Forum Replies Created
I second Toi’s comment. Growing up in America I never heard the term chareidi, and all shomrei mitzvos I knew referred to themselves as “frum”. If they needed to make distinctions, then some people were “yeshivish” or “black hat”, as opposed to “modern Orthodox”.
The difference between yeshivish and chareidi is pretty clear. Chareidim live in Israel; frum Jews in chutz la’aretz aren’t chareidi. The cultural nuances are completely different.
akuperma, what is the definition of yeshivish and what is the definition of chareidi? You seem to be defining yeshivish as “litvish chareidi”, which seems totally arbitrary to me. Do chasidim and sefardim not also have yeshivos?
Growing up in America, I don’t think I ever heard the term chareidi until I was about 15. I think it is still true that most shomrei mitzvos in America describe themselves as “frum”, and if they need to distinguish between different groups of frum Jews they talk about “yeshivish” or “black hat” as opposed to “modern Orthodox” or “kippa seruga”. I think the use of chareidi to describe American frum Jews is a very recent phenomenon, and incorrect, since the nuances between frum Jews in Israel and America are completely different.
Do you all realize that no one here has defined the meaning of “holy”, so everyone here is discussing a different question? From a halchic standpoint, it has been quite obviously shown that Yiddish is a lashon chol with no kedusha. Does Yiddish deserve respect as a time-hallowed, exclusively Jewish language, which can connect Ashkenazi Jews to their European heritage? I think only those with an anti-Yiddish agenda would deny that.October 18, 2018 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm in reply to: Which is Worse Publically Converting or Publically OTD? #1607194
I have no idea what point the OP was making with this question, but some people here seem to have rushed to express their opinion on the kids who go off the derech today and insist that they are in pain, not resha’im. I don’t think that is relevant to this discussion.
To reword what I think the question was: Is it worse for someone who – for whatever reason – doesn’t want to keep mitzvos anymore to go ahead and publically do aveiros, or to convert to some other religion? I think worded that way, the question basically answers itself.
So the reason why the person stopped being frum isn’t relevant to the question. But are all the people insisting that everyone OTD is escaping pain going to say the same thing about people who convert to other religions?
ומה לגבי אנגלית?
Make a point- Nothing about Yiddish or German is Nazi. It’s completely coincidental that the Nazis happened to speak German. Just about every language has been spoken by antisemites, and German has been spoken by Jew-killers probably since the Yiddish language developed. The German language didn’t become pasul because of the Nazis, nor did English become pasul when the Jews were expelled from England, or French during the Crusades.July 14, 2018 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm in reply to: Baltimores chassidish community is growing by leaps and bounds!!!! #1557702
The Yeshiva Lane community isn’t really relevant. You can only live there if you are in the Ner Yisroel kollel and there’s a long waiting list.
Time for Truth- Do you have the text of where R’ Reuven says this? I highly doubt he meant that Yiddish is literally lashon hakodesh. Would he pasken that when the Mishnah says birchas kohanim can only be said in lashon hakodesh, it can also be said in Yiddish?
Yiddish is a means to an end, not an end in itself. It is useful to use a Jewish language to prevent assimilation and keep continuity with previous generations, but no language is holy except the language the Torah was written in. I assume R’ Reuven’s considerations were along these lines, not that he held Yiddish actually has the kedushah of lashon hakodesh.July 12, 2018 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm in reply to: Baltimores chassidish community is growing by leaps and bounds!!!! #1557425
It’s true that the Baltimore is moving more to the right – that’s also true of most frum communities in America. Those in the MO community who are bothered by this trend should do some brainstorming to figure out ways to keep their communities vibrant and inspiring, and encourage serious Torah learning that will produce future MO rabbis.
Still, I think Baltimore, as an “out-of-town” community, is a pretty inclusive place for MO families, and I hope there are still shuls there where no one cares what color your shirt or hat is, or whether you wear one at all (I mean the hat 🙂
I think the claim that most non-frum Jews in America today are goyim is exaggerated. Most American Jews haven’t been in the country more than four or five generations and it’s not hard to trace back to an ancestor who was Jewish in Europe. If someone’s mother’s mother’s mother etc. was considered Jewish in 1880 when they came to America, we can assume that they are also Jewish, no matter how assimilated. The Jews who were in America pre-Civil War are almost all completely assimilated today and don’t even consider themselves Jewish, even if they have Jewish last names. But someone who considers themself Jewish very likely is, or if their mother converted they would know that.
What does it mean for Yiddish to be “holy”? Only Biblical Hebrew is lashon hakodesh, not any other language (like Modern Hebrew, Yiddish, Ladino, Judeo-Arabic, Yeshivish, etc.). Knowing Yiddish is very valuable because it allows you to connect with past generations of Jews who used this language and with thousands of Jews who still use it. (This is more relevant if you are Ashkenazi; if you are Sefardi, Yiddish is basically a foreign language). But Yiddish is only a tool, not something of value in its own right.
Randomex- Have the gedolim made such statements about the general population as well? Is it even true that the average Yossel nowadays is on a lower spiritual level than his counterpart living 100, 200 or 1000 years ago?
The mishna in Nega’im (2:1) which mdd quoted is: רבי ישמעאל אומר, בני ישראל, אני כפרתן, הרי הן כאשכרוע, לא שחורים ולא לבנים, אלא בינוניים.
I don’t know what color אשכרוע wood is, but it would seem that most Ashkenazim are lighter than that and many Yemenites, for example, are darker. We see also that the mishna in Nedarim (3:8) says: הנודר משחורי הראש אסור בקירחים ובבעלי שיבות ומותר בנשים ובקטנים שאין נקראין שחורי הראש אלא אנשים.
The Rav explains:
שאין נקראים שחורי הראש אלא אנשים – לפי שהאנשים פעמים מכסים ראשם ופעמים מגלים ומשחרות ראשם ניכר שהם אנשים, אבל נשים לעולם הולכות וראשם מכוסה. והקטנים בין זכרים בין נקבות הולכין בגילוי הראש ואינם ניכרים בין זכר לנקבה, ומשום הכי לא אקרו שחורי הראש אלא האנשים הגדולים:
Clearly the vast majority of Jews in the time of Chazal had black hair. Probably influxes of geirim and changes of climates have changed the appearance of many modern Jews. DNA tests of many different Jewish populations have suggested that we all share Middle Eastern ancestry.October 24, 2017 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm in reply to: Are all these protests in Jerusalem really a kiddush hashem? #1389299
Thanks for the compliments. I’ll try to stick to the ancient Indian proverb from now on.October 24, 2017 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm in reply to: Are all these protests in Jerusalem really a kiddush hashem? #1389257
I apologize for the attack. I posted before your complimentary post cleared.
I misunderstood your point. I personally don’t believe the only choices are to be drafted into the army or to act like a hooligan (or to leave). Even those who support these protests should agree that no one has yet been forced to join the army against their will. If you don’t want to register with the army, you can always get thrown into jail coming back from a bein hazmanim trip. You don’t have to get arrested at a violent hafganah. (Although maybe the police would have an easier time if all those it recognizes as deserters all convened in one large hafganah so they can arrest them all in one place.)October 24, 2017 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm in reply to: Are all these protests in Jerusalem really a kiddush hashem? #1389221
Tom Dick n Harry: Are you really serious that anyone who disagrees with the medinah should leave Eretz Yisrael?! What’s hypocritical about living in Eretz Yisrael, under the rule of the Zionist government, and disagreeing vociferously with some of its policies? True, as the situation is now, the existence of Jewish settlement in Eretz Yisrael depends on army to defend it. But that army does not necessarily have to be against the Torah. The non-Torah lifestyle of the chilonim and their army is not what we are benefitting from; we are benefitting from the fact that there is an army bichlal. Since that army right now is no place for a ben Torah, we can’t be part of it. But it’s ridiculous to claim that our only non-hypocritical choices are to support everything the medinah stands for or leave. Why should we leave? This is our land.October 24, 2017 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm in reply to: Are all these protests in Jerusalem really a kiddush hashem? #1389182
MTAB: I’m not in my comfortable living room chair in America, I’m in Eretz Yisrael and every day I’m unsure of how long it will take me to get home from Yerushalayim because of the actions of a bunch of hooligans.
I understand the fear and panic, but that doesn’t justify this type of behavior. All of this is coming from a sense of panic that the chareidi world as we know it will come to an end. But is that an excuse to change yeshiva bochurim from bnei aliyah who can be recognized for their middos and refined behavior into people who act obnoxiously? Where does this mindset of “the end justifies the means” come from? Isn’t that the antithesis of Torah? I believe it was R’ Yisrael Salanter who said “men darf nit oiftun, men darf tun”. Our job is not to get results; that’s not in our hands. All we can do is carry out what Hashem wants from us.
I realize we live in difficult, scary times. But we have no right to do whatever seems to us most likely to get results if it is not muttar and proper behavior. At the end of the day Hashem is in charge.October 19, 2017 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm in reply to: Are all these protests in Jerusalem really a kiddush hashem? #1387241
In any case, this is a vicious cycle that will continue until one side or the other backs down. The question is how much damage will have been done in the meantime, and will this really have benefitted the chareidi public in Eretz Yisrael?October 19, 2017 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm in reply to: Are all these protests in Jerusalem really a kiddush hashem? #1387238
DY, that’s because it’s unpolitically correct for the cops to be seen as racists. However, it is pretty politically correct to be anti-chareidi, and violent protests seen by the general public as stupid, at best, only make that more politically correct. Look at some of the comments here, posted by frum Jews, about these potesters, and now imagine what the opinion of the chiloni on the street must be of them.
According to dina di’Gmara, there are simanim of which birds are kosher and which only aren’t. The acaharonim were afraid that we can no longer recognize which birds are kosher based on these simanim alone, so they instituted a chumra not to eat birds without a mesorah. The Jews of Bayis Rishon didn’t need a mesorah on chickens since they could use simanim. So would Ravina and Rav Ashi, and probably most rishonim.October 19, 2017 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm in reply to: Are all these protests in Jerusalem really a kiddush hashem? #1387226
DY, I understand what the end game is. What I cannot fathom, though, is how these protests are expected to further that goal.
My understanding of the concept of Daas Torah is that it is wisdom granting a person more shikul daas than non-talmidei chachamim. So your rav may not know more information than trained professionals, but once he is given the information he can weigh both sides of the issue better than a professional who is not a talmid chacham.
Of course, not every guy with smicha possesses that level of wisdom. A real chacham can also recognize when an issue is out of his league and refer the questioner to a greater talmid chacham.October 19, 2017 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm in reply to: Are all these protests in Jerusalem really a kiddush hashem? #1387212
I don’t understand what the hava amina of those who call for these protests is. (I don’t care for the moment whether R’ Shmuel supports these disruptive protests or not.) What are they meant to accomplish, other than inconveniencing thousands of people and making chareidim look really bad? Do they really think the government will say, “Oh, they’re blocking traffic again. Let’s just release all the bochurim who have been arrested and immediately pass a law that no chareidi should ever be required to register for the draft again.” Really?!
Also, what did they expect. Fine, their psak is not to register for the draft. Of course, the police will arrest anyone who does so and becomes a deserter by law. So then they will stage a protest and block traffic, and the police will come and arrest protesters, and then they will protest again, and then they will arrest more people etc. etc. Isn’t this an endless cycle and an exercise in futility?
I think there’s still room for a tefilla for the government, as a government, in the US. We need government to keep order, like Chazal said ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????, and the common people don’t have that power. That why they elect officials and we have government offices to do those jobs. But I hear akuperma’s point that a tefilla for the president as an individual is un-American. Definitely whoever adapted the European tefilla for America used un-American language. “?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????”? Would anyone refer to the POTUS that way?
They don’t, they’re just the ones powerful enough to cover it up.
A rabbi in a shiur did it. So if he’s a rabbi, ask him.
I don’t know who this rabbi is and what point he was trying to make, but this is an old argument usually used to validate non-frum movements in Judaism. The claim is basically that charedi rejection of modernity (chadash asur min hatorah and all that) is a reaction to secularism and didn’t exist before the 1800’s. Since before then there was no modern culture to reject, that rejection of modernity can’t be considered an intrinsic part of Judaism and is in itself an innovation.
I think this is really just a game of semantics, though. You can call it whatever you want- Orthodoxy, charedism, ultra-Orthodoxy, etc., but in all assential ways frum Judaism today is the same as it was 200, 400, 800, or 1400 years ago. I’ve read that before the enlightenment, the number of Jews who were openly mechallel Shabbos could probably be counted on the fingers. Before then, virtually all Jews kept Shabbos, kashrus, and believed in Torah min hashamayim and the coming of Mashiach, just to give a few examples. If that’s called being “charedi”, then it’s not new at all.
I assume the rabbi giving this speech wears a yarmulke. What was his point?
I once heard that if someone is called Harav Hagaon, all it tells you is that he’s male.
I think Lilmod made an excellent point- shouldn’t the purpose of Jewish music be to inspire people and give them his’orerus? If the words and the tune work together to accomplish that, then great. But if one or the other doesn’t inspire people, but is just the Jewish equivalent of a goyish dance beat, then what type of chutzpah is it to take words from Torah sources and exploit them to that end?
Obviously, each person has different sensitivities, but I think most people can tell if a song was meant to be me’orer people or not.
I think you mean 1 amah. According to the gemara the average person is about 3 amos tall, which comes out to between under 5 feet and 5 feet 8 inches. Chazal say that Par’oh was only 1 amah tall, which is between 19 and 23 inches!
None of the accepted Rishonim ever said anywhere that Hashem is a physical being. Even the Raavad, according to most interpretations, only means that a person who mistakenly holds such a belief can”t be considered a min, since he’s basing himself on a literal interpretation of the pesukim.
My wife knows I sometimes post here. It took a while for her to cajole me into telling her my username. But I don’t post anything she would find objectionable or that doesn’t reflect my real opinions (even if I don’t always express them as openly outside of the CR).
I’m not sure that ?? ?? ??? ????? is really grammatically correct, but in any case what is the idea conveyed in that line of Tefillah? According to the Sefardim, it is that Hashem hears the tefillos of all people, and according to Nusach Ashkenaz, that Hashem hears the tefillos of Klal Yisrael. But what’s added by saying that He hears the prayers of “every mouth of His nation Yisrael”?
As far as Kegavna, it is a highly esoteric section of Zohar. I doubt 1% of those who say it really have any idea of what they’re saying. So the fact the Ashkenazim never adopted it is not at all surprising. Compare it to Berich Shemeih, which is also a section from Zohar, but has made it into almost all Ashkenaz siddurim in the past 300 years, perhaps because its simple meaning is easily understood.
147- The reason the Ashkenazim say Bameh Madlikin and not Kegavna before Maariv on Shabbos is not to intentionally ignore Kabbalistic minhagim, but because saying Bameh Madlikin dates back to the time of the Geonim, while Kegavna only entered the siddurim some time after the Arizal. The Ashkenazim never adopted it. The real question is why, when Nusach Sefard started saying Kegavna, did they stop saying Bameh Madlikin?
Neville- The worst is ????? ????? ????? ??? ???????? ???? ???????? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ???????. Other places where the nusach can’t make up its mind whether to say the Ashkenazi or Sefardi version are ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? ??? ????? ?????? and ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?????.
The reason for the different nuschaos among Klal Yisrael seems to be simply different versions of the exact words of the tefillah that developed in different countries. If you look in sefarim on tefillah and halacha from the time of the Rishonim, you’ll see that there was never a unified nusach of tefillah (the differences between earlier nuschaos are much greater than the differences between modern-day nuschaos).
The Arizal said that there are 12 she’arim of tefillah corresponding to the 12 shevatim, and each person should daven the nusach of his shevet. He added that there is a 13th sha’ar which is for one who doesn’t know which shevet he’s descended from. The Ba’al Hatanya wrote a siddur in an attempt to identify this 13th sha’ar. That nusach is the so-called “Nusach Ari” davened by Chabad Chassidim to this day.The Arizal himself was an Ashkenazi, and at least on Yamim Nora’im davened with the Ashkenazim.
There seems to be no evidence that the Baal Shem Tov davened anything other than Nusach Ashkenaz, but his talmidim tried to daven according to the Arizal’s kabblistic kavvanos, many of which he (or R’ Chaim Vital) explained according to the nusach of the Sefardim. A cursory look at a few “Nusach Sefard” siddurim shows that no two are the same, but in general they all seem to combine the Ashenazi and the Sefardi nuschaos (sometimes creating absurd phrasing).
The chassidim met with a lot of opposition for changing from their ancestors’ nusach, and many of them defended it on various different grounds. Many teshuvos have been written from in the last 200 years on the topic. But I don’t think anyone is going to change their nusach based on anyone’s arguments either way.
This thread is full of inaccurate and false statements. The Anshei Knesses Hagedolah were mesaken our tefillah more than 2000 years ago. We have no idea what the exact words of their nusach were, since Chazal actually forbade tefillos to be written down. (See Shabbos 115b “????? ????? ?????? ????”). They were only written later (I believe first by R’ Amram Gaon) because of ?? ????? ??’.
In any case, it seems that it doesn’t halachically matter so much. As long as one says the parts of tefillah that Chazal instituted and doesn’t say anything objectionable or false, he is yotzei tefillah. For example, the fourth bracha of Shmoneh Esreh is a request for knowledge. Therefore, it doesn’t matter whether one says ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? or ???? ???? ????. Neither would be considered ???? ????? ????? ?????.
If Chazal had established a specific nusach for tefilla that we were halachically bound to follow, mishnayos such as ????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ?????, ??? ??? ????? ???,??????????, ?????? ???? (Brachos 5:3). Since such phrase were clearly not instituted by Chazal, it would be obvious that it is asur to say them. Similarly, the gemara in Brachos 33b teel sof a certain chazzan who began chazaras hashatz “??-? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????”. Rabbi Chanina waited until he finished Shmoneh Esreh, then took issue with him for saying so many praises of Hashem, as if those he said were all there was to say. However, if he had added other words of his own that weren’t inappropriate, R’ Chanina would not have been bothered to hear a nusach he had never heard before in his life. See also on 34a that R’ Eliezer had no problem with chazzanim adding and subtracting from Shmoneh Esreh at will, as long as they said the substantial parts of tefillah.
In short, all nuschaos of tefillah that have developped, Ashkenaz, Sefard, Moroccan, Yemenite, etc., are kosher. The question is only whether one has a right to change from the nusach that his ancestors davened.October 10, 2016 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm in reply to: Now that Trump has been revealed…hope your NOT voting for him #1187268
I can understand frum Jews who will vote for Trump because they believe he’s better than Hillary, but how can any decent frum person like him?!
Since I try not to bash any rabbanim, whether or not I hold of their shittos, I generally call him R’ Yoshe Ber. I think that name is pretty unambiguous; if I was referring to his cousin from Eretz Yisrael I would say R’ Berel.
It’s actually in Taanis 20b, but it’s a misquotation. The gemara says, ??? ?? ???? ????,??? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ?????.
Davening should not be too fast to allow pronouncing every word at a pace one would use in normal conversation. Would anyone disagree with that?
Hebrew and Aramaic do not resemble English.
To use some Aramaic- Peshita!?
Popa: It depends when b’sofah is. If it’s only after they’re married, that would be better. Although, if they’re k’oyvim now, it might prevent the chasunah from actually taking place.
Also, I don’t think there’s any shittah that Islam is avodah zarah. The Rambam, R’ Saadya Ga’on, and all Arabic-speaking Rishonim all refer to Hashem by the name A-lah.
Sam2: Since the original topic was the tefillah of a goy, I don’t think chukkos hagoyim is an issue. I’m pretty sure goyim have no such issur.
Popa is not serious.
Anyone can speculate on the reason for the minhag not to wear a tallis before marriage. However, I believe the Maharil mentions the difference of minhagim between b’nei Reinus (the Rhineland)for unmarried men to wear a tallis and of b’nei Ostreich (I’m not sure this is identical to modern-day Austria, but literally Ostreich means the “Eastern Country”) not to wear one until marriage. Apparently, the German Jews follow the minhag of b’nei Reinus and the Eastern Europeans go like the b’nei Ostreich.
The nusach found in the vast majority of modern-day Ashkenaz and Sefard siddurim is v’lamalshinim. (I don’t know about the nusach of the Sefardim.) It seems that the original, pre-censor nusach was v’lam’shumadim. Check the Siddur Vilna, Siddur Eizor Eliyahu, and R’Hamburger’s Yekkish siddur.
I know I’m bringing up an old thread here, but I challenge anyone to find a mekor for this legend that dates back to within a century or so of R’ Meir bar Yitzchak. There are so many strange stories out there involving kishuf-practicing evil priests or other features that are hard to believe and often not historically accurate. If they have a reliable source, that’s one thing, but the fact that the ma’aseh exists in a sefer means absolutely nothing. As was said, I think by the Rambam, if a person wants to lie, they can lie just as well in writing.
Look at it from the ani’s point of view. If he’s addicted to smoking, he’s not going to stop just because he needs to go around collecting tzedaka. He could have made sure not to spend any of his own money on cigarettes and get them by begging, but he can’t do that since we’ve agreed it would be asur to give him cigarettes. Klal Yisrael are rachmanim b’nei rachmanim- give the poor guy money for his family.