambam doesn’t include it in the 613 and why the Ramban explains his rational to include it in the 613 as despite that it is not currently in effect.

2) even if there would be such a mitzvah of conquering EY, that “conquering” means conquering it to be obedient to the Torah and uprooting all false idolatries from the land, something you and zionists like you, certainly are NOT doing.

Danger
While I can’t speak for @HaKatan , the words he wrote are that one should not risk their life for land as that is idolatry. He did not say that living on this side or that side of some green line is more or less dangerous, nor did he call out the Beitar community for such idolatry of sacrificing their life for earth. All he said is don’t put yourself in danger or send your children of to die for some fake-jewish government control. zionism is an evil death cult that thrives off of and causes mass jewish (chas v’shulem) death. Consider that zionism and their evil state would fully fall apart if antisemitism completely stopped (may both those things happen spedilly in our days).
There is a reason why some many on both sides of the political aisle easily consider that perhaps Oct 7 was planned by Netanyahu. Zionist have no problem sacrificing Jewish blood for their anti-semitic political dreams. Some sacrifice that blood on the altar of “the state” others on the altar of the “land”.
That is idolatry, something rampant on both sides of the zionist “green line”.

Safety
Why would a G-d fearing Jew choose to move to Eretz Yisroel if he was afraid of antisemitism? Is Eretz Yisroel not the place the Rambam says does NOT have our Divine protection provided in gulis? Are the aveiras of the secular and zionists not rampant I the land that the Torah warns us will bring (chas v’shulem) wrath on the inhabitents with such neighbors? Is chilil shabbos (especially) in EY nothing to you? Beyond this, even those barren of Torah know that within the zionist borders is by far the MOST DANGEROUS place that Jews live today!

Rashi on the very first pusik says that the land of Eretz Yisroel is G-ds to give to whom He choose. Did he not send us into gulis and take the land away? Are we jews supposed to now come like thieves (Rashi’s language) and claim it our inheritance when the Torah gives us no right (without Moshiach)?

I can promise you that the only one “winning” because of the State and their violent wars is the Sitra Achra and its zionist followers you call neighbors. Jews are certainly not winning because of their aveiros. Rather, we are winning as servants of Hashem and keepers of His Torah.

@square_root
looked at the article. none of those speakers were NK. None of the speakers posted spoke about hostages, hamas, or raising money. None of the signs mentioned anything about hostages, hamas, or razing any money.

NK, afaik, has never raised money for any non-jewish groups.

NK has many resources online their website as well as other content. What have you ever seen by them that is against the Torah (please quote with honest context)?

@ZSK

a rather weak response from you, as per usual. It will be an easy rebuttal. enjoy:

I am not at all rejecting the physical nature of the geila we are davening for, I am just adamant that we cannot exclude the spiritual geila (which is also the main part).

@simcha613’s “question” is very much like asking someone who believes (as all Jews do) in techiyas hamaisim why he doesn’t go now to the bais hachayim and dig up the bodies of his loved ones? Since, the @simcha613 logic would go, he davens for techiyas hamaisim every day, shouldn’t he be excited to go and at least have the bodies recovered to play with? Isn’t this what you are davening for and now Hashem has given you the means to get it? Do you not truly love your dead relatives? I mean, I’m not saying that this is or isn’t (so goes this foolish heresy) the techiyas hamaisim promised, we’re not prophets, but should you be running anyway to go get those bodies recovered? (ad kan lushon stupido)

I’ll let all the truth seekers enjoy the absurdity of the zionism and my above rejection of their false moshiach heretical catholic-like religion. If my response here is too difficult for your crooked antisemitic mind to grasp, go ahead and respond and express what bothers you, and I will happily dumb it down even more.

@capcom63
Your story was a very nice story up until the end when you made the silly statement that had not been for the rabbi’s risk you would not be frim. There are many messengers from G-d and any Jewish person who wants to do tshiva has the ability to do it regardless of anybody else’s choices The only reason you’re where you are today is because of choices you made Certainly the people who have helped you will get their reward but had they chosen differently would not have affected your tshiva in the least.
I’m not taking a side in the question of if they’re doing the right or wrong thing But certainly every BT is frim because of their own choices not because of the choices of anybody else.

@simcha613

you can play the say gymnastics with nazi murderous in WWII:
“while their mass slaughter of jewish villages is unacceptable, they don’t (in theory) want to kill all the jews, they just can’t control their emotions watching the jews refusing to aid their country”

Israel is not “our” country just because we choose to live in Eretz Yisroel.
Arabs (or whoever the zionists are murdering today) are not “our” enemy just because the zionists decided to provoke them to war.

@zsk
It seems you are attempting to couch pure heresy in academic language. When you label the Rambam a ‘rationalist,’ what are you actually claiming? Does this label add anything to the Torah he taught or the Mekoros we possess?
You are essentially presented with two options. Either you acknowledge that the Rambam’s worldview aligned perfectly with Chazal, the Medrashim, and the Geonim who preceded him—in which case, your academic labels of ‘rationalist’ vs. ‘mystic’ are irrelevant. Or, you are implicitly claiming that the Rambam was a Koifer who rejected the Medrashim and Chazal. To any faithful Jew, it is obvious that the Rambam was not a heretic. The Rambam’s teachings on the fundamentals of Geulah and Moshiach align with the tradition he received that detail its miraculous nature. You cannot fabricate a machlokes between the Rambam and Chazal based on a modern academic theory. Unless the Rambam explicitly states, ‘I disagree with this Medrash’ or ‘we don’t learn the simple reading of this Midrash,’ we must assume he is in agreement with tradition.
The same logic applies to the Ramban. He certainly did not reject the Gemaras or Chazal. Regarding the Mitzvah of living in Eretz Yisrael and the concept of Kibbush Ha’aretz, there is a vast difference between the Ramban and—l’havdil—the actions of the State of Israel. According to the Ramban, Kibbush Ha’aretz means uprooting of all Avodah Zarah and ensuring the land is totally dominated by Torah observance. The secular State has never done even attempted this. Even if one were to distort the Ramban to claim an obligation to conquer the land now during Golus—which contradicts his other writings—the Zionist State fails to meet that definition.
Regarding your personal attacks: My location is irrelevant to the truth of this argument and I have never said where I live. Beyond that, there is still no obligation for a Jew to move to Eretz Yisrael today; it is a decision based on individual circumstances and Daas Torah—a concept you seem to dismiss.
Finally, I use Torah sources to attack the Zionist idolatry you refer to as Religious Zionism. I reject offering any gratitude to the State of Israel, just as I would reject gratitude toward the Nazi regime, reformist disruptors, or any other anti-Semitic ideology seeking to destroy authentic Judaism.
To finish off the absurdity of your anti-Semitic claims about what Judaism teaches—claims that are truly against the Torah: You skip over all the steps that must take place before Kibbush Ha’aretz in the brocho that you mentioned. Beyond that, you ignore the Shulosh Shavios which forbid ascending en masse/with force to Eretz Yisrael. You also ignore the great danger that exists for Jews living all together in one spot. Chazal say that one of the blessings of our exile was that we were dispersed as a safety measure, so that the Jewish people could not be wiped out at once.
But you don’t worry about that, because you aren’t concerned with saving Jewish lives. You are concerned with saving the Zionist idolatry and maintaining political power for your government, despite the rivers of Jewish blood that are spilled to keep those evil people in power.
It is not just about Nusach HaTefillah or the specific dispute regarding those who include the word ‘l’artzeini’ and those who don’t. For some reason, you reject the words Raavad that say the Kibbutz Galiyosis going to initially be in the Midbar (wilderness). You reject that, you reject all the sources I’ve mentioned and you reject all the Divine threats of punishment—all for your fake Moshiach called the State of Israel. All for your fake redemption that cares for nothing in Torah except for your own desire to have guns, violence, and power. Zionism is a sick religion.

@yankel-berel

I suppose you’re trying to throw as much of your own dirt around to see what might stick, as you’re grabbing on to half-baked claims and straw man desperations.
In any case, besides two specific points in haluch (voting and taking money from the medina) you won’t find any Gadol in Torah that was cholek on Satmar Rebbe. If I am missing something, please let me know.

Rav Shmuelewitz was not an influential posek, so there is obviously no one cholek on him for any major psak.

If Rav Shmuelewitz was indeed paskining a chiddish against Satmar Rebbe (who was then the Rebbe of and Av Beis Din of Yerushalayim where Rav Shmuelewitz lived) or against Agudah’s other leadership. he would have spelled out the Torah rational for such a psak (as every posek is obligated to do when being michadesh against the norm). If he did do that, please let me know where it can be found.

@yankel-berel, I don’t understand how even tie your own shoes, as your foolishness is embarrassing. You somehow pretend the Satmar Rebbe, who was primarily a world renowned posek, was in fact a poetic mashpiah is his (not binding?) sifrei haluche. And Rav Shmuelewitz, who was a world renowned rosh yeshiva, was in fact a substantive posek!

Are you also confused which hand is your right or left?

@square_root
doing tshiva is not mesiras nefesh. they mean different things.
also, why the condecending attitde towards baalei tshiva? they don’t neeed to be appreciated more than any other kosher yid. we all must do tshiva.

@hakatan

you missed perhaps a more obvious absurdity in @simcha613 heresy, which is the implication that kibitz gulyous means moving to EY. Kibitz gulyous is just as relevent in London or NY.

I would ask, if I thought he had any yiras shomayim, why @simcha613 doesn’t join his bretheren in Brooklyn for that kibbitz gulyous that he claims to daven for three times a day.

@kgn
being “haredi” by names means rejecting the “zionist” state. You could argue that the “agudah” camp of the charedi world makes a (self-described illogical and abstract ‘horaas shu’ah’ see sefer “Biyas Hazman”) distinction between the zionist identity and the practical functions of the government, the chraedi Gedolim still unanimously protest the existence of the state in the same way their predecessors unanimously protest the existence of the Nazi regime in Europe.

Again, I challenge you as I have challenged others here to find any Torah source, (seforim, sh”ut or otherwise) by Gedolim who have said differently (this includes Rav Shach as well as Lubavitcher Rebbe).

@gadolhadofi
what’s the problem?

@shimon-katz
I’m at a loss of words. Who is calling for a political “sudden change of status quo”? The handful of long form interviews I’ve listen to from NK leaders are clear that they are not pushing any political agenda, no practical action, rather their activism is purely theological in nature.

And you are correct, taking charge politically of the situation is precisely one of the many sins of the zionist evil movement. No one is picking up a gun to stop the IDF in the name Torah.

It baffles me that this is not obvious if you have ever read anything from NK or anyone else from the Torah world. From top to bottom Torah’s anti-zionism like it anti-catholicism is about saving Jewish lives.

@yaakov-yosef-a
I’ve never claimed any identity other than being (well, trying to be) an erliche yid.

@always_ask_questions
As mentioned in my last comment in this thread, I also daven for the soldiers, both zionist and hamas soldiers, three times a day.

@shimon-katz
of course I’ve been to Mirkaz Harav, and the shooting there was one of the must heart wrenching things I have ever experienced in my life. I know a number of people that continue to learn Torah in that church of heresy every day.

The only solace I had and continue to have are the words of Rabi Akiva that just like we see the words of chazal were kept- in this case the gemureh that says our flesh will become hefker R”L – so too will we will merit to see this evil state collapse one day and Moshiach will return the crown to Hashem.

Also, the most disgusting thing you wrote is that ANYONE would act surprised as either Satmar Rebbe crying over such a tragedy. His cries – as a Yid – are the cries of tishab’uv. The zionist cries are the cries of chait huegel.

@yankel-berel

i’ve never gone against any gedolim nor claimed that I understand more. I challenge you to find anything of Torah substance that I have said in CR that I can’t back up with statements from Gedolim.

And I don’t meant this that I will nitick some distortion. I mean to say that my stance (as well as Hakatan it would seem) is fully aligned with mainstream Torah taught by Gedolim.

For example, take the evil masis imadiach Kook yimach shemo. There are a number of gedolim who have taught that he is a rushe gumir and yimach shemo. But, there are zero charedi gedolim who have taught that he is not a rushe.

You can rightfully claim that MOST gedolim don’t talk about him, and it is true that I am following those gedolim who taught that we must be vocal and uproot that heresy from klal yisroel. But, don’t accuse me baselessly of “knowing better than the overwhelming majority of gdolei yisrael(sic)”.

if these signatures are true: couldn’t have happened to more deserving reshoyim. thank you for showing the world more proof that “yesh din v’yesh Dayan”. As the Rambam says, “drink and feast to celebrate the death of such evildoers”

May all those who promote such gezera ruos meet a swift and peaceful eradication as per the blessing of “v’al malshinin”

@rightjew
what’s your question about zionists and Jerusalem. of course Jerusalem does not belong to the zionists. it currently doesn’t belong to the jews either, as we are in gulis. but either way, it certainly doesn’t belong to the zionists!

@yedl
No. Not at all. The word “Chassidus” can mean a lot of different things. I was speaking specifically about the teachings of the Baal Shem Tov. Those teaching were no “introduced” they were always part of Torah from Sinai. The Baal Shem Tov was a tzaddik, that is to say he was an almost perfect receptacle of Torah and an almost perfect teacher of Torah. He awoke and explained parts of Torah that were otherwise out of reach from common Jews. He dramatically sped up the hishtashlis of Torah from above to below and certainly did and/or enabled the uplifting of many sparks as the light of Torah was now reaching even lower levels than before.

This is just like the Chofetz Chaim didn’t “introduce” hilchos lushen hureh. Or the Satmar Rebbe didn’t “introduce” the gezeiros hagulis. They simply taught the same Torah that was given to us and passed down to us generation after generation from Sinai. Their “novelty” was just in arousing and emphasising the overlooked and less accessible parts of Torah.

As I said before, this is why every kosher Jew is student of the Baal Shem Tov because being a student of his just means being a student to the Torah m’Sinai that he clarified and made accessible.

@dovidbt

Huh? is there no issur of hichabris lreshoyim in pasikim, chazal, and poskim? Are there not numerous takunehs chazal such as yayin nesech and yichid that are with the specific explicit intent to keep us away from socializing with non-jews?

I don’t know if playing with “other” children will make someone OTD, but choosing to do so itself is OTD.

That being said, there are coutering values in psak that might allow – at least as a limid schis – for shelichim to live alone in sedom, but that conversation certainly does NOT start with the lie that “There’s no rule” otherwise.

the holy Baal Shem Tov didn’t do anything novel, chas v’shulem, rather he restored parts of avodas Hashem to klal yisroel.
being a student of the Baal Shem Tov just being a student of Moshe Rebaini.