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@yankel-berel

just to keep us on track, I am waiting for you to finish and respond to the following unanswered questions:

G] I still have no idea what you are even attempting to talk about or ask here. What is your question?

H] I’ll wait for you to check the Avnei Nezer. It’s available on Hebrew Books for free. Where does the Avnei Nezer say what you claim?

=================

i suppose you will just continue your like a true zionist/shatnik/reformer/notzri and avoid admitting you are wrong and you will continue believing concocted nonsense not in our Torah

since I’ve joined this conversation, let me be do the wonderful mitzvoh of being moche the disgusting commentor @rescue and his decrepit words laced with kefira and disgrace.

I appreciate those who are smart enough to ignore him and not answer his antisemitic stupidity

@yankel-berel

you wrote:
> a debate with someone who IN ADVANCE excludes one side is an obvious exercise in fulility.

what is the “one side” I am excluding in Torah? I asked you for ANY sources I might have missed.

what in the world are you even talking about?

Do you mean to call any rambling idea “a side” that I have to consider, or do you agree that we Jews must ONLY consider the Torah that we have passed down from Sinai as per our mesorah?

@yankel-berel
> somejew should approach them like real torah judge , genuinely considering both sides …..

no, I don’t need to do this. this is NOT the chazon ish’s approach when there is clear teachings/psak from previous gedolim and there is no “two sides”. If there is another side, one that has not already been considered and answered by those gedolim, please let me know. So far, @yankel-berel, you haven’t presented to me anything that is not already answered by people YOU admit are greater than you. As far as I can see, you do not have “another side” available, just foolishness.

=================

just to keep us on track, I am waiting for you to finish and respond to the following unanswered questions:

G] I still have no idea what you are even attempting to talk about or ask here. What is your question?

H] I’ll wait for you to check the Avnei Nezer. It’s available on Hebrew Books for free. Where does the Avnei Nezer say what you claim?

=================

> he claims that the medina has to be destroyed because it was made by reshaim ….
I never claimed this.

> somejew answered that rambam is not talking about a rasha like the tsiyonim
I never answered this

> so why can that principle not apply to the medina ?
> they work hard , prepare everything , to be taken over by a tsadiq , like mashiach ?

In theory, I don’t have a problem with this. There are specific points in chazal about biyas moshiach that strongly push against what you are implying, but that is a new conversation we haven’t touched here in CR.

The earlier answer I gave to the above points did NOT talk about anything needing be destroyed nor did I mention the Rambam. What I wrote was:

Everything Hashem does is for good, even the koyach He give reshoyim. Nonetheless, we Jews are obligated to resist aveiros and push away evil, all as per the dictates of the Torah.

The zionist state is as much a preparation for moshaich as the nazi camps, and many gedolim have pointed out that they are both activities of amulek one and the same. We Jews continue to pray for the quick speedy downfall of the “Evil Nazi Death Cult” called zionism, their political state called “Israel” and its antisemitic violent army called the “IDF”.

@yankel-berel

the epithets i delivered are deserved. additionally,i don’t know who debating here is claiming to be innocent If you are indeed ignorant in a matter, don’t start arguing a random position of “sheriris liboi” and then get upset for being called out on that.

In any case, @yankel-berel, it’s now been over 20 days that you have delayed responding to my simple request to apologize for (or defend) your cruel words and baseless accusation.

I stand by my words with Torah and nothing else. When I am wrong, I admit it. That is why I am not a zionist priest like you.

Please stop avoiding the facts of our Holy Torah, do tshiva, and respond to the above questions honestly and maybe you will have a chance to get out of your mess.

@square_root
when did I “get offended and disappear”?

I was clear in what I wrote.

@yankel-berel
why would the bad character of people who disagree with me have anything to with me, my humility status, or my midos?

@yankel-berel

let me remind you of the “dan lkaf chov” words of yours that got you here:

This seems like an established pattern

A] somejew posts something extreme and objectionable

B] other posters reply and disagree

C] somejew replies and calls them priests , fools , idolaters etc

D] the other posters respond in kind and somejew receives the same vitriol back in his own face

E] somejew gets offended and disappears

F] after a while , somejew gets over it and starts afresh

G] back to A again ….

====

the only way somejew is able to disprove the above post

is by supplying a point by point, fact and logic based answer , to each and every question

without running away ….

what somejew was doing till now , was plain …. running away …

it s high time somejew is accountable for the shenanigans he is posting

meanwhile you seem to be “too busy” to admit you are wrong. I’ve always been curious, does the erev rav realize they are the erev rav, or do you really think you are jewish? but please, don’t bother answering, i don’t want you to get distracted from answering the above long-delayed response to the above.

@qwerty613

>You’re making a wrong assumption. Not every Mechallel Shabbos has the status of an Apikorus.
I didn’t say that.
The closest I probably got was:

from https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/who-is-a-jew#post-2502092
3. There is a red line of who is part of “amecha” (am yisroel/klal yisroel), and those basic requirements are 1) keeping most common mitzvos, 2) believing without doubt the 13 ikarim, 3) keeping shabbos publicly. Like any sugya, there is much beautiful Torah iyun in each part of that “red line” (what means “public”?, what are the exact terms of the ikarim?, etc) , but the red line exists whether we can identify the minutia of its precise location or not.”

@yankel-berel
sorry, you disgusting fool, being limid zchis on yidden is NOT “crooked logic”. you should stop lying about holy men and spreading kefira in their name.
you will seemingly throw anyone or anything holy “under the bus” in order to push your fake anti-torah religion. at least the kofer @rescue is honest about trying to pull his audience, R”L, away from Torah.

@yankel-berel

in case you forgot, I’m still waiting for your full response

@rescue
lol, this is (supposed to be) a jewish forum. Judaism is (and I’m eyeballing the order of your post) pro

• conformity
• alignment of attitudes, beliefs, behaviors with torah observant group
• loss of individuality
• suppressing personal identity, creativity, and perspectives (when not regulated by groupthink)
• fitting in
• loss of confidence (inwrong thought)
• groupthink
• poor decision-making, especially in high-stakes environments
• avoiding challenging the status quo
• avoiding new ideas
• stifling ‘improvements’
• inability to adapt to change
• ideological control around religious beliefs
• shutting down dissent
• echo chambers

that being said, let me emphasize that shutting down dissent is YES our responsibility when confronted with foolishness (like your post). While we don’t (and are not allowed to) choose adversity, don’t worry, we have bad people like you trying to tell us how to be Jewish. Are you going to burn us at the stake like your predecessors, or is this just a “friendly” attack?

Judaism is fully against “critical thinking”, and many seforim have been written explaining why.

We are indeed “responsible for our choices” but trust me that we know what the right thing is without your nonsense. We endorse and promote our Torah echo chamber and manage to do it without the delusions you are somehow so familiar with and wary of.

@yankel-berel

A] there are three answers to your question: 1) like the Shulchan Aruch in general, this is not an airtight inclusive list of every possible haluchic situation where one gives up their life (see Ramu here), rather the SA was written according to what was commonly applicable and commonly known haluches and their generally common psak. 2) breaking the shulosh shevios is a type of Avoda Zureh, 3) Breaking the shulosh shevios is by definition a “shaas shmaad”.

B] My “wonderful, ‘running away’ from EY idea” is simply proof that right now there is no pikiach nefesh NOW. If there WAS actually pekiach nefesh in EY, the first reaction from ANY SANE PESON would simply be to run away. this is not controversial!

I’l double down on the absurdity of your false zionist religion: if ANYONE really believed that there is NOW pekiach nefesh, there would be mass ongoing charity campaigns to support and promote jews leaving the zionist state. Instead, those crying “PEKIACH NEFESH!!! are exactly those same people crying that jews should, chalila, mass move to the zionist state from other countries!

Regarding a separate conversation about IF the zionists would disband their evil project. What that THEORETICAL means is that 1) if there would be a plan to correct the wrong of zionism and disband the IDF and the national government AND 2) there was no stable replacement government AND 3) the reaction by zionists or other evil parties would be to threaten lives and create a real pikiach nefesh situation, there SHOULD be the option either before during or after this plan to allow anyone who feels at risk to leave.

C] I’ve been explicit with my words as well as my intent.

D] No, that is not my stance, and certainly nothing I have “repeatedly claimed”. try NOT straw manning my position. If you don’t understand something I wrote, you can ask what I meant.

E] I don’t understand your question. Do you know what “haluche” is? Currently there is much psak haluche vis a vis the zionists, which a zionist kofer would transgress. The avnei nezer DOES say that one is (of course!) obligated to keep the Talmudic teaching we call the “Shulosh Sevios”, despite them not having been generally established (in his time) psak haluche. It would certainly , according to any koshe Jew and certainly the Avnei Nezer, an aveira to not keep ANY letter of the Torah including the “shulosh shevios”

F] Sounds like you are conceding the point. You earlier wrote ” the steipler clearly writes that the mere existence of the medina is not against the shavu’ot”. Now you seem to admit that STEIPLER DID NOT WRITE THAT. Is it true that you were wrong?

ALSO:
YOU have ignored the following:
>> you have never owned up to point that halacha everywhere is not decided by what would , could or should have been — only by what is …
>I have no idea what you are talking about or asking
G] Have you conceded that what you wrote here is nonsense?

>> you have never owned up to the fact that avnei nezer clearly writes that haskamat ha’umot will negate the shavu’ot
>I’ve never been asked this. where does the Avnei Nezer say this? (please quote exact line, as some of his tshivas are very long)
H] Have you conceded that AVNEI NEZER DID NOT WRITE THAT. Is it true that you were wrong?

IT’S PIKIACH NEFESH IN ZIONIST ISRAEL!!!

WE MUST ALL “Prepare to Flee To America!”

@yaakov-yosef-a

all of your hypotheticals of political involvement in dismantling the zionist state or (chsv”sh) fighting in their wars are ALL toldos of zionism, i.e. attempts to take jewish destiny in our own (physical) hands, chas v’shulem.

agudas yisroel fights zionism with zionism, something the Satmar Rebbe was adamantly outspoken against.

[this is, btw, my main kasha on NK, however to their credit they claim to not be at all political, and have no political (read: practical) agenda. instead they seem to be simply leveraging the political activities to vocalize the Torah (to be be moche, amongst other mitvos)]

@yankel-berel
i still have no idea what you are talking about. did i leave something unanswered? did I abandon some thread too early?
instead of just throwing out a baseless accusation, point out something i did or didn’t say that aligns with your “pattern”.
(I don’t care to repeat the same answers to the same questions over and over, despite your foolish desire to keep asking the exact same questions after they have been answered, such as your inability to read SH’A YD 157, with zero acknowledgment on your part to respond either admitting or arguing against those answers)

As mentioned, I believe I have been very clear about my position regarding the various threads. I believe I have been very transparent about the mokoros I have learned that support my positions and have been equally responsive in explaining other mekoros that confuse some people.

If I have failed in any of the above three things [1. clarity in position, 2. providing supporting mekoros, 3. explaining seemingly challenging mekoros] please point me to that failure and I will – IY”H – respond.

If your tactic is to just double down on your own stupidity and ignore the Torah, I can’t help you, and I don’t see a point in joining the conversational nonsense circles you build for yourself.

@yankel-berel
when did I “get offended and disappear”?

I was clear in what I wrote.

@yaakov-yosef-a

>Sorry for not being clear enough. The Maharal, according to the Vayoel Moshe…
I want to thank you for that explanation. Very well written and to the point.

@mbachur
no idea. i don’t know anything about chickens. i ask the guy selling kaporos if this a boy or girl.

i suppose you can just look at the chickens being shechted if you know the difference, or do like many erliche people and only eat chickens you witness the shechita of (a monthly event for some families)

@yaakov-yosef-a
> Did you think about that possibility?
I’m not sure what you are inserting into my words. At this point, I don’t even know what we are arguing about. You seem to be very confused about a subject that is causing you to spin your wheels in exasperation.

The category of “tinik shenishbu” is NOT a category of “in” or “out” of “amecha”, rather it is its own sugy the discusses whether o’nes actions are ones or not. A person can be otherwise “charedi” and be a “tinik shenishbu” (read o’nes) vis-a-vis any given haluche if they were raised with that mistake from their parents.

1) So, you can have a yid growing up in the jungles of the Amazon amongst mamash goyim, and he would be a “tinik shenishbu” vis-a-vis all his aveiras (with caveats that would distract from this conversation). He would also NOT be part of “amecha” in that he is not “achicha b’Torah i’mitzvos”. His status as “tinik shenishbu” would simply mean that he is not punished for the aveiras that are not his fault, like any other o’nes.

2) Alternatively, you can have a “Modern Orthodox” yid growing up in LA who keeps kosher and shabbos, hangs out in mixed company, shakes womens hands and hugs them casually, has an unfiltered smartphone, and marries a lady with a long lace-shaitel and send his kids to college (rachmunu latzlan on all of this). He would certainly agree to ALL of the 13 ikarim and keeps all the haluches as taught to him by his “conservative-friendly rabbi (sic)”. He is simply not aware that his “rabbi” is crooked in telling him all the above is okay. This person would be a “tinik shenishbu” vis-a-vis all those aveiras and also be “amecha” in that he believes all the ikarim, keeps shabbos, and keeps most mitzvas, and doesn’t do any aveiras “l’hachis”.

3) Take the above person, and instead of him believe all the 13 ikarim, he was instead taught as a child to reject the Written Torah (chalilah!) as being perfect letter for letter, and no one ever taught him different. Now, he would seemingly be a “tinik shenishbu” who is NOT part of “amecha”.

4) Take the above person, and have his local charedi rabbi inform him about the accuracy of our Torah as a fundamental of Judaism, and now if he is mekabel, he becomes part of “amecha” and otherwise (chalila) he would stay not part of “amecha” and perhaps lose the excuse of o’nes.

> YYA: Do you understand that the moment you even theoretically accept the possibility that ‘Klal Yisroel’ numbers only 7,000 people you forfeit any right to make an ‘argument from numbers’?
> YYA: I have met many people who are either Satmar Chassidim or were students of Satmar or Satmar-oriented mosdos, but I have never heard any of them ???? ????? write off 99.95% of people born to Jewish mothers as literally being Goyim. I find that telling. I also find it telling that you seem to struggle with marei mekomos from the seforim of your ‘own’ Chassidus.

This is exactly the argument I was making previously. Religious Jews CANNOT make a numbers game. Not only is it an anti-Torah concept, it doesn’t make any sense. All “orthodox” Jews reject 99.95% of people claiming to be the true “chosen nation”, including notzrim, reform, and zionists. We ALSO, as per the clear psak of Rambam, S”A, and LITERALLY EVERY OTHER MAJOR POSEK we reject all Jews who aren’t achicah b’mitzvos as NOT part of “amecha”.

This has nothing to do with the other very important sugyas of our obligation to hate and/or mekarev anyone based on our relationship with them and the ways that they present themselves to the world.

BTW I apologize that after reading what I wrote my use of “our children” seemed to imply that I send my own children there. I try very much not to talk about myself in these threads as it is immaterial, but I do not claim to be Satmar nor do I claim to send my children to “the largest Satmar mosdoses”. I intended to phrase “our children” it that was to mean “klal yisroel’s” children, meaning it’s the largest chinuch network in the world (I didn’t check any actual stats here, just basing this off the oversieded Satmar population in the world, kain yirbi).

Regarding “haluche lemayseh”, I’m not sure what haluches you are talking about. Would ANY of them drink wine whose 99.95% touched?

> Another question I wanted to ask you: ??????, what will happen to the millions of non-Frum Jews when Moshiach comes?

I have not idea what will happen when Moshiach comes beyond what is written in classic seforim. As I understand it, Moshiach will return everyone to tshiva. This will be precluded by or together with some sort of biur where the reshoyim will be destroyed. I’m not sure the timeline, only that WE will not know who is moshiach until he brings all of klal yisroel to tshiva shleima.

@mbachur
masora. ask your father or rav.

@yankel-berel
maybe just read SH’A YD 157. it does not say “only 3 hamurot(sic) are yehareig ve al yaavor”

@yaakov-yosef-a
the chidish of tinik shenishbu is that they are o’nes and NOT mazid if they are taught something heretical as “Truth” and didn’t have enough access to the real Truth that they would be obligated to recalibrate to.

once a certain threshold of exposure is passed, and this is where many struggle to delineate clearly, they become mazid if they don’t become ereliche yidden. I don’t know if such a “mazid” person would still be called a “tinok shenishbu” in common usage of the term. If you want to agree between use that “tinok shenishbu” should only mean while they are still “o’nes”, I think that would make the conversation easier.

Regardless, those “trapped” in the notzri or zionist churches I was referring to are those who are the “o’nes” type of tinok shenishbu.

> YYA: I heard years ago from my Rebbe ???? (who was a big anti-Zionist) that there are people who say this. To put it VERY mildly, he did not like the idea and said it is horrible Chinuch… This is the first time I have ever encountered anyone who admits to actually saying such a thing to his children.

what do you mean “admit”? This is something taught to our children in the largest Satmar mosdoses (amongst others), which is – I should reiterate – the largest charedi subgroup. I find it telling that you have sedarim in Vayoel Moshe and Al HaGeilah, but you have never met someone who grew up in and is a student Satmar…

Again, if there was a private channel to communicate, I would happily learn with you.

> So, let me ask you. Where does this ????? come from?
I don’t know.

> Why, in the middle of your Shabbos Seuda, do you and your children need to think of Zionists and violent death, which would probably upset your Oneg Shabbos unless you are psychopathic sadists?
It’s not a violent thought, it’s more happy unicorns and flowers as we imagine the world being purified from all their Zionist filth and guns and wars and battles against yiddishkeit, and imagining the world where Hashem’s Kisei is Shulem. Kind of like Pirim, but without being shiker.

> And if you do need to wish death upon someone in order to enjoy your chulent, so why not say ‘Amaleki’?
It’s a good question. I don’t know why they changed their name from “Amaleki” to “Zionist”. Perhaps they thought it better PR to fool the Jews, but we’re one step ahead with our chulent.

Another question: What do you think about more often – Hashem, Torah, or ?????? Zionists?
Hashem and His Torah, without a doubt.

different masorahs on which chicken breeds are kosher.

@participant
I think it obvious to any Torah educated Jew that they should never take such a government course (unless that “government”, if you can call it such, is the nuvi Melech Hamoshiach)

@yankel-berel

I don’t disagree with the Chazon Ish. I did claim some people (not major mainstream poskim, asfaik) misunderstand his tshivas at the beginning of YD. I certainly never called him, chalila, a zuken mamre.