Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
” He didn’t wear one when he was sworn in at the Capitol “
Neither did Eisenhower
” He didn’t wear one when he was sworn in at the Capitol “
Neither did Eisenhower
“John F Kennedy went hatless at his 1961 inauguration”
While the giSt of your post is true,
Kennedy did in fact wear a hat at his inauguration. There are plenty of pictures available
Health
Got it. Because trump is to busy to comment on a terrorist act that isn’t terrorism.
What with all his important comments regarding snl and the terrible events in sweden tthe night before his nuremberg rally. who has time for a few dead people that aren’t white
Joseph
I am fairly certain none of them wear jackets.
You are making a circular argument.
They wear their garb because that is the accepted style in their circles. Not because it is inherently bekavadik.
The best example is a hat. When agudah “askanim” Meet political figures they usually do not bring their hats along (though rabbonim might). When meeting a president I wouldn’t wear a hat nor half a jacket. And I would wear a tie.
When davening we use a different benchmark. The garb for davening is completely different than meeting a president in spite of what you say in your op.
The accepted style among beneI yeshiva during shacharis is hat (unless married) half a jacket and no suit or tie.
This is very different than in the oval office.
Thus Your initial argument that all should dress this way since that’s how would dressay when meeting a president makes absolutely no sense.
Health
“Well I didn’t know Quebec was part of the United States!”
It isnt, but it is “abroad”
Remember when you said “Your idol Obama, couldn’t handle all the terrorism that occurred here and abroad”? (it wasnt that long ago, see here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/if-im-not-antisemitic#post-647794)
“What do you mean? Don’t you idolize all liberals?!?”
nope, just becasue you take you drink all that is fed to you by Rush Limbaugh doenst mean all people are that way. Most people can think for themselves, and while I agree with Obama on many things, that doesnt mean I agree with him on all things, and it certainly doesnt mean I idolize him
Joseph
the thread was discussing shacharis and most of the discussion further limited it to Shacharis during the week ie with tefilin.
In that situation I do not think wearing half a jacket is more bekavadik than no jacket. Neither in front of a President/King (like you started) nor in front of the Ribono shel Olam lehavdil.
Health
If a president cant handle an easy question like that, it is doubtful that he can handle terrorism. Unless of course by handle you mean ignore as he did after the shooting in a mosque in Quebec.
As for Obama, why is he my idol? did the supreme court tell you that?
“Why does it matter to Trump if he is popular with Americans now?”
that is the only thing that matters to him. What drives him in life is “winning” and being on top. This is why he brings up his Greatest Electoral college victory” (IT wasn’t the greatest but fcts dont matter to him). It drives him bananas that he lost the popular vote
“What’s the point of having a pep rally when he’s already been elected?”
Se above. Money doesnt drive him, it is just a way to keep score (as he wrote in one of his books). she once asked him if he would want to be appointed PResident, he replied that running/campaigning was the main point
“How does that change anything?”
See above
“Is he focused on winning in four years now?”
Not necessarily
“Does this do anything for the country besides make him feel better about himself and/or convince people that he is right?”
It only does the former, nobody will become convinced that he is right
“By asking an out of place, poorly phrased, insulting question,”
It was not out of place nor insulting (it was however poorly worded)
the press conference covered many topics Trump with his rambling nonsensical responses (more than usual) expanded it to cover many more (including his electoral victory, war with russia, nuclear holocaust)
Trump asked for an esy question and he got one:
what do you think of the rise of antisemitism?
I oppose it. there easy done
but of course Trump cant handle that.
“ubiq – Do you wear a jacket to shul for Mincha/Maariv?”
Yep. But that isnt what the op discussed
“You should dress for the RBS”O three times a day the same way you’d dress for the RBS”O if you were meeting Him for a once-in-a-lifetime one-on-one meeting He called you to (during your lifetime), where you’d be having a back and forth conversation with Him on how you should teach Torah to Klal Yisroel.”
got it Shkoyach! I love when we agree.
so i’ll leave my jacket at home
Joseph
Your 2 paragraphs disagree with each other.
If I had a once in a lifetime meeting I would wear a suit and tie. No hat, no gartel, no tallies and no tefilin.
(If the president said I’d like you to wear tefilin I wouldn’t wear half a jacket)
Your second paragraph makes sense. We dress by convention. In the yeshiva community this is no tie (generally) a jacket and hat (often brim up).
Among those where this isn’t the standard there’s no reason to dress that way
Dy
Because it isn’t true.
Unless you are arguing for a suit and tie.
And if I went to the oval office in tefilin I wouldn’t wear half a jacket.
DY
Of course one shoudl dress with some degree of respect (I’m sorr yif I implied otherwise)
My point was using the emotional argument of “One wouldn’t come to a formal invitation to visit the Oval Office”
Is childish and wrong. since the reality is if I went to the oval office 3 times daily I would most definitely not wear a jacket. (That doesnt mean I would necessarily wear pajamas or even shorts)
Furthermore, the mechaber you cite does not say one should dress as if in front of a king (unless I am misunderstanding), if he did it would mean no hat today and suits and ties not just a jacket.
I dont understand the Oval office comparison.
IT works for children, but for grownups it falls flat.
1) If I went to the oval office I wouldnt wear a tallis and teffilin
2) IF I was there 3 times daily for as long as I can remember and for as long as I have left on this planet.
You can bet I wouldnt wear a jacket
3) In a formal setting (assuming it wasnt 3 times daily) I would wear a tie and suit not a jacket
If you believe wearing a jacket is appropriate when standing in front of the Ribbono shel olam, then wear it. But not because of what you would wear in the oval office
Thanks DY
He quotes “mechilitin” is that generic name for medrash? or does he mean the mechilta (which we have)
“reminds you af anyone around here?”
Yes Lots. But I have encountered sources for things I hadnt previously known, which makes sticking around well worthwhile.
“As for Bnei Yisrael’s distinction (or lack of it) in Mitzrayim,”
Lol nowhere did I argue for assimilation. There is a huge gulf between completely seperatign ourselves, to assimilation. Neither of which do I believe anyone here argues for.
“If your proof that the Yidden in Mitzrayim engaged in secular culture..”
Lol, though I didint mean to offer it as proof.
Uber oib di vilst ken men fin yetzt oon redden nur in yidish
golfer
oooh ooh pick me!
“Can someone please state the exact number of years since Yetzias Mitzrayim?”
I cant as it is a machlokes. But lets say approximately 3323
“And can someone (could be the same person) please list the 3 things we didn’t change back there in Egypt?”
Hmmm Vayikrah Rabba 32:5 has Name and Language
Lekach Tov, Devarim 26:5 has Name, food and dress
There are other reasons given in other mdirashim
I assume you mean shem lashon and malbish though interestingly no such medrash exists.
“Bnei Yisrael kept away from secular influences in ancient times.”
I can draw the opposite conclusion too. they were emeshed in secular culture having descended to 49th level of Tumah but becasue they maintained something they were redeemed.
“Yotz’ei Mitzrayim, as evidenced by the shtreimel-clad men in the pictures our little ones bring home from Yeshiva, were chareidim.”
yep that is what I was taught growing up, and many who claim charedi Jews never changed seem to imply
Litvos
I did not mean to disuade you. I agree with the others that Hebrew easier than English.
Golfer
I peeked in a smaller dikduk book I have at home. It has 91 tables to conjugate binyan Kal alone.
Many of those exceptions are due to reasons you identify. But to make a rule that encompasses all 91 (and I have a bigger book with more) would be quite a complicated rule.
Of course, as mentioned I cant prove that there isnt a reason for the examples that dont have a reason as to why they are exceptions, but I fail to see how the existence of an unknown reason for an exception makes learning that exception any easier.
Finaly there is the classic story said to involve Rashi where he is said to have written:
.???? ???? ???? ???? ????
WTP
“Back to the OP- if by chareidi the person meant a strong adherence to halacha, keeping mitzvos without compromise, emphasis on learning Torah and emunas chachamim, then those things have always defined frum people from Sinai and had nothing to do with the haskala.”
With the possible exception of Emunas chachamaim, which depending on what exactly you mean may be a new innovation (and one that defines Charedisim at that). The rest holds true for most of Orthodox Jewry and doesnt serve to define charedisim at all.
OTOH,
” isolationism, type of dress, keeping out secular influences, whether in education or other forms, then he may be correct.”
These are things that ARE unique to charedisim, and as you CORRECTLY note they “did develop as a response to changing times”
Avi
1) I didint mean to imply that. I was explaining the existing change that began over the past century. (Im sorry if that wasnt clear)
2) I did not imply it should start now I am explaining the existing mentality (I’m not even sure how you made this inference, did you think I was suggesting starting a brand new kollel movement that doesn’t currently exist?)
3) Do you have a source for the Chazon Ish limiting to 2 generations (Ive seen it said, and probably quoted it myself but cant recall a source at the moment.)
“That really wouldn’t help someone learning to speak English, unless he already knows German.”
what?
“I agree with you Golfer that Hebrew is much easier to learn than english is.”
Yep I said that too
“If you think there are rules broken in Hebrew without explanation, it’s because you can’t figure out the reason, not because there isn’t one.”
Ok fair enough, I’m not sure that is correct but it is a contention that cant be proven/disproven.
The bottom line is dikduk, has plenty of exceptions even if those exceptions have reasons. I’ll grant that there are less exceptions than in English Though I can counter that those exceptions also have reasons for example I believe the past tense of bring is brought since it is of germanic origin past tense being bracht or someting like that which in Engligh became brought much like nacht became night.
Avi
I dont follow
“the CI obviously made that statement over sixty years ago.”
OK
” Therefore, by stating it as a need for now”
I never stated that
” you are sixty years behind the times.”
How? If he made the statment > 60 years ago and was to last 2 generations. Assuming a generation is 25 years wouldnt I (if I made the statment) be 10 years or so behind the times?
“Once you learn to read, you can read.”
Th prblm is in hbrw th vwls ar oftn lft ot whch whl nt impssbl t rd cn crtnly b chlngng.
“And the grammar – known as “dikduk” – has no exceptions to the rule.”
Seriously?
Avi K
“Ubiquitin, the Chazon Ish died at the beginning 5714. That is definitely two generations.”
Ah, but you said “you are over sixty years behind the times.”
LU
“My point is that an aversion to secular studies is not one of the “defining characteristics of chareidi Jewry today.””
I got your point. however you are wrong. And as you demonstrated on the previous post on the subject, your definition of “Charedi” isnt quite right
“Someone can be very into secular learning and consider himself Chareidi and be part of the Chareidi world and no one would say, “He’s not Chareidi because he is into secular learning”.”
Lol! (Have you been following Israeli news over the past few years?)
Joseph, care to weigh in: In your opinion, Can someone Charedi be into secular learning?
” I went to Chareidi schools and lived in Chareidi communities, and I was always taught to value secular education,”
was this in America or in Israel?
I too went to (American) chardei schools and was taught secular studies are assur and a waste of time other than what was required by t the government
“Not recently, and I may not have read the same ones that you read. I think he has several.”
Yup there are several. He was particularly opposed to combining yeshiva + college. However even just college he opposed see See chelek aleph siman 76
“It certainly wasn’t the only reason he was against Michlalah.”
yup that is true.
LU See Joseph’s quote above. It is a perfect example of Charedim rewriting their history so to avoid the very real conclusion that charedism (like other movements) change.
I will spare you any of several academic sources on the subject since I suspect you will dismiss them as having agendasd (correct me if I’m wrong)
However see The artscroll book on the subject “My Uncle the NEtziv pages 206-208. surely they cant be accused of being “Academic” R”l
.
LU
“He wasn’t against Michlalah because of the secular studies.”
Have you read it? I’ll be happy to provide quotes later.
“That’s not completely true. The boys … ”
Fair enough, I was referring primarily to boys but (Michlala was but one example)
“Also, it is not SO different in EY than in the US. In the US, the more Yeshivish Yeshivas”
This is a very new development. And strngthens my point, as it is further change that we can see unfolding in charedi orthodoxy as we speak.
“Not sure what you mean by that. My whole point was that these types of things do not define Chareidiism any more than whether one drives a car or rides a horse to get to Shul.”
what I meant was that you were right in identifying a change in charedi Judaism (kudos to you, many will insist it was always this way)
where you then go wrong in is downplaying the significance of the change. An aversion to secular studies is one of the defining practical characteristics of charedi Jewry today. IT is not something that always existed.
LU
“Apparently, they were Frum or he wouldn’t have bothered finding a limud zechus for them, and he wouldn’t have been able to find one either.”
I’m sorry I don’t follow. IF you are not familiar with the example, just ask I can elaborate.
do you have another definition of frum? IF a person doesnt follow halacha whether he drinks stam yaynam or intermarries then he isnt frum. OF course that doesnt mean we just write them off nor does it mean we should tell them they dont have to keep any other halacha. Especial yif they are
omer mutar” and otherwise not chashud.
The Remah I refer to is Teshuvas Hremah 124 where while finding a limud zechus for the community in question, refers to those who drink stam yaynam as “ovrei aveira” and is concerned by publicizing his teshuva othwer “ovrei averia” will follow this community
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1204&st=&pgnum=182
avi K
I dont think you are arguing with anything Ive said.
However, in regards to: ” you are over sixty years behind the times. The Chazon Ish said that universal life-long learning was a necessity for two generations”
How long would you say a generation is?
and how long ago did the Chazon Ish live?
lightbrite
The Rabbi is 100% correct.
This has been discussed multiple times in the past on this forum.
I dotn think I’m contributing much that hasnt been said before.
“If you looked at an Ashkenazi Ben Torah from 250 years ago (i.e. pre-haskahah), it would look amazingly like a modern day hareidi.”
This is demonstrably false. for example: Most Ashkenazi Benei torah 250 years ago worked.
” It is the secularized Jews who changed.”
This is true
LU
you kind of hit the nail on the head, but then dont follow through.
“For example, in EY today, the Chareidi world tends to be more hesitant than the Chareidi world in the US is about having secular studies.”
that is an understatement. The charedi world in EY has been militantly (at times literally) opposed to secular studies. Read Rav Shach’s Michtavim Umamarim (for example regarding Michlala) OR priro to that when R’ Hildesheimer wanted to oppen arabbinicla seminary.
” This is probably due at least in part to concern about secular-zionist influence.”
Exactly right! In repsonse to an outside threat a new dogma was written into Torah-True-Judasim TM. In the US it is a little less extreme in that sense there is some allowance for a degree.
But ask yoru average Charedi, if Somebody goes to a secular college can he be considered a Torah-True Jew?
This doent make it wrong. Based on new realities (eis laasos) things change. Kollel is now necessary to ensure a steady supply of benei Torah. College is assur (with few exceptions depending on circumstances) because of changes (that you identified) that have taken place.
“I’ve read that before the enlightenment, the number of Jews who were openly mechallel Shabbos could probably be counted on the fingers. Before then, virtually all Jews kept Shabbos, kashrus,”
youve read wrong. Open up any sefer you will find many refrences to Yidden Not performing mitzvos properly or at all. I can provide dozens of examples if needed but the to that pop to my mind are the Remah finding limud zechus for yayin nesech which yidden werent practicing. 1000’s of years before that Ezra criticizing intermarriage
1) Do people really ask halachic shelios here and expect to get a proper halachic ruling? Do they really care about halacha then?
Of course. Most people know what questions need a Rav and what doesnt. Their are questions abovwe your Rav’s paygrade too for which he goes to his Rav.
for example. IF I forgot what beracha to make on an apple does anybody really believe I cant ask in the coffee room and need to ask a Rav?
Peopel give an answer, often sourced if it makes sense I may follow it if not, it is still interesting to bounce ideas off each other. Not every halachik questions needs the Gadol Hador’s pesak
2) Do you feel upset that the CR is made a mockery of IRL from time to time? (In Real Life)
Lol The coffee room is hilarious! I love solving all the worlds problems in my pajamas. OF course it is made a mockery
” I don’t have time to tell you which thread it was,”
how long could it take?
Geordie
Thank you for sharing
I hope you dont misunderstand. IT is a nice sentiment and the Anti-semitism of the regimes in question should be called out.
I just dont understand how that is relevant when it comes to saving refugees in question?
Geordie
I still dont follow
“we are not talking about the most democratic countries in the world.”
all the more reason to let refugees from those countires in!
I get the concerns regarding terrorism. But this idea that because thsoe countries dont allow Israelis in or are undemocratic therefore we shouldnt let in refugees just doesnt make sense to me.
And boris johnson making this point doesnt make it make any more sense.
Geordie
“Consider this: How many of those countries admit Israeli Passport holders? The answer is 0. How many people have protested that fact?”
Ive seen a couple of people make that comment. I dont understand it. Are yo urealy using the “Well they did it first” defense. Especially when the “They” is Iran/Iraq etc?
Joseph
Would you support taking in refugee children?
Saw this going around:
First they came for the muslims, and we said not this time!
“No one ever alleged or seriously entertained the thought that admitting Jews to America before either WWI or WWII would pose a risk to the lives of Americans.”
Youve made this false claim before. IT was certainly alleged ( see quote by M above there are many many others.
In fact A NAzi spy DID try to infiltrate as a Jew
google: Herbert Karl Friedrich Bahr
Of course many Jews were Communists too.
ShloimeB
“The biggest issue was that he did not get proper permission from his subjects”
no that is the smallest issue.
The biggest issue was that Wakefield falsified facts
Other big issues were flaws in the study design, which only had an n of 12 and the design was uncontrolled.
More minor issues are the one you mentioned and the fact that he had financial interests that he failed to disclose
“Nobody that leans in the direction of studying vaccine risks gets funding. “
You dont know what you are talking about. You start with a null hypothesis ie no link between vaccine and autism and then you determine if the data supoorts or rejects the nulll hypothesis. Im not sure where the “leaning of the researcher” comes into play. Even Wakefeild didint claim go looking for a risk. If a legitimate study comes along proving vaccines are harmful journals would fight over it. However over and over studies show the same thing. It is amazing they still get published.
” What are your qualifications? “
I read English, see “The fraud behind the MMR scare” published in BMJ
what are yours?
“have you taken any advanced, post college level courses in any related field?”
yes
“It could be nothing but it needs study.”
and it has been studied over and over and over
see here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/things-causing-autism-jokes#post-561919
“I can’t guaranty much in life but if anybody really read up on this and Wakefields research they would be left with questions”
questions are good! as k away. But sometimes answers are good too.
“I can tell you that the establishment is set up so that anybody that wants to do research in this direction never gets funding.”
Hogwash. Have you ever heard of Wakefield? (I believe you have) his study was published in one of the most prestigious journals. Of course the study, like the man himself, turned out to be fraudulent.
your earlier thread has a few errors as well:
“While many say that the vaccine has been proven safe it would be more acurate to state that there is no clear connection between autism and the vaccine and some studies show little correlation. There is no absolute proof that there is no connection.”
Should read:
“While many say that the vaccine has been proven safe it would be more acurate to state that there is no established connection between autism and the vaccine and all studies show no correlation (except one study exposed as a fraud). There is no absolute proof that there is no connection.”
Health is right
It is befeirish in the passuk in last week’s parsha:
“Vayomar lerasha, lama sakeh as reichah” followed by “vayaneh harasha mishum seyesh lo i phone”
“But hindsight is always 20/20.”
In this case it was foresight that was 20/20
“Sorry LB but I don’t find your last comment amusing. to even hint that yeshiva bachurim will steal food……”
Lol! and I though iacarsima’s comment was sarcastic, since yeshiva bachurim taking food is a well known age old problem (not from private people, but being moreh heter on taking food from the yeshiva’s kitchen)
there is a reason Yeshiva pantrys are kept locked, and it isnt a concern of bears
LU
No I am saying that the opening statment “Then they want to throw him to the dogs for doing what they sent him to do in the first place” isnt true
As an a side arguably the stae of ISrael does have a right to make and enforce laws that are againt “normative halacha”. Much like a melech does this is especially true when it comes to an army where even many who dont recognize the medina as having a din “malchus” allow for some leeway for national defense.
See Hilchos medina volumes 1-3
LU
“And therefore, if he did in fact act according to halacha (which he may have), he should not be found guilty. Period.”
I disagree. but that is only tangentially related to my comment
Geordie
“unless you believe al jazeera or the NYT”
Or the millitary judges whop examined all the evidence…
LU
“the laws do not always follow Halacha.”
they rarely do. And when they do it is accidental.
LU
“Part of protecting Am Yisrael is killing terrorists.”
Im not sure what you mean. He could be the biggest tzadik ever. The IDF operates with rules of engagment. According to those rules once a terrorist is neutralized killing him isnt justified.
Geodie
“NO, He shot a terrorist who was injured and alive, and suspected of having a suicide vest.”
Im not sure if that was directed to me. But that is not what he was found guilty of doing. (though it is possible that is what he did)
“Then they want to throw him to the dogs for doing what they sent him to do in the first place”
I thought he was found guilty of shooting an unarmed injured terrorist?
Is that what he was sent to do?
iacisrmma
the beir heitev on the seif you supplied tells you what the Rema means
“Like a finger width”
whether they were hard or soft is a sepperate (albeit related) issue but they were not thin like our matzos.
Of course things have changed and many charedim today are in fact makpid on thin hard matzos … (see what I did)
LU
“Are you sure that Chassidim deny that? I never discussed it with a Chassid, but I would find it hard to believe. I brought that as an example because I assumed it was something that everyone agreed to.”
I am certain they deny it. (Obviosuly not all but generally speaking) Speak to a chassid ou will be told how the zohar was written prior to Sheishes yemei Beresshis but was only written by Rashbi and ten put into practice by the ARIZAL and the Besh”t but on some deeper levels all the Taanamim and Amoraim were secretly Chassidim.
(Full disclosure: This is what I was taught in cheider)
“Saying something is a change doesn’t necessarily make it wrong.”
Of course not, then all forms of Judaism would be wrong, since as Ive been trying to explain to you they all involve change.
“I think that the Dati-Leumi would agree that the Dati-Leumi movement was a new movement even though they think it’s correct.”
new because the circumstances are new, but We are what traditional judaim would look like if faced with an opportunity to form our own country.
“Can we all find something we agree on? I hate arguing. Thank you”
then whats the point of this forum? But ok Pizza is delicious. Maskim?
LU
” Chassidism was such a change whether or not you support it.”
Again, chassidim deny this. I deny that religious zionism was a change. You deny Daas Torah was a change. that is my point