The little I know

CS:

As first port of call, I agree that this is sometimes indicated. Often, it is not. By the time many couples reach out for intervention, the dysfunction has progressed to a very serious place. There are many other factors that are outside the domain of the most well intentioned Rov. There are psychological and psychiatric conditions that can be involved. This is not the exception either. And the untrained will seek to focus on what would otherwise be good advice, while missing the forest for the trees.

I haven’t a clue about those unhappy people who went to therapy. There are unhappy people who have gone to therapy, and many who have not. Your use of this as a representative is connecting dots that are unrelated. There are mood disorders that are partially relieved by therapy, not necessarily making the person happy, but improving function. Might a dose of spirituality help them? Perhaps. But there are plenty for whom this is not the missing ingredient. Meanwhile, your maligning therapy as contraindicated except in a small number of exceptional cases is baseless.

I, too, use spirituality in my guidance for people. It is a precious tool. But it is often not the deficiency that is responsible for the condition, and it is also not always the cure. There were Gedolei Yisroel who had various conditions. Shall I quote the Brisker Rov ZT”L who had OCD? How about a few of the Chassidic Masters who had mood disorders? Were they not erudite enough or lacking in spirituality to overcome their conditions?

As I noted earlier, there are important roles for everyone. Rabbonim have much to offer, and many are quite perceptive and insightful. Anomg the frum therapists, there are quite a few that are quite learned. And there is much cooperation and collaboration among them. I would not dismiss the professionals as purveyors of goyishe values, nor would I consider the average Rov a competent therapist (the Rov, in all odds, does not claim to be a therapist either). Your generalizations are not supported by the facts. I do not challenge your experience. But that does not reflect accurately on the global scene.

CS:

You draw attention to R’ Sholom Mordechai Rubashkin. He is exemplary, but he is also an anomaly. It is truly spectacular that he remained what he did throughout the torturous isolation. He is worthy of all the raise and admiration, and then some. And he was able to utilize Torah sources for his chizuk, which he described in his book and in countless speeches since then. We would all do well to have our lives run in a spiritual manner.

I do not fault anyone for approaching their Rov with a personal issue, whether individual or marital. I am repeating myself, but for good reason. The Rov who is within his domain will utilize whatever resources he has to be helpful. Yet, there are a great many situations for which the average Rov is likely unequipped. Having professionals to consult or to refer to is critical. This concept is well known among the experienced rabbonim, and the Gedolei Yisroel repeat this often.

You continue to castigate the professionals as people who deliver goyishe values to their clientele. That is parently false. In fact, the true professional does not impose their values on clients. And even more important, the professionals learned their science from the goyishe resources, יש חכמה בגוים, but have not subscribed to their values. And if you would mingle with these professionals, you would discover people who actually are well respected by the greatest of the rabbonim of all facets of the frum community. You will find people who are regular “chavrusas” to the great talmidei chachomim in our community. You will find quite a number of them are talmidei chachomim in their own right. And I challenge you to locate any of them who bypass Torah value for the goyishe standards as you accuse.

Lastly, it is not the role of the frum therapist to teach Torah. Most that I know use Torah in their work often. And if they recognize that a client would benefit from Torah and Mitzvos as part of their healing, they would certainly support that.

You do need to revisit your beliefs about the frum professional community. See what is fact and what is fiction. My exposure is quite different, and your accusations are pathetic and baseless.

CS:

You are doing a great disservice to the public. Much of what you say is mistaken, and you should be taking sheker seriously. There are also misperceptions. Allow me to clarify.

You average Rov/Rebbetzin is either untrained or undertrained, and generally inexperienced to assist with a troubled marriage. Ignoring whether they have a good marriage themselves, there is a huge amount of information that training provides. Whether this comes from a secular or Jewish text, professor, teacher, or training program is inconsequential.

Now, you also need to recognize what most gedolei Yisroel already do. There is a ballooning growth of frum mental health professionals, who are not just professionally trained and experienced, but work together with Rabbonim and Gedolei Yisroel all the time. Many of these professionals convene at conferences like Nefesh International, and the mental health Track at the Agudah Convention. They are in constant contact with Daas Torah, mutually providing their experiences so that the therapists can maintain their Torah connection while providing responsible services, and Rabbonim giving advice and paskening shailos are doing so from a educated perspective. Instead of declaring these therapists being in ignorance of Torah, why don’t you connect with some and discover how wrong you are. Then ask the rabbonim what they think about the professionals.

A Rov/Rebbetzin without such background and experience can be among those who give dangerous guidance and advice. It is too often that marriages are torn apart by the ignorant advice from the Rov who considers their erudition in Torah a qualification to behave as a therapist.

The discussion here has morphed into something embarrassing. Just a few notes:

1. The environment/culture is constantly changing. So is the reaction to it. Mental illness can easily be getting worse, without regard to the growth of the “industry” of therapists and medications.

2. The lay person often wants to appear more educated and knowledgeable than he/she really is. You may theorize why this is so. But we do observe it almost everywhere. The comments about where and when to use medications are laughable. None of the commenters here have the training, experience, and expertise to know anything about it. The casual remarks border on the comical.

3. Halacha is misused by many, with priorities that halacha accounts for being ignored, and chumros being considered mainstream halacha that is relevant to all. Our Chazal guide us to have a Rav that provides guidance. We should all have someone that can guide our Avodas Hashem so that we don’t treat minhagim and halachos in a manner that either underplays or overplays their true significance.

4. All halachos and mitzvos exist for our betterment. Ideally, we should be thrilled and proud of our adherence to every mitzvah and halacha. This includes tznius and many other things. Presenting them with a fire and brimstone approach is not true chinuch. It might be bullying, it might be control, but not chinuch. Ask our Gedolei Yisroel. Read up on how the master mechanchim and Gedolei Yisroel addressed the subject of chinuch. There is a groundswell of such seforim, many in English as well. There are even several role models that can be studied for how to abandon the fire and brimstone, and thereby actually bring our younger generation to a place where they love Hashem, His Torah, and mitzvos.

5. Mental illness really exists. It is ignorant to dismiss everything as bad middos. And there are conditions for which medication is the most important intervention. Yes, many feel stigma regarding medication. But medication gets a bad rap by those who know nothing about it. I leave diagnostics to the professionals, and the prescribing of medications to those trained to do so. Psychiatry has grown to be more focused on medication use, since the number of fields of trained professionals to conduct therapy has grown. We might debate whether there has been enough training, but that would be separate thread. Basically, running around and proclaiming that these meds are being overused, underused, or misused makes me think, “Pardon, your ignorance is showing”. The field of mental health has progressed greatly in many ways, and much more is understood than just a few decades ago. Like much else in life, it has fallen under influences of culture, where ideologies that are foreign have affected judgment. For the most part, the majority of issues facing the mental health field have little to no relevance to the woke culture, and remain mostly scientific. And I leave the rest to the experts. I fail to see any of the above comments reflecting expertise.

I am impressed with the degree of foolishness exposed in the OP. What energizes the audacity to determine the quality of a yeshiva? For one talmid, the so-called “best” yeshiva would be a disaster. For another talmid, the “worst” could be producing a Gadol Hador. Is the number of boys that enter Brisk the yardstick?

It’s one thing to explore the characteristics of a yeshiva. It’s another thing to rate them. That smacks of holier than thou, and this is not consistent with Torah value.

What would Rav Aharon ZT”L say?

I am intrigued by this topic. It calls into focus our critical need to examine what’s working and what’s not. And the question is similarly critical. But I suggest that we ask a different question first. Rav Aharon pioneered the kollel system as we know it in the 1940’s. His intention was to transplant the Torah that was destroyed in Europe to exist in America. There was a desperate need for yeshivos that would become centers for Torah learning, with products of yungerleit that could continue the chain of giving over Torah to future generations. And that was immensely successful. The Kol Torah achieves higher decibels continually.

But Rav Aharon was reportedly posed with a question. The Gemora (Sotah 42a) explicitly says that the proper way of the world is to establish a home, arrange parnosoh, and then marry, in that order. If kollel set marriage first, and parnosoh later, wasn’t this in violation of Divrei Chazal? To this, it is reported that Rav Aharon responded that his mission of creating the kollel system was a “horo’as sho’oh”. It was made for the moment, and was mandated by the situation.

The argument then becomes that this temporary “fix” has converted into a permanent state. Was this part of the plan? I can hear the argument either direction. But I rest my laurels on this approach. I do not believe we have the ability to say definitively what would have been. That sort of knowledge does not exist in our world, and it resides only in the Heavenly spheres. It goes under the category of “nistaros”.

All we can do is examine whether the system is working. Is the growing metropolis of Lakewood effective in promulgating the values of Torah life that was Rav Aharon’s life mission? Are the yungerleit continuing the banner of Torah, or are they just avoiding the responsibility of building their homes on their own backs? Has kollel life morphed into a culture of dependency, with the features of entitlement and egotistical ideas of klai kodesh? All good questions. What we cannot do is to reach into the crevices of the unknown, and to guess what Rav Aharon ZT”L would have said. I think he would have stated as I believe, and you feel the opposite. We’re right back where we started.

In summary. The community in Lakewood has grown immensely, and like anything else in life, it has its pluses and minuses. We should believe that Rav Aharon would have been genuinely pleased with the pluses. We might also believe that he would have been horrified by the negatives. What conclusion would he have reached? I have no ruach hakodesh, so I pass on that.

The quote from the Chazon Ish in an earlier comment is something I heard expressed this way. He reportedly commented that the initial task of yeshivos immediately after the Holocaust was to re-establish Torah study. This meant focusing on the tzibbur – the population of the younger generation. But now (must have been prior to his passing which was in 1953) we have accomplished that goal, and our focus now must be on the individual.

My interpretation is that gearing to the masses is not the mission of chinuch any longer, and that the primary responsibility is to assist and guide each individual to achieve his maximum. I suppose if we had a perfectly verbatim quote, we would be in better to position to ascertain his intended message. If anyone can reference the exact wording, we all stand to benefit.

C’mon man.

The yeshiva system has zero chinuch thatis individualized that would produce the greatest talmidei chachomim. Large groups of bochurim are herded into a yeshiva/kollel, provided a shiur with a person of stature (Rosh Yeshiva, Magid Shiur, etc.), and everything is provided for the numbers of talmidim as a group. Missing here is the obvious. No two talmidim are identical. SOme need to delve more into amkus and pilpul, others into halacha, and yet others into bekiyus. It should be the responsibility of every Rosh Yeshiva to know the talmidim inside out to be able to guide them to achieve their maximum. That is only done individually, never en masse. But our current systems of chinuch at every single level are more similar to public schools and universities, where the same shiur is given to all, and all are expected to mold to the system to excel. We have all this talk about “find the right yeshiva” for a bochur. That is inherently flawed. The yeshiva needs to accommodate the talmid. חנוך לנער על פי דרכו. Nowhere does it even hint to molding the talmid to accommodate to the derech of a rebbi. The very notion of a curriculum, as we observe it in our yeshivos, is foreign to true Torah chinuch. Before jumping on me, review Hilchos Talmud Torah from Rav Shulchan Aruch, then Hilchos Talmud Torah in Rambam, then the sizable number of seforim from Gedolei Yisroel on chinuch. Then I can join a debate.

Reb Eliezer:

You are accurate about what should be. This was not quite as common in the Litvishe circles until more recently, but was always a central point among the chassidishe communities. However, it is also noteworthy, quite sadly, that there are some that have forgotten the tachlis, and gotten stuck in the process. Yes, there are those that deify their leaders. I would bet that you have observed this, too. How unfortunate that these innocent Gedolim have been casted by some to be something they are not.

I don’t recall the name of the Rov who guided parents to assess whether the prospective mechutanim were the kind of people one might be able to handle a gett with. If yes, they could be suitable mechutanim who would get along with them.

AAQ: You listed issues that are of really dubious value as superficial matters that can be used to knock names off the list, such as nusach, politics, sports, gebrokts, etc. I hope you were injecting a drop of humor here. I need to say that because I have seen otherwise great shidduchim bypassed irresponsibly with these trivia as the breakers. Conversely, I have seen shidduchim where these factors all matched that became disastrous, ending up in bitter, highly contested divorces.

TS Baum:

You are correct in principle, though your lomdus needs correction. The Gemora (Taanis 8b – 9a) says עשר בשביל שתתעשר, that in the nmerit of tzedokoh, one merits wealth. The Novi (Malachi 3:1) stated ובחנוני נא בזאת, from which the Chazal explained that one may “test” HKB”H with the mitzvah of tzedokoh that will merit the giver wealth. The Tur and Shulchan Aruch refer to this. Tzedokoh is the one mitzvah that one may perform without the intention of “lishmoh”, and even do so with the ulterior motive of meriting parnosoh. You are certainly on target by referencing the mitzvah of tzedokoh.

Yes, we find many references in Shas and Medrash for things that merit parnosoh. They are all holy and true. What I am about to say does not mitigate this a bit.

When the Satmar Rov (Divrei Yoel) was asked about the known segulah of reciting Parshas Hamohn, he reportedly said openly that this is effective until 8:59 am. From 9:00, the person should use the segulah called working.

The concept of segulah, as we are using it in this discussion, is a trick that provides us with something that we did not otherwise earn. This is highly suspect, and I have trouble believing that this is the intended role. Picture a young able bodied person spending his day reciting Parshas Hamohn, and avoiding going to work. Shall we believe that this the intention of that segulah? I know I don’t. A segulah is a supplement that we can use to potentiate the activities we employ to accomplish a task. It is not a substitute. And it is sad that many approach segulos that way.

And many other things are also in this category. Davening by kivrei tzaddikim is a precious gem. Mekomos hakedoshim are particularly auspicious. But to treat a medical illness by refraining from medical care and sitting around in cemeteries, even by big tzaddikim is irresponsible. The velt seems to use segulos in a childish manner, to get them off the hook from being responsible. It’s time for a little maturity.

This thread contains the usual stupidity that gets repeated here annually. We read comments about being “machmir” to get drunk, as if the Rem”o and the Mishnah Brurah are finding loopholes. Then we hear about how the gedolei Yisroel who openly condemn the inebriation are in error, while the rest of the year, they bow on their knees to the same Daas Torah. And, as mentioned earlier, the subject of pikuach nefesh is completely ignored. The biggest trouble with these discussions is that the obvious message of drinking in moderation or to drink responsibly is considered blaphemous, even though it comes from Gedolei Poskim, Hatzoloh, medical professionals, and other experts in the fields of chinuch and addictions. Articles, presentations by video, podcast, etc. are considered entertaining, but ignored when it comes to following them in real life. Hypocrisy fares quite well, and the violators claim that this is “halacha”.

I have yet to hear of these same plastered machmirim extending themselves to shower more matanos lo’evyonim. No, ‘cuz that’s not halacha. Sorry, friends, but halacha is not what you want it to be, but what it is. And I turn to our leaders who shun the shikruso shel Lot emphatically. When drunk, one cannot engage in Avodas Hashem. So says the Rambam. Wanna talk halacha? Start with what the greatest poskim of our history told us. Then how about the Gedolei Yisroel who are a beacon of light in our dark golus.

The consequences of being accused are very serious. Aside from those that involve the courts, the wreckage to someone’s reputation, employment, family, etc. are devastating. It’s not about protecting the molester. It’s about allowing the devastation to progress only where there is credibility to the accusation. Whether that gets proven by a court or otherwise, I don’t care. Those consequences are also dinei nefashos. And we cannot use statistics to pasken these questions. We need to have something verified. In reality, we do not need to commit all these devastating moves for the accused. We need to take any and all immediate steps to protect the victims and potential victims. This may mean suspending from a job or moving out of a home. But the publicity that leads to all the other consequences needs to based on verified information, not statistics.

Correction:

Silly wabbit. Twix are for kids.

This entire discussion is more shallow than superficial. There is a glaring question that is either beyond the awareness or simply denied. We are told that מזונותיו של אדם קצובין לו מראש השנה עד ראש השנה. Could someone rely on that and not bother working? There are several answers to this? Here’s one.

The קצובין provides the allocation of this parnosoh. Trump allocated money to build the Wall. While Hashem will not withdraw the allocation, if the receiver fails to merit the delivery of it, it rermains unspent. People who write budgets for businesses understand this well. All the segulos won’t help the one that will fail to merit it or provide a conduit for the shefa.

Lastly, there are numerous known segulos for parnosoh. Many of these are commonplace, done by all, yet seem to have failed in the expected wealth. Others are also well referenced in Divrei Chazal, yet we have no campaigns or publicity. I can provide ample references if anyone here wants them.

GH:

Segulos have become a subject of heavy marketing, and I seem to share the disgust in this. Tzedokoh is a wonderful thing. And when we give, we should not be purchasing anything. While it is true that one can ask for reward for giving tzedokoh, sacreligious for all other mitzvos, this has been taken to an illogical level, and actually poses a threat to our fulfilling mitzvos as Dvar Hashem that we follow to become closer to Hashem. The treasure of segulos is hinted in countless places throughout Chazal, and the greats of all subsequent generations have accessed this inyan as well. So not denying the existence of segulos in general, I am horrified when I see them become the subject of marketing. Cuiases, otherwise worthy and charitable, now suggest that they are the supreme resources for various brochos, heretofore the domain of HKB”H.

The seguloh of Parshas Hamon – reciting it daily is referenced widely, including the annotations on Shulchan Aruch. It didn’t make it into the siddur as a hoax. And the sopurce for reciting it with שנים מקרא ואחד תרגום is also mentioned by Acharonim from long ago. The relevance to Tuesday of Beshalach is the hoax. It was created by a prankster in the early post war years. There is not even an explanation for why that day is any more auspicious than any other calendar date. The spread of this hoax just testifies the level to which our community expect shortcuts in Avodas Hashem.

The Satmar Rov – Divrei Yoel ZT”L is quoted regarding the seguloh of reciting Parshas Hamon, stating that it works up until 8:59 am. From 9:00 and on, the seguloh for parnosoh is to go to work. It’s like expecting the win the lottery without buying a ticket.

I discussed this with a friend who is a therapist. The office was located in a hospital, and it was located within several offices and large treatment rooms, so there was frequent traffic. When sxeeing an opposite gender client/patient, the therapist would ask a secretary to come to the door and open it at some point durinf the session hour. This was done all the time. when the sessions were sheduled at hours that the secretary was not there, the therapist npotified the security guard in the building to do a pop-in. The client/patient was notified of this.

This not only fulfilled the halacha requirement, as instructed by a posek, but it also provided a measure of safety that would be recognized by a secular court.

Having experienced quite a few situations of broken shidduchim, boys’ side and girls’ side, I must comment on the generalizations that are typical to these discussions. Boys and girls are very different, in their values, their tendencies, their middos, and all of this is dwarfed by the individual differences between any two people.

The factors in every situation are unique. And many of the issues may well be beyond human grasp. Imagine that someone can share a rational reason for wanting in or out of a shidduch. We can converse about this, agree, disagree, and our thoughts and positions on this may actually matter. However, if the reasons that someone is attracted to or repelled by a prospective chosson or kallah emanate from the emotional side, all our discussions are a huge waste of time. People differ on how much emotional connection they want to feel to enter into a shidduch or to withdraw from it. You cannot legislate emotion.

We have all heard prescriptions from various people, sometimes professionals, sometimes roshei yeshiva, sometimes just friends and acquaintances on how many dates someone needs to have before looking to conclude a shidduch. I frown on these bits of advice, as they generalize something with is specific and unique to each individual.

ymribiat:

I answered your question quite well. You made a glaring insinuation that the field of mental health providers is not a “frum” field because of its nisyonos. I’m sorry, but that message is patently absurd. And I explained my points quite clearly. The nisyonos you mentioned are known, and are addressed daily by all therapists of all the involved disciplines. And I also implied that every barrel will have its rotten apple, which does not suggest that apples be banned. On the positive side, the needs for these services are immense, and we are witness to growing numbers of frum men and women stepping up to the challenge to help Klal Yisroel. You did acknowledge the need. Well, some people are taking that call and directing their lives and careers to provide desperately needed help. Therapists I know can all point to individuals and families that are functioning far better, and able to fill their roles in their communities and Klal Yisroel. Had you asked this question 50 years ago, I might have wondered. But today, there is a great amount of alliance between the professionals, Gedolei Yisroel, Roshei Yeshivos, Rabbonim, Dayanim, Poskim, etc. Again, you might be able to point to some bad apples. But the field today is in its prime and constantly improving. Your labeling it as certainly being “not a frum” profession is either ignorant or malicious.

I find the dialogue here very disturbing. The severity of the alleged crimes is huge, no denying or minimizing that. The actions taken, however, can easily be done without attention to the rule of halacha, and to no one’s benefit.

Here’s a fictitious scenario. Rabbi Ploni is alleged to have committed the unspeakable, with a number of victims who are minors. These victims need to say something, and they need to be taken seriously. Yes, proper interrogation and evaluation is critical. But all of this does not pronounce the alleged perpetrator guilty. Yet, we need to accept the complaints with appropriate seriousness to take whatever steps are needed to protect potential victims. This rebbe needs to step away from his charge immediately, without the fanfare of media and social media. There are halachos about safety, no different than halachos about not damaging a not-yet guilty man. And let’s not forget halachos of lashon horah.

The percentage of false accusations does not need to be high to affect out approach. We would not accept erring about the minute chance of finding a bug in our vegetables, and we should not err here either. But that does not diminish our obligation to take necessary safety measures, and remove the alleged perpetrator from a position of power and easy access to potential victims.

Treating the accused as innocent and allowing the situation of the past to continue might be a percentage of risk that we cannot take, whatever the number is. Err on the side of safety and caution. Publicity serves no one’s purpose, and harms without redeeming benefit.

Yes, the anonymity of the accused needs to remain. No one has ever proven the safety gained by going public. I know the fanatic advocates in the area of child abuse will be incensed by my words. Well, that’s too bad.

I actually agree with you. The hiusbands should be working and supporting their homes and families. It should not be the job of the wife/mother. The stark reality is that you wpould seek to eliminate the kollel as a fixture for all young marrieds. I do believe that kollel should be far more restricted for those who would succed in the present and future from the kollel learning. For the other huge majority, they should have resources to continue to be koveya ittim while working (and/or training for a career). But I do not anticipate find much change here, and will acquiesce to accepting the status quo. So husbands will not be doing the working or earning. And keeping their wives on meager wages is untenable.

Eved:

I find your comment shocking. Your mashgiach told you clearly that smoking is ossur d’Oraysa. You then run to ask the Rosh Yeshiva? Really? If that is your relationship to talmidei chachomim, you seem to want to pick and choose. You distrust the mashgiach?

Why are you even asking? You were given a hora’ah. Oh, you’re addicted to tobacco. That permits trashing the psak from the mashgiach. That’s your problem. Your personal drives and desires are allowed to shape your adherence to halacha. Such a shame to adopt a derech like this. It flaunts your personal taavos as priorities over Torah and Halacha. And you are a yeshiva bochur?

Reb E:

Thanks for checking. To anyone who checks out the sefer: Peruse the haskamos, read through the direct quotes in the sefer from the array of gedolim. Note the overwhelming majority who did not just say it is ossur, but that it is an issur d’Oraysa.

I heard from older talmidim from Lakewood that Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L stated this openly. I was told that it is recorded, though I have not heard that recording.