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Do you always need to know rebbe’s sources? Is seeing the rebbe actually doing something not sufficient in some cases? Maybe not enough to pass to others though.
as I mentioned in a response to you in a different thread here, on principal you can only follow your rebbe to keep Torah given at Sinai which means technically it must be included within chasimas haShas, and of course as understood by later authoritative poskim. If your rebbe is known to reject, chalila, the Torah or add on, chlila, to the Torah, he does not “go in a good way” and should not be your rebbe. certainly you cannot listen to his crooked “psak” and if intentional, he would have a din masis (and perhaps madiach), in which case it would be asur to learn ANY Torah from him.
practically speaking, the reason you have a Rebbe is because you trust that he is teaching you real Torah and you are not obligated to check every source. However, if confronted with something that seems to you to go against halacha your options are to either presume he knows what he is doing and you continue keeping established halacha OR you ask him if you should copy his actions and then for his reasons/sources to understand the correct application. What you CANNOT do (because of the issure of “mehahar achrai Rabo”) is think that he is going against the Torah and all the more so you cannot copy what you think is an aveira. again, he must – like any Jew – be relying on an established shita at least within Shas ( and really in line with established klalei psak that are taught in Shas and poskim).
The Satmar Rebbe (I heard) was for this reason mlamed zchis on the foolish apikorsim who go after the zionist religion because of evil fake rabbunim if they are doing so from sincere ignorance in Torah (This would at least be in line with the Raavad and perhaps not like the Rambam). However, that innocence can never be used to excuse someone as learned as the regulars in CR.
@always_ask_questions
I don’t understand most of what you are asking. all these things are dealt with as basics of shulchan aruch. Do we not have a Torah that tells us how to know what to do?
(real) poskim have always labored to explain their reasons so that we will know how to apply the rules to the next situation. one simply cannot paskin if he doesn’t know the sources for what his rebbe taught him from. if you can’t paskin, you depend on what you already have or turn to someone who can paskin. again, all this according the basic klalim of psak well explain in shulchan aruch.so basically, everyone here agrees that RJBS was the leader of the Tinukei Shenishba kehilla. Not familiar enough with Yiddishkeit to be fully frum, but sincere enough (presumably by chazukeh) to keep the Torah if their leaders would ever dare tell them the Truth.
@ujm
I’m glad you frame it as “you think”, because history certainly hasn’t been kind to the crooked path called “Modern”@too-tired
what a shame that statement frames the conversation as a fundamental “charedi” stance, when really, as the statement ends, the rejection of Zionism and Ztianity and Islam is a fundamental Jewish stance@Chaim87
The amount of kefiira you spew is shocking.You said:
” if it costs money or land to save Israel”
No, it cost Jewish blood to save Israel, so long as you keep pushing for war. Death is the price paid for having a Zionist state, both hashkafically and historically.You said
” or jews may cvs die”
First, this is straight kefira. Jews only die, chas’v shulem, because of avairas. We dont save Jewish lives by fighting back, rather that only leads to more (chas v’shulem slaughter.
Second, if you believed that your life was really at any risk to be in Israel (it is, because of the aforementioned sins), you would be obligagted to move somewhere else. You would be obligated to start a mass movement our of the Zionist state because Jewish lives are, chas v’shulem, at risk. But, no, your yester hureh has sold you on the absurd contradiction that: you must do avairas to save jewish lives, but the zionist state is needed to save jewish lives, and the zionist state is currently the safest place for Jews, but Jews must all sacrifice their children to keep the zionist politics in power.Meanwhile the whole Jewish would is praying to Hashem for the downfall of the reshoyim and you, lehavdil, pray to your land for more guns.
the Raavah is on the Rambam hilchos tshiva perek zuyin where he mentions ” וכמה גדולים וטובים ממנו ” that mistakenly believed in Divine physicality, chas v’shulem.
regarding the tshiva i saw, it was many years ago… seriously, but don’t take my word for it. i was reading some american journal in halacha from mid 20th century. I don’t recall enough about it to find it again. regardless, none of this conversation hinges on that the question of what is kefira and who is a kofer are note bound one to the other.
I don’t think good looking thin men and women should be punished, rather we should introduce mandatory DEI policies on families. Every family must make shidduchim that represent all vulnerable groups of fatties shorties and poories. Anyone who dares marry based on middos or money or yiras shomayim can simply be canceled. This will also help filter out any chassidim from our communities.
@chaim87
I didn’t “establish this is a Halacha question”, the many many Gedolim that fought against Zionism as a matter of halacha.You can see the sefer “Tikun Olam” on hebrew books, printed well before the holocaust that compiles the many many kol koeres and psak dinim from gedolim – belz, lubavitch, munkatch, ger, chofetz chaim, etc etc.
Beyond that, the specific sefer “Vayoel Moshe” written by one of those Gedolim was a lengthy and explicit halachik sefer that solidified the sugya in the Torah world.
So certainly the halachik “question” has been asked. It has also been answered, but that is beyond the point you are foolishly making.
@yankel-berel
afaik, @hakatan never said what you are claiming he said.
Zionism is very obviously kefira. That doesn’t make every zionist a kofer. This is something @hakatan expresses very clearly above, and it fits very well to at least the shita of the Raaved. All that I added to this point is that I never heard a psak about yayin nesech. I have seen poskin oser, at least lechatlchila, taking a R”Z as witnesses to a kesiba, may we Jews be saved from their wicked ways.my last statement was a response to chaim87, and that is why i address the response to him at the top of that comment. However, I wasn’t per se claiming he is or is not a masis imadiach, rather I was pointing out the obligation specifically to follow what the torah teaches as is well established in our mesorah, as shas and poskim.
to reiterate, Jews are obligated to keep that Torah. Not because it was taught by a specific person, rather because that is what Hashem told us to do at Sinai. Now, there is much to add about the obligation to listen to certain established authorities, most obviously Moshe Rebaini. So too the aforementioned shas and poskim. But, the point I made before and would expect any Jewish person to agree with is that the authority of those authorities is specifically because they are teaching the Torah that G-d gave us at Sinai.
I don’t understand why you wrote “try arguing substantively (you have not done so yet)”. Is the above not the most substantive thing?
Regarding the specific authority of the Satmar Rebbe. There are two parts to that conversation: 1) the authority of the previously established Torah he mentions and 2) the authority of his own established expertise and/or influence. As outlined in SA, a “Gadol” is someone who is greater in expertise and/or influence (students). A “Gadol Hador” would be someone who is the top-tier in his generation as per that mesure. Again, this is not me, this is Shulchan Aruch.
While there is indeed an argument to be made that the Satmar Rebbe has significant expertise and influence and would be considered the “greatest in his generation” by either of those measures. I don’t hinge my argument here on that, if only because it is not a necessary point to the core of the argument. Additionally, by framing this conversation that is really about Judaism vs clear heresy as a conversation about the Satmar Rebbe dishonestly turns it into an argument over shitas or schools or whatever.
The sefer Vayoel Moshe is explicitly a halachik sefer that was written (as per the author) for all of klal yisroel. That being said, if we ignore the authority of the author, we are still obligated to the sources he brings and perhaps obligated in the authors conclusions.
It goes without saying that the Satmar Rebbe didn’t say anything novel ,neither in his sources nor in his conclusions, as there is much documentation of his points in earlier works. However, what he did (attempt to) do was distill the halachik axios and apply them to the post ’48 reality of zionist heresy in the form of a self-procaimed “Jewish” state. In case there was any ambiguity as time went on, the Satmar Rebbe again published a follow up “Al Hageila. val HaTemira” in ’68, strengthening the Torah and halacha in light of the heretics and their violence.
The length of Vayoel Moshe is in part to the authors constant self questioning of his sources and conclusions as he asks many of the common challanges to what was written before him. He spends most of the sefer “second-guessing” each step. You, @zsk, wrote “The R”Z community has provided lengthy…” but I have asked multiple times for any meaningful Torah response to the halachik conlusions of Vayoel Moshe. I have not recieved one from you. To be clear, I would expect such a resource to have read and dealt with the pilpul of Vayoel Moshe both because of the authors lifelong expertise in the subject as well as to produce a meaningful work. What I mean to say is that if someone says “Jews are not bound by the shevios because the non-jews broke theirs”, they would need to at least address the clear multiple responses to that which are in Vayoel Moshe. I suppose, I could compile an incredible pro-heresy (zionist) “sefer” by just compiling all of the Satmar Rebbe’s kashas, and not include his answers, but that would be very dishonest and hollow.
While I don’t learn Torah from kofrim, I am still bound by – lehavdil – the shulchan aruch even if they quote it. So too, if a kofer (chalila they should learn) mentions a Torah source that informs something about the status of zionism or out relationship to it, I would of course be obligated to those Torah sources as per the Jewish mesorah.
Regarding yayin nesech, none of this conversation has to do with “what I consider”. Ask your rabbi what the halach is. As per the Satmar Rebbe and his psak in Vayoel Moshe, I never heard him paskin that R”Z have a din ovdei avoda zureh. But, you would have to ask a Satmar chussid who might know if their rebbe addressed your question.
as i’ve said before: Jews follow the Torah, i don’t know or care what strange religion you follow is.
I didn’t write the Shulchan Aruch nor Vayoel Moshe nor the gemaras and mishnayos that underpin their teaching.Any child can their rav “do I have keep shulchan aruch?”
any masis imadiach can say “well, rabbi, that’s what YOU say! haw haw haw!”
@ard
in support of what you wrote in reply #2368349,
much of the am harutzes in this thread seems to be that many don’t realize that the only thing that gives weight to ANY gadol’s psak is the Torah mesora (i.e. shas and poskim) who he claims his psak is based on. In other words, a Gadol’s psak isn’t binding on klal yisroel, rather the Torah that was given at Sinai is what is binding. A so-called Gadol is someone who is for good reason an established authority in communicating that binding Torah.This is the reason why all Gadolim in their sh”t write lengthy explanations on exactly what sources they are relying on to get to their conclusion, as they themselves know that the only strength their “letter” has is the established Torah mesora that supports it.
The tipshis of some is that they think that because the signature on the bottom of the letter is (HarRav) “Ovadia Yosef” or (HaRav) “Yoel b”hrav Chanaiya Yom Tov Teitelbaum”, they can, chas v’shalom, ignore the Torah they are teaching.
This is also why the Shulcahn Aruch in YD calls a person who “paskins” without being based in Shas and poskim a thug and his “psak” (of course) worthless. And why in the same shulchan aruch it forbids paskining (even with Torah sources) against established halachik norms without also publishing the rational behind the breach of norms. So too (says the SA), one must stay away from rabunim and dayunim who stray from the above path and choose leaders who act in a good honest way in line with our Torah Gedolim.
@square_root
I can’t believe any Jew is calling “70 years old” outdated!
Are you also ignoring the “Al HaGeila VaAl HaTemirah” from the Satmar Rebbe?Can you guess how old the Talmud is?
Can you guess how old the Rambam is?
Can you guess how old the Maharal is?
Are all these too outdated for you?
Please tell me what sefer about zionism is “current” that you approve of?
@yankel-berel
the whole sefer vayoel moshe is meant to answer that question of “a medina without any repercussions. Is that against ikarei emuna?”
and, I can’t wrap my head around your “all he does is quote other” critique of hakatan. I’ll warn you now, that’s also all that the Satmar Rebbe does in Vayoel Moshe.In fact, the whole Torah is simply quoting others and learning what they taught to apply it to our current situation. Other foolish people make up their own ideas and say “prove me wrong!”.
@Chaim87
you haven’t quoted ANY seforim that are authoritative in any way.What do I mean by “authoritative”? I mean a sefer that is used and referenced by other Gedolim as being a source of true Torah. This “peer endorsement” is key to obligating the public, as is spelled out in Shulchan Aruch yoreh deah (kivud rabunim) and choshem mishpat (hilchos dayanim and klalei psak).
What are “Gedolim”? As in Shulchan Aruch hilchos dayanim, a “gadol m’chaveiro” is either a bigger in minyan (talmidim) and/or bigger in wisdom on a specific subject (like for example Rav Vaye shlit’a is the “Gadol” of hilchos tolaim”). A “Gadol HaDor” as is commonly used is simply the person who is at the top of that Torah hierarchy. While there is place for pilpul on who is the “greatest” vs another Torah leader, it is either obvious or easily provable who is at least close to that stature.
What is “Torah”? The “Torah” is not whatever you want it to be, nor is it any action you might glean from the 3rd hand account of what someone else said or did once. The Torah is a specific body of teachings that were given at Sinai to the Jewish Nation and passed down to each generation. The “Torah Sheb’al Peh” that we have successfully passed down was fully collected into the Talmud (Bavli and Yerushalmi) and after the Talmud was completed (“chasimas haShas”), Jews are not allowed to add or detract from that Torah. Every single piece of Torah that obligates us Jews is necessarily in the Talmud, and for this reason every single Gadol in every generation explains his psak as directly connected to something taught in the Talmud. No Gadol ever introduced a new stikel Torah, chas v’shalom, that was not sourced in Shas and not given at Sinai.
So, @Chaim87, I don’t know what religion you follow. But, in Judaism, we are obligated to follow the Torah and not add or subtract from it. You have NOT provided any Torah seforim (writings that connect a psak to the Torah) by any authority (an known Gadol) that ever attempted in any meaningful way to defend Zionism.
If you believe I am straw manning your argument, I would ask you to first define Zionism, it must be a definition that crosses all commonly known Zionist camps (liberal, labor, religious, revisionist, and cultural Zionism, etc) and it must be a definition that narrowly expresses the novelty of the Zionist movement that started in the late 19th century. Then I would ask you to provide specific quotes or references to any authoritative Torah sefer and specify explicitly what point you claim they are making that defend your definition of Zionism.
I don’t believe you are in this conversation in good faith (pun intended) because I don’t believe you have a shita in Torah to rely upon rather you live a made up feel good religion of “trust me bro”, known in the Torah world as “masis i’madiach”. Your response doesn’t have to be long and it should be very easy for anyone to write if they have already learned this from their rabonim.
@arso
no, you are missing the point. it’s not the Gedolim that obligate us or inform us, it is the Torah that they teach. Anyone who teaches something that is NOT sourced in Torah but claims it is still Torah is a liar, a fraud, and certainly not a Gadol.Of course, real Gedolim explain their psak the Torah sources that obligate us following it.
@chaim87
Just to be clear, I asked for sources of your claims. I don’t mean from Kasher, who was well shown to be a fraud in promoting the kefira of Zionism. My request is specifically about these shocking claims of yours:
“3) There are a ton of sefraim pro zionsim some written by previous anti zionsts” – If any of these were written by undisputed Gedolai Torah, please let us know.
“5) R Chtzakel, the steipler, R Aron Lieb all held that one should fight in the army if not learning. There are open letters and teshuvas.”
So, if you are not a liar, these two points should be easily proven.@chaim87
please quote any real sources to your wild claims. please, name the sefer and the page. otherwise you are just spouting false propaganda and making up fake Torah.@Chaim87
I’ll jump in to answer your question: being in the IDF does not automatically make someone holy. Fighting wars against the non-Jews does not make someone holy. Instead, the Gemara says that doing such things causes, G-d forbid, more bloodshed.Sacrificing your son to Molech doesn’t make someone holy, not even the son.
While, I cannot claim to know the din v’cheshbon of any specific person, we are obligated to make presumptions and certainly generalizations based on the external observation, especially when dealing with heretical groups and ideologies. So, anyone who is wearing the modern blue-and-white flag of Amulek in their fight against Hashem in IDF garb is certainly not a “holy fine Jew”.
for anyone reading this. there are many liars about our Torah, and there is no countering opinion against the many Gedolim who spoke against Zionism and their evil State. The Brisker Rav was not a “daas yuchid”, the Steipler Geon was not a “daas yuchid”, the Chazon Ish was not a “daas yuchid”, Rav Elchnon Vaserman was not a “daas yuchid”, the Satmar Rav was not a “daas yuchid”, rav yosef chaim zonnefeld was not a “daas yuchid”, the baba sali was not a “daas yuchid”, the toldos aharon rebbe was not a “daas yuchid”, rav amrom blau was not a “daas yuchid”, the munkatcher rebbe was not a “daas yuchid”, etc etc etc
Bottom line, there is no source for any “shita” that kashers the ideology or the actions of ZIONISM TODAY. This is all clear and obvious to anyone who looks to the Torah and the thousands of seforim that have been published in our long history as the source of Truth the source of our masorah.
There is no leader in klal yisroel who can point to any source in our Torah that is a different shita than the clear psak as laborsly spelled out in the sefer Vayoel Moshe. No one has every published a challenge to that sefer, as it has been well endorsed by every Gadol who has seen it and spoken about it.
@ZSK you seem to be blind to the fact that my (our?) stance on the Torah’s rejection of Zionism is referring to today’s reality not what was. The so called “RZ” are worse than the secular zionists because the rebellion against Hashem is that much more blatant and intentional.
It’s bad enough when a person calls “Reform” a “Jewish” religion, it’s worse when that person wears a kapel.
responding to the original article:
Your first mistake is “Every individual and kehillah is entitled to their views on this matter”, that is not true, that is not Torah, and that is not Yiddishkeit.
Ever Jew is obligated to keep the Torah and the Torah’s rejection of Zionism is a refection of fundamental of Yiddishkeit. By relegating the issue to one of “minhag hamakom” or even worse “opinion” is to completely miss the point of what is so evil about Zionism.
Beyond that, I don’t know who you are referring to that makes this specific battle against Amulek the complete totality of their yiddishkeit. Certainly there are askanim and the like that make this battle their life focus, but I don’t see a broader trend of it being a focus any more than the battle against Reform or Xtiantiy or Sha”tz in his day, yemach shemo.
Responding @square_root ,
what BT yeshiva is so anti zionist?@simcha613 you have a peculiar idea of what “am yisroel” is, and it does not seem to be a Torah one. Not everyone is “achicheh” in Torah.
@Chaim87,
please provide any Torah sources for any of your claims, as of right now it is absurdist hearsay. Of course, I stand my my original claim that if any of these great men would have done anything that would show that they, chas v’shulem, indeed supported zionism, it would be a kasha on them and not on the Torah.
Again, the only thing that we want from these men and the only thing that this conversation is a about is Torah, so you would first need a “shita” in Torah – a published peer reviewed stance – that you can claim they also agree with. Beyond, there is no claim you can make, except to do what you are doing now and call those great men “kofrim”.@ZSK
you would need to define what you mean as a “Gadol”. As per my definition and as per my knowledge:
Was R Elishav zl a gadol? yes
Was R Yosef zl a gadol ? Rav Ovadia – yes
Was R shloma zalman Orbach zl a gadol? yesWas R isser zalman meltzer zl a gadol? yes
Was R tzvi pesach frank zl a gadol? no
Was the punvitcha rav zl a gadol? no
Were the rizyhna rebas like the Aver Yaakov, Shtefenesht (the skullner and ribntza Reba Reba ), Bohush zl a gadol? of those specified- no
Was R shraga fievel mendelovitch who helped so many yeshivas in the USA a gadol? no
Was R Moshe Wolfson zl a gadol? noeach of these would “yes”‘s would of course only be limited to their specific peer reviewed expertise. each of these “no”‘s might be from my own ignorance of a specific peer-reviewed Torah expertise that they might have had.
@Chaim87
You can just admit that you are either wrong or following another religion. You don’t need to type so many empty words.@Chaim87
I’m not sure where you are going with this. I will restate my comment that (I think ) initiated your questioning me about “Gedolim”:I don’t mean to say anyone must write a response, especially if there is no Torah response, and that is exactly the point.
“so many kofrim” does not change the Torah.
If somebody does something that is against any part of the Torah, the kasha is on that person not on the Torah.
This is the crux of my argument and highlights the absurdity of yours.If somebody does something that is against any part of the Torah, especially kefira like explained in Vayoel Moshe, the kasha is on that person not on the Torah.
In an attempt to move the conversation along, I will offer my definition of a “Gadol” and you can provide feedback.
A “Gadol” is shorthand for a “Gadol in Torah”, someone who is an expert in an given subject in Torah such that his published Torah writings (drashas or tshivas) in those fields can be considered authoritative and binding – like a bais din, unless otherwise rejected by a greater authority – like a bais din can only be overruled by a greater bais din.
Any teaching by a Gadol is susceptible to the same “peer review” as anyone else and their status as a “Gadol” is directly an outcome of that peer review. A person whose teachings are neither challenged by other Gadolim or quoted by other Gadolim as authoritative can never be called a “Gadol”, despite an other publicity they may have.
A “Gadol” is only a gadol in the specific area of expertise he is known and positively peer reviewed for. This is in fact very common in the Torah, that someone can be a Gadol in one specific are, and that psak from expertise can be relied upon by large swaths of Am Yisroel, while that same Gadol is considered a complete fool in another area. We Jews don’t generally publicize the “foolish” part of such rabbonim, because of halachos of kavod haTorah and Talmid Chuchum, but if you learn enough Shu”t you come across it rather regularly.@chaim87
“someone who you know was close to hashem and who generally is correct. We definitely don’t look at thier actions as kefira or borderline kefira”
…is every yid who displays himself as fully shomer Torah and Mitzvos, who have a “chezkas kashris”@Chaim87, such a person doesn’t exist in Judaism. There is no person whom we believe make no mistakes, as is well stated in many many seforim and explicit in pasukim of nuvi sheker. this includes the well known line in koheles “there’s no tsadik in the word that doesn’t sin”, and that is true even after the fact. You seem to think there is someone who even before they have acted would demand belief that whatever they do (in the future) is automatically kosher.
Our greatest leaders, every one of the Sheva Ro’im, has made (very well known) mistakes that we explicitly learn about their nature, why it happened, and how to avoid emulating it.
Nothing and no one is beyond the established guidelines of the Torah.@Chaim87
you will need to provide your definition of the term “Gadol” and what the implications of that title might be. That would enable me to answer your questions.@Chaim87
I don’t mean to say anyone must write a response, especially if there is no Torah response, and that is exactly the point.
“so many kofrim” does not change the Torah.
If somebody does something that is against any part of the Torah, the kasha is on that person not on the Torah.
This is the crux of my argument and highlights the absurdity of yours.If somebody does something that is against any part of the Torah, especially kefira like explained in Vayoel Moshe, the kasha is on that person not on the Torah.
btw I sent all 4 parts of my response above.
@Chaim87 what you are describing is not Torah. The whole sugya of a nuvi sheker and masis imadiach is regarding an otherwise gadol in Torah who is an influential posek and fiers tish and wears rebbishe or rosh yeshivishe clothes and also flies a zionist flag or a tzlav around his neck.
If fling the flag of an otherwise heretical movement and they DON’T give the published Torah reasoning according to our mesora then they would certainly also be considered a heretic especially if after being called out by a famous sefer like vayoel moshe and STILL not publish their Torah response than they are almost certainly a kofer.
This is all obvious and is well known as the system of our (not yours) Holy Torah.
Now, if you will respond with “are you calling so-and-so a kofer”, my answer will be “no”. I am not looking into anyone. If someone flew a zionist flag, it’s not my business to figure out if he ever explained himself. If he did, good. If he didn’t he may, at best, be an unintentional “madiach” and/or kofer.
None of this changes the Torah.I wlll attempt to submit my answer in @ZSK in 4 parts.
(Part 1/4)
1) masis is someone who pushes an individual towards kefirah or avoda zureh, madiach is someone who does that to a single group. “yimach shemo” is the common language used to fulfil the concept of “shaim rashuyim yirkav” when mentioning certain type of evil people, especially those who might be, G-d forbid, influential in turning the hearts of Jews against Hashen.I must acknowledge thanks to the mods for at least publishing my calling out their strong editorialization…
mods continue to not publish my Torah-only response. i would sure like to know why.
@Chaim87 . as I have mentioned. I have not seen any substantive Torah defense of either Kook, Yashkeh, or Zionism, and this is all obvious.
@ZSK I’m not sure what information toy are missing that you need me to provide. Kook was masis i’madiach to promote blatent kafira in the Torah. As mentioned above, this is discussed at length by contempotaries of Kook, notably the aforementioned essay by Rav Yosef Yedid, where he specifically addressed the kefira in Kook published heretical books. Those books were put into cherem for this reason during kook’s putrid life.
Like Yashkeh or Sha”tz, Kook was a big talmid chuchem who earned the epithet “yimach shemo”. After kook’s death and the full disaster of his heresy made inroads into the Jewish world, Hashem yerachem, Gedolim like the Satmar Rebbe doubled down on the obligation for Jews to distance ourselves from him and his students.
For those who are pulled after Zionism and yearn to sacrifice your sons to die for its glory, I can only ask you to stop calling your new religion Judaism.
@zsk is there any forum to have an open conversation?