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as I said above:
If my answer is not simple enough or you want to get into it more, I would request that you start a new CR thread and tr to formulate a full meaningful question that at at least tries to understand the above foundation of the Maharal that considers what you understand the answer(s) presented might be. With that, I and others can have more clarity on what you are missing or where your criticism might be well directed.You seem to be well meaning enough to want to at list hear a Torah answer. I am willing to write, iy”H, a source and specific response to your questions IF you can please compose a clear and focused well-defined question. The more you and I can focus on specific points, the more likely we can actually learn something instead of getting emotional and distracted into other adjacent parts of this large sugya.
If you can take it a step at and time and try to take responsibility to keep the conversation on track, I would enjoy the conversation. (i wish there was a better platform for structured conversation, but I am afraid to suggest anything here).
So, if you also want, please initiate a new topic.
@non-political
“religious zionism” by any other name is nothing new: “dati leumi”, “shabtai tzvi”, “notzri”, “jews for j”, “jews for z”, “sons for molech”, its all permutations of the same stupid false moshiach.BUT just to rephrase the original question: WHERE ARE ALL THE KOFRIM???
Where all of @always_ask_questions ‘s RABBIS????
If the moderators of this Coffee Room did their jobs correctly,
this “nutjob” would have been banned from this websiteI don’t understand your question towards me, as I think I have addressed it clearly and the answer is obvious.
The whole foundation of the shalosh shevios, as well explained by the maharal is that we must maintain the gezairas hagalis and are forbidden to directly work against. Part of the gezairas hagalis are the many pogroms and violence, lo alaini, that klal yisroel suffers through. The Maharal says explicitly that even if all the non-Jews got together and told use you MUST go to eretz yisroel, rebuild the Beis Hamikdosh, and reinstate a Torah kingdom, if they did that under real threat of DEATH, chas v’shulem, if we don’t listen to them, we would STILL NOT be allowed to break the shevios and we Jews would be obligated to give up our lives instead of breaking the shevios.
To be clear, the Maharal says the obligation to keep the 3 shevios is more important than pekiach nefesh (as is obviously true for every ‘yharog val tavor’).
If my answer is not simple enough or you want to get into it more, I would request that you start a new CR thread and tr to formulate a full meaningful question that at at least tries to understand the above foundation of the Maharal that considers what you understand the answer(s) presented might be. With that, I and others can have more clarity on what you are missing or where your criticism might be well directed.
@ujm
well written post. I don’t know if the accusations against EHK are true, but we should certainly presume they are true given their clear din as “masis imadiach” rashoyim.@yankel-berel you wrote:
I did take issue with the crooked and narrowminded statement that vay’m is the sole accepted halacha opinion , since supposedly no one else took issue with its content.
I am glad you are finally honest enough to recognize that Vayoel Moshe, as it’s author – one of the most prominent poskim of his generation – was admanat about both in his introduction Vayoel Moshe as well as multiple times through the sefer, is indeed written as a halachik sefer to paskin lemassa and that it’s length is “k’derech haTorah” like all major poskim before and after him that “show their work” and explain their reasoning and context for their psak.
That being said, it is well known and published psak that some (many) Gedolim did indeed tak issue with the psak in Vayoel Moshe, as has been well discussed here in CR. That disagreement is specifically regarding the 1) heter to vote in state elections and 2) heter to take money from the state. Vayoel Moshe paskins that this is forbidden while others have published clear psak and sources to justify their permission (see Biyos Hazman, for example)
Beyond those two points of contention, there has been ZERO legitimate disagreement with the psak of Vayoel Moshe. [I started a whole thread here on CR asking if I am overlooking anything. Of course, that thread is still open for feedback].
Perhaps more importantly, those poskim who disagree with the above two issurim of Vayoel Moshe DO NOT disagree with the fundamental principals that Zionism is yet another false moshiach and that we kosher Jews continue to pray three times a day for its state’s peaceful destruction (amen, kain yehi rutzon).
The overwhelming majority of the content of vy’m is agada
What! You just agreed that it was a halachik sefer!
It must be that you are calling the source statements of chazal “agada” and then rejecting the many halachik applications of those “agadas” by poskim across the generations, Rishonim and Achronim. I guess by labeling those statements of chazal “agada”, you think you can ignore the halachik ramifications and practical applications that our Gedolim have taught us? This smells like schoolyard bullying using name calling to push kefira (i.e. rejection) in divrei chazal and in later poskim.most gdolei yisrael disagreed with its conclusions halacha lema’aseh
The obligation to listen to the psak of Vayoel Moshe is primarily the authority of the sources he quotes.
We Jews are obligated to keep the Torah that was given at Sinai, that’s the Oral Torah and Written Torah. The “Oral Torah” is exclusively what was included in the Talmud (both Bavli and Yerushalmi and including all parts of those Talmuds). Anything that is not included in Tanach or Talmud is NOT part of Torah and nothing new can be added, chv”sh, to Torah.
The work of gedolai poskim since the sealing of the Talmud is to apply its teachings to ever changing situations, but with the obvious and explicit caveat that we Jews are only obligated and must only follow the Torah and nothing else. We are obligated to follow the “klalei horaah”, the rules of the halachik process generation after generation that define and clarify the teachings of the Talmud, but we are nonetheless at the end of the day bound to all this only because it is sourced in the Talmud and therefore the Torah that was given at Sinai.
That being said, there is no room for a “disagreement” with Vayoel Moshe if all he does is point to a statement of the Pnei Yeshiya or Maharal or Rambam. We are bound to follow those teachings (which themselves have already been fully endorsed as being 100% authentic to the Talmud they themselves source). If the claim is that in Vayoel Moshe he is making a mistake in those sources (to’eh b’limudo or to’eh b’shikil daas), than that accusation would necessarily need to be very explicitly made – and in our day that means published (as well laid out by Shulchan Aruch and many commentators throughout the generations). Alternatively, there could always be an accusation of intentional fraud – i.e. teaching something that is not Torah under the lie that it is Torah – which would of course very much demand a public accusation (by example, you can see exactly this by Shabtei Tzvi yimach shemo and AY Kook yemach shemo, who both made up teachings and claimed them to be Torah, and were loudly called out and exposed by gedolim for their fraud while offering no meaningful rebuttal)
The truth is that arguing with Vayoel Moshe is in theory available to anyone who fulfils the basic requirements of having learned well Torah broadly and learned well the specific sugya(s) at hand and who “goes in a good way” – to take the language of the Shulchan Aruch. Anyone with that baseline integrity who lives and teaches Torah as an “erliche yid” can write his halachik work that rejects the psak of Vayoel Moshe.
No one has done that yet and that it a reflection of the integriy of the Torah he taught and a reflection of our obligation to folllow the sources he brought in Vayoel Moshe.
There was never any normative halachik process applied to these subjects.
This is not only a contradiction to what you wrote above, but an absurdity to the fullest. Before Vayoel Moshe was published there was a 5-plus year history of regular published an publicized psak against the Zionist kefira and much written in the decade preceding its publication against that evil state. And, I’m not talking about Satmar Rebbe, I’m talking about Munkatcher Rebbe, Lubavitcher Rebbe, and many many more year after year from the original heretical idea of Herzl shr”y through each step in histroy you will find gedolim clarifying and publishing their rejection of that false moshiach.
And this is specifically “halachik” in that is it telling yidden exactly what to do (hor’ah) in light of specific teachings of the Torah. Of course, the many tens if not hundreds of published letters and kol kore’s against Zionist heresy by various Gedolim before the publication of Vayoel Moshe does not compare to the thorough codification of the core halachas and psak vis a vis the modern zionist state by the publication of Vayoel Moshe itself.
It indeed became the halachik “gold standard” that has no detractors in the Torah world even now.
BTW: I’m posting to CR the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s psak against zionism published in 1900, iy”H
you clutter CR with spam regularly. Just this morning, one thread has FOUR (!) long copy-pastes of your that disrupt and hinder real conversation. These spam (a p!g derivative) are repetitions of yours that are not just reused across CR threads, but you will blindly repeat it regularly within the SAME THREAD!
Usually your input is not even relevant to the conversation and it seems to me that your are desperate to shout down and “scream louder” that the real voices of Torah (including those who I disagree with) on these threads and/or you are desperate to simply get the last word in when your crooked ideas have already been well dismantled and rejected by the real Torah sources many people quote here while trying to learn.
I’m sorry that you follow the wrong religion and I’m sorry that you are strengthened by the sterilized sugar coated kiruv materials of english language artscroll fluff pieces. I presume the intent of that publisher and its authors is to give foolish people like yourself a gateway to something real in Torah by offering you something palatable to your heresy while attempting to point you in a better direction. You’ve proven them all wrong.
No one here called Agudas leadership a disgrace, I mentioned that the Satmar Rebbe does in Vayoel Moshe to give context to a separate point.
However, @smerel, decides to randomly and without explanation bash the main beis din of Jerusalem that is respected worldwide and an accepted authority of all ashkenazy communities there (chassidish and litvish).
The satmar rebbe zy”a was clear and explicit in his motivation and toeles to speak out against corruption, @smerel simply said he will stop talking.
you should understand how @square_root thinks:
In his world, ladies and goyim can be Gedolim.
In his world, zionist kofrim can be Gedolim.
Any noztri who learned at YU
will be supported and lauded as a Gadol by @square_root
as greater than that of the Brisker Rav ZTL ZYA.Any noztri who learned at YU
will be supported and lauded as a Gadol by @square_root
is greater than that of the Chofetz Chaim ZTL ZYA.@hakatan
spamming is one of the powerful ways to push kefira. you expect @square_root to give up his favorite tool to destroy yiddishkeit?no, that’s not just “an observation”, rather without any toeles it’s being motzei shem ra on what you admit is a “respected group”.
I don’t know how you can retract your evil words, but I hope you will at least follow your current inspiration to “not respond further on this topic”.
May we all see the evil state called “Israel” peacefully be uprooted and destroyed, speedily and in our days.
for your made up speculative “concern” you decided there is a toeles to motzi shem ra on the beis of Jerusalem, headed by the litvish Gadol Rav Moshe Shternbuch shlit”a?
What does this even have to do with the conversation? I mentioned the Satmar Rebbes statements in Vayoel Moshe (again, I think that’s where I saw it) that the rabanim in Agudas Yisoel who are living in Eretz Yisroel cannot paskin with confidence vis a vis the zionists because they are nogea b’davar. This is part of the larger critique that Adudah in general in NOT a beis din and is NOT run by the moetzes. This is core to the agudah’s structure by design, not something they deny.
what does your lushen hureh have to do with the statements of the Satmar Rebbe in Vayoel Moshe?
@hakatan
I don’t understand why so many are hesitant to call out the obvious heresy of MO and its leaders, instead running to meaningless Artscroll quotes that are marketing to their misguided students.Chazal are clear that there is no kuvod to talmidei chachamim (and certainly no concerns for lushon hureh) when kefira in the Holy Torah is on the line.
@yankel-berel
I’m not sure what your issue it. I was very explicitly referencing Vayoel Moshe and his criticism of Agudas Yisroel leadership. Take it up with him (the one you claim not to be speaking badly about).To be clear (if you care to understand anything being discussed here), the leadership of Agudas Yisroel is emphatically a lay leadership with loose ties to the “moetzes”. The consistent lack of Torah leadership is both one of the defining aspects and key points of criticism against Agudas Yisroel both from within and without.
That being said, Vayoel Moshe also lays out the Torah-sourced reasons why even tzaddikim with “daas Torah” can fall into the heresy of Zionism, H”y.
@zsk
I pretty sure that my point was taken from vayoel moshe when discussing the general disgrace that is the leadership of agudas yisroel under the Zionist State@yaakov-yosef-a
I’m rather offended that you claim I called for actions to dismantle the evil zionist state called Israel. I never pushed such action beyond the same prayer that every kosher jew says 3 times a day in asking for the quick destruction of evil heretics and they should have no hope and their kingdom should be fully destroyed and uproot from the world.As you correctly said, the Satmar Rebbe like all the other Gedolim who prayed daily and taught us to yearn for the full uprooting of that evil state, it was equally clear that we are not to take practical measures to bring down their evil government.
Taking these practical measures into ones own hands is the core sin of the zionists, and not one any Jew should emulate.
This is also, as I understand from their public interviews and statements, the explicit stance of Neturei Karta, that their actions are meant to promote peace and understanding amongst jews and non-jews to reject fully the heresy of zionism.
I don’t know @ujm’s intent in this post, but I certainly didn’t jump in to support active political action, which would seemingly be against the shalosh shevios.
@always_ask_questions
wow an “ad hominem” AND a “strawman” fallacy at the same time!
goyim without Torah are very strange indeed!@yankel-berel
you’ve clearly never looked at vayoel moshe nor have your heard what gedolim have to say about it.
it is psak halacha from top to bottom, as the author was admant to say in his introduction, as clear from the copius halachik sources that make up the bulk of the sefer, and as is necessarily true as per the pilpul and conclusions the author expresses.@always_ask_questions
it wasn’t intentional. i didn’t realize the order matters for such people. which comes first the ikkar or the tefel?@yankel-berel
you wrote:The Messianic congregation Yaron Lischinsky belonged to seeks to recruit Jews to Yushke worship.
While this is true, they officially call their false moshiach “Zionism”, a distinctly different name for a similar idolatry (some Gedolim say it’s not actual idolatry)
so is being mechalel shabbos b’farhesia
those who live under the zionists are less entitled to give their opinion about zionism as they are more noegea b’duvar
@yankel-berel
you wrotewithout adequate halachik deliberation whatsoever,
The whole of Vayoel Moshe is meticulous halachik pilpul and psak of the sugya of zionism. And, it is a well sourced and thoroughly laid out application of halacha that has no halachik detractor.
In fact, to make sure I wasn’t missing an counter to the binding psak of Vayoel Moshe, I opened thread https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-antizionism-amongst-religious-jews-has-no-legitimate-detractors here in CR with that exact question.
The closest anyone came to was some non-halachik writings of Doctor Rabbi JBS.
This couple was murdered by someone who, if given the opportunity, would shoot every single Jew on Planet Earth. He killed them because he thought that they were Jewish
No, this murderer had the opportuity that evening to shoot many more, but he said his goal was only to protest the evil zionist regime. He hid with his gun amongst the panicking survivors who did not know he was the shooter until police came and he volunteered himself as the shooter.
So, no, this was an evil political statement not a “kill as many jews” act.
There is also no reason to think that he cared if they were Jewish or not. He, along with many Jews, hates Zionism and the evil that regime does in the world.
@yankel-berel
there is clearly no pikiach nefesh when it comes to breaking the shulosh shevias. see maharal and ramban and others. this is sort of the whole POINT of the shevios.the sugya of tinok shenishba should never dull our rejection of kefira.
I personally know a number of seemingly sincere and otherwise very frum students of R”Z, from students of Kook shr”y (Merkaz Harav [sic]) to hilltop settlers. And none of their external sincerity takes away from the reality that their rebellion against Heaven is a greater danger to Yidden much muchmore than anything a decrepit rusheh like Rabin or Netanyahu shr”y could do.
Think we all know the answer …..
You are correct that it is specifically the Torah that we follow and that obligates us, not any specific person if they become (chv”sh) corrupted. The answer about the false moshiach called “zionism” is the same answer that we Jews have had for rabbonim in the ties of Shatz and the Notzri, yemach shemom: We will stay loyal to the Torah and to Hashem.
@square_root
I am always amazed by your ability to distract from and remove Torah from any conversation. Again (and we all know why) you are unable to quote Torah sources and rather turn to questionable and inconsequential superficial mussing of Yonason Rosenblum as printed in Artscroll fanfiction.I don’t intend to throw the publishing house of Artscoll “under the bus” and I do learn from their Gemaras (of course many do not because of the questionable status of many of their collaborators), rather I intend to highlight the obvious truth that even Artscoll itself does not intend for their English language novelle to have any integrity historically or in the Beis Medrash. Instead it is meant for light chizuk reading for housewives (and, i suppose, @square_root).
@square_root
why would any honest jew want to respond to your nonsense kefira? do you really want an the Torah answer?@yaakov-yosef-a
you wrote:I also believe that the sugya of Toeivah Rights is much more relevant today than Zionism, because secular Zionism basically no longer exists.
You seem to be fully unaware that the heresy called “Religious Zionism” that exists today is even worse and dangerous to Jews than secular zionism at its worst.
lol. you’re passion for evil is laughable and your love of spamming does a better job of undermining the heresy you are promoting than any other response one might find outside the bais medrash.
you inane artscroll quotes have been answered by Hakatan, myself, and many others, yet you keep reposting the same content to clutter and stop any real torah conversation in CR.
If R’ Shraga Feivel indeed had a counter psak to issue (he wasn’t a known posek), he should have published it with his sources and explanations as is obligatory in Shulchan Aruch. That would have given the “great man and a tzaddik” the Satmar Rebbe tz”l the ability to respond or retract his psak. I find it shocking that you believe R’ Shraga Feivel is of such weak belief in the Torah he learnt and taught, and so fearful of basar v’dam Tzaddikim that you think he wouldn’t actively correct what he believed a mistake in halacha, and you believe this based on an Artscroll quote from Yonasan Rosenblum!
To be even more to the point, R’ Shraga Feivel was nifter long before the Satmar Rebbe published his long halachik treatise called “Vayoel Moshe” where he very meticulously laid out the Torah foundations that obligate every kosher Jew to reject both the heretical religion called Zionist and the Zionist state that the call “Israel”, may it be peacefully dismantled speedily in our days.
The Ramban (parshas ki savo) says the Divine promise of protection for the Jewish people is specifically for the Jews in chitz l’uretz – making Eretz Yisroel the most dangerous place for Jews.
the response of @ujm is likely accurate, but one would need to review the actual input and responses of those politicians within the kenesset.
However, this would still be missing the point. So called “charedi” politicans are (unlike the religious followers of zionism) NOT Jewish thought leaders and their ideas, words, or actions mean nothing to the Jewish public. They are, at best, plumbers that some have been appointed by agudistim to handle the mess generated by zionism. at worst, they are just another snake in the snake pit, but with a long black coat.
The Torah rejects zionism and its immoral wars. The soldiers, like German soldiers in WWII, are a grave danger to Jews worldwide. As with any aveira, nothing good will come from their reliance on “kochi v’otzem yudi” and their weapons of death and violence.
@duvidf
What issue do you have with the Satmar Rebbe’s psak in his “Maamar Yishuv Eretz Yisroel”? Why do you accuse him of ignoring mitzvos he invested so much time in teaching the halachos of?the classic Torah world was never “zionist”. Zionism is just another false moshiach like Shatz and J.
This has been well expressed publicly and written about explicitly in tshivas by evey Yeshivish leader who has addressed the point including the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Elchonon Wasserman, the Chazon Ish, the Steipler Geon, the Brisker Rav, Rav Kotler, as well as Aguda thought leaders like Rav Reuven Grazovky and later Rav Shach, Rav Avigdor Miller, Rav Michael Dov Weissmandl, etc
the Mizrachi movement in Europe like the Modern Orthodox movement later in the US was clearly and admantly rejected by the “Greater Yeshiva World”. So too Kook in EY was put into cherem for trying to even partially push zionist thought into the Torah world.
The only support you will find for zionism in the yeshiva world today are by balei batim who don’t know anything beyond artscroll and mishpacha publications.
I was responding to the comment that said “Most of those soldiers who died were NEVER religious and NEVER Shomer Shabbat.”, so those Jews are by definition heretics (even if tinok sh’nishbu).
Anyone who is not part of “klal yisroel”, like a michalel shabbos, kosher Jews are obligated to hate (avos d’r”nusen, quoted in multiple places l’halacha including sefer chofetz chaim) and loving rashaim is itself an avaira and a p’gam in “ahavas yisroel”.
If a rusha, chas v’shalom, dies without doing tshiva, we see in Gemara Sanhedrin that Hashem is pained.
@square_root, you asked:
Why do the Chareidi anti-Zionists not cry when they
hear that “OUR soldiers” have been killed?We jews have been crying over the deaths of heretical Jews long before these evil men men became soldiers.
Regarding your Artscroll quotes, I don’t see any chidush that Rav Aurbach ztz”l cried over the deaths of “Jewish” American soldiers like earlier gedolim cried over the deaths of “Jewish” cantonist soldiers, “Jewish” polish soldiers, and “Jewish” kapos in the nazi ghettos and camps.
you wrote:
it is clear that voting for one of the religious parties will help religious jews in EY
that is obviously the whole pseudo-question. The false-moshaich of Zionism has cause immeasurable harm and death to “sonai yisroel”, similar to other heretical movements like Sha”tz and Notztrus.
The answer, for Jews, is obvious: we don’t want to be “saved” by Zionist money or professions of faith or partnerships with such “friends”. Rather, we want our rescue to come from Hashem alone and though keeping His Torah.
It’s a shame so many brazen tziyonim are ready and eager to drag Rav Chaim’s name through the mud to promote their “religious” avoda zureh.
Furthermore, you need to end these made up rules that we need a written source. if a gadol says its opnely thats fine too.
the obligation to publicly explain (not just state) one’s novel psak is stated in multiple places in Shulchan Aruch and is the reason all gedolai poskim spent so much time and ink in writing the lengthy responsa that makes up the massive library of Shu”T we have since Chasimas haShas.
I am happy to point you to specific mekoros if that helps, but beyond the technical requirment to publicize ones novel psak, this is also part of the obligation for a posek to seek out criticism from other experts in that halacha and the humility required to seek Daas Torah l’shem shomayim. To be clear, this humility and obligation to consult peers for peer review and certainly other experts is indeed codified in shulchan aruch, still I emphasize to obvious point that it doesn’t even need to be codified if you are indeed seeking the emes and are indeed looking for rabunim with yiras shomayim and daas torah.
you wrote::
Rav Chaim Shmulevits RY Mir writes that killed idf soldiers in the war, have the status of someone who sacrificed himself for the whole community and that ein kol berya yachol la’amod bemechitsatam ba olam haba.
please tell me where he “writes” this, otherwise I have no reason to believe an absurd anecdote.
I have consistently backed up everything I write in the name of others (when asked) with specific sources. I haven’t, thank
G-d, made a mistake.You, on the other hand, continue to push false made up storied without any sources, and you continue to resort to personal (ad hominem) attacks to compensate for your lack of Torah substance.
Some jew, here you go again, now arguing with the ywn quote from a haredi politician, still insisting that such opinion cannot exist.
I never said such an opinion doesn’t exist, rather I said such an opinion is not Torah rather it is heresy.
i have never rejected the Ohr Someach or the Netziv. stop with the baseless lies.
This is a translation of the full letter from the Imrei Emes as printed in Osef Mictavim as found on HebrewBooks.
Collection of Letters
Letter #60Letter from aboard the ship upon his return from Eretz Yisrael in 5681 [1921]
With the Help of Heaven (B’ezras Hashem Yisborach), 7 Iyar – Aboard the ship.
To my sons and sons-in-law and Yotzei Chalatzai [close associates/descendants], may Hashem be upon them.
Now, I hereby inform you of my perspective regarding matters of Eretz HaKodesh (the Holy Land). Behold, my heart feared and expanded, and I delighted in the radiance of its glory. I visited its institutions, and also the Yeshivos and Talmud Torahs under the supervision of the Chareidim, and I found them all to be good. However, they require assistance and help from abroad, and according to the help [received], so will they be able to expand.
I am very satisfied seeing that it is also possible to come to tranquility and conduct oneself there in the ways of Judaism as our fathers and forefathers instructed us. And whoever Hashem Yisborach has graced with wealth (hon) can, without any doubt, find his livelihood (parnaso) there in complete tranquility and observe Judaism properly without hindrance. However, even those who are unable or do not wish to settle permanently in Eretz HaKodesh, my opinion is – in order to help their brethren, the Chareidi Bnei Yisrael, to settle there – each one should set aside from his wealth a specific sum and acquire there a portion of inheritance (chevel nachala). And this bears fruit even in this world (Olam HaZeh).
And perhaps regarding this Chazal hinted “a third in land” – the intention is regarding the land of Eretz HaKodesh. For in Maseches Arachin, Daf 29, it is explained in the Gemara that lands outside the Land (chutz la’aretz) are like movable property (metaltelin) of Eretz Yisrael. (And by way of jest [al derech halatzah], one can explain with this what Chazal said: “In the future, the houses of Israel in chutz la’aretz are destined to be uprooted and transported to Eretz Yisrael.” Therefore, money has no security except in land, for through this, the remainder of the wealth in chutz la’aretz will also be preserved, as it is written, “May Hashem bless you from Zion,” etc.).
And to adorn myself beforehand, I immediately made – with the group I came with and some of the notables of Yerushalayim – a partnership based on a stock company (Aktsien Gezelshaft [Yiddish/German]), and we purchased in the city of Yaffo a plot of land of about twenty thousand amos [cubits] to build thereon buildings and shops, and within a year the buildings will be completed.
Therefore, I hope and request that from me they shall see and do likewise, for the time has arrived to do tangible things in actuality. And greater than this, I have brought several important matters and proposals for Agudas Shlumei Emunei Yisrael [Agudas Yisrael] which I must bring to fruition. And it is proper that there should be an assembly of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah (Council of Torah Sages) and also the general assembly of the Agudah (Konferenz [Yiddish/German]) in order to increase the work of settlement (yishuv) in Eretz HaKodesh with practical actions.
I visited the [High] Commissioner Sir Herbert Samuel [Note: Name slightly misspelled in Hebrew text as Eliezer Sa’amiel] and he promised that he would assist the Chareidim who come there to settle, that they should have all the rights that were given to other organizations, and he permitted me to announce this in his name. However, he added a condition that they should be at peace with the non-Jewish inhabitants. I said that I am assured of this, and I saw his face lit up (tzahavu panav). To his question regarding the number of members of our Agudah, I answered that it reaches the thousands (although I know it reaches the tens of thousands, may Hashem add upon them, etc. [Reference to Deut. 1:11]).
I also requested some special considerations (hanahos) for the immigrants (olim) who are settling, and he promised to consult on this with the administrator of judicial affairs in the country, and as much as he is able, he will fulfill the request.
And when I walked in the streets of Yerushalayim, in the place where the Arab inhabitants and their camels circulated, almost everywhere an Eivri [Jew] passed, they cleared the way with fearful respect (yir’as hakavod). Would that (halevai) we merit that there be a fraction of this in all countries among the inhabitants of the land. My view is that we can establish the relationship with them and dwell there in quiet and security (b’hashket u’vetach).
Surely you already know that in Vienna, at the assembly of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah, they decided that the Agudah should engage in practical work in all professions in the settlement of Eretz Yisrael, without regard to the changing political conditions that come and go. And this is truly my opinion, that the mitzvah of settling Eretz Yisrael that we were commanded in our Holy Torah is not something dependent on time, only on the ability (yecholes) and possibility (efsharut). Therefore, even now, we must use the current possibility and work with all strength (b’chol oz). For with the increase of Chareidi immigrants to Eretz Yisrael, their influence there will grow, and this will cause the guarding of the holiness of the Land (kedushas ha’aretz).
Several times I visited and was at the Kosel HaMaaravi (Western Wall), about which Chazal said that it never moved, etc. And I understood that this is the hint in what Chazal said, “Ears to the Wall” (Oznayim la’Kosel). And I poured out my prayer (siach) before the One Who examines hearts (Bochen Levavos) for our brethren in the Diaspora (Golah), generally and specifically, and for our associates (Anash) and our family, that we be saved in all matters.
And regarding the matter of keriah (rending garments [upon seeing the Temple Mount]), as far as is fixed in my memory, one needs to tear until one reveals his heart. However, elderly Rabbis testify that they tore only one garment. And I said, if this is so, the explanation “until one reveals his heart” is that the tearing should be with the feeling of the heart (hargashas halev), as it is written, “Rend your hearts and not your garments” [Joel 2:13], and as it is written, “My heart, my heart for their slain,” etc. [Cf. Jeremiah 4:19].
And behold, my joy was mixed with the saddening news from Yaffo, may Hashem avenge their blood (Hashem yinkom damam), as it is written, “For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed, for Hashem dwells in Zion” [Joel 4:21]. And likewise the unfortunate news (l”t – lo tovah) of the passing (histalkus) of Rav Moshe Eliyahu Halpern a”h (alav hashalom). Surely they will endeavor to establish the boundary [inheritance] of his widow and orphans (yo”ch – yosmei chelko).
In other cities and settlements (moshavos), I was not, except in Chevron. Because the first time I was in the Holy Land (Eretz HaKodesh), I did not desire to be more than four weeks, so that it should not become routine (regilus) for me, as explained in Chazal, that anything more than thirty [days] is called routine. From Chevron I returned with human pain (ke’ev enosh), for disgrace broke my heart (cherpah shavrah libi) seeing how a maidservant inherits her mistress [Cf. Proverbs 30:23]. For at the site of the Me’aras HaMachpelah (Cave of the Patriarchs), where we are permitted to walk, we are only able to walk just a few steps on the stairs. And from there onwards, the mischievous Arab youths jump about and do not allow our brethren, the Children of Israel (Achb”i – Acheinu Bnei Yisrael) to approach further. In Chevron, they requested of me – the Rav and other people from the Chareidim who remain few in number after the war years – that I should endeavor that Achb”i from the Chareidim should settle there. And according to their words, this city is a place of livelihood (parnasah) in various professions.
And I repeat my words, regarding Agudas Shlumei Emunei Yisrael, to arouse all the Chareidim that they should endeavor to increase the settlement (yishuv) in Eretz HaKodesh, both by collecting much money for the benefit of the Keren Eretz Yisrael [Eretz Yisrael Fund] of the Agudah, and also to generally arouse the Chareidim that they should rest [invest] a portion of their wealth in Eretz HaKodesh, each one individually or through associations (chavuros), in various ways and professions. However, it is very necessary that everything be concentrated in one place, and each of the associations or individuals should turn to the center of the Agudah, so that all the work of the Chareidim will be concentrated and unified. And through this, the influence of Chareidi Judaism will grow, and the settlement of Eretz HaKodesh will be founded in the spirit of the Holy Torah (Toraseinu HaKedoshah), written and traditional (ha’ketuvah v’hamesorah). Besides this, there will be great good from this, for when everything is concentrated in one place, such that without it [central coordination] no one will act according to his own reckoning (al cheshbon da’as atzmo), the collection of information and strengths will not go to waste (l’avaddon), and this will be a great cause [benefit] for the entire matter.
And behold, when I wanted to endeavor regarding the strengthening of the Agudah, I realized that the prevention of the concentration and expansion of Agudas Shlumei Emunei Yisrael in Yerushalayim, is: because the leaders of the Agudah, in name, were mostly drawn into the machlokes (dispute) of the Rabbanim. And consequently, people who do not wish to enter the machlokes cannot be counted among the members of the Agudah, and all the more so (u’machshav) those people who support HaRav HaGaon R’ Avraham Kook Shlit”a. And although some of the latter proposed to me that they should form a separate Agudas Yisrael (bifnei atzmo) – nevertheless (af kol zeh), I could not give my consent (haskama) to this, for there to be multiple factions (agudos agudos) within Yerushalayim among the Chareidim. For I hope that it is necessary (and possible) for peace (shalom) to prevail in the city whose name is Shalom (Peace).
And according to the ways I found appropriate there, I began to strive that there should be at least (al kol panim) a partial peace (shalom katu’a) initially.
And behold, abroad (b’chutz la’aretz) there was a different concept (musag) and picture (tziyur) than what it truly is. For according to the reports (yedi’os), HaRav HaGaon HaRA”K [Rav Avraham Kook] Shlit”a was considered as if he were an enlightened Rav (Rav ne’or) and pursued money (rodef shlemonim), and they came out against him with bans (charamos) and curses (gidufim). And also the publications ‘HaYod’ and ‘HaDerech’ sometimes brought these reports that came from one side. However, this is not the way, to hear only from one side, whoever it may be.
And HaRav HaGaon R’ Avraham Kook Shlit”a is a multifaceted man (ish ha’eshkolos) in Torah and lofty middos (character traits). Also, many say that he despises monetary gain (sonei betza). However, his love for Zion crosses every boundary, and he declares the impure (tamei) to be pure (tahor) and shows it a [welcoming] face, like that which Chazal said in the first Perek of Eiruvin about one whose like was not in his generation, and for this reason, the Halacha was not established like him. And from this, came the strange matters (devarim hazarim) in his writings (chiburav). And I argued (hitvakachti) with him much, that although his intention is desirable (ratzui), his actions etc. (are not desirable), that he gives a hand to poshei’im (transgressors), as long as they stand in their rebellion and desecrate all that is holy (mechallelim kol kodesh). And that which he says: that in this he cleaves to His [G-d’s] attributes, as it is written “You give a hand to poshei’im” etc. – I say that for this we confess (misvadim), “for the hand that was sent against Your Sanctuary” [from Vidui prayer]. And the building of youths is destruction (binyan ne’arim stirah), even in the building of the Beis HaMikdash (Beis Hamikdash), as Rashi writes.
True, it was also decided in Vienna not to cause harm to the guarantee of rights given to us in Eretz Yisrael. And even, Heaven forbid (chas v’shalom), to others, for the good will come from anywhere. But to magnify the activities (hit’amlus) of poshei’im and to flatter them (l’hachnifam) in an alarming manner (b’ofen nivhal), to call them ‘Shalom Aleichem Malachei HaShareis’ etc. ‘Malachei Elyon’ (Angels of the Most High). This enrages the Chareidim in a way that is impossible (ee efshar) to describe. Also, his methodology (shitah) regarding the elevation of the sparks (ha’alaas hanitzotzos) is a dangerous path (derech mesukan); as long as they do not repent from sin (shavim mi’pesha), then the sparks have no substance (ein bahem mamash). And brings thereby danger (sakanah) to pure and clean souls (nefashos tehoros u’nekiyos), that they should connect (yischabru) through this to poshei’im by the power of the beauty of Yefes [allusion to Gen. 9:27]. Also a danger to the one involved (ha’osek) in this, as our Rabbis ZT”L instructed us. And behold, the wisest of all men [King Solomon] engaged in this, as the Midrash expounds “to endear them to their Father in Heaven,” these are those sparks, about which it is said “Can a man take fire in his bosom etc.” [Proverbs 6:27]. And therefore Chazal instructed us “Sages, be careful with your words etc.” and about the wisest of all men they said they sought to hide (lignoz) the Book of Koheles, although they later said “Shlomo spoke well,” yet why (v’lama) did they inform us that they sought to hide it? …to hide it? It is all to teach understanding (daas) even regarding a man distinguished among tens of thousands (dagul mei’revava).
Lengthy discussion (arichus devarim) is difficult to put to writing, therefore I will be brief (ekatzer). For I began with peace (shalom) and I prevailed upon (pa’alti etzel) HaRav HaGaon RA”K Shlit”a and he gave me in writing and signed with his hand (chasum b’chasav yado), saying: That although his intention was for the sake of Heaven (L’Shem Shamayim), nevertheless (af kol zeh), when he heard that there was, Heaven forbid (chas v’shalom), a Chillul Hashem (Desecration of the Name) and a diminution of Kevod Shamayim (Honor of Heaven) through the expressions (leshonos) in his sefarim, and therefore, for the sake of Kevod Shamayim, he nullifies (mevatel) these expressions and matters (leshonos v’devarim).
Afterwards, I met (nisra’eisi) with the elder Rabbis, HaRav HaGaon R’ Chaim Sonnenfeld and HaRav HaGaon R’ Yerucham Diskin Shlit”a, that they should nullify (yevatlu) the [Kol Shofar] and the ban (cherem) and the curses (gidufim), and they are ready and prepared (muchanim u’mezumanim) to sign on this, just as HaRav HaGaon R’ Avraham Kook Shlit”a wrote as mentioned above (ka’nil). However, they add, that they only wrote letters to Rabbis to deliberate (ladun) on these expressions, if they are fit to enter the congregation (kasherim lavo ba’kahal), but around them, it became very stormy (nis’arah me’od) and without their knowledge (u’vilti yedi’asam), the Kol Shofar and the cherem were printed around their letter. However, they also were unwilling (lo chafetzu) to protest (limchos) against these [publications], as long as the strange and bitter expressions (leshonos hazarim v’hamarim) were not nullified.
And behold, even among these Kana’im (Zealots) there are many whose intention is for the sake of Heaven (kavanasam l’shem shamayim), and among them are many with whom I made a covenant of love (karati imahem bris ahavah), for their company is pleasant (ki chevrasam ne’imah). However, it is explained in Akeidas Yitzchak Parshas Pinchas based on “Not in the earthquake is Hashem etc.” [I Kings 19:11] that such a path is not possible (lo yitachen derech kazeh). And had they approached HaRav HaGaon RA”K Shlit”a calmly (b’nachas) in the beginning (ba’rishonah), they could also have achieved good (b’tov) with him to nullify these expressions, and there would have been no need (v’lo hutzrach lihiyos) for the disgrace of a Talmid Chacham (bizayon Talmid Chacham) and the flame of the fire of machlokes (v’lehavas esh ha’machlokes). And for all sides, it is now necessary that Chareidim come there to settle, it is understood (muvan) that the unification (hisachdus) of all God-fearing people (yirei Hashem) there is necessary, so that the olim (immigrants) there can concentrate properly (l’hitrakez k’ra’uy) and guard Judaism (lishmor ha’yahadus) so as not to mix (l’vilti lehisarev) with the different ones (shonim [likely referring to non-observant or secular]).
Therefore, the approach of peace (hitkarvus hashalom) is extremely necessary (nechutza b’yoser), and although I have not yet completed it (lo gimartiv od), I have made a beginning (hatchalah asisi). And when Rabbis and Tzaddikim come there in the course of time – as was promised at the assembly (ha’aseifah) in Warsaw – they will be able to finish also in the further details (b’yeser ha’pratim). For I heard from HaRav HaGaon R’ Avraham Kook Shlit”a that he is neither a Zionist (Tzioni) nor Mizrachi. However, as a general Rav (Rav klali), he is obligated to draw near with the right hand (l’karev b’yamin). And he knows that one Chareidi man who comes there is worth more (oleh yoser) than the settlement of a thousand freethinkers (chofshi’im).
Also, as long as the peace (shalom) is not completely finished (b’shleimus), nevertheless (af kol zeh), when the disparagements (zilzulim) from both sides cease. Behold, HaRav HaGaon R’ Avraham Kook recognizes (makir) the Beis Din (Rabbinical Court) of HaRav HaGaon R’ Chaim Sonnenfeld Shlit”a and R’ Yerucham Diskin Shlit”a – and even considers (choshev) this a beneficial thing (davar mo’il). Because (yaan) he has contact and dealings (maga u’masa) also with the chofshi’im, as a general Rav. Therefore, it is good that there be someone who can arouse (l’orer) him regarding some matter and respond (v’la’anos) to the Rav. Understandably (muvan), without insults (cherufos) and curses (gidufim), only in the way of peace (b’derech hashalom).
And behold, from the words of HaRav HaGaon R’ Avraham Kook Shlit”a mentioned above (ha’nil), you will recognize his middos – for although most of the people of the Holy City (Ir HaKodesh) and many of the Rabbis stand on his side, nevertheless (af kol zeh), he gives honor (cholek kavod) to the elder Rabbis (ha’rabbanim ha’zekeinim).
I was called to the assembly of Agudas Yisrael, and there too I requested that they engage in the matters of the Agudah and not in machlokes. For I proclaim about the Agudah, an assembly (knesiyah) that is for the sake of Heaven (l’shem shamayim), whose end is to endure (she’sofah l’hiskayem). And although we also learned (shaninu gam ken) “a machlokes for the sake of Heaven, its end is to endure,” however, there regarding a machlokes l’shem shamayim, the Tanna asks: Which machlokes is for the sake of Heaven? And he answers, for example: the machlokes of Hillel and Shammai. To teach us understanding (daas), that to conduct a machlokes l’shem shamayim, requires that there be great people like them. However, regarding an assembly for the sake of Heaven (knesiyah shel’shem shamayim), the Tanna does not ask: Which assembly, etc.
And I added in explanation of the language of the Toras Kohanim [Sifra] Parshas Shemini, which I heard from the holy mouth (mi’peh kodesh) of my father, my teacher Z”L (Adoni Mori v’Rabi Zichrono Livracha) in the name of my grandfather, the holy Chiddushei HaRim Z”L, on this expression: That one must be accustomed to the language of the Chassidim and fulfill it in their hearts. In the Parsha: “This is the thing which Hashem commanded you shall do, and the glory of Hashem shall appear…” [Lev. 9:6] That Yetzer HaRa (evil inclination), remove it from your hearts, and you shall all be in one fear (yir’ah achas) and one counsel (b’eitzah achas) to serve before the Omnipresent (lifnei HaMakom), just as He is unique (yachid) in the world, so shall your service (avodah) be unique before Him, as it is said, “And you shall circumcise [the foreskin of your heart]…” [Deut. 10:16]. Why [is this relevant]? etc. You did so, and the glory of Hashem appeared. And the Parsha does not explain explicitly what this thing is that Bnei Yisrael should do. And the Toras Kohanim also hints: “That Yetzer HaRa,” and does not specify what it is. However, it is brought earlier in the Toras Kohanim: Why did Israel offer more [sacrifices] than Aharon? Because they also had upon them the sin of the sale of Yosef, see there (ayen sham).
And behold, that known Yetzer HaRa, is the one still dancing (meraked) among us, and it is the sin of baseless hatred (avon sinas chinam), as brought in the Gemara. And Moshe Rabbeinu a”h prepared then, at the beginning of the resting of the Shechinah upon all the Holy Temples that would exist until the final day. Therefore, now in the footsteps of the Mashiach (b’ikvesa d’meshicha), we must hasten to lessen the machlokes and the baseless hatred (sinas chinam).
And so I heard the Midrash explained: “Woe unto us from the Day of Judgment…” etc. The brothers of Yosef could not withstand his rebuke (tochechah) when he said, “I am Yosef,” etc. [Gen. 45:3]. The hint is that Yosef rebuked them with this language. He said: Behold, it is true, I am Yosef, standing in my righteousness (b’tzidkasi) and I was not changed by the machlokes. However, I ask, “Is my father still alive?” – this is Knesses Yisrael! For the Ruach HaKodesh (Divine Spirit) departed from my father, and this caused the destruction (churban) of all the Holy Temples, etc. And then they could not answer him because they were dismayed (nivhalu), etc.
And behold, also in the rest of the details (b’yeser ha’pratim), it is possible to come to a common ground (l’emek hashaveh). And then, with the unification of all the Chareidim for the word of Hashem in Eretz HaKodesh, they will be able to achieve much to strengthen Judaism (l’chizuk ha’yahadus).
And from the aforementioned matters, the Chareidim in our country can also learn to cease the baseless hatred (l’hafsik ha’sinas chinam) and unite (l’hisached) in the Agudah.
I considered traveling via Munkacs to meet with the holy Rebbe of Belz Shlit”a, because I heard he opposes the Agudah. However, in Vienna, I heard from R’ Dovid Schreiber N”Y his reason and justification (ta’amo v’nimuko). And I refrained from the journey, because I grant him justification (tzedek) in his response, that he does not oppose it because it [the Agudah] is not good – because then he would have raised an outcry against me, as is his custom (k’minhago). Ever since the time when he would see something that, in his opinion, could bring, Heaven forbid (chas v’shalom), some harm (nezek) to the religion (la’das), he would go out with noise (b’ra’ash) and write against it to all the dispersions of Israel. However, he does not enter the Agudah, for the reason that it is necessary that there be those who stand from afar and critique (l’vaker), perhaps something will be done which is not good. Because the way of the people within it is to cover up (l’chapos al zeh), and when he [the Belzer Rebbe] is not within it, he can respond to the multitude (la’anot al rav) and the like (v’chahanei la’eil).
And behold, the answer is correct (nechonah). Although we lack that tzaddik in our Agudah, nevertheless (al kol panim), it is good that the hidden reason (ta’am ha’kamus) has been revealed to us. And with this I think, that those Tzaddikim will now enter our Agudah, who did not enter because they hung themselves on a great tree (talu atzmam b’ilan gadol). But when his reason is revealed, they can enter the Agudah and rely on the critique (bikores) of that tzaddik.
I heard regarding the scandal (sha’aruriyah) that they made from laborious letters (michtavei amal) to turn the bowl on its mouth [twist things], to write what was spoken at the Vienna assembly – and kal vachomer (a fortiori) what I spoke openly. The freethinking newspapers (mikhtavei eis ha’chofshi’im) in Yerushalayim twisted it, until I was forced (ne’elatzti) to issue a denial (hakchashah) via the mission of the two Rabbis who signed with my name. Understandably, they could twist what was spoken in the inner chambers (b’chadrei chadarim) – True, Chazal said: “Any matter that is destined to be revealed, people do not lie about” (Kol milsa d’avidah l’igalui, lo meshakrei inshi). But haters of the Chareidim – [this hatred] has removed them from the category of human (migeder ha’enoshi). And for the sake of peace (mipnei darkei shalom), they permitted altering [the truth]. And behold, they lie (meshakrim), in order to bring about machlokes.
Regarding matters of the Chief Rabbinate (Beis Din HaRashis), I did not involve myself at all.
I hereby conclude (mesayem) my letter with a reflection of the opening: That from the ten levels of holiness (kedushos) in Eretz Yisrael mentioned in the Mishnah, one can benefit even now as from goodness (k’tovah), both in the World to Come (b’Olam Haba) and [in this world? – text unclear] both Perushim [non-Chassidic Mitnagdim], Chassidim, those of [high] spiritual levels (ba’alei madreigah), etc. However, not to travel in haste (b’chipazon) (especially after it became known that they have closed the borders for the time being), but with settlement of mind (b’yishuv hada’as) and organization (b’histadrus), and to know beforehand how one will make a livelihood (yisparnes) there and how much money is required – all in detail (b’pratus), for I wrote only generally (b’klal) according to what I heard and saw.
These are the words of your father, who seeks your welfare and your good (ha’doresh shlomchem v’tovaschem).
Avraham Mordechai Alter