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@jerusalemy
I am always amazed by the stupidity of relying on government for safety regulation, when government is dismal at everything they do except taking the public’s money.

I appreciate the intent of OP @jerusalemy, but the answer is certainly not more bureaucracy.

I would suggest a private system of certification, like heksherim, that can be communally leveraged by parents very much like any consumer product.

@yaakov-yosef-a
I’ll start at the bottom of your answer and go to the top, since I think it will make my point clearer.

1)
My reason for the “negativism” (chalilah to call Torah such a thing!) in focusing on this part of the Torah is specifically because of people like yourself who validate and promote heretical anti-Torah viewpoints simply because there are a lot of foolish people who believe and/or parrot those crooked ideas. This aversion to push against apikorisus simply because of the number of claimed adherents is both obviously foolish and a stable of all types of apologetics for xtianity/reform/zionism/etc.

2)
I didn’t “mix up pshat”, I expressed the statements of poskim who have outlines the various consideration, classifications and degrees of sin, sinners, and how we are meant to relate to them. The sefer Bina V’Daas from a rav adler (? i think) shlit”a is a respected starting point for the different shitas.

3)
Beyond that, I am disheartened that you straw-manned my question as if it is “my whole hashkafah” based on a statement of which I barely claimed to be aware of its accuracy. My point in mentioning it was simply to bring out the absurdity of the aforementioned numbers game. The point is NOT to think “I’m the greatest” or even “only my group has the emes”, its simply to demand of myself to seek the emes of the Torah despite the rampant kefira and misdirection from fraudulent authorities: “common knowledge”, “gedolei yisroel”, “satmar rebbes”, “reform rebbes”, “charedim”, “all jews”, “klal yisroel”, “hamodea”, “artscroll”, “melech hamoshiach”, etc.

We Jews have an inheritance called the Torah that is accessible and available to anyone who wants it. It is the Torah that is taught by our true gedolim as per the guidelines outlined in the classic sources we all known and love.

If you are not sure who is a “true gadol” or what is a “classic source”, daven and choose a starting point, and Hashem will certainly lead you to the emes. It is only fools with agendas that say things like “well, it’s complicated” or “there are many opinions that are all valid” vis-a-vis a general Torah outlook.

The reality is that details can indeed get complicated, edge cases can have a spectrum of validity, but 99.9% of true available Torah is neither complicated nor undecided for laymen. The talmidei chachamim who are osek in Torah, the gedolim whose tshivas fill pages of complexity, are dealing with that 0.1% of ambiguity that sharpens and build true daas Torah.

4)
The “6000” is not, as I understood it in my comment, a statement of “top 6000 of klal yisroel”, rather I understood it as a statement of who is AT ALL part of klal yisroel. That is to say when moshiach comes klal yisroel will only number 6000 (or, 7000 as per your correction).

That means, as I am understanding it (again, not a centerpiece of my hashkufeh, just an exercise of integrity), the other “jews” are “jews” who are not part of klal yisroel, who do not get olam habu, who do not do tshivah when moshaich comes. These evil masses (in this theoretical) we are not allowed to love, rather we are obligated to hate. We do not pray (explicitly) for their “return”, rather we pray for their destruction.

So, my question again @yaakov-yosef-a: does this bother you? If so, why?

Now, I understand you are probably screaming ” but that’s misunderstanding the medrash of 7000!!”, which I fully admit might be true. Yet I suspect that you struggle calling the movement of “religious zionists” “reshoyim evil worse than nazis” despite that they are teaching a fake “torah” like the notzrim teach their fake “torah”. I suspect you have problem hating their priest leaders because of “kavod ha(fake)torah”, even though you know Kook sh”y had no valid sources for his teachings and knowingly tricked the masses to rebel against the Torah. All this only because of a numbers game trap you have fallen for.

Jewish blood flows like rivers because of the zionists, their wars, and the Divine punishment they arouse upon sonei yisroel. Worse, the kefira continue to spread worse than reform, and simple people start believing that our gulis is because of lack of an army or our rescue by means of one, chalila. Beyond that people start believing that Judaism is an ethno-religion or just “the best life”. It’s not “just” that, rather Judaism begins and ends with us being am hanivchar that is fully submitted to Hashem and His Torah. And when the aforementioned red lines are clear, there will be much less confusion for those who want to be part of klal yisroel despite the zeitgeist.

@yaakov-yosef-a
toy wrote regarding kefira: “You have to know something in order to deny it”

I’m surprised to see this level of dishonesty and am-harutzus from you. Please post a makor for such an idea, as I don’t believe it exists. Regardless (and this is the amharutzus), even if (according to your nonsense) it’s not in the geder of kefira, such a person would simply be an apikorus, or min, or just a plain old mimar.

All of these words have their own specific definitions, and collectivley they firmly reject any person who does not maintain a baseline yiddishkeit. There is simply zero place in klal yisroel for anyone who is not on board, including the greatest of talmidei chachomim and influential gedolim who can become a “zuken mamre” if they ever chalila cross that line.

Additionally, all these dinim are specifically ways that WE must judge OTHERS, and they are guidelines based specifically on what WE can see, not what goes on in their hearts. So, even if you would claim the above theory about an ignoramus and kefira, it wouldn’t change how WE must relate to such a rushe (it would only be relevant in beis din shel maaleh).

@yaakov-yosef-a

I “heard” in the name of Satmar Rebbe zy”a that there are only [or will only be (when moshiach comes)] 6000 erleche yidden in the world [or in eretz yisroel].

Now without debating the accuracy of such a statement, nor debating the value of such a statement even if indeed having been taught by the Satmar Rebbe. My question for you, @yaakov-yosef-a, is simply if you would be bothered by that fact?

Would you be surprised? worried? Claim it impossible?

I, personally, have no issue with that consideration as most of the upstanding normal Jews of all colors I know are full of heresy from top to bottom.

I beg you to please, if you respond to my question, explain if this aligns with your view on the masses of secular reshoyim that claim the title “jewish” while claiming they don’t keep shabbos.

Unfortunately it seems that many people would rather ignore what the Torah teaches it really means to be part of klal yisroel, what the real acceptance criteria are for Olam Habu (which may be as strict as rejection from even one intentional sin l’teyuvon without doing real tshiva), and instead they would rather feel better relying on questionable if not heretical Torah claims or relying on questionable if not heretical “rabbunim”, all to avoid personally doing tshiva.

@qwerty613
I criticized the bad things common in MO today. You responded that there are other jews who do bad things. And you said that I should be careful about calling out such bad things.

to quote exactly what you wrote:

And there are Chassidim who casually … so let’s be careful about attacking other groups of Jews.
</bockquote>
I don’t understand why the failings of any other Jews should demand I “be careful”. Careful of what? Also calling out their bad behavior?

[BTW, I disagree with your public tochacha of “chassidim” as you wrote it, which is why i replaced the motei shem ru with ellipsis. Those unnamed “chassidim” could be anyone, and you are painting the whole general population of “chassidim” with that brush. This could be valid criticism if the bad behavior was something endorsed widely by ANY of the many formal groups that claim the title “Chassidim”, but they certainly do not. Not only that, the sins you mentioned are not only NOT endorsed by any chassidic groups, they are already clearly and adamantly recognized as bad behavior and officially rejected by all those groups and sub-groups as well as all their theological leaders. Contrast this to the many groups and leaders that claim themselves MO who support and endorse the aforementioned sins and whose students practice that heresy in their names. ]

@always_ask_questions

my first thoughts are simply read the Rambam himself, which is the original source of the chidish that there could be any type of mumar that is considered a “tinik shenishbu”, where he ends with “don’t kill them quickly”. [before this chidish, the phrase meant a baby actually captured by non-jews].

The Rambam also defines the terms “apikorus”, “min”, “mimar” explicitly in Yad, brings multiple haluchos in other parts of Yad thet leerage those definitions, such as ribis and rotzeach, etc. He also write at length about kefira in mishnayos perek Kol.

At no point does he mention that there is some sort of excpetion for tinok shenishbu as mutually exclusive (as mentioned, of course there are tinukos shenishbu that are NOT mumarim). Nor does the Rambam provide any rational that would support such a binary.

However, in an effort to find your question addressed more directly, I offer the statements of the Brisker Rav who said “Nebach an apikorus is still and apikorus”. Even more direct, it the mamar on eminah from Rav Elchonon Wasserman’s kovetz maamarim (I think the very first mamar in the current common print). But, I don’t have it in front of me to quote exactly.

Yet to really get to the bottom of the question, a question really about todays non-jewish jewish, I would offer a look at modern day poskim and how they handle quesitons about their status l’halucheh.

Here is from shevet halevi, chelek 1, siman 20. He does not entertain any such consdieration that a common michalel shabbos today is not a imar

Here is the transcription and translation, automated (so please check for mistakes).

====================================
סימן כ

כבוד ידידנו המפואר ומופלג בתורה ויראה
טהורה הרב ר’ צבי ליבוביץ שליט”א,
שו”ב כפר חיים.

אחדשכ”ט וש”ת.
שאלת חכם חצי תשובה לנכון קבלתי והאותיות
מחכימות היות כי במקומו אנשים איזה [אולי: אלו]
מהמתפללים הם מחללי שבת ואוכלי נו”ט ר”ל, וזהו
לעשות ביום חג הפסח הבעל”ט וכי’ צריך לברר
בנ”ד אם להתפלל ביחידות כיון דתפלה בציבור רק
דרבנן, וגם חברת האנשים האלה מבטלים
משמחת יו”ט וגורמים בלבול תפלה, וכבר כל יקר
ראתה עינו תשובת רבותינו האחרונים ובפרט דברי
הרדב”ז ח”ד סי’ אלף קפ”ז (תקפז) ודברי מהר”ם שיק או”ח
סי’ ע”א, ומיוסד על יסוד דברי הפרי מגדים סימן
נ”ה דמותר להכעיס או לחלל שבתות אסור לצרף,
ועיין עוד סימן קכ”ח ומ”ב ס”ק קנ”ד, והין לו
להאריך בפשוט, דאסור להתפלל בקהל כזה כיון
דבעו”ה אינם בגדר בני ישראל בדיני מצות וצירוף
מנין.
ואם אמנם הגאון בנין ציון ח”ב סי’ כ”ג רצה
להקל במחללי שבת דזמנינו כיון דהולכים
לבית הכנסת ומתפללים וגם מקדשים קדוש היום,
דלא טעם מחלל שבת כגוי מפני שכופר
בבריאה וסבורא הא מודה ע”י קידוש ותפלה יע”ש,
ויותר מה מצאתי בתשו’ רבנו הרמ”ע בסוף אגרת
השמד שכתב וז”ל: וג”כ אינו ראוי להרחיק מחללי
שבתות ולמאוס אותם אלא לקרבם ומרחם לעשות
המצוות וכבר פי’ רבותינו ז”ל שהפושע אם פשע
ברצונו כשיבוא לבית הכנסת להתפלל מקבלים אותו
ואין נוהגין בו מנהג ביזיון וסמכו על זה מדברי
שלמה ע”ה לא יבוזו לגנב כי יגנוב למלא נפשו כי
ירעב, אל יבוזו לפושעי ישראל שהם בחי’ נסתר
לגנוב מצוות, ע”כ. ואמנם כ”ז אינו מעלה ארוכה
למכה דידן במקום שרוב הקהל הם פורקים ומחללי
שבת, פשיטא דאסור להיות בחברתם כיון דלהם

התלי’ בכל הענינים וגם איכא חשש דימשך
אחריהם ובפרט הבנים הקטנים הרכים לפניהם
קהל כזה. וגם דברי הבנין ציון הנ”ל נראים חדשים
ביותר ואיכה מקום לצרפם לענין נגיעת יין של
מחללי שבת בזמן הזה, אבל חלילה להיות אחד עם
קהל כזה. וכן מדברי הרמב”ם אינו ראיה דשם
מדובר ג”כ בנידון שיראי ה’ ידם על העליונה והם
רוצים לקרב גם אלו שבעוונותיהם פירשו מעדת ה’.
אבל לא כן המצב עכשיו בעו”ה שרבו הפורצים
ויראי ה’ אינם מתקבלים עליהם, לכן טוב שיפרוש
מהם ומהמונם. עיי’ ח”ס סי’ קס”ה-ח

ואמנם גם זה לא ניחא לי לקודש”ה שיסגר עצמו
ובניו בחג הק’ הבעל”ט להתפלל ביחידות
והנה הקטן לא יראה מעשי ה’ ולא ישמעו תפלה
בצבור ולא קריאת התורה ולא כל מנהגים הקדושים
והמתוקים שנהגו מימות עולם, ע”כ יקיים דברי
הרמב”ם ויהפך לו מקום אחר, כמש”כ פ”ו מהלכות
דעות דצריך לצאת אפילו למדינה אחרת ואז טוב לו
בגוף ובנפש.

English Translation

Siman Chaf (20)

To the honor of our glorious friend, distinguished in Torah and pure fear of Heaven, the Rav, R’ Tzvi Leibowitz Shlita [May he live for good long days, Amen],
Shochet u’Bodek of Kfar Chais.

I extend greetings of life and peace.
“The question of a wise man is half the answer” – I have received [your letter] duly, and the letters are enlightening. Since in his place there are certain individuals among the congregants who are Mechallelei Shabbos and eaters of Neveilos u’Treifos R”L, and this concerns what to do on the upcoming holiday of Pesach HaBa Aleinu L’Tova. And thus, it is necessary to clarify in Nidon Didan [our case at hand] whether to pray B’yechidus [privately], since Tefilah B’Tzibbur is only D’Rabbanan, and also the company of these people cancels the Simchas Yom Tov and causes Bilbul Tefilah.

And indeed, every precious eye has already seen the responsa of our Later Rabbis (Acharonim), specifically the words of the Radvaz, Part 4, Siman 1187 (587), and the words of Maharam Schick, Orach Chaim, Siman 71. This is founded upon the principle of the Pri Megadim, Siman 55, that one who transgresses casually (l’hach’is) or desecrates Shabbosos is forbidden to be included [in a Minyan]. See also Siman 128 and the Mishnah Berurah subsection 154. There is no need to elaborate on the obvious, that it is forbidden to pray in such a congregation, since Ba’avonosaynu HaRabbim they are not within the category of Bnei Yisrael regarding the laws of Mitzvos and inclusion in a Minyan.

And even though the Gaon, author of Binyan Tzion, Part 2, Siman 23, wished to be lenient regarding the Mechallelei Shabbos of our times—since they go to the Beis HaKnesses and pray and also recite Kiddush on the Holy Day, for the reason a Mechallel Shabbos is like a gentile is because he denies Creation, whereas this one admits to it through Kiddush and Tefilah, see there—and further what I found in the Responsa of our master, the Rama [Rabbi Menachem Azariah of Fano] at the end of Iggeret HaShmad, who wrote as follows: “And also it is not fitting to distance Mechallelei Shabbosos and to loathe them, but rather to draw them close and have mercy to perform the Mitzvos. And our Rabbis of blessed memory have already explained that a transgressor, if he transgressed willfully, when he comes to the Beis HaKnesses to pray, we accept him and do not treat him with contempt. They relied in this on the words of Shlomo A”H: ‘Men do not despise a thief, if he steals to satisfy his soul when he is hungry’ (Proverbs 6:30); do not despise the transgressors of Israel, for they are in the aspect of a hidden one stealing Mitzvos,” until here.

However, all this is not a healing remedy for our wound in a place where the majority of the congregation are those who cast off the yoke [of Heaven] and are Mechallelei Shabbos. It is obvious that it is forbidden to be in their company, since to them belongs the influence/dependence in all matters, and there is also a concern that he will be drawn after them, specifically the small, tender sons [who are] before such a congregation. Furthermore, the words of the aforementioned Binyan Tzion seem very novel (Chidushim), and how is there room to combine them [rely on them] regarding the matter of Negias Yayin of Mechallelei Shabbos in this time? But Chalila to be ‘one’ with such a congregation.

So too, from the words of the Rambam there is no proof, for there it speaks also in a case where the God-fearing have the upper hand, and they wish to draw close those who, through their sins, have separated from the congregation of Hashem. But such is not the situation now, Ba’avonosaynu HaRabbim, where the lawless (Portzim) have multiplied and the God-fearing are not accepted by them; therefore, it is good that he separate from them and their multitudes. See Chatam Sofer, Siman 165-168.

However, this too is not pleasing to me for the sake of the Kidsha Brich Hi, that he should shut himself and his sons away on the upcoming Holy Holiday to pray B’yechidus. And behold, the little one [child] will not see the works of Hashem, and they will not hear prayer B’Tzibbur, nor Krias HaTorah, nor all the holy and sweet customs that have been practiced since days of old. Therefore, he should fulfill the words of the Rambam and find himself another place, as he wrote in Chapter 6 of Hilchos De’ot, that one must leave even to another country, and then it will be good for him in body and soul.

======================

@yankel-berel
you said “I was reading somejew’s previous post claiming that a mumar does not get rewarded…”
please point to the specific comment (every comment has a unique ID number in the top right you can use as reference) in question and please explain what you think is wrong about it. I will either clarify or admit my mistake, iy”H

@yankel-berel
yes. “schar v’onesh” is one of the 13 ikarim. i’m not sure what alternative you were considering.

@yankel-berel
the mishna in sanhedren, “kol yisroel yesh l’hem olam ha bu” list many of those who lose olam habu (which is the main reward). The Rambam’s peirish on that mishna is where he list what became known as the “13 ikarim” and the rambam writes how a person doubitng them loses their olam habu.

However, if these reshoyim did any mitzveh, they would still get rewarded in olam hazeh (as per the rule of schar v’onesh, one of the 13 ikarim). This perhaps makes an easy context to understand the many statements in chazal and late poskim about the damage done when a mumar does a mitzvah that it feeds and strengthens, cha v’shulem, the sitra achra.

(this is regarding actual mitzvos, not the disgrace of profaning mitzvos that some do by putting teffilin on those who don’t believe in Hashem or Torah, turning yiddishkeit into a secular ethnic culture of “jew-ish”. there is no “mitzvah” if one does not believe they were commanded. that being said, we jews (not you @yankel-berel, as you’ve already defended and endorsed other religious) are not in the business of telling anyone – mumar or not – to stop doing any mitzvos, because we cannot know what is in a person heart. so we must be machmir on both sides despite the chazuke that they are kofer)

@chiefshmerel

I can’t speak for @flamingOTD specifically, but the claim that ANYONE is Jewish is specifically a religious claim of the Jewish religion, a claim specifically that such a person is obligated to keep the Torah. This obligation cannot be canceled and its reward and punishment will be delivered according to however much the Jew is on-the-derech, keeping the Torah.

I agree that a person who stupidly claims the Torah is NOT a real covenant with The Creator – reform, secular, religion zionist, or whatever – can not call himself Jewish with any integrity because those words indeed mean he believes he is bound by the Divine Torah. However, he may still indeed be Jewish (obligated) despite not being part of klal yisroel (rewarded).

@qwerty613

really “There are no questions about Chabad’s Mitzvah performance. That’s impeccable.”???

How many Gedolim, litvish and chassidish, cried rivers because of their brazen tefillin campaigns that have caused so much destruction? How much has been written about the fallacy of “kiriv”, encouraging mimarim to defile holy mitzvos by doing the “lo lishma” with no intent to do them lishma? how many balei tshiva have been led astray with faux-Chabad’s faux teachings of “ahavas hareshoyim” and “Hashem understands” if you can’t do mitzvos, and they are “just good things to do” anyway, chas v’shulem!

really? no questions?

@qwerty613
i missed that question of yours. But, it’s easy to find in Mein Kamph where he calls out the zionist movement as the source of his disgust of jews. In the english translation by Ralph Manheim that is available freely online, it starts on page 56. I would quote it, but like I don’t quote Kook yimach shemo I don’t want to quote his partner Hitler yimach shemo – as Rav Elchonon Vasserman said in the name of the Chofetz Chaim: the zionists are amulek.

@always_ask_questions
a tinok shenishbu – like every jew – is not עמיתך if he breaks any of the three re-lines I mentioned as that is the definitional Torah standard of עמיתך

the Chofetz Chaim claimed above by @anon1m0us is fraudulent.

@zsk
the consistent adamant rejection of zionism as kefira by Gedolim like Chofetz Chaim, Brisker Rav, and the Chazon Ish (as well as, of course, Rebbes of Lubavitch, Belz, Toldos Aharon, Satmar, etc) is specifically and explicitly a complaint against RELIGIOUS ZONISM.

@riva
i can’t begin to understand why you make fun of the words of the Rambam. The rest of what you wrote is equally nonsensical.

@anon1m0us
nothing I wrote was novel. they are all points made clearly and regularly by both contemporary and classic gadolim.
I don’t know what you mean to say in your criticism, as I referenced the sefer Chofetz Chaim which, in line with a long line of gadolim before him, brings my point l’halucheh.
The gemara “af al pi” means (over there) that one single aveira (the hava amina of the gemara) would sever a Jew from being Jewish, and the gemara says that is not the case. The way it is uses in poskim, like in baal ha tanya’s shulchan aruch, is that even a kofer is still obligated in the mitzvos despite not being part of klal yisroel.
see this usage from shulcha aruch harav, hilchos ribis:

עו מומר שיצא מן הכלל דינו כנכרי לענין רבית שמותר להלוותו ברבית
שכיון שעובד ע”ז מין הוא ומורידין אותו למיתה וכיון שגופו מופקר ומותר
לאבדו כ”ש ממונו ומותר לאבדו וה”ה ליטלו לעצמו באיזו תחבולה שאפשר
ואין לחוש שמא יצא ממנו זרע טוב כיון שנטמע בין הנכרים . וי”א שכל
שאינו אדוק בע”ז כגון כומר לע”ז אינו מין ואין מורידין גופו וה”ה שממונו
אינו מופקר וטוב לחוש לדבריהם אם אפשר להשמט ממנו שלא להלוותו :
עז אבל ללוות ממנו ברבית אסור לד”ה משום ולפני עור כו’ ומשום לא תשיך
לאחיך שאף שהמומר אינו נחשב אח אצלינו אנו נחשבים אחים אצלו
ומוזהר שלא ליקח ממנו נשך שאע”פ שחטא ישראל הוא והנותן לו נשך עובר
בבל תשיך שהיא אזהרה ללוה שלא לגרום למלוה לישוך כל שהמלוה
מוזהר עליו

here is an AI translation for am harutzim:

Seif 76
A Mumar (apostate) who has completely departed from the collective [of the Jewish people] has the status of a Gentile regarding Ribbis, such that it is permitted to lend to him with interest. Since he worships Avodah Zarah (idolatry), he is considered a Min (heretic) and [the law is that] we cast him down to death (moridin oso). Since his body is declared ownerless (hefker) and it is permitted to destroy him, how much more so is his money [ownerless] and permitted to be destroyed; and the same applies to seizing it for oneself by any stratagem possible.
One need not be concerned that perhaps “good seed” (righteous offspring) will issue from him, since he has intermingled (nitma) among the Gentiles.
However, there are those who say (Yeish Omrim) that as long as he is not devout (aduk) in Avodah Zarah—for example, a priest of Avodah Zarah—he is not considered a Min and we do not cast down his body; consequently, his money is not deemed hefker. It is proper to be concerned for their words, if it is possible to evade him so as not to lend to him.
Seif 77
However, to borrow from him with interest is forbidden according to all opinions, due to Lifnei Iver (“Do not place a stumbling block…”) and due to “Lo Sashich L’Achicha” (“You shall not cause your brother to take interest” – Deut 23:20). For even though the Mumar is not considered a “brother” to us, we are considered “brothers” to him, and he is warned not to take neshech (interest)—for even though an Israelite has sinned, he remains an Israelite.
The one giving him the neshech violates “Lo Sashich”, which is a warning to the borrower not to cause the lender to “bite” (take interest), [a prohibition applicable] as long as the lender is subject to the warning.

you asked me about a “next part” fo the rambam, but I quoted the end of that sugya. you seem to be refereing to a preceding statement. reveiw and get back to me and try to make a coherent point.

@always_ask_questions
the place where the chofetz chaim quotes that prikei d’r’nusen is in
chofetz chaim. section 8. halach 5:

ה. וכל זה האיסור של לשון הרע הוא דוקא על איש שעל פי דין תורה הוא עדיין בכלל “עמיתך”, דהיינו עם שאיתך בתורה ובמצות. אבל אותן האנשים שמכירם שיש בהם אפיקורסות, מצוה לגנותם ולבזותם, בין בפניהם ובין שלא בפניהם, בכל מה שהוא רואה עליהם או שומע עליהם. דכתיב: “לא תונו איש את עמיתו” ולא “תלך רכיל בעמיך”, והם אינם בכלל זה, שאינם עושים מעשה עמך. ונאמר: “משנאיך ה’ אשנא ובתקוממיך אתקוטט” וכו’.
ואפיקורוס נקרא הכופר בתורה ובנבואה מישראל, בין בתורה שבכתב ובין בתורה שבעל פה, ואפילו הוא אומר: כל התורה מן השמים, חוץ מפסוק אחד או קל וחומר אחד או גזירה שוה אחת או דקדוק אחד – גם הוא בכלל זה.

here is an AI translation for am harutzim:

This entire prohibition regarding Lashon Hara applies specifically to an individual who, according to Torah law, is still categorized as “your colleague” (amitecha)—meaning, a people who are with you in Torah and Mitzvos.
However, regarding those individuals whom one knows to possess Apikorsus (heresy), it is a Mitzvah to denigrate them and shame them, whether in their presence or not, regarding anything one sees or hears about them. For it is written: “Do not aggrieve, each man his colleague” (Leviticus 25:17) and “Do not go as a talebearer among your people” (Leviticus 19:16)—and these [heretics] are not included in this category, for they do not perform “the deeds of your people” (ma’aseh amcha). Furthermore, it is stated: “Those who hate You, Hashem, I shall hate, and with those who rise up against You, I shall contend,” etc. (Psalms 139:21).
An Apikores is defined as one who denies the Torah and prophecy from Israel, whether the Written Torah or the Oral Torah. Even if he states, “The entire Torah is from Heaven,” except for a single verse, or a single Kal Vachomer (a fortiori deduction), or a single Gezeirah Shavah (verbal analogy), or a single grammatical inference—he is also included in this category.

@riva

1. Yes, Hashem does everything, including the Holocaust and its partner the State of Israel.

2. We cannot know what is in a person’s heart, but we are obligated to publicly reject them if they act publicly like an evil person (like a michalel shabbos). This includes tinok shenishba (see Rambam’s statement “don’t kill them so quickly”).

3. Secular people cannot be part of klal yisroel and it is forbidden to love them. This is a straight chazal (Pirkei d’R’ Nusen) based of a pasuk tehilim and brought in sefer Chofetz Chaim.

4. Certainly your love of evildoers causes your hatred of kosher Jews (as chazal teach, see rashi on first pasukim of bechikosai), and your false religion of love is true sinas chinam that pushes aways moshiach.

@riva, please don’t hesitate to show this to one of your charedi rabbunim in beitar as I am sure they will correct you. If I am in the wrong, please get any Torah sources from them. Until then, please stop spreading heresy and stop joining those who are battling against Hashem and His Torah.

@yankel-berel
In line with what many have said to you over and over: the situation in Eretz Yisroel is not pikiach nefesh. If it was pikiach nefesh, there would be a mass exodus of emigrants leaving the zionist borders right now. Additionally, there would be widespread campaigns in the Jewish world to raise funds to relocate those who don’t have their own means to escape the danger.

The reality is that the Jews in Eretz Yisroel themselves don’t agree with your nonsense bogeyman of “pikiach nefesh”. The reality is that if any zionists currently running their evil empire decided to do tshiva and dismantle the state they have many options on how to make a safe transition for the jews and non-jews that reside currently under the zionist boot. That structured plan may or may not include most jews staying in EY or emigrating to other lands. However, all of those possibilities are better than one more jew dying because of today’s zionist wars

[I am also glossing over another absurd implication of your nonsense, that pikiach nefesh isn’t applicable when there is an obligation of y’harog v’al tavor. but, @yankel-berel, I know already that you are kofer in at least that part of Torah because you’ve chosen another religion called “zionism”]

@Hakatan gave an honest and serious answer. what else do you want?

@riva
what a strange reaction.

Conquering Eretz Yisroel
1) there’s is not a positive mitzvah to conquer EY (not sure what you mean with the English word “settle”) in effect RIGHT NOW as we are in gulis. This is why the Rambam doesn’t include it in the 613 and why the Ramban explains his rational to include it in the 613 as despite that it is not currently in effect.

2) even if there would be such a mitzvah of conquering EY, that “conquering” means conquering it to be obedient to the Torah and uprooting all false idolatries from the land, something you and zionists like you, certainly are NOT doing.

Danger
While I can’t speak for @HaKatan , the words he wrote are that one should not risk their life for land as that is idolatry. He did not say that living on this side or that side of some green line is more or less dangerous, nor did he call out the Beitar community for such idolatry of sacrificing their life for earth. All he said is don’t put yourself in danger or send your children of to die for some fake-jewish government control. zionism is an evil death cult that thrives off of and causes mass jewish (chas v’shulem) death. Consider that zionism and their evil state would fully fall apart if antisemitism completely stopped (may both those things happen spedilly in our days).
There is a reason why some many on both sides of the political aisle easily consider that perhaps Oct 7 was planned by Netanyahu. Zionist have no problem sacrificing Jewish blood for their anti-semitic political dreams. Some sacrifice that blood on the altar of “the state” others on the altar of the “land”.
That is idolatry, something rampant on both sides of the zionist “green line”.

Safety
Why would a G-d fearing Jew choose to move to Eretz Yisroel if he was afraid of antisemitism? Is Eretz Yisroel not the place the Rambam says does NOT have our Divine protection provided in gulis? Are the aveiras of the secular and zionists not rampant I the land that the Torah warns us will bring (chas v’shulem) wrath on the inhabitents with such neighbors? Is chilil shabbos (especially) in EY nothing to you? Beyond this, even those barren of Torah know that within the zionist borders is by far the MOST DANGEROUS place that Jews live today!

Rashi on the very first pusik says that the land of Eretz Yisroel is G-ds to give to whom He choose. Did he not send us into gulis and take the land away? Are we jews supposed to now come like thieves (Rashi’s language) and claim it our inheritance when the Torah gives us no right (without Moshiach)?

I can promise you that the only one “winning” because of the State and their violent wars is the Sitra Achra and its zionist followers you call neighbors. Jews are certainly not winning because of their aveiros. Rather, we are winning as servants of Hashem and keepers of His Torah.

@square_root
looked at the article. none of those speakers were NK. None of the speakers posted spoke about hostages, hamas, or raising money. None of the signs mentioned anything about hostages, hamas, or razing any money.

NK, afaik, has never raised money for any non-jewish groups.

NK has many resources online their website as well as other content. What have you ever seen by them that is against the Torah (please quote with honest context)?

@ZSK

a rather weak response from you, as per usual. It will be an easy rebuttal. enjoy:

I am not at all rejecting the physical nature of the geila we are davening for, I am just adamant that we cannot exclude the spiritual geila (which is also the main part).

@simcha613’s “question” is very much like asking someone who believes (as all Jews do) in techiyas hamaisim why he doesn’t go now to the bais hachayim and dig up the bodies of his loved ones? Since, the @simcha613 logic would go, he davens for techiyas hamaisim every day, shouldn’t he be excited to go and at least have the bodies recovered to play with? Isn’t this what you are davening for and now Hashem has given you the means to get it? Do you not truly love your dead relatives? I mean, I’m not saying that this is or isn’t (so goes this foolish heresy) the techiyas hamaisim promised, we’re not prophets, but should you be running anyway to go get those bodies recovered? (ad kan lushon stupido)

I’ll let all the truth seekers enjoy the absurdity of the zionism and my above rejection of their false moshiach heretical catholic-like religion. If my response here is too difficult for your crooked antisemitic mind to grasp, go ahead and respond and express what bothers you, and I will happily dumb it down even more.

@capcom63
Your story was a very nice story up until the end when you made the silly statement that had not been for the rabbi’s risk you would not be frim. There are many messengers from G-d and any Jewish person who wants to do tshiva has the ability to do it regardless of anybody else’s choices The only reason you’re where you are today is because of choices you made Certainly the people who have helped you will get their reward but had they chosen differently would not have affected your tshiva in the least.
I’m not taking a side in the question of if they’re doing the right or wrong thing But certainly every BT is frim because of their own choices not because of the choices of anybody else.

@simcha613

you can play the say gymnastics with nazi murderous in WWII:
“while their mass slaughter of jewish villages is unacceptable, they don’t (in theory) want to kill all the jews, they just can’t control their emotions watching the jews refusing to aid their country”

Israel is not “our” country just because we choose to live in Eretz Yisroel.
Arabs (or whoever the zionists are murdering today) are not “our” enemy just because the zionists decided to provoke them to war.

@zsk
It seems you are attempting to couch pure heresy in academic language. When you label the Rambam a ‘rationalist,’ what are you actually claiming? Does this label add anything to the Torah he taught or the Mekoros we possess?
You are essentially presented with two options. Either you acknowledge that the Rambam’s worldview aligned perfectly with Chazal, the Medrashim, and the Geonim who preceded him—in which case, your academic labels of ‘rationalist’ vs. ‘mystic’ are irrelevant. Or, you are implicitly claiming that the Rambam was a Koifer who rejected the Medrashim and Chazal. To any faithful Jew, it is obvious that the Rambam was not a heretic. The Rambam’s teachings on the fundamentals of Geulah and Moshiach align with the tradition he received that detail its miraculous nature. You cannot fabricate a machlokes between the Rambam and Chazal based on a modern academic theory. Unless the Rambam explicitly states, ‘I disagree with this Medrash’ or ‘we don’t learn the simple reading of this Midrash,’ we must assume he is in agreement with tradition.
The same logic applies to the Ramban. He certainly did not reject the Gemaras or Chazal. Regarding the Mitzvah of living in Eretz Yisrael and the concept of Kibbush Ha’aretz, there is a vast difference between the Ramban and—l’havdil—the actions of the State of Israel. According to the Ramban, Kibbush Ha’aretz means uprooting of all Avodah Zarah and ensuring the land is totally dominated by Torah observance. The secular State has never done even attempted this. Even if one were to distort the Ramban to claim an obligation to conquer the land now during Golus—which contradicts his other writings—the Zionist State fails to meet that definition.
Regarding your personal attacks: My location is irrelevant to the truth of this argument and I have never said where I live. Beyond that, there is still no obligation for a Jew to move to Eretz Yisrael today; it is a decision based on individual circumstances and Daas Torah—a concept you seem to dismiss.
Finally, I use Torah sources to attack the Zionist idolatry you refer to as Religious Zionism. I reject offering any gratitude to the State of Israel, just as I would reject gratitude toward the Nazi regime, reformist disruptors, or any other anti-Semitic ideology seeking to destroy authentic Judaism.
To finish off the absurdity of your anti-Semitic claims about what Judaism teaches—claims that are truly against the Torah: You skip over all the steps that must take place before Kibbush Ha’aretz in the brocho that you mentioned. Beyond that, you ignore the Shulosh Shavios which forbid ascending en masse/with force to Eretz Yisrael. You also ignore the great danger that exists for Jews living all together in one spot. Chazal say that one of the blessings of our exile was that we were dispersed as a safety measure, so that the Jewish people could not be wiped out at once.
But you don’t worry about that, because you aren’t concerned with saving Jewish lives. You are concerned with saving the Zionist idolatry and maintaining political power for your government, despite the rivers of Jewish blood that are spilled to keep those evil people in power.
It is not just about Nusach HaTefillah or the specific dispute regarding those who include the word ‘l’artzeini’ and those who don’t. For some reason, you reject the words Raavad that say the Kibbutz Galiyosis going to initially be in the Midbar (wilderness). You reject that, you reject all the sources I’ve mentioned and you reject all the Divine threats of punishment—all for your fake Moshiach called the State of Israel. All for your fake redemption that cares for nothing in Torah except for your own desire to have guns, violence, and power. Zionism is a sick religion.

@yankel-berel

I suppose you’re trying to throw as much of your own dirt around to see what might stick, as you’re grabbing on to half-baked claims and straw man desperations.
In any case, besides two specific points in haluch (voting and taking money from the medina) you won’t find any Gadol in Torah that was cholek on Satmar Rebbe. If I am missing something, please let me know.

Rav Shmuelewitz was not an influential posek, so there is obviously no one cholek on him for any major psak.

If Rav Shmuelewitz was indeed paskining a chiddish against Satmar Rebbe (who was then the Rebbe of and Av Beis Din of Yerushalayim where Rav Shmuelewitz lived) or against Agudah’s other leadership. he would have spelled out the Torah rational for such a psak (as every posek is obligated to do when being michadesh against the norm). If he did do that, please let me know where it can be found.

@yankel-berel, I don’t understand how even tie your own shoes, as your foolishness is embarrassing. You somehow pretend the Satmar Rebbe, who was primarily a world renowned posek, was in fact a poetic mashpiah is his (not binding?) sifrei haluche. And Rav Shmuelewitz, who was a world renowned rosh yeshiva, was in fact a substantive posek!

Are you also confused which hand is your right or left?

@square_root
doing tshiva is not mesiras nefesh. they mean different things.
also, why the condecending attitde towards baalei tshiva? they don’t neeed to be appreciated more than any other kosher yid. we all must do tshiva.