The little I know

Daas:

You wrote: “Having a yetzer hora doesn’t mean one isn’t a good therapist.”

That’s correct. But acting upon the urges of that yetzer horah does mean the therapist is not good. Actually, not just not good, but someone who should not be working in the field.

AAQ:

I am somewhat familiar with the psak from Reb Moshe ZT”L. We should take note of the date. For quite a few decades, schools of psychology and social work, and I presume other mental health fields) were adamant that the beliefs of the clients/patients be left alone. These school teach that delving into them is a violation of one’s personal rights, and that this would constitute a violation of professional ethics. At the time of the shailoh and teshuvah with Reb Moshe, this was not the accepted position. Reb Moshe was correct in directing that one should not allow a professional to tinker with one’s emunoh. The fear of the “min” or “kofer” was the tendency they have of seeking to push their agenda, and there would be a need to create boundaries to prevent that.

I will be dan lekaf zechus, that this question is asked out of curiosity and innocence. If that were not the case, I find it incredibly ignorant.

There is not a career without its nisyonos. Yes, kollel yungerleit who invest themselves in their learning are challenged with many things. Many are pressured to provide their homes and fmailies with more, and their ability to be mistapek bemu’at is limited. They can easily follow temptation to get involved in various ruses to claim entitlements that they should not get. Such gezel can become chilul Hashem. One would think that being machmir on kashrus and shiurim would accompany uncompromising honesty in money matters. I am not accusing anyone. These infractions do occur, and I am drawing attention to the reality of the nisayon.

The entire business world, retail and wholesale is full of huge challenges. Genaivoh, gezailoh, genaivas daas, ono’as mamon, ribis, etc. are immense challenges.

Chinuch is not simple either. Embarrassing a talmid is a huge aveiroh. Even the talmid who requires a disciplinary word must not trash the dignity of the child. Malbin pnei chaveiroh is serious enough to block a person from his otherwise destined olan haboh. The Rambam specifies that this includes a victim who is a child.

Rabbonim can pasken wrongly, they can neglect a congregant, they can address a conflict situation while violating shemo’ah bein acheichem, etc.

Every aspect of our world is frought with nisyonos. Now let’s consider the positives:

There is a desperate need in Klal Yisroel to have professionals able and willing to address personal problems. Having such professionals who can perform these needed services without compromising on Torah value is critical.

The mitzvah of restoring, or helping to restore, the simchas hachaim for an individual or couple is huge. Gedolei Yisroel have addressed this subject in numerous ways. Some refer to a mitzvah of hashovas aveidoh. Others to being a shaliach of Hashem to bring about refuah. The Rambam addresses the matter of cholei nefesh and cholei ruach, and equiates it to cholei haguf.

Every barrel has its rotten apples, including the few fields mentioned above. I sincerely hope the question posed was out of ignorance or curiosity.

n0mesorah:

The implied accusation is that too high a percentage of entrants to kolle are doing so because of a trend or style. Our hope that they are engaging in Torah Lishmoh is wishful thinking. It simply doesn’t “paas” for many to go directly to work. “He’s nebach a working boy.” Yet, no one utters a single disappointing word about someone that makes himself into a public expense. I’m not against kollelim. We all did that. But our contemplation about career needs to have been initiated in our teen years. For some who are a good fit for it, full time learning is the direction. For most, it is not.

I once observed that we recite the posuk, ועמך כולם צדיקים. We do not utter ועמך כולם רבנים, nor do we proclaim ועמך כולם חכמים. Those without the erudition in Torah can still be tzaddikim. I know that chassidus had as one of its original tenets the kedusha of the simple Yid who would sustain himself with daily work, perhapos without the scholarship in Torah, but performed mitzvos with devotion and ehrlichkeit. I do not consider a kollel yungerman better than a working boy. Each is fulfilling their takkid. The caste system that labels the honest working boy who does his tafkid as somehow “less than” is missing the point. Did Yaakov Avinu bless his children with various forms of parnosoh, with only Yissachar designated to be the learner? And in most psukim, we find Zevulun mentioned before Yissachar, his older brother.

So if we make it unfashionable to work, we have women doing anything possible to earn a dollar so that the husband/father gets to spend the day in kollel. It cannot not exist. But this as a style is not healthy for the Klal. הרבה עשו כרבי שמעון ולא עלתה בידם.

Yep. Free market. If salaries are too low, the teachers will look for jobs elsewhere. And chinuch for girls, elementary, high school, and seminary will be conducted by single girls recently graduated from the seminaries. You won’t find experienced teachers willing to work for wages that contribute nothing to their tafkid to raise their families (while the husbands learn in kollel). Is that what you want to see happen to girls’ education? There are forces here that contribute to the direction of the “free market”. The problem is not simple or small, and dismissing it out of hand is not smart.

gavk:

I don’t take lightly a comment that says the problem exists but just ignore it and move on. Do you mean to say that if there was a issur on something and the yeshiva made that a rule, that these heilige lomdim would flagrantly violate? It is more important to throw talmidim like this out of the yeshiva than someone whose parents can’t afford tuition. It is not a “simple mistake” to be oveir an issur d’Oraysa that is concurrently an issur of yeshiva policy.

So your choice is to make it muttar? Would you say the same for eating chazzer or shrimp? If everyone will violate the issurim, just legalize it? Maybe we should eliminate that mitzvah of Venishmartem? Is that what you advocate?

As a bochur, you should be bent on doing everything conceivable to follow Dvar Hashem and to become closer to HKBH. Looking to permit indulgence in gashmiyus should NOT be consistent with your thinking.

ADA:

Perhaps you might rewrite your critique of my comment differently if you would study the subject matter. I did so and have amassed a sizable stack of references. Smoking is not just assur as a chumrah. It is halacha psukah. I can provide you with documentation and references. The poskim issuing such psak are the same ones that the general Klal Yisroel – Shomrei Mitzvos – Olam Hatorah revere as their Gedolim. It is correct to note that Many greats of yesteryear smoked, some quite heavily. That predates the extensive documentation on the dangers. Others may have found out more information when it was too late for them to stop. I believe one of the heavy smokers, Rav Fisher ZT”L from the Badatz in Eretz Yisroel continued smoking after he was already dependent on an oxygen tank. He had staunchly refused to concur with the issur on smokinig issued by his colleagues. However, he did make a public statement sometime closer to his passing that he regretted smoking and not being more challenging as a posek. He declared it as an absolute issur.

As for the tons of poskim, I suggest you seek the education about the subject. Here are two seforim you should purchase (or borrow) and review in detail.

פאר תחת אפר

חיים ללא עישון

I will not bother to copy the list of poskim whose statements are quoted there. There are prior threads on the subject in the CR, and you may be able to search and find them. I’m not becoming defensive here. You do not favor smoking any more than I do. But I am relating the strength of the piskei halacha issued from our Gedolei Yisroel, and I am providing resources that prove my point.

Lastly, the aveiroh goreres issue is a decoy. You and I do not know what these bochurim do when away from view. We do not know the sincerity of their connection to the RBSO when confronted with physical desires. No, I would not expect to find a yeshiva bochur who smokes sneaking into Burger King.

I suggest the cause of inequality is the attention paid to the numbers and the yetzer horah to compare and contrast them. I look around, at my family both immediate and extended, the neighbors, the others davening in the shul where I go, and I could bet with certainty that there is a wide variety of incomes represented. Except that no one really cares, and it doesn’t really matter. The latter for multiple reasons.

Someone who is happy with his lot is far better off than someone with greater wealth but who is not happy with his. The tzuris that Klal Yisroel suffers, while sometimes a public or political issue, include many troubles that are experienced by individuals, not always known to others. So if someone has monetary wealth, but a family member who is seriously ill, does their income suggest they are happier?

Granted, someone on a meager salary might not be able to distribute tzedokoh in a manner that resembles the gvir. Is that all there is to our lives? The meager earner that gives according to his ability is doing his mitzvah royally, perhaps more or al least not less than the gvir who doles out the larger sums.

Lastly, מה ה’ שואל מעמך? I thought our existence as Am Yisroel is about what we are, not about what we have. Why are we paying attention to these differences as “inequality”?

Hold onto him long enough to verify who sent him. Find the drug dealer and make sure he wishes he were dead. Drug dealers have a lacha of rodef. Looking for the easy way out, giving him protection of any kind is against halacha and a threat to all.

Does using a screen name protect you like masks would if you were in physical proximity? Or does that just work for computer viruses?

Ys…123:

You wrote: “the absolute worst thing a school can do is capitulate to parents and decide the curriculum based on what they demand.”

Aside from not agreeing with you on this, there is a greater error in your thinking. The parents are not deciding what to teach. They are revolting against the new ideas that are being invited to invade the curriculum. The new garbage is not teaching, it is indoctrinating. That must be STOPPED. It is not about education, and those pushing that agenda know that well. It is about creating a younger generation whose beliefs are in socialism. It has zero to do with slavery. It is about removing patriotism from our texts, and replacing it with discrimination and reverse racism. NO! And anyone with a moral thread needs to resist this. The narrative by evil Dems is that this resistance is domestic terrorism is a malicious lie. Those promoting that need to be voted out of public office.

Phil:

I am not quite as comfortable about someone staying in a bad marriage. I have seen it happen. On occasion, the family can ride it out successfully. But that is the exception. More often, the home environment is bitter. The fights, while perhaps not violent, are destabilizing for the family. Sometimes, they play the game well enough that the neighbors don’t know. But the kids almost always do.

These kids later enter marriages, and get into trouble. They did not merit seeing parents resolve disagreements, and have no model to do this. They then repeat what comprised their environment for most of their formative years. Result: The short term looks positive, with the absence of the bitter wars that characterize so many divorces. The long term is not so rosy, with children entering their own marriages with baggage.

I concur completely with the hiding of mental illness being completely wrong and disgusting. It is serious, and prevalent. I am aware of rabbonim who counsel and advise to withhold such information. The results are major destruction. The Chofetz Chaim was bold in guiding shidduch information to be open and honest, and that phohibition of lashon horah was not relevant to these situations.

Ujm:

May I acquaint you with this Gemara. Sotah 44A.

תנו רבנן אשר בנה אשר נטע אשר ארש לימדה תורה דרך ארץ שיבנה אדם בית ויטע כרם ואחר כך ישא אשה

There are prerequisites to marriage. It is said of Rav Aharon Kotler, who initiated and promoted the concept of kollel in America, that was asked how he could violate this direction of Chazal. He reportedly responded that this was a horo’as sho’oh. That reported dialogue was about skipping the prerequisite steps in order to transplant Torah in America after the Holocaust. That was in the 1940’s.

To extrapolate that readiness for marriage is the intent of Chazal is a given. Do you force a boy or girl into marriage because their time on the clock has run out? Or should they wait if otherwise not ready?

ujm:

Go ahead. Make sure that every bochur is married by 20. But then you should follow the suggestion of Rav Henkin ZT”L. He recommended that when the rav arranges the writing and signing of the kesubah, he should attend to the gett. He probably said that tongue in cheek. But your proposal makes it necessary.

The age for marriage is determined by way too many other factors. And your making date of birth the only one to matter, you are essentially doing publicity for toanim and batei din, and for lawyers and courts. I caould also add in therapists and askanim.

Your statement of “maximum age of 20” is not pshat in the Gemora. So the Roshei Yeshivos who had talmidim learning well past that age were מסייעים לדבר עבירה? If that’s your message, I will not participate in any further discussion.

ujm:

That’s not true or relevant to this conversation. There is specific mention about boys marrying by 18, בן שמונה עשרה לחופה, and the Gemora says הגיע לעשרים ולא נשא אשה תיפח עצמותיו. There is no such statement about girls. If you have one, share the reference. If someone is not marriage material, regardless of any age, there is no posek that would push for marriage. I know that the “til death do us part” is a goyishe expression. But Torah does not push for marriage just to divorce or have a suffering situation because one or both parties are not ready.

Once again, Chazal are making a statement about expectations. Not a deadline.

Spin and narrative are vastly different. The MSM creates fiction, calls it fact, and then builds their crusade on that. It is a digital version of the blood libels that plagued Yidden for centuries. That is morally intolerable.

The conservative media spins things. And, while one might take issue with that, the dishonesty level doesn’r even come close. Here’s a taste. Crime statistics inched upward toward the end of the Trump administration. It was not ignored or dismissed. The President spoke about it often, and was not effective in getting the Democrat cities and states to crack down on crime. Meanwhile, the buffoons in the Biden administration spew all this anti-police gibberish, with Kamala y”sh supporting the violent rioters, murderers, and arsonists, and the bulk of them either pushing or silently supporting the defund police agenda. Did any crfime either stop increasing under Biden or start decreasing? If yes, someone share the numbers. Pointing out this as Biden’s America is a spin, but more accurate than not.

No, I think our news outlets should report facts as facts, and confine opinions to sections labeled accurately. The site, and others, should have the fund raising posts similarly confined, not waved as news stories. All outlets can have opinions. But call them such. Sadly, the cows have already left the barn.

I had a rebbe eons ago that said that the Torah contains one more mitzvah that precedes Beraishis. It reads, “Be a mentch.”

The technicalities that one is obligated or not to give a gett remain true. However, trapping someone in a loveless marriage, where their lives are miserable is nothing to brag about, or to claim that one is abiding by halacha. Abusiveness, even without causing bruises or drawing blood, is still disgusting, and violates the “mitzvah” of being a mentch. There are plenty of guidelines in how to behave in relationships that are not spelled out in halacha. And the Torah gives plenty of consideration to values, ethics, and morals. Precisely what halacha is implied in דרכיה דרכי נועם? Our volumes of mussar, authored by the greats of previous generations are not halacha texts per se. But they are filled with the guidance on how to conduct one’s life to be compatible with Torah value. Just because a man can bask in the glow that he is not obligated to give his wife a gett does not make him a tzaddik, or even a nice guy. Quite the contrary.

Syag:

You wondered: “What kind of person complains about supporting their own kids?”

I wonder whether visiting in court as a spectator is possible. If so, try it. You may have a point, that a father doesn’t really complain about supporting his own children. However, the kids are, by defintion, minors, and this support money is given to their mother. That’s the rub. The man divorcing his wife is not exactly fond of handing her money.

Having said that, the Shulchan Aruch – Rema (Even Hoezer 71) I referenced earlier speaks openly about the father who is a deadbeat and doesn’t want to support his own children. This is not new.

ujm:

You wrote: “That being said, the majority of frum divorces, in fact, do NOT end up in contentious/bitter secular court proceedings. I certainly stand by my assertion that the large majority of frum Yidden are Yirei Shamayim.”

As per the observations of several askanim who are busy with the parsha of divorce in the frum community, the amount of contention is quite high. You might be correct that not all of these end up in secular court. I do not know the numbers. And the issue is not just the number of cases, but the magnitude of bitterness and prolonged conflict that is so destructive to all involved.

I would like to agree with you assertion that a large majority of frum Yidden are Yirei Shomayim. I won’t be mekatreig to say the opposite. But there are a few things worth noting. One – the arena of divorce is highly emotional, and brings out bad midos, eventhose that have been well controlled until now. Two – as much as I wish that one can assume the fellow wearing talis and tefillin at the next table in shul, who is there on time every day, who does not talk during davening, who gives his tzedokoh to the panhandlers regularly is a Yerai Shomayim, it may not be true. I refer to the problem that there are many, many people with dual lives. In public, they conform, and do all as one would hope. In private, there are other dynamics. There are those that (albeit with justifications) cheat in business, are massig gevul, are otherwise dishonest, use their devices (in private) in manners that are not permissible, are apt to gaze where they should not, and numerous other infractions that are away from the public view. I wish your assertion was accurate. Striving for that is a challenge, even for the individual. And today’s world is frought with nisyonos that surpass anything ever imagined by earlier generations. So, I’m not judging, just commenting.

Rabbi Twerski ZT”L once shared with a public forum a story of a talmid of Rav Chaim Vittal who passed away young. He appeared in a dream to his rebbe, and inquired why he received a sentence in BD Shel Maaloh that was punitive. He stated that he was a huge talmid chochom, a mekubal, and a list of other wonderful traits. Rav Chaim Vittal answered him that these positives were all true. “But,” continued Rav Chaim, “At home you were a tyrant. You abused your wife (either emotionally or other).” This Yirai Shomayim, who was indeed accomplished in life, was judged in his abolute judgment according to the rest of his being. I approach the assumptions about YIrai Shomayim with reservation.

ujm:

The deference I give to the secular court is not because I feel they should have a role. It is the consensus of the overwheming majority of rabbonim, batei din and toanim that it is necessary to be in accordance with the court to avoid the potential for other conflict. This might be made into a stronger argument because the batei din (or any other arbitration situation) have no jurisdiction in custody or visitation. And these agreements get filed in secular court. In NYS, anything in the agreement reached in BD concerning these matters is ignored. And the court reserves the right to litigate. In other states, the arrangement might be different. So it is the batei din that defer to the court, or look to rule in accordance. It should also be noted that batei din have a glaring distinction from the courts. The goal of the psak is that both parties agree to it, and that the BD not impose its psak on the two parties. Court does not do that. It rules and imposes.

You seek that BD should rule according to Halacha. Yes, in an ideal world, that might be possible. But I draw you to the Gemora (Bava Metziya 30A) לא חרבה ירושלים אלא שהעמידו דבריהם על דברי תורה. The finality of halacha requires something else besides the strict application of halacha. I would not say this alone. This is a Gemora. In reality, BD tries to “work things out”, which is about creating compromises (also required in halacha).

Same topic, different label. So we see the same comments, many sane, others, not. But mostly all are unwelcome because they generalize. And this is ridiculous because every situation is different. There are men who are jerks, and refusing to give gittin because they are simply not mentchen. I’m not sure that much is accomplished by the drama that some people and organizations do to these individuals, but it does create chilul Hashem, bizyonos, and often damage. And there are many cases, probably the majority that involve delays in giving gittin because the affirs of division are not resolved.

I have encountered many cases where the women made their husbands miserable in court for prolonged months, even years, with no legitimate claim. According to matrimonial attorneys, a huge percentage of claims of abuse, whether against the children or domestic violence, are simply fabrication. (And sometimes they are true.)

While the guy is busy defending himself, having legal expenses that she does not have (she uses the prosecutor’s office), and being publicly shamed much of the time, she has the court fighting for her, penalizing him constantly. Moreover, she finds the tricks to withhold the children from him while making him pay for that, too. No, withholding is cruel. But the issues are not resolved yet, and the severance of the gett is not complete.

This same mecho’oh against men for withholding should also address the women who withhold resolution. And the statistics are alarmingly close to 50-50. So we need not to make generalizations. It’s not the greedy women, and it’s not the cruel men. Divorce is a painful process, and it brings out the worst midos in a person. And way too many divorces are bitter battles, costing everyone lots of money and anguish. The wreckage left behind is horrible for all. Everyone loses (except for toanim and lawyers). The now divorced and single men, women, and the children all suffer.

We should all take note that the organizations that exist to provide support for either the men or the women must be considered suspect here. It is not uncommon that there are individuals who provide “emotional” support for divorcing people, actually guiding them to make the process riddled with accusations and counter accusations, prolonging the cost and agony. How rich the community would become if we concentrated on ways to bring shalom to couples, and assisting them in parting (when this is inevitable) in a peaceful manner.

CTL:

First, I note that I also possess advanced academic degrees. And I have studied the subject matter extensively.

Secondly, I must say boldly that I agree with you. You are linguistically correct in noting the true definition of “discipline”. I confess that I was using the word in its usual spoken vernacular. And, you are correct – punishment is not discipline.

Logician:

The concept of s’char ve’onesh is not at all what we are doing with reward and punishment in our child rearing.

And, according to your expertise, what is the message of Antignus Ish Socho – Al tiheyu ka’avodim hameshamshim es horav al m’nas lekabel prass etc.?

And I suggest that the Mods take this thread down completely. The very headline is misinformation.

U:

I am not suggesting that one must say every piyut. You are correct, a little with kavanah is better than a lot without. I am referring to either babbling through it to get done fatser. I am also addressing those who skip parts just to rush, perhaps to get to work earlier, etc. Starting earlier. A talmid chochom who I share the minyan with, begins selichos almost 10 minutes early so that he can keep up.