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not new info, just maybe some responsibility for what is said and how things are presented. But I don’t have high hopes anymore.
Careful – you dont want the snags to know that the Frierdiker Rebbe revealed to us that they think this way! Lol
frankly I am sick of your trash talk. you seem to have some major social issues but have found yourself an outlet. To the extent that the above line is accurate your leaders were sick individuals. Breeding hate seems to be the rule of the day, and claiming to love every jew (except the ones they don’t love) is the smoke and mirrors they hide it behind.
I’m sick to my stomach.
AIY – There is nothing wrong with taking a very strong stand against flying on Friday but yes, you are correct. It is stupidity to judge those who do fly without having a clue about what put them there to begin with. People need to stop using religious causes as an excuse to belittle people. Complain about the behavior but leave the unknowns alone.
RSo – no, forget it. Several of us have pushed for answers, even just clarifying statements already made, and pushing for actual responses has resulted in being called agressive, attacking, baiting, misunderstanding, not reading the posts, not having a background to know the answer, being a hater, being anti libavitch and being insincere. By several different chabadniks. So either there is no allowamce for asking a question and expecting a straight answer, or really we are just a bunch of snags who will always be accused of having an agenda.
she has torn the question into so many small pieces until it was finally a little scrap of paper that she felt she could begrudgingly answer. Do you get the impression from that that there is a possibility she will admit to the contradiction she has presented and address the fact that it is a valid problem? forget it.
non-political – I have heard Rabbi Gottlieb say that and I agree completely. The point here is that she made a claim that her rebbe loves every yid but won’t say that he loves Rav Shach and Rav Kotler. She is just trying to hop on to your vort and say that because love and hate *can* coexist, there is no stira. But she still won’t say that he loves them (just that it is possible), and she won’t say *she* loves them, and she won’t say that anyone who *doesn’t* love them is doing an aveira according to the alter rebbe. (And not allowing a gadol’s sforim in your house is very hateful)
So while the point you bring is true, it has not been applied here. And knowing Rabbi Gottlieb, he probably would never make such a definitive, black vs white, true vs false claim in the first place!
SH – thank you for saying everything she should have but doesn’t. It is nice to know that there is a faction who don’t hold of some of the things she is trying to defend. And I appreciate your honesty. At least until your last line. I wish you would understand that she is not being baited. I believe are 100% wrong about that. I believe we are being baited, if anyone. We are being drawn in by comments that change to other things when pursued and become misunderstandings and things that we are all just to uninformed and uneducated to understand.
I do believe that you would have answered most of this thread differently, and probably would not have drawn half the responses, but nobody is baiting her, nobody needs to bait her. She is, unfortunately, as you see in the example which you thankfully rescued, doing her own damage.
Why would being upset with an individual justify putting down frum people and calling them snags? Are you for real? You make statements like these that are undefensible and then spend pages explaining that we misunderstood. So if you irritate me or call Rav Ahron Kotler “that man” is it now okay for me to make a statement about the lubavitch community and call them some nivel peh? That statement is never okay, and to write it off as a statement by an Israeli not under mirkaz with a crazy kippa is lame.
“OK syag I’ll try once more.”
that’s a funny way to word something you are finally answering for the FIRST time after a handful of requests. But if it helps you feel like I’m the one who has been dodging questions, well, feel free I guess.
And thanks for the extra bit about my definition, which I have not given nor is it relevant. You were merely asked to qualify a statement you had already made on your own.
So if you cant say “yes he does love every jew”, then i guess it’s a statement you shouldnt be making to begin with.
Don’t attack me because you can’t dig yourself out of this, I understood your posts perfectly. YOU made a clear black and white statement. YOU did, not me and not other posters. YOU said in simple true vs false, black vs white English that your rebbe loves EVERY Jew. Was this TRUE or was it a lie? It is your statement. Is it true or isn’t it? one word answer.
Cuz if the answer is not just simply YES, then your statement is sheker and should never have been made.Yes, or no.
without reading your response, I will assume by the length that you, once again, did not give a yes or no answer to your very own true false statement.
sigh5ish – speaking only for myself, and without agreement per se, that presentation certainly comes across much differently.
considering the fact that there is currently an epidemic going on, that is pretty frightening
5ish, I hear what you say but (separate from any of the other issues brought) those comments you made that he quoted were not nice, were indeed derogatory and your reasoning does not hold up. I have no reason not to believe that you don’t hate, and I abstain from commenting on the rest, but if those were potential reasons for anything they would/should have been presented as such. Not quite your usual presentation.
Question : That’s all. This is not part of a larger discussion requiring more sources and references and clarity and rereading old posts. You said EVERY Jew. It is either True or false. Is it true?
YES?
or NO?Response: I realise I wasnt clear hence the confusion is my fault. Will explain after shabbos iyh.
😂😂😂
“Teikef uMiYa”D MaMo”SH!””
I was actually surprised the mods let that thru. It’s a way of appearing to be praying for moshiach, but really just proclaiming that they ‘know’ who it is. As Ziongate demonstrated above, anyone who REALLY, TRULY and HONESTLY is awaiting Hashem’s Emissary, is not putting in plugs for “their own candidate”, so to speak. If you believe you know who it may be, that is it’s own issue. When crying out that Moshiach should come quickly in our day, that is not a time or place to be advertising your desires. That is a time to tell Hashem to being HIS choice of Moshiach, whomever it may be, because that is what we REALLY should be davening for. Anything else would indicate that 1) perhaps you would not be willing to accept a different choice or 2) you are afraid to put in the plea without the reminder. Such as when a mom promises she will give a treat and you tell her you would like it to be chocolate. Then, when she says she will go fetch the treat, instead of trusting her that she will bring what is truly best, you worry that she may have forgotten what you yourself believe to be best so you call out, “yes mommy, bring the chocolate treat”
To 5ish exclusively
– I address you only because you have never engaged in any of these arguments (?) and I would hate for you to walk away with that comment.
In fact this conversation proves my initial assertion that the people asking questions aren’t looking for answers.I think that holds true for a lot of things and some posters. I also thought this thread was stupid and wasn’t really sure what the point was. That being said, I do not agree with you in regard to Neville (or myself for that matter). And it isn’t fair to say that because so many of the answers seem empty, twisted, diversionary (whatever they have been called throughout) that does NOT mean that we aren’t looking for answers. It means that although many of you believe fully that you are providing honest answers, there are many of us who honestly don’t see them. Please don’t confuse that with not wanting answers, or not asking questions for honest reasons. It just isn’t true. And it isn’t a fair way to some up a lack of ability to make someone see another side.
Like I said, this is a response to 5ish in answer to his comment and should not be taken out of context.
Syag let me ask you a question: how do you love a Jew who clearly follows a non Torah path? What does ahavas yisrael mean and not mean?Randomex, thank you for asking the obvious.
CS – YOU said that your Rebbe loves EVERY Jew. So here is the question. Yes or No only. Did your Rebbe love Rav Shach and Rav Ahron Kotler? Yes or No. And if you cannot or do not answer YES, than your claim is Sheker, and only there to build an image.
Further, Yes or No, Do YOU love Rav Shach and Rav Kotler, whos name you won’t even utter? Are you willing to admit that all those in Chabad who don’t, are going against the path of your rebbe.
That’s all. This is not part of a larger discussion requiring more sources and references and clarity and rereading old posts. You said EVERY Jew. It is either True or false. Is it true?
YES?
or NO?“Don’t say your Rebbe loves EVERY yid and then list exceptions. If its emes than EVERY means EVERY. If there are exceptions, those words are Sheker.”
“Syag see my post above regarding Ahavas Yisroel “
I did. Sounds like you want to consider it another exception. If EVERY isn’t the Emes (with or without excuses of exceptions) then it’s sheker.
“Other than that, I don’t think about either of them and I definitely don’t talk about them. This is the way of the Rebbe.”
Sounds very loving.I plan to ask Reb Ahron’s son what his father said/wrote/held tomorrow. IY”H I will report back.
Don’t say your Rebbe loves EVERY yid and then list exceptions. If its emes than EVERY means EVERY. If there are exceptions, those words are Sheker.
“the Alter Rebbe tells us that if a bad thought enters your mind about another yid, even if you have a right to be upset (like Yosef with his brothers) you must immediately push it away bshtei yodayim and not dwell.on it as dwelling on it is an aveira.”
So it seems according to the alter rebbe the rebbe was committing an aveira with regard to Rav Shach and Rav Kotler.
One more thing – I assume you stayed out of this thread because it was such a disaster and I respect that. You seem committed to what you believe to be true. In the last thread, however, you had a tendency to lose your temper at anyone who defended their truth, and accuse everyone who didn’t accept your views as anti Chabad. I am not anti Chabad. I have close ties with some Chabad it’s and we never speak of controversy. I never believed the rants I read here and stayed out of contentious conversations. That being said, the words CS expressed on this thread and last have convinced me that there are some serious issues. And the derogatory references to gedolim outside Chabad has been the nail in the proverbial coffin. I don’t need to be called a hater for coming to that conclusion, I don’t expect you to like it but that’s just the fact. It won’t change my relationship with my Chabad coworkers or friends , although it will, unfortunately, make me wonder what they say about my community behind my back.
I wish you well, despite my newfound knowledge, and I expect nothing less from you.I didn’t twist anything, and I didn’t say (or think) you were defending him at all! My comment was that instead of telling us that he made up all those crazy things, you stated that he attained them from within Lubavitch. Perhaps you should have added some of these comments to your previous post so that we can be told that , unlike CS who seems only to be upset with his approach, Chabad does not subscribe to his comments. There have been some very disturbing revelations on this thread and I’m not twisting anything, I’m just listening to what your colleague has been teaching us.
So like I said, it’s all stuff you believe and say, but not in front of people who will mind.
I think some of us are just beside ourselves. Some poster comes on spewing sick garbage. We all expect to hear him denounced for saying lies and insanities but instead Seckel Hayashar says he must have intimate exposure to Lubavitch, and CS’s problem is that he isn’t nice?! So it’s not lies or wrong or insanities, it’s just not how we speak to a yid….
Speechless
My point was to explain why I hold of my Rebbe as I do. My point is not to force you unwillingly, by intellectual gun point type evidence, to see my Rebbe as the Moshe Rabbeinu of the same way as I do, because that is not the way of Torah.
it would do no such thing. And if you were honest with yourself you would recall that the question that you prefer not to answer was to verify why it is *permissible* for YOU to hold that way. So nothing less than the explainations would be an appropriate answer.
I never heard this person being nicknamed “Shofech Domim” but I got the inference right away
What kind of people are you that you have names like this for gedolim? Whether you yourself use it or not, if you know it, you have heard it or heard some sick rationalization for it. What kind of things do you teach your children and talk about amongst yourselves? I am truly sickened. Each new post has been another awful surprise of things I would never ever have thought about you until you have expressed it yourselves.
Yes Neville, agreed. Because while it is clear to everyone that he doesn’t really represent Chabad, he does prove the point we’ve been making all along.
“t’s the same reason chabad ‘bochurim’ approach little (chareidi, like very chareidi) kids in the park on shabbos afternoon with the promise of candy, but only after reciting certain peukim.”
This *really*disturbs me, please tell me it isn’t true!
“Syag:
Regarding the pesukim:”No, not regarding the pesukim (I can’t imagine why you thought that was the issue), regarding the idea that Chabad bachurim are approaching little FRUM kids in a park to say pesukim. AND regarding OFFERRING CANDY TO LITTLE BOYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now do you see the problem? Is offering candy to little boys so mainstream that you thought I was asking about the pesukim?!
Additionally, I would also like to hear a justification for that Chabad house Toi spoke of in a completely chareidi neighborhood, as well as in Lakewood. Approaching frum boys to spread Chabad doctrine is missionizing, offering candy to little boys is just plain wrong.
, seriously Joseph, that’s your take away from that whole post
“You: “In other words all the Gedolim are in the same category as the tens of Talmidei Chachamim in Lubavich who “we respect but are not overly impressed with”. Got it”
I said for the most part. And yes this is what I see if them on heimishe news sites such as ywn. Lots of photo ops of tishen and weddings, stories about their learning and hashkafic perspectives etc. ”
how do the mods let this through!?!?!?“t’s the same reason chabad ‘bochurim’ approach little (chareidi, like very chareidi) kids in the park on shabbos afternoon with the promise of candy, but only after reciting certain peukim.”
This *really*disturbs me, please tell me it isn’t true!You are correct. I thought you were referencing non political’s post , which, by the way was beautifully and super respectfully written.
Neville- for a Tzadik you may be correct, but I thought the response was toward her claim that he was not only a Nassi hador, but accepted as such by many great rebbeim AND then the frightening comparison, to explain how he proclaimed himself Nassi hador, she gives an example of how Moshe Rabbeinu did so as well with no narcissistic intent!! If ever there was a machaa to be made!!! I just hope that people like Seckel hayashar are silently cringing
Well I for one know I’ve said it before but I am totally surprised and definitely disappointed by what I’ve heard her say that I never would’ve expected them to believe or be taught
And even if you choose to go by others who didn’t see the Rebbe that way, you can a) understand why we do,
umm, no. Obviously we don’t or we would not be a) having these discussions or b) commenting as we do about the Rebbe and his ways. Isn’t that plain pashut?
and b) be careful when you’re disagreeing with the Rebbe to word it properly and respectfully, quoting the actual dissenting sources and not your opinion etc
See above. If we didn’t see the Rebbe’s words as being a problem in Yahadus, Of course we wouldn’t be disrespectful (in your eyes as you believe it is unwarranted). And if we follow the daas of OUR mesora, then we absolutely should NOT be according more respect. Isn’t that obvious as well? It has certainly been stated ad neauseum. You call it disrespect but we believe we are *defending* disrespect.
“its easier for me to take in a respectfully worded post and respond likewise when the post is similarly worded”
And for me its much easier to be redpectful when someone hasnt just spoken negatively about rebbeim as if it was a cute little maaseh. You ask for respect as if the su ject was coffee and cookies. You cant keep complaining that its disrrspectful to tell you you are speaking disparagingly about our rebbe or torah. Especially when you wont admit to it or apologize for itCS I agree with Neville, please don’t respond to my post. The fact that you have these stories circulating compounded by the fact that you don’t realize how derogatory it is speaks for itself. this is what you’ve been taught, the way others are spoken about among yourselves to the point that you didn’t even realize how derogatory it was and how inappropriate it was to repeat in this forum. You can try to ‘get out of it’ but it won’t change the facts you yourself just presented regarding where the story circulated, And the message your schools give their young about other peoples Rebbes.
Ha ha coffee addict, don’t be so naive. When three people post and two are graciously thanked it is rarely for the purpose of actually thanking them.
🤭“Ok. I guess I am sorry for you, because you may be guilty of disrespecting a Talmid chochom (by the way you write about him as a result of your assumptions.) which is a problem halachically to put it lightly. No, I am not trying to attack you, I really just feel bad for you.”
This is EXACTLY what we have been saying to you that you label Sinas Chinam. Substitute the word Torah for Talmud chacham. Do you finally understand it know that it is your own thought? You keep calling it bashing when it is just exactly exactly what you just wrote.
“I remember the time in high school when we heard how that day’s story in Yeshiva was that a visiting Rebbe had asked a Lubavitcher bochur a question. The bochur reverently listened, and then registered shock, before he recovered and answered.
The teacher was curious what had transpired, so he asked the bochur what had happened. The bochur said the Rebbe had asked him what the good tourist sights were. He hadn’t expected such a question from a Rebbe.”
You tell over this story as if you really aren’t aware of how disgustingly condescending it is . Are you honestly that naive? I have trouble believing that, just as I have trouble believing it ever happened. Is it my turn now to repeat some high school tales about little litvish boys being appalled by behavior of some Lubavitcher rebbe? Oh please!
“You may believe us to be Kofrim, and you are sincerely trying to find a way to be Matzdik our beliefs ”
wow, a level of understanding that it isn’t sinas chinam!“without denigrating one another, and slandering others as Kofrim R”L.”
oh, I guess not…Ben – why should he apologize when his supporters are happy to tell you it never happened!
woops, it says too controversial for the moderators.
Ok, I take that back…I was basing what i said off the posts of several posters who said exactly that. And from reading Nevilles posts.
“He’s interested in making Chabad look bad…”
no, he was interested in YOU making Chabad NOT look bad. He was trying over and over to get you to straighten out misunderstandings and clearup confusion and you just wouldn’t. He would ask you to clarify and not avoid and you would change the subject. AFTER a lot of that, he became frustrated by the game YOU seemed to be playing and he said we won and should just call it quits. Not as in winning a game, it was ‘win’ as in “I cannot keep asking you over and over to defend your words or come to terms with the damage you are doing to your own movement so I’ll claim victory and call it quits” (correct me Neville if I’m wrong please)
I am very sorry CS, I know you mean well, and I know that this was said to you before in a past thread, but you have done more damage to Chabad thru your posts than good. Your own words, not the feedback or the comments from others.topics too controversial for the coffee room:
feuding chassidishe rebbes
pedophile defenders
why people complain about New York/Lakewood
why New York Lakewood residents call everyone else out-of-towners
ptcha
Rabbi ***** saying that people should ******* the ******
why certain posts get thru when they shouldn’t
income tax forms
bad things done by good jews