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@user176
sorry, this is a website for Jews. Here, we follow the Torah. Please stop teaching from other religions.It’s the zionists who are pressuring Yidden to join the army… not Hamas. Hamas is not trying to get us to do any aveiras. The Zionist want us to, at least, break the Shulosh Shevios. They want us to be kofer in the concept of “am hanivchar”. They want us to be kofer in the definition of “klal yisroel”. They want us to be kofer in waiting for Moshiach. They want us to be kofer in the explicit psukim in Torah that tell us how (and how not) Hashem will take us out of gulis.
Those points are all fundamental to the zionist heresy and fundamental to participating in its army, even if it was fully managed from top to bottom by the most religious RZ galach.
This fundamental heresy is well acknowledged and embraced by the RZ thought leaders, and taught explicitly in their yeshivas. They call those who reject zionism “galut (sic) jews”. They mock those who follow the Torah as “dosim” and “sheeple” to the slaughter. They claim that those who do histadlis when the Torah requires it and reject it when the Torah forbids it are fools who need to learn how to fight for themselves. They claim that Jewish life before the zionist state was dead and empty, with no one being smart enough to realize they can just take themselves out of galus with some guns, and are baffled that the Rambam himself didn’t think of this. They claim the Jews lived for 2000 years in fear of the non jew, and regularly getting slaughtered. What was the outcome of gulis? They claim: a river of blood that only stopped when the zionist came with guns. Before zionism, the RZ galachas teach, every Jew was vulnerable to the whims of their non-Jewish neighbors and their leaders. Zionism is the upgrade, they claim, because now there is Jewish “self-determination”.
All the above is, of course, clear kefira in Torah, rejection of foundational axioms such as schar v’onesh and hishtadlis and bitachon in Hashem. The 20000 years in gulis, despite the reality that it is at times very very difficult, is a blessing straight from Hashem. Like chazal teach us, Hashem took out the fury of our zins on the woods and stones of the Beis Hamkidash (rch”l) instead of – chalilah -taking it out on us. Chazal also teach us that the long gulis is a hidden blessing in that the massive punishment due to “sonei yisroel” was broken up into many small pains over a long tie, enable us to withstand and grow in light of that tikkin.
The outcome of gulis, so far, has been 2000 years of thriving Torah, leadership, and a birir of klipah ot of the kedisha of klal yisroel. The ultimate outcome of the gulis will be moshiach triggering complete tshiva amongst all of klal yisroel, moshiach fighting the wars of gog and magog, moshiach doing kibbitz gulyos. And, moshiach will be a nuvi, similar to Moshe Rebaini, with specific miraculous features, such as being able to paskin sheilas based on smell alone. He will certainly have the basic requirements of every kosher nuvi of being a tzaddik (in keeping all mitzvos), being humble, rich, a talmid chuchem miflag. When moshiach comes, the whole world will see that the Jewish Nation is a holy nation and that our avodah of gulis, our literal mesiras nefesh to keep Torah, is what makes us beloved to Hashem. The miracles that will take place wil be greater than the supernatural events of Yestiyatz Metzroyim, and the whole world will see and aknowlege Hashem’s greatness and the greatness of being a slave to Hashem. So much so, that the non-Jews will run to join us in our bitil and service to Hashem, asking to help serve Hashem in any way possible.
Judaism rejects “self-determination”. We believe in Hashem’s Divine determination of events. A Jew is not vulnerable to attack, rather we are deeply vulnerable to our own yetzer huresh and aveiras. Ideologically, we don’t protect ourselves with guns, we protect ourselves with tshiva and bitachon in Hashem. There are times when hishtalids is required on an individual level (never on a national level in gulis, that it why we are specifically “spread out” amongst the nations). And Zionism, especially the minis called “RZ”, rejects this Judaism.
Getting back to the subject of practicing that other religion by way of enlistment in their army priesthood:
Beyond the above fundamental intrinsic incompatibility, the current implementation of the evil IDF is also deeply at odds with yiddishkeit. Problems include hischabris l’rashoyim, nivel peh, shmiras enoyim, mixing of genders, walking haughty, chikos hagoyim, bitel zman, chilil shabbos, bizoy talmideh chachumim, mesira, kashrish of food, bitul Torah, etc. And all this is issues for the best of the soldiers, the weakest ones are opening up intense vulnerabilities in z’nis and kefira by way of leaving the confines of a well controlled yiddish enviroment and it social support structure for kedisha. And all this is applicable across pathways of IDF service. Specific paths involve even more issirim, such as – chas v’shulem – going into combat is putting oneself in makom sakuneh, killing innocent jews by accident, killing innocent non-jews on purpose, ba’al tashchis in bombing building and destroying property.
Many non-Jewish readers will say “well, this is the known cost of doing war”, and the Torah response is “who said you should go to war? move away and don’t do those aveiras”. In the same vein, I would say that if you believe there are non-military populations of Jews in danger, you should be active in helping them move away to safer lands. I don’t believe, and I don’t think any one reasonable thinks, that Jews today living in EY are in acute danger that demand allowing chilil shabbos or other issirim. However, if I am wrong and someone out there in CR thinks that Jews there are really in danger, I reiterate the above: save their lives by influencing and raising money for them to emigrate elsewhere.
Taking this a step further: chazal are very explicit in many places that breaking the shevios directly causes events like, chas v’shulem, a holocaust. Jews – chalila – participating in the IDF is something that truly puts more Jewish lives in danger. While perhaps counterintuitive to those corrupted by zionism, this is what the Torah teaches in many places.
So, putting this all together:
- The ideological underpinnings (the intent) of Zionism is kefira in Torah.
- The IDF in ANY form is the implementation of that Zionist active kefira, i.e “shmad”.
- The current reality of IDF implementation involves numerous issirim, including shfichas dumim and giliy arayis and chilil shabbos kodesh
As such, one is obligated to give up their lives not to join that evil nazi group, as is stated explicitly in the SA above.
Here is what ChatGPT said:
You’re asking: **Is there an example today of a Western country—like Britain—“ruling” a place whose population practices a different religion and has a markedly different culture?**
The short answer is: **yes**, but only in the sense of overseas territories—not independent countries. Presently, **no Western power governs an independent country** whose population has a different religion and culture. However, several Western nations **do maintain control over overseas territories** with distinct cultures and religions. Here’s how that breaks down:
—
### U.K. Overseas Territories
#### What Are They?
* The **United Kingdom** continues to govern **14 British Overseas Territories (BOTs)**—not independent nations, but territories under UK sovereignty. These include places like **Bermuda**, the **Falkland Islands**, **Gibraltar**, **Turks and Caicos**, **Anguilla**, and others.([House of Lords Library][1], [Wikipedia][2])
* They’re not countries in their own right; they remain under UK oversight for defense, foreign affairs, and constitutional matters, while often retaining internal self-governance.([House of Commons Library][3], [Wikipedia][2])#### Cultural and Religious Differences
Many of these territories have populations with **religious beliefs and cultural practices distinct** from those of the UK:
* **Gibraltar**, for example, has primarily Spanish-influenced culture and a majority Roman Catholic population, differing from the UK’s largely secular or Protestant heritage.([Monarchies Wiki][4], [Wikipedia][2])
* The Caribbean territories—**Turks and Caicos**, **Anguilla**, **Montserrat**, **British Virgin Islands**—are culturally Caribbean, with populations predominantly of African descent, Christian denominations, and culturally distinct from Great Britain.([Fencu][5], [House of Commons Library][3])
* Even the **Falkland Islands** have a small, uniquely islander culture with deep ties to their local heritage.([Wikipedia][6])—
### Commonwealth Realms (Symbolic Rule)
There remains another form of vestigial “Western rule” via the **Commonwealth Realms**—countries that are fully independent but recognize the **British monarch** as a ceremonial head of state:
* As of 2025, there are **15 Commonwealth realms**, including **Canada**, **Australia**, **New Zealand**, **Jamaica**, **Papua New Guinea**, **Solomon Islands**, **Belize**, **Tuvalu**, and others.([Wikipedia][7], [EmpPaths & Travel][8])
* These are sovereign nations with their own governments, cultures, and religions. Recognizing the British monarch is largely symbolic and does **not** imply governance or cultural dominance.
* Many of these countries practice religions and cultures quite different from the UK—**Papua New Guinea** with traditional and Christian beliefs, **Solomon Islands** with Melanesian cultures, **Jamaica** with Afro-Caribbean traditions, etc.In fact, some realms are moving away entirely from even this symbolic link. Very recently, **Grenada** passed legislation to **remove the oath of allegiance** to King Charles III from its constitution, a step toward abolishing the monarch as head of state.([The Guardian][9])
—
### Summary
| Type | Examples | Cultural/Religious Difference? | Nature of Rule |
| ———————- | ——————————————— | —————————— | ————————————————– |
| **Overseas Territory** | Gibraltar, Falklands, Bermuda, Caribbean BOTs | Yes | UK retains authority over defense, foreign affairs |
| **Commonwealth Realm** | Canada, Papua New Guinea, Jamaica, etc. | Yes | Independent nations; monarch is symbolic only |* There are **no contemporary examples** where a Western nation directly “rules” an independent country with a different religion and culture.
* The only current parallels are in colonial-era holdovers—**overseas territories**—where different cultures and religions do exist under UK sovereignty.
* And increasingly, even symbolic ties like those of Commonwealth Realms are being dissolved in favor of full republican sovereignty.So, @yankel-berel,
can you now answer my question as to what this matters? what is the point you are trying to make and why do you keep asking me this random question?@mdd1
Amulek is Amulek… I’m not sure how you call any of this exaggeration.@ZSK
I think “Evil Nazi Death Cult” might have been a better name. Your thoughts?@yankel-berel
I don’t understand your question, your “challenge”.
What is the claim and why is your question a challenge to it?@yankel-berel
I answered every one of your questions.SA does NOT say what you want it to say. It says
[taken from Hebrew Books and transcribided without Ramu for brevity]
יורה דעה סימן קנז: על איזה עבירות ייהרג ואל יעבור, ובו ג’ סעיפים
סעיף אכל העבירות שבתורה, חוץ מעבודה זרה, גילוי עריות ושפיכות דמים, אם אומרים לו לאדם שיעבור עליהם או ייהרג, אם הוא בצינעה – יעבור ואל ייהרג. ואם ירצה להחמיר על עצמו וליהרג, רשאי, אם העובד כוכבים מכוון להעבירו על דת.
ואם הוא בפרהסיא, דהיינו בפני עשרה מישראל, חייב ליהרג ולא יעבור, אם העובד כוכבים מכוון להעבירו על דת .אבל אם אינו מכוון אלא להנאתו, יעבור ואל ייהרג. ואם היא שעת הגזירה , אפילו על ערקתא דמסאנא ייהרג ואל יעבור.
ובעבודת כוכבים, גילוי עריות ושפיכות דמים, אפילו בצינעה ושלא בשעת הגזירה, ואפילו אין העובד כוכבים מכוון אלא להנאתו – ייהרג ואל יעבור.and the translation:
Yoreh De’ah Siman 157: On Which Transgressions One Should Be Martyred Rather Than Transgress, and It Contains Three Sections
Section 1
Regarding all transgressions in the Torah, with the exception of idolatry, forbidden arayos, and bloodshed: If a person is told to transgress them or be killed, and the transgression is committed in private ( b’tzinah ), they should transgress and not be killed. However, if they wish to be stringent upon themselves and be martyred, they may do so, provided the non-Jew intends to make them abandon the Torah.
If the situation is public ( b’farhesia ), meaning in the presence of ten Jews, one is obligated to be martyred rather than transgress,
if the gentile intends to make them abandon the Torah. But if the gentile’s intention is merely for their own pleasure, one should transgress and not be killed. If it is a time of decree ( sh’as hagezirah ), one must be martyred rather than transgress, even for the sake of a sandal strap.
And concerning idolatry, forbidden arayos, and bloodshed, even when committed in private and not during a time of decree, and even if the gentile’s intention is merely for their own pleasure, one must be martyred and not transgress.
@yankel-berel
I tried to give you a chance, many chances, to save face instead of pushing zionist lies about Judaism while pushing Jews to go against the Torah.
Next time, please, learn the sugya before “teaching” it.If you still have any questions for me, I’ll tr to answer. But, again, please try to learn some Torah.
Hakatan’s defence of Hashem, Torah, and Am Yisroel is refreshing and much needed in CR. If he prevents even one fool from joining the death cult army called “IDF” he will have saved a whole world.
@yankel-berel
I have no issue with the avnei nezer. many quote him, including in vayoel moshe, and no one is brothered by what he writes as his conclusion is as clear and obvious as his introduction which is that the shevios should be followed or the punishment is great.Reread what I wrote as, like most things in Torah, you aren’t paying attention.
The full explanation of Vayoel Moshe in the binding nature of the Shulosh Shevios is very much in line with and at times explicitly built off the aforementioned exploitation of the Avnei Nezer.
I am not bothered, of course, by the Torah, I am bothered by your brazen willingness to be completely dishonest about what that Torah says.
You are not being honest about what is clearly written in Shulchan Aroch, not honest about Avnei Nezer, not honest about Vayoel Moshe, and ultimately you are not honest about what the Gemureh itself originally taught us.Your statements about any of these sources are completely incoherent even when taken at face value in the original texts! Even more so when you consider them in broader context of each other and even more so with how the many other authorities learn any of them!
Again, I point you to your brazed lie about what the Shulchan Aroch writes in the siman you referenced regarding “vyaharog v’al yaavor. Please, go ahead and quote those three or four lines of Shulhcna Aroch and see if it aligns your anti-Torah claims.
the army is the shmad. going to the army is the issur itself, it is the “avoda” of the “avoda zureh”.
So, is your question about if “eliyahu hanavi promises that this person will not be shmadded .” can he still TRY to shmad but he won’t be successful? like he will get in a crash on the way to the army, or the zionist state will disband before his enlistment date?
@chaim87
thank you for sharing your kefira publicly for all to see. if you don’t care about the Torah that was given at Mount Sinai, and your only interest is whatever a “holy Jews says”, you are well beyond the threshold of traditional Judaism and the issurim of “ba’al tosif”.@yankel-berel
your dishonesty smells.you don’t care what the SA says. You don’t care what the Avnei Nezer says. Anyone with any integrity in Torah can see clearly that what you are saying is NOT what they wrote. This fact, obvious to anyone who has yiras shomayim and can learn those seforim, is buttresses by the additional fact that ZERO later authorities veer from that obvious reading. These same various “Gedolim” – across all normative Torah camps (i.e. Chassidish, Litvish, Sefardi, Chabad, Breslev, Brisk, etc) all confirm without hesitation the obligation to follow the restrictions of the three shevios.
It is true that there is sometime confusion and r”l mistakes in keeping those guidelines, and the tragedies have been devastating, yet everyone of any Torah authority understand the well sources and undisputed general principal that we Jews must not break the three shevios.
@ujm
some meforashim say it was 1 in 600,0000@damoshe
Rav Ovadia Yosef already published without hesitation that what you are saying is a complete misread of the writing of R’ Chaim Vital. Again, you will not find any torah source that says differently on how we understand the writings of R’ Chaim Vital and the Ari ztz”l.Looking past the strong evidence that the letter was forged R’ Meir Simcha (the original was never seen by any students or any correspondences. it was only published by a mizrachi newspaper with a, uh how can i say it politely, questionable timeline.), the letter certainly doesn’t claim that the oaths are not binding, rather the balfour declaration would be an exception to their otherwise binding nature. Of course, the Balfour Declaration never came to fruition and the British rescinded their questionable intent to allow a zionist state. The point here, of course, is that the Ohr Someyach explicitly held the shevios are binding.
R Klugar ztz”l is also explicit that the Bnei Efroyim were killed for violating the oaths even after the Mitzrim violated theirs. R Klugar explains that, however, one is not bound by the issur of davening too much for moshiach when under duress. You can find and learn it inside if you want to understand the distinction.
So, there you have it.
There are STILL no recognized Gedolim in the Torah world that claim the false narrative you are repeating here. The “question” of the “shalosh shevios” is a non-question in any bais medrash in klal yisroel.@keith
while i respects, perhaps, your sincerity. I have to push back that what you are pushing is NOT ahavas chinam but sinas chinam.
There is NO place for loving apikorosim or minim or mechalilei shabbos b’farhesia in our Holy Torah.I mean that literally. There is no such thing in mainstream classic Torah seforim. Anything you might come across that talks about loving reshoyim, is clearly noted on page that this of course does not mean those who are beyond the pale – and that pale is always defined in line with the Rambam (for example) who spells it out in hilchos mamarim.
Even the Chofetz Chaim in that sefer he is named after is clear about the obligation to fully hate reshoyim. He also brings this in his sefer “ahavas chessed”.
Why is there no source otherwise? because it is a clear pasuk in tehillim and it would be kefira to reject is (as there are no sources in chazal that break away from the simple meaning, rather they expound on the obvious reading).
Loving reshoyim is the same mida as hating tzadikim. We are obligated to be mebazeh and mocheh publicly, and that is the Jewish way of fixing “sinas chinam”. By loving yidden BECAUSE they are yidden (partners in keeping Torah) and hating those who rebel against Hashem.
@damoshe
You have posted nonsent, at best misguided nonsense, but you say things that have no place in Torah.
I will you give you an opportunity to show your receipts:1) where did “R’ Chaim Vital, R’ Meir Simcha of Dvinsk and R’ Shlomo Kluger.” publish a shita that the “three oaths” of gemara kesibos page 111 are as a rule NOT to be kept?
2) There are three relevant prohibitions included in the “Three Oaths”: A) dechikas hakeitz B)shelo ya’ali bachomeh C) hisgaris baimos.
Please source in seforim ANY coherent shita express that doesn’t have zionism breaking at least ONE of them.I posit that, despite there being some edge case debate on limits of the prohibitions of some of the three oaths, there is simply NO WAY to claim that zionism doesn’t violate at least one of them.
I continue to claim that ALL RABONIM – even kofrim like shmook – say that 1) we are obligated generally to keep the “three shevios” and 2) the zionists certainly violated and continue to violate them.
The best of the RZ galachs claim a “hora’as shueh” to battle Hashem’s Torah and join the IDF, similar to the excuses yashke’s students claimed to worship that moshiach sheker.
SPOILER ALERT: Torah leaned ‘l’shma’ doesn’t protect reshoyim like apikorsim, tinukei shenishbu, or other mechalile shabbos b’farhesya. It certainly doesn’t strengthen or protect the political zionist state and their rejection of Divine gezeiras hagulis.
So, to correct so much your zionist heresy that your bad chinuch (or bad choices) has brought you, let me take it piece by piece:
@simcha613 you said:the obvious problems that the Charedim want exemptions for everyone and not just those learning
this is not a problem. this is a feature of being Jewish: we want to rescue ALL Jews from slavery to zionists. is this not obvious?
@simcha613 you said:or that learning doesn’t seem to replace hishtadlus in other areas like parnassah, shalom bayis, voting, and protesting.
you are confusing “histadlis” and other things. “shalom bayis” is not histadlis, it’s a mitzvah on its own. protesting is not hishtadlis, its an outgrowth of the obligation to be publicly mocheh. for parnsasa and health, we Jews have as part of the Torah clear guidence that we are at times obligated to participate in those things in the natural way as an expression of our eminah and bituchon. If the Torah hadn’t told us explicitly, for example, to go to a doctor, it would have been absolutly fobidden as a abhorent breach in our designation as a holy nation.
None of this has to do with the seperate obligation to learn Torah.
@simcha613 you said:Let’s take it as a given that learning Torah adds to our protection and is a component of our military defense.
This is zionist nonsense. Hashem protects the nation of Klal Yisroel from destruction in gulis(not the nation called Lebanon or Britain or Midinat-Yisrael). All mitzvos, especially learning Torah, give merit to Jewish individuals, families, and groups that participate in those mitzvos. This merit is primarily reward in the next world, but may have secondary positive effects in this physical world, sometimes leading to good to Jewish host cities and countries. All of this is the Jewish principle of Schar-v-Onesh, something that Zionism rejects and replaces with heretical “military hishtadlooot(sic)”
@simcha613 you said:Personally, I believe this. It’s part of our Mesorah.
Yes your “mesora” straight form Herzl to the Pope to @simcha613. In contrast to your very strange and evil religion, I will continue to answer here as per -l’havdil- classic Torah teachings.
@simcha613 you said:The big problem is that it’s a very vague statements and WE DO NOT KNOW HOW IT WORKS. And this vague concept is being used as a reason for not drafting more Charedim, increasing the defense burden on others. I’ve seen posters post here that Charedim need to do a better job explaining that this is why Charedim don’t draft. But what’s to explain? There is no in depth analyses of how it works or what we need like there is in every other area of halacha!
…this is onlly confusing to you because you are confusing politics – which is by nature dishonest and manipulative – with Torah which is well documented and clear in 99.9% of situations. All the propoganda you are spouting started in and is only sourced in zionist political sources – like mk’s and the like. You will not find any Torah sources that explain how to undrstand zionism and zionist militarism within Torah because zionism is a different religion.
@square_root
This is incredible! Now tell us about how great the Catholic church was at inspiring the many now-orthodox Jews that passed through there!
Oh, I know, let’s all kasher the Indian ashrams that fueled a whole generation of Baalei Teshiva!But, let’s be honest. There are many great soldiers who never (yet!) become baalei teshiva, but at least they are sacrificing themselves for Baal!
/s
@smerel
it’s very simple Xtianity long ago stopped claiming (in a meaningful way, especially vis-a-vis common judaism) that it is the real Judaism.
Zionism, on the other hand, still claims itself a valid form of (or at least compatible with) Judaism.That prefaning of the holy makes it much worse than just going of to India and, chv”sh, worshiping a getchke.
This might allow the argument that Jews for Zionism is the same evil as Jews for J.
(neither are great methods of kiruv)@yankel-berel
did you even read the SA you keep referencing, because it says nothing like you say it does when you say “Tur , sh’a and nosei keilim in YD 156 are clearly CONTRADICTING maharal . They clearly state that that all mitsvot besides for the three hamurot , including the oaths , is yaavor veal yiehareig.”I’ve been debating if it’s permitted for me to respond to your earlier question, because I can’t figure out if your just a well meaning am hauretz who can’t read or a insincere masis iadiach ready to deface the Torah to defend your zionist god.
So, I’ll ask you to quote the actual SA (please, the whole not so long siman) and explain why you find it is so difficult to align it with the maharal.
@yaakov-yosef-a
you are missing the key point that being zionist is specifically לועג על דברי חכמים.
@smerel
it is obvious that being zionist is worse than being xtian, both for the rushe and for the yiddishe tzibor.
@damoshe
i agree that these stories mean nothing except to strengthen what is already taught in Torah.Claiming that any zionist (especially a RZ galach) brought someone closer to Torah is like claiming the Mitzrim got the Jews to really daven. We cannot possibly know how great the damage being done by every money paid by zionists into otherwise kosher institutions. Nonetheless, we can be certain that we Jews would be better off if they had never started their war against Judaism, and we can be certain that we would be better off if they would disappear today, just as we daven three times a day for their quick peaceful downfall and destruction.
@mdd1
I’m not the one dragging Rav Hirsh shlit”a’s name through the mud and claiming/implying that he is establishing a norm for good bucherim to join the army if they feel like it.THAT is being motzie shem ra. I am just pointing out the absurdity of believing the OP article as written.
Regardless, I am not trying to convince apikorusim to leave their getchke, I’m only trying to defend the kavod HaTorah in this public space as well as support those kosher Jews who might be confused by the rampant kefira taught by “well-meaning” notzrim/zionists/whatever-they-call-themselves.
I don’t know if Rav Dessler wrote that, but either way it’s kefira in the Torah. It’s simply not “our state”, it’s not now and it never has been.
@yankel-berel
let @HaKatan post his source for his statement about celebrating the “Nakba”. I posted the source for those asking where it is written that the Chazon Ish said that the wine of a RZ is yayin nesech.I asked chat GPT your question:
did the mo’etsete of aguda in 1937 agree to the Peel proposal of establishment of 2 states in palestine ?
and the answer it gave:
No, the **Mo’etzet Gedolei HaTorah of Agudat Yisrael** (Council of Torah Sages of Aguda) **did not agree** to the **Peel Commission proposal** in 1937.The **Peel Commission**, appointed by the British government, recommended for the first time the **partition of Mandatory Palestine** into two states—one Jewish and one Arab. While the **Zionist leadership** debated the proposal (with some supporting it conditionally), **Agudat Yisrael**, which represented a non-Zionist Orthodox Jewish position, **rejected the proposal**.
The **Mo’etzet Gedolei HaTorah** did not support the idea of partitioning the land or establishing a secular Jewish state, which they saw as incompatible with Torah values. Their position was rooted in a religious worldview that rejected secular nationalism and emphasized waiting for **divine redemption** rather than political statehood.
So, to summarize:
**No**, the **Mo’etzet Gedolei HaTorah of Aguda** did **not agree** to the Peel Commission's proposal in 1937.
Now, I obviously don’t trust chatgpt without evidence, so let me ask you if you know of any sources that would support the claim that Agudah endorsed the “2-state” recommendation of the Peel Commission?
I’m sure these were fine fine bucherim. and the rosh yeshiva heard their cries of “we’re so unfulfilled serving Hashem, maybe we can server other gods?”, and the venerable Rosh Hayeshiva said to them with loving eyes, “yes, you may join the forces of evil and cause more bloodshed. go forth and bring violence to the world!”
I recall hearing that at his Shalosh Seudos tish in the Yeshiva, Rabbi Hirsh called out “Come and hear the new path! the salve for anyone who feels moderate discomfort in the study halls: grab a gun and risk your life for political power. This is the Torah (sic) way! This is how we shall send our children to die al kiddush Hashem(sic)! And then, no one will ever dare suffer ‘spiritual unfulfillment’ or ”financial hardships’.”
Yes this was all supposedly by his Shalosh Seudos tish, as reported by very very charedi Rabbi Yonatan Even-Hapina, a prolific online commentator and avid artscroll reader. It’s a shame his brilliant reporting was not sourced as I would love to interview the bucherim.
Oh, never mind, they died in battle. No, not the battle with the yetzer hureh, they died because the zionist commander sent them on a suicide mission as the state needed some tragic headlines to put pressure on the USA for better bomb support. Unfortunately news of their deaths didn’t get picked up in the press, but the good news is there are many more soldiers waiting in line for their next orders, so we can expect the bomb agreement eventually.
/s
and in english:
One Who Doubts the Words of the Sages Defiles Wine Through Contact
In one conversation, [the Chazon Ish] exclaimed: Anyone who suggests that even a single statement of Chazal is “not to be taken literally” (lav davka), is considered one who “cuts down the plantings” (mekatzetz b’netiot), a metaphor for heresy. He added that the “intermediate” man (beinoni) is compelled to adopt such a position when he aligns himself [with skeptics].
He was also meticulous not to eat poultry slaughtered by a certain rabbi, a renowned expert slaughterer and inspector (shochet u’vodek), who was suspected of belonging to the aforementioned type of “intermediates.”
Our master, Rabbenu [the Chazon Ish], consistently maintained that a person with a distorted outlook is more potent in rendering wine ritually impure through contact than one who publicly desecrates the Sabbath. The venerable Rabbi Shmaryahu Greineman, of blessed memory, testified that he heard this stated in his name. He further related an incident from Rabbenu’s time in Vilna. During that period, a brilliant scholar (lamdan muflag) would lodge in his room and would honor him each Friday with a bottle of wine. This scholar would often discuss matters of Torah with Rabbenu. On one occasion, they brought up the statement of Chazal concerning Og, king of Bashan, who picked up a mountain with the intent to hurl it upon the Israelite camp, and the miracle that occurred when ants hollowed out its peak, causing it to become entrapped around his neck as if in a collar. The young man remarked, “Presumably, these words were stated in the language of poetic allegory and exaggeration (melitzah v’haflagah)…” Rabbenu’s countenance darkened, and he said to him cryptically, “For the coming Sabbath, do not bring wine with you…”
[The Chazon Ish] was present at the kiddish of a rabbi from the Mizrachi movement, and Rabbenu [the Chazon Ish] was in attendance. That rabbi sought to honor Rabbenu by having him recite Kiddush. [The Chazon Ish] responded to him, “This is the first time I am hearing that a Mizrachi rabbi does not render his own wine forbidden by contact…!?”. (As related by the great Rabbi Shmaryahu Greineman, of blessed memory).
Thus writes Rabbenu in one of his letters: “We recoil upon hearing the sound of doubt concerning the words of Chazal, whether in Halakha or Aggadah, as the sound of blasphemy רח”ל. One who deviates from this, according to our tradition, is considered a heretic regarding the words of Chazal. His ritual slaughter is deemed nevelah, he is invalid to serve as a witness, and more. In the early days of the peverse, fifty or sixty years ago, when the majority of the people were observant of the commandments, the perverse would begin by supporting themselves with such doubtful matters. The Chareidim would distance themselves from the spirit of heresy that emanated from them. The entire ‘free’ generation [of today] consists mostly of the children and grandchildren of those fathers and grandfathers.” (Kovetz Igrot Chazon Ish, Part I, Letter 15).
Here is the quote from Maaseh Ish, Book 1, page 221-222:
המפסק בדברי חז”ל – אוסר יין במגעו
בשיחה אחת התבטא: כל האומר שיש מחלוקת אפילו דיבור אחד שהוא “לאו דוקא”, הרי זה מקצץ בנטיעות, והאיש “הבינוני” מוכרח לומר כך כשמצטרף. אף נזהר מלאכול עופות שנשחט ע”י רב פלוני, שו”ב מומחה ואומן יד, שנחשד בהשתייכות ל”בינונים” מהטיפוס הנזכר.
רבינו גרס בעקביות, שאדם המסולף בדעתו, גרע ממחלל שבת לטומא יין במגע. הגיד שמריהו גריינימן זצ”ל, שהעיד כך בשמו. הוסיף וסיפר על התבטאות רבינו בתקופה וילנא. באותו זמן נהג להתארח אצלו בחדר למדן מופלג, שנהג לכבדו בבקבוק יין מדי יום שישי. הוא היה מרבה לשוחח עם רבינו בדברי תורה, ופעם העלו את דברי חז”ל, בעומק מלך הבשן שקרר כדי להשליכו על מזבח יהשראלי, ונעשה גם שנמלים חררו את פסגתו ונתלה על ראשו בגלגול. והעיר על כך הבחור: מסתמא נאמרו הדברים בלשון מליצה והפלגה… פניו של רבינו קדרו ואמר לו במרמז: “לשבת הבאה אל תביא עמך יין…”
היה קודש אצל בת של רב מאנשי המזרחי, ורבינו הגיע לשם. אותו רב ביקש לכבד את רבינו לעשות קידוש. ואמר לו: פעם ראשונה שאני שומע
שרב מזרחי אינו אוסר את יינו במגע…!? (מהג”ר שמריהו גריינימן זצ”ל).וכך כותב רבינו בא’ מאגרותיו: “נרתעים אנחנו לשמוע קול ספק בדברי חז”ל, בין בהלכה בין באגדה, בשמועה של גידוף רח”ל, והנוטה מזה הוא לפי קבלתנו ככופר בדברי חז”ל, ושחיטתו נבלה, ופסול לעדות, ועוד. ובראשית הנליזה לפני נ’ ס’ שנה, אשר רוב העם היו שומרי מצוה, היו הנלוזים מתחילים להתמך על הדברים המפוקפקים מעין אלה והחרדים דברו ית’ היו מרחיקים את רוח הכפירה הנודף מהם, וכל הדור החפשי הם על הרוב מבניהם ומנכדיהם של האבות והזקנים האלה” (קוב”א ח”א ס’ ט”ו).<blockquote/>
@anonymous-jew you wrote:
With regard to Israel, you can’t have it both ways. If it’s not a Jewish government, you can’t
refuse to serve if drafted by claiming a status of sitting and learningThe only reason a Jew listens to any non-Jewish government is because our Torah teaches us to. Our only obligation is to Hashem, so only if He tells us to do something do we do it.
If the Torah says a certain government is NOT legitimate it does NOT teach us to follow its laws.
This is very common in the laws of shmad, where there is an explicit rejection of any “dinei dmalchsei dine” when the government is actively challenging our Torah obligations.
@hakatan
thank you (again!) for spending the time putting into words what is both obvious and laborious to spell out over and over. I hope the readers, including myself, will take the Torah teachings of our Gedolim to heart and the klipa will be soon removed and destroyed.@yankel-berel you wrote:
No, it says plainly – do it. Fight . Save the people .
I there would be a caveat , SHULHAN ARUCH or one of the other commentators would have said : STOP , only if this is bir’shut hamelechwhy did not anyone say one word ????
no, it says plainly that carrying weapons is not chilil shabbos. at no point does SA tell Jews to fight.
@yankel-berel you wrote:Al korchach that p/n is doche anything which is not part of the hamurot.
no, there is no hechrach here. if there is please spell it out.
you seem to be blissfully ignorant that the shalosh shavios are all specifically limits to Jewish action in the face of dinei nafashos. i.e. they all specifically tell us what we are NOT allowed to do to save Jewish lives from the difficulty of gulis.this is besides the explicit torah taught by the maharal that the dinim of shallsh shevios is “yaharog v’al y’avor”, which specifically means they are not pushed off for pikiach nefesh.
@yankel-berel you wrote:not haluche” is a language also used by Satmar Rebbe
siman 80 of the first maamar
@yankel-berel you wrote:who mentions bichlal ‘kofer betorat moshe here ?
how does that come in to the picture at all
if someone rejects any of the torah sh’bksav or torah sh’baal peh, they are kofe in Toras Moshe. Every pasuk and ever word in the Torah is specifically meant to teach us how to think, speak, and act. Every paskuk and every word in the Torah is a Jewish persons inheritance that we have been promised access to “as much as our hand can reach”, each person according to their level. If a part of Torah is only understood by Gadolim, we accept it as students. Veering from any of this is rejection of Toras Moshe.
@yankel-berel you wrote:chazal say a person should not get angry
chazal also say one should not 4 amot in reshut harabimboth are chazal
one is halacha
one is notbig difference between the two
taking your frame at face value without per se agreeing to it,
they would BOTH still be obligatory.
One must accept both statements of Chazal as both true and completely applicable to one’s life.One should not carry things in reshis harabim on Shabbos.
One should not get angry.
One who, chas v”shulem, does any of these things will be punished.
One who refrains from doing these things will be rewarded.
@yankel-berel you wrote:no publication was to my knowledge ever published refuting his claims
according to your reasoning , his discovery remains halacha psuka for klal yisrael.
this is pure am harutzes. There were many many consistent published rejections of wearing the Radziner techeles. The Rebbe of Jerusalem shlit”a explains this in the first chelek of his Tshivos v”Hanhugos , siman 26.
Of course, if there was no psak against his very well known and clearly reasoned psak, it would indeed be binding.
@yankel-berel you wrote:all talmidei hahamim and rabanim read it
and did not accept his claims
except they all did accept his “claims”.
First, the sefer Vayoel Moshe wasn’t groundbreaking in Torah claims, rather it was a reinforcement of teachings of both many contemporaries of the Satmar Rebbe and a reinforcement of the many primary authorities he quotes in the sefer Vayoel Moshe. It is similar to the sefer Chofetz Chaim that did not innovate, rather it simply reinforced and clarified. (with the aforementioned caveats of specific halachik applications in VM that were indeed argued and rejected by some contemporaries. from this you also see what they DIDN’T argue with).As such, up to me writing this today, you will NOT FIND ONE accepted authority who has published an argument against Vayoel Moshe.
@yankel-berel you wrote:you [plural] convince yourselves of your shita kdosha ‘s infallibility
you elevate your shita kdosha into the league of the 13 ani ma’amins
you sidestep any challenge to your understanding
and then you label anyone who disagrees as a kofer
I have not and continue to not be speaking about any “shita kdosha”.
A “shita” implies there are two sides. The rejection of Zionism and the
obligation to daven for the dismantling of their evil state is an direct expression
of the 13 ikarim.This is the same for every moshiach sheker: the notzri, sha”tz, etc. Rejecting yashke is not
“a shita”, it’s directly tied to fundamentals of Judaism, such that if anyone would claim that you can
me a Jew for J (or Jew for Z), that person would necessarily be a kofer. (if they themselves were a Jew for J,
they would be a min, etc).
So too, if you start quoting english Artscroll biographies to try to claim that R’ Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg ztz”l supported
(chas v’shulem) Jews for J, I would say you are a crazy masis imasiach and you should be mevazeh talmideh chahumim with such nonsense. If you doubled down, and said “No, here’s a letter he wrote to a priest” and “here is a quote from a ben bayis who became a known notzri”, and “read what he wrote on parshas Behaloscha!” I would say, “all you might accomplish is convince people that R’ Pinchas was (chalila v’chas) a secret notzri, but you will never convince a Jew with yirash shomayim that this avoida zureh is kosher!”
@yankel-berel you wrote:and to top it off when people are too intimidated to argue
you proclaim victory as if this shita kdosha is undisputed and accepted halacha
with as ironclad proof , obviously no one is arguing ….
again, I am a believer in the Torah, and the Torah is well known and published.
I will not accept another “Torah” based on am harutes speculation about current events, rather I will look
to accepted Torah sources for how to understand the world.
As such, I don’t “claim victory”, only because there is not debate to begin with.
@yankel-berel you wrote:why do you have this ga’ava dik approach of “If you don’t understand something, come to it with the humility of someone who know that the teacher is correct, but the student simply hasn’t yet grasped.”
I was not referring to myself (obviously?) as the teacher. I was referring to your rejection of the gemureh in ksivos, rejection of the maharal as mentioned, and really the blithe rejection of the dozens and dozens of makoros in referenced in Vayoel Moshe (many ma’marei chazal and psukim of tanach!) WITHOUT ANY COUNTER except your own claims of “not MY shita”. [and, when I say “no counter”, I mean published teachings of accepted Gadolim, as well expressed in my other post here in CR if anyone knows any published counter to VM]
@yankel-berel you wrote:maybe it is you who has not grasped what rov talmidei hahamim grasped already ?
maybe it is YOU who should come to it with the humility of someone who know that the teacher is correct, but the student simply hasn’t yet grasped ?
If you have a kosher well known teacher to learn Torah from, I will be happy to learn. I have searched “high and low” and have not foud anyone (as mentioned above and through these forums ad nauseum)
@yankel-berel you wrote:we are arguing about the proper pshat and how to apply it to one of the biggest problems of our time
why all those condescending remarks ?
why insinuate that your debater is a kofer ?
is it because you are running out of “on topic real arguments” directly relating to the subject at hand ?
—
you should know – I may write in strong terms , but always aim at the subject at hand
I may employ rhetoric , but always highlighting the subject which at the center of the debate.
and not baseless insinuations that you are a kofer ….
I really don’t understand the disconnect ,and it seems to me that you are completely missing the
kefira intrinsic in zionisim and intrinsic in the “state of israel”.
and, I’m not using those word beyond their normal understood usage: real hardcore no-olam-habu 100% kefira.Explaining it is not hard to do, but the resistance (because of propaganda and yetzer hureh and shoyched) makes
people cry out nonsense like “you want all the jew in israel to (chsv”sh) die??!!”.I don’t know if this is understood without my saying it, but the sefer Vayoel Moshe spend a lot of ink answering up
the many pseudo-lumdishe questions people like yourself might have. If you are indeed approaching this sigya to understand the Torah behind it, learn the sefer! It’s crazy to me that you would be offended and angry at my accusation that you are a kofer without learning the actual Torah behind my claim to clarify if perhaps I am correct! Putting internet argument aside, do you want to live your life a kofer because you were afraid or didn’t have time to learn the sefer about the thing you emotionally care about? Do you really want to go to bais din shel malah and be thrown in the pit with all the galochs and murderers because you refused to take the Torah seriously?If you would do any of that, well first thing is you would join my team. But besides that, you would be able to formulate real questions and hopefully learn real answers. But, instead you are currently an am huuretz who says “when I meet talmidei chachumim I want to bite them!”.
I honestly wish there was a platform to take this conversation private and in real time, instead of this discombobulated delayed public comment board that causes any conversation to become quickly derailed.
@mbachur
> I don’t think NYS or Lebanon shuts down their buses and their government offices on Yom KippurFirst, what source in Torah do you have that makes this a meaningful distinction. Is your implication that a government that keeps Torah law is a “Jewish” government? So, which governments are the ones keeping more Jewish law?
BTW I know places that indeed do this today exactly as described -closing government offices and public transport on Yom Kippur. Can they now claim to represent Jews worldwide as their leaders? Are you now obligated to support that government? Are you obligated to join their army?
This is all nonsense grasping at straws to try to kasher the zionist chazer.
@yechiell
With Moshe, G-d said fight that war.With the Zionists (may they be quickly destroyed, amen), G-d said don’t fight that war and don’t have anything to do with evil people that do fight wars.
Certain people in this Coffee Room never stop
attacking the Chareidim and never stop
attacking “The Ka’noim”.Those never-ending attacks are a very big mistake,
and only cause Jews to HATE EACH OTHER
more than before, and they also push us closer
to a JEWISH CIVIL WAR, with Jews killing other Jews.Those relentless attacks against Chareidim
and against “The Ka’noim” are NOT a mitzvah;
they are motivated by The Satan, who wants
Jews to HATE EACH OTHER more than before.Those relentless attacks against Chareidim
and against “The Ka’noim” are NOT a mitzvah;
they are motivated by The Satan, who wants
to push Jews into to a JEWISH CIVIL WAR, with
Jews shooting at Jews and Jews killing other Jews.The Satan knows what Chazal teach:
The Jewish people will not be redeemed until
they become UNITED. So the Satan constantly
pushes the Zionists into never-ending attacks
against Chareidim and against the world’s
Jews who reject the fake “Jewish” state.Certain people in this Coffee Room never stop
attacking the Chareidim and never stop
attacking “The Ka’noim”.Those never-ending attacks are a very big mistake,
and only cause Jews to HATE EACH OTHER
more than before, and they also push us closer
to a JEWISH CIVIL WAR, with Jews killing other Jews.Those relentless attacks against Chareidim
and against “The Ka’noim” are NOT a mitzvah;
they are motivated by The Satan, who wants
Jews to HATE EACH OTHER more than before.Those relentless attacks against Chareidim
and against “The Ka’noim” are NOT a mitzvah;
they are motivated by The Satan, who wants
to push Jews into to a JEWISH CIVIL WAR, with
Jews shooting at Jews and Jews killing other Jews.The Satan knows what Chazal teach:
The Jewish people will not be redeemed until
they become UNITED. So the Satan constantly
pushes the Zionists into never-ending attacks
against Chareidim and against the world’s
Jews who reject the fake “Jewish” state.it’s intentional mixing of the profane with the holy to promote the heresy of zionism and the kashering of rashoyim and their evil action.
bottom line, there is nothing “Jewish” about the zionist state, certainly nothing more Jewish than New York State or Lebanon. But, by pushing the propaganda that “Israel” a G-dless rebirth of the Jewish Nation, the ONLY “Jewish” nation in the world, Zionist achieve their goal of being fully “poreik ol” and feeling good about their secular Jewish identity (or even worse their Religious identity) as being really “moser nefesh” for the Jewish people vs those silly gulis yidden who just daven and learn Torah and turn to Hashem to save them.
Zionism is about “self-realization”. L’havdil, Judaism is about “Divine-realization”
as mentioned your unbridled kefira makes me reluctant to continue the conversation. i long ago lost belief that you are here in good faith, particularly because of your bullying style, spamming of multiple threads, and “forgetting” or “ignoring” already answered questions.
I answered your question about about the shulchan aruch in hilchos shabbos here: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/matzav-article-about-golus-and-eretz-yisrael/page/3#post-2423708
the maharal I have mentioned regularly is in netzach yisroel perek 24. he explains well the purpose and obligations of this gulis vis a vis the 3 shevios. if you are serious about understanding the Torah teachings and the gemara in kesibos, i would highly recommend learning the whole chapter. if you are instead just interested in winning an online argument, I would recommend you NOT learn that chapter.
regarding the Avnei Nezer and his point about “not haluche” is a language also used by Satmar Rebbe in Vayoel Moshe to describe the sugya. But, that doesn’t mean that those gedolimm where – chas v’shulem – kofer in Toras Moshe, rather it means something different than you think. As mentined the long Avnei Nezer itself leverages this designation to explain exactly why we SHOULD KEEP THE SHEVIOS! He doesn’t (of course and chas v’shulem) dismiss them. He explains that breaking them is worse than kureis!
I don’t know your chinich, but the concepts of “haluche” and “agudeteh” are well established and NONE of it means we can be kofer in even one word of the teachings of chazal. I don’t believe you care to learn anything from myself or anyone else around here if it pushes against your current comfort in dismissing whole sections of chazal saying to yourself “mutar li”. I can point you to the Ramchal’s “mamar agadtuh” that is available online and printed in many Ein Yaakov editions.
And, in closing, I would point you to learn Vayoel Moshe and realize that in the Torah world – meaning in accepted Torah publications – there is no one cholek on his explanations of the sources he brings there. There is some acute disagreement on psak regarding voting and money from the zionist state as well as some less halachically substantiated dilution of hischbris l’reshoyim as explained in the sefer Biyos Hazman.
Again, I’m not expecting you or anyone to agree with my assertations. But, I expect you to adopt the teachings of our universally accepted Gedolim like the Maharal and certainly the Talmud itself as pure unadulterated Toras Moshe m’Sinai. If you don’t understand something, come to it with the humility of someone who know that the teacher is correct, but the student simply hasn’t yet grasped.
@yankel-berel
I am not reconsidering anything nor does my allegiance mean only thing, rather the only thing that should matter is the Holy Torah we have from Sinai.The reason I have stopped responding to you is because if well breached any norms of yiddishkeit and have full on entered kefira mode. Until now, I had given you the benefit of the doubt as you seemed to be sincere in your (aforementioned) allegiance to the Torah.
I can’t point out every breach of yours, nor do I think you care. You’ve construed a false binary between a Zionist state and another Holocaust. You’ve rejected the axioms of schar vonesh on it’s face in thinking that the actions of the IDF exclusively decide life and death for the millions of people living within that evil state’s borders, and not their gzar din from Rosh Hashuneh.
You’re pushing the zionist propaganda that the Arab world want to mass murder all Jews while conveniently ignoring the clear truth that this fear is a direct explicit result of Zionist political activity in the region, turning our traditional friends and supporters in the Muslim world into our enemies. I can’t know what ‘s in the hearts of those non-Jewish nations, but the words they say align with historical precedence that they only have issue with zionists, not (per se) Jews. I am well aware of the Zionist agenda to blur that distinction and certainly the non-Jewish Arab world is vulnerable to that Zionist confusion. So, I am shocked that anyone who values Jewish life would reinforce the lie that all Jews must be targeted by those who want to stop zionism and dismantle the zionist state.
Of course, as mentioned. I’m not concerned about threats of violence from the Arab world, rather I am concerned about the sins of the ‘Sonei Yisroel’ who enable such attacks to, chv”sh, materialize. It is of specific concern for this conversation that the punishment for violating the Three Oaths, violations that the Zionist have achieved according to every known shita, is specifically the type of widespread mass death, chv”sh, as you speak about.
You can argue all you want about what the Avnei Nezer might mean about the shevious being halocho, regardless the Gemureh is clear that we shouldn’t breach them and warns us of the extreme and specific heavenly punishment that our own eye have seen to be the results of Zionism (and which the Avnei Nezer emphasizes!).
No Jewish person who cares about Jewish lives would ask for MORE zionism in response to the violence that zionism has caused!
In any case, the Ramban mentions that the only place where Jews are at risk of being, chas v’shulem, wiped out is in Eretz Yisroel, as that is the only place without the Divine promise to protect us. Yet he also teaches us that there will always be a land that Jews can escape to if our current location becomes too dangerous such that the whole nation will not be wiped out.
You imaginary binary seems to blatantly reject these many parts of Torah teachings, again, all based on our belief in Divine Providence, Schar v’Onesh, the guidelines of our Divinely decreed Gulis, and our specific reliance on Hashem Himself to redeem us from Gulis through the mechanism he taught us about called Moshiach.
So as not to avoid your absurd question: of course if the Divine will is that all the Jews in the world should (chv”sh) commit suicide, I would sign that Kol Koreh without hesitation. So too, any halocho that says “yaharog v’al yaavor”, I would not hesitate to follow. Not for myself and not for any Jews. However, this line of questioning is not sincere to the current situation, as no one except the Zionists is suggesting doing something that puts millions of lives at risk. Dismantling the Zionist state, may it happen soon, does not mean anything more that passing on control to any other self-identifying non-Jewish governance. This could be the USA, the UN, Jordan, or Hamas. I’m not intending to push my own opinions on what is preferred, I am only intending to point out the obvious reality that if the residents of Israel all wanted to give up their state, there are many relatively peaceful pathways to transition/evacuate to a more kusher path that aligns with the Torah.
Much more important than the practical political question about solving the problems created by Zionism is the requirement of every Jew to personally adamantly reject Zionism and the fake “Jewish” identity they claim to lead. There is nothing “Jewish” about that state and it does not represent Jews worldwide. We must reinforce dependence specifically on Hashem to redeem from the hands of non-Jews as He promised us.
@besalel
I don’t understand what significance those percentages are supposed to mean to any party in this conversation. for Jews, this is fully meaningless as we know that these current events are certainly not “kibitz gulyous”. for non Jews, only the most foolish who think the zionist state is somehow (chalila) “Jewish” would then draw some non-jewish religious doctrine out of that.the only people who I ever heard excited about “Israel” being a “coming back” are those who think that jewish greatness is found in the halls of universities, nobel prize lists, and olympic medals.
@besalel
the jews haven’t “come back” to eretz yisroel, rather they never left.
if you mean “come back” to mean melech hamoshiach and rebuilding the Temple, he hasn’t come yet.@square_root
why do you push kefira? from a Torah perspective, there is nothing Great about the zionist regime! there is nothing Jewish about the zionist regime!
it certainly is NOT the fulfillment of any good prophesy.The zionist state is the greatest chilil Hashem in our history, as you very well highlighted in this disgusting article. It shows loud and clear the Zionist disgraceful claim that what makes the Jewish people “great” is our military, medicine, security, technology, agriculture, intelligence, etc! In that evil worldview, what makes Jews great are that we are the greatest goyim! the most goyish of them all! look at all our science! look at all our money! look at all our guns!
That claim would make any erliche Jew want to throw up!
@smerel
I’m responding to the comment that is pushing kefira in ikarei eminah and pushing another religion onto a Jewish patform all in the name of, chsv”sh, the chofetz chaim ztz”l!I can’t “prove” a negative, but if you want I can “prove” what the Torah obviously teaches about kibitz gulyos. And certainly the Chofetz Chaim didn’t consider the zionist project a positive “revival of the nation”, whatever in the world that zionist nonsense is supposed to mean.
also, @smerel
Thank you for looking up a meaningful quote, that indeed reflects the normative Torah outlook. So too, many Gedolim have pointed out that good certainly comes out of other evil movements and events in our history.@always_ask_questions
no, I always point to published mainstream Torah sources, and you point to nonsense Zionist fantasies.Torah has integrity. You don’t.
same as israeli or ukrainian or american soldiers. some might say “if they are there against their will, maybe we should include them into tefilos for shevuyim? If they are there voluntarily, then maybe honen hadaas, ask Hashem to give them sechel, and if they are real reshayim then in minim.”
but, chazal have already established a mi shebreach for all shevuyim as well as v’al’malsihninm for the reshoyim. So, have all the zionist and american and russian and ukrainian jewish soldiers in mind that the good ones should be freed ASAP and the and bad ones should be destroyed.
@always_ask_questions
that story about the Chofetz Chaim is obviously a lie. try learning torah instead of haskuleh nonsense.Would I endorse organizing a response in this case? sure daven, bribe, and run away. As the Chofetz Chaim taught, following this path has served us very well in galus. Only when we have rejected those teachings have we seen such destruction, exactly as the Talmud warns us.
again, the shavuos are generally about our obligation to live under non-jewish rule and the issur to rebel against their government and its rulership. This includes, as stated by the Maharal and others, even at threat of death.
There is a separate obligation to save ones life in the face of a a random non-Jew or non-Jews who are being violent. This would have nothing to do with the Three Shevios.
Up to here, is everything clear? – because this is basic basics of thinking
Now, there is certainly room to speculate when those two halachos clash, like in any other sugya. So, what if there is no kingdom, what if someone is caught on the border between two waring armies, etc etc. Those might be interesting studies to find responsa about. Nonetheless, the axioms themselves – pekiach nefesh and the shalosh shevios – are well documents across chazal and poskim.
@yankel-berel
you are correct that I lost track of the original conversation. I also blame you, since you took a quote of mine out of context and put it into numerous threads, undermining the integrity of the conversation and your ability to try to understand what I wrote.While I certainly stand behind the words of the Chofetz Chaim, my original statement was indeed about the shalosh shevios, which include a prohibition of rebelling against non Jewish nations. As such, it would not inform us about how an individual should act in galus (as the Chofetz Chaim seems to speak about) rather it would inform us how to act as a group vis-a-vis the non-Jewish nations ruling over us.
With that, the Shabbos p/n halocho you referenced in SA has nothing to do with the shalosh shevios, as that halocho is talking about a band of violent non-Jewish troublemakers, whose defeat by local jews would certainly be fully endorsed by and praised by the non-Jewish authorities. SA tells us that even such an armed resistance is allowed on shabbos.
there are many questions that have been asked by and confounded gedolim over generations about how R’ Akiva could have thought BK was moshiach, specifically regarding the various psak of the Rambam on the subject. Let me know if you find anyone else who asks your question and if you find any good answers.
=Regarding R’ Yakov Shapira’s book Empy Wagon, it is certainly not a halachic sefer. Most of it is filled with the documented history of the zionist kefira, something that was difficult for me to even expose myself to, much less come to terms with that revolting history.
However, he does indeed quote numerous Torah sources with a solid English translation. As such, I find it easier to leverage and give credit to his book for some copy.
=I can’t respond to all the nonsense you wrote, mostly because I – again – even can’t make any coherent sense of what your intent might have been. You’re shooting off in all different directions, seemingly desperate to argue about something, antything. As I have said many times, please try to make a coherent point and I will try to responsd. You seem to be intetionally straw-maning my earlier statements, but for what? But my stamtments are (I claim) straight from Torah sources, so are you really so invested in your idol worship heresy fantasy that you don’t even want to learn the sources I am pointing to?