Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
MW13
“If the only one who are responsible for an attack are those who actually perpetrate it (which is what I believe you said earlier), no body else can be at all responsible. Why does the ethical nature of an action change this black and white equation?”
the inciter is not responsible for the attack. He is not tried as a murderer not in olam hazeh nor in olam hames. He is responsible for inciting the attack.
“No. Even if this action did play a role in causing an attack to happen, since that action was entirely justified self-defense, they are not responsible for any negative consequences.”
whole heartedly agree! And to me it sounds pathetic and desperate when terrosits (including Abbas) use it to “justify” further attacks.
Bottom line is as you said ” Even if this action did play a role in causing an attack to happen, since that action was entirely justified…, they are not responsible for any negative consequences.”
This is the case for “inciting attacks” by shooting terrorists, walking on har habayis, drawing cartoons or being Jewish. Since all of these are entirely justified (even if they did lead to an increase in attacks) there is ZERO blame to be had by those commiting the justified acts.
“However, the truth is that I disagree with your premise; I don’t believe that the shooting of the terrorists is a contributing factor in the current round of terrorism.”
I provided quotes to that affect earlier
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/har-habayis-revisited/page/4#post-583884
“Putting aside the halachic prohibition, do you think that it is a good idea for Jews to ascend HHB? Should these actions be encouraged or discouraged?”
Its hard for me to put aside the halachic prohibition against ruba deruba of gedolim but I’d have to say encouraged. (though I am neutral about it).
“If somebody runs into traffic and gets killed, is he responsible for his own death?”
a better moshol wold be, then the motorist then is so enraged at the dent caused in his car by this guy who ran in front of him so he starts stabbing people who look like the guy. Is the jaywalker responsible for all their deaths? (even in an imaginary world where the driver doesnt kill people on other days)
mw13
yes because inciting and encouraging attacks is wrong
(this was covered earlier)
incidently I dont think you replied to my question to you: when the shooting of “innocent” palestinian stabbers is used to incite terrorism, does that make the police responsible?
DY
I think what Avi Gordon is trying to tease out, and what I think is clouding your judgement is trying to remove the issur from the equation.
I for one dont fully get those who ascend, most Poskim including many zionist ones forbid going. Why mess with a possible kares?
I think you cant move past that (admittedly large) hurdles, and thus you view ascending har habayis as something “wrong”. You are having trouble seperating the issur of ascending from the conversation.
Consider another example say the kosel was being used as the excuse, should we stop going? ASH above claimed he would stop going to kever rachel if it was used as an excuse. Sadly he may no longer go in keeping with kol hayotzeh mepicho (arguably). Do you agree? Mearos hamachpela has been used as well, is it wrong to go?
In the 20’s and 30’s riots and deaths were blamed on benches at the kosel, mechitzahs, blowing the shofar etc. Were they to blame? (careful the they in that sentence includes the edah who protested the removal of the mechitzah)
DY
Or If only you could realise your “shita” is offensvie , blames the victims and is based on non-factual circular reasoning (it is wrong becasue it incites and it is considred incitemnet because it is wrong) we too could be in agreement
I’m sorry which question
if you meant this one
“Just curious, all those who say that since it’s the terrorists’ fault, there’s no culpability for incitement: do you hold the muslim clerics who get up in public, waving a knife screaming to kill the Jews, responsible, or are they entirely blameless if they do no actual stabbing? “
I did in fact answer it
“”No, blame is a wholly inappropriate term when someone does the correct thing.”
Inciting people to commit violence is wrong, thus they are to blame. Walking on har habyais is not wrong (again I’m not talking halachicly) so as you say “blame is a wholly inappropriate term when someone does the correct thing.””
If you mant another question, Id be more than happy to answer
DY
You are coming dangerously close to circular reasoning. It is incorrect becasue it incites, but if it is correct (like killing terrorists or practicing Judaism) the fact that it incites would be irrelevant yet it is incorrect BECAUSE it incites…
Ash
“If the Palestinians/Muslims would make as big a fuss of say Kever Rochel and turn it in a cause for incitements and death threats r”l, I would stop going there too”
I’m really sorry to break it to you, but they do! thats why a fortress was constructed around it!
DY
“BTW, I haven’t noticed you answer my question:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/har-habayis-revisited/page/4#post-583911″
sorry I missed it.
However you answered your question:
“No, blame is a wholly inappropriate term when someone does the correct thing.”
Inciting people to commit violence is wrong, thus they are to blame. Walking on har habyais is not wrong (again I’m not talking halachicly) so as you say “blame is a wholly inappropriate term when someone does the correct thing.”
ditto for all the example Ive cited rejecting oso hoish, dressing Jewish, killing terrorists, walking on har habayis. All of these are correct actions . Therefore anybody who uses it to justify or explain terror is wrong (I dont mean you I mean the media and the terroists)
DY
thanks for your patience i think i got it. (i still think you are wrong, and your view is offensive, but I think I get it)
though to be clear, the Charlie Hebdo people are to blame for their own deaths. correct?
and it wouold seem from the christian perspective that we are wrong for rejecting odso haish, we are to blame for our persecution. In other words my coworker who beleives in oso hoish and thinks we are wrong for rejecting him is right when she said we are to balme for our persecution. correct?
DY
Thanks though that seems like an arbitrary divide beacuse you are uncomfortable with the outcome of your position.
In cases where it isnt correct but was accidental (like Yosef lipshutz hitting Gavin Cato ultimatly resulting in Yankel Rosenbaum’s death) does that carry “blame” albeit accidental?
DY
again I dont quite follow are you saying that the soldiers and those who reject oso hoish are partly to blame for terror/persecution but their is no other option?
DY
Calling them ridiculous doesnt make them ridculous. Granted my Jospeh example was made up, but the quote form The Independent and the question from my coworker were both real.
I get that in both those cases (ie killing terroists and rejecting oso hoish) there is no othe roption. ut that is just dodging the issue.
namely in those cases is their blame to be had by the police or us.
The blame may be mtigated somewaht or even completly since thier is no other choice, fine. But do you beleive their is any blame at all to be had for rejecting oso hosih? If not why is it different han ascending har habayis?
You gave a vague answer
“Precisely. It’s about weighing the benefits vs. the risk/loss, and the same holds true for locking ourselves up or disguising ourselves.”
but I dont follow?
DY
“If someone knowingly does something which is likely to lead to harm to others, of course they take some blame and culpability when it happens.”
To what extent. For example as I asked earlier
“If I smack some guy named Joseph, because I feel Jospeh is obnoxious. Is he (at all) responsible for my smacking Joseph?
Even if I warn and say hey Joseph youre not nice If you make a snide comment again Im smacking my neighbor Jospeh Smith.” would Jospeh be bear blame or culpability for his namesake’s pain?
Or as a coworker once asked do you think that by rejecting oso hoish we incited violence against ourselves over the centuries bear some blame or culpability for our persecution?
mw13
I am only discussing responsibility and blame.
BTW
Regarding my comparing the “provokation” for ascending har habayis t the “provocation” of killing terorists (again not in my mind, bu tin the terrorist’s)
Here is a quote from The Independent describing the motives of one of the terrorists:
DY
“if there were double blind control studies demonstrating the increase in violence due to ascension to HH”B, would it be okay since the blame is anyhow solely on the terrorists?”
I do think so. But I can see two tzedadim. so that isnt what I was focusing this discussion on.
mw13
“Forget who is “responsible”. Can we agree that if the editors hadn’t published the cartoons, they would still be alive?”
Most probably. Unlike terrorism in ISrael simply becasue we are there, attacks on tabloids in France have not hapened in the past. But that makes my point stronger! They would most proabbly be alive if not for the cartoons. They still have zero blood on their hands. Cartoons as offfesive as they are do not justify terror. Walking on har habayis does not justify terror. Even if the only time there was ever violence in Eretz Yisorel was when people walked on har habayis. The terrosists and only the terroists are fully to blame.
“Translating this into our sugya, can we agree that there are people who have been killed that would still be alive if no Jews ascending HHB (again, regardless of who is actually “responsible” for those deaths)?”
I’m not sure, probably not
Though you lost me “regardless of who is actually “responsible””
What do you mean “regardless” Isnt that the exact point we are discussing? whether those who asscen har habayis are responsible (to whatever degree) to the current terror.
BTW I had a very naive coworker who honestly wanted to know why didnt just embrace oso hoish. she said by not accepting him obviously this would upset the church so of course they persecuted us what should we expect.
Now leaving aside the halachic aspect (as I have for har habayis) do you think she raises a good point, that by rejecting oso hoish we incited violence against ourselves over the centuries and are partly responsible or as DY put it “have blood on our hands”?
DY
thats interesting is do you mean their isnt an increase in mortality when kids play in traffic historically?
otherwise what shaychus?
BTW
I’d be remiss if I didnt mention another point that is being overlooked.
People are responsible for their own actions. Being “provoked” is not an excuse to stab random people. And it in no way shifts responsibility
even if walking on har habayis led to more violence (which historically it hasnt)The full responsibility for the deaths are by the perpetrators. Walking on har habyais isnt an excuse to kill people, neither is visiting the kosel neither is being Jewish.
And for those who seem to have trouble answering a simple question regarding Yankel Rosenbaum. The Full responsibility for his death lies with Lemrick Nelson. Not the driver who killed Gavin Cato, even IF he ran a red, nor with the hatzalah people even if they did neglect to treat Cato (they didnt but that rumor was spread)
To give some more exmples, since some people are having trouble with this. The Charlie Hebdo authors are not repsonsible for their own deaths. Zero Nada. They may not have been smart people or very nice ones for that matter. But “being provoked” is not an excuse.
I reall dont know why this is difficult. If I smack some guy named Joseph, because I feel Jospeh is obnoxious. Is he (at all) responsible for my smacking Joseph?
Even if I warn and say hey Joseph youre not nice If you make a snide comment again Im smacking my neighbor Jospeh Smith.
And keep in mind, I dont usually hit Jospeh smith, so the Arab terror example, which unfortunately has occurred in the past is even MORE removed from the “provocation”
mw13
“Listen, if you honestly believe that killing a terrorist can be compared to ascending HHB”
whoa hold up
I don’t in the slightest!
(fyoo no dead end, maybe someone will finnaly answer my simple question regarding Yankel Rosenbaum)
Do you not think there are arabs who view them the same?
Is that really a crazy question?
charedimodim
Number 1 can be proven with actual facts as I have repeatedly in many many posts.
Jews have ascended Har habyais without violence – fact
violence has occured without har habayis – fact
mw13
“… One such factor (although certainly not the only one) is if Jews provoke him/her….”
another such factor is the perceived injustice of how the Israelis treated the terrorist in Afula (that i mentioned above). Even if they were justified in our view and in reality.
If not why not?
mw13
Dont be disapointed. i’ll explain it to you. Though my postion is not based on logic it is strictly fact based.
There are two separate arguments going on tangentially.
1) Does Jews walking on har habayis incite more violence, thus making them responsible for it.
2) Does that make it wrong
(There is a third discussion regarding the halachic issue of walkign on har habyis, but i usualy avoid strictly halachic discussions on this forum because they usually turn into comparing R’ x to R’ Y)
some have argued that going on har habyis even if would lead to more violence is neccesary to show shlita over it or something to that affect. In other words they either concede or just dont discuss argument 1. I’m not sure I agree with that. The thrust of my argument was limited to argument 1.
Now according to your (and Joseph’s, DY’s argument) if I do an act X and you say oh you did X I’m going to do Y. Even if youve done Y multiple times without my X, even if you had planned to do Y anyway, even if I have done X multiple times without you doing Y. I am responsible for any outcomes of Y.
Again note: this doesnt automatically make X wrong.
Please correct me if I’ve misstated your position.
Following the above “logic”. If Soldiers shooting terrorists is used to incite more terror that makes them responsible. Granted it may be necessary and not wrong.
Please explain why soldiers killing terrorists doesnt make them responsible for more terror (again not why the action is justified)?
Also I asked earlier if in your view Yosef Lipshutz was responsible for the death of Yankel Rosenbaum (even inadvertently) is he?
DY
either that or how irrational and inconsistent your approach is…
Chareidi dont feel bad it doesnt make sense is not fact based.
Their is a video of a knife wielding terrorist getting shot that is being circulated to show how the Israelis shoot “innocent” women. I’m guessing in the view of DY, Joseph, Mw13 et al those who shoot terrorist are responsible for any further blood shed since this “provokes” them
mw13
“And we have explained ad nauseam, there is every reason to believe that it is.”
And AS I have explained to there isnt.
“Btw, I’m not sure why you don’t think the current spate of attacks isn’t “an uptick in violence that can be linked to har ahbayis”.”
I meant historically. THIS uptick in violence can be temporally linked to har habayis, historically given the years and years of arab terror there is no such trend.
“Moshol, li’mah ha’davar domeh – if a small spark causes a barrel of gas to explode, who caused the explosion, the gas or the spark?”
you are missing something from your moshol. If there are sparks that do not cause the barrel to explode, and the barrel often explodes without sparks. then one day the barrel explodes with a spark. It probably isnt the spark that caused it.
Furthermore, if somebody had the barrel wired to explode and just waited for a spark he can blame it on, when that spark in fact arrives and the barrel exlpodes it DEFINITELY cant be blamed on the spark
Ash
1. I dont follow. No a sbad as they are I dont think their actions cause violence. It does give them an oppurtunity to (falsely) label themselves as not anti-semitic since they have very Jewish appearing supporters
2. I dont excuse anything. All i know is that ascending Har habayis didnt start two weeks ago and nor did arab violence. and even if this uptick in arab violence can temporally be linked to media reports on har habayis this does not hold true historicaly.
3. Because if not for har hayis it would be the kosel if not the kosel tel aviv and if not tel aviv New york. Jews did not ascend har habayis during the (much worse) fedayeen attacks in the 50’s nor the highjackings during the 60’s-70’s
also feel free to answer my question posed to DY and Joseph
Was Darren Wilson responsible for the destruction of property in Ferguson?
add to that was Yosef Lifshutz responsible for the murder of Yankel Rosenbaum h”yd (even inadvertently)?
Another question for Joseph and DY
Was Darren Wilson responsible for the destruction of property in Ferguson?
Keep in mind that that violence unlike Arab violence would NOT have occurred if not for his actions (even if justified)
Joseph
“Why is it “best not to even give them an excuse”?”
This thing is being fanned on social media. They glorify violence, unfortunately stabbings lead to more stabbings, unfortunalty killing stabbers alos can be fanned to ile up the masses (let me guess in your twisted view, this means that those who kill terrorsits are also responsible for deaths of other Jews. Am I right bout that?)
In order to break the cycle, it is best not to give them any pretense if possible.
Do you think the ban will remain in place forever?
If not. Why would it be lifted? Does Netanyahu want the Jews killed?
“you cannot argue that the specific Jews who were murdered directly in response to the timing of the ascension to HH”B or directly in response to the timing of Grynspan’s murdering of a German diplomat, that those same specific Jews would have been murdered anyways if not for those actions by Jews”
that is EXACTLY what I am arguing!
Certainly you cant argue that when violence occurs without har habayis, and people ascend har habayis without violence. and then when violence occurs in the setting of har habayis If not for har habayis the violence would not have occured.
“will this likely lead to more Jews dying.”
No.
Kristalnacht wouldve hppned if Hershel Grynspan was never born, and Arab terrorism existed when Jews never went on Har habayis.
As for Netanyahu you have to ask him. My guess is at this time it is best not to even give them an excuse, not that it leads to more violence.
Ask yourself this iyh when things quit down hopefully real soon. Will Netanyahu keep the ban in place? Why not, does he want to see more Jews killed?
DY
at what point does “a cause” become meaningless, in other words when the other “causes” are any Jewish presence in any of Eretz Yisroel, and for many of them the “cause” is any Jewish presence on the planet? Especilay considering when it cant even be argued that it is a maor casue, being that there was violence without har habayis (oftne even more violence), and there were people going to har habayis without violence?
If they said the cause was davening at the kosel would that become a cause? If they said it was your using the internet would that become a cause?
DY
you fail to explain WHy it is flawed. Granted you said repeatedly that just because there is also violence when har habayis is not involved does not mean that har habayis isnt the cause. Nowehere (that I found) do you explain WHY this is so.
Also see question regarding Hershcehl Grynspan and kristalnacht
DY (and anybody else)
Allow me to try another approach. (see I never ignore your “rebuttals” in fact I try new arguments to get through to you)
Did Hershel Grynszpan cause kristalnacht?
Note: I am not asking if it was a good idea for him to “smack the thug” but only do you beleive he was responsible for kristalnacht?
apolagies DY.
I was arguing a different albeit related point. Namely if smacking a thug who routinely kills poeple wether they smack him or not can be considered to have incited his killing when smacked.
i’m not saying it is a good idea to smack him.
And i have never ever ignored your rebuttals. not once (unless accidentally missed a response in fact Ive even conceded when you made a valid point, iyh by you) You on the other hand claim to have address my points by repeating yourself after I rebut them. when I ask for clarification you ignore or repeat yourself. for example I raised cases of arab violence (greater than the current stream) that can in no way be attributed to har habyais. My point being that it is disengenioues to blame arab violence in har habayis when it existed to an equal and at times greater extent with no har habayis. you claime youve addressed this point. I cant find where. Granted, you repeat over and over that violence when unprovoked does not show that the har habayis provokes violence. You fail to explain why this is so.
DY
It isnt safe to walk past the thug either
If Reuvein walks by the thug and gets killed, Shimon walks by and gets killed. LEvi doesnt get killed, Yehuda does, Yissachor smacks him and gets killed.
I think its hard to argue Yissachar got killed becasue he smacked the thug
mw13
“Source?”
The mitchell report which was the Israeli’s report looking into the cause of the intifada.
they reported (from wikipedia) “The immediate catalyst for the violence was the breakdown of the Camp David negotiations on July 25, 2000, and the “widespread appreciation in the international community of Palestinian responsibility for the impasse”. In this view, Palestinian violence was planned by the PA leadership, and was aimed at “provoking and incurring Palestinian casualties as a means of regaining the diplomatic initiative”.”
“Without them, it probably would not have been as severe, and it may never even have started.”
This is a myth.
You missed my point with “Is that true? There was no har habayis excuse in the 50’s yet fedayeen attacks became a routine occurance.” Terrosim was more prevelant then than today. Ditto for the hijackings in the 70’s, first intifada, second. NOne of these (with the possible exception of the second intifada) can in any way be blamed on har habayis. There isnt even an uptick in violence that can be linked to har ahbayis.
My example with the thug was to illustratete that when there is no patern, you cant say smacking the thug exacerbates violence.
mw13
“Does one need a scientific, statistical study to determine that walking up to an armed, anti-Semitic thug and slapping him across the face is more dangerous than just walking by him?
Can anybody here honestly tell me that they’d say “hey, walking by him is dangerous anyways, so what’s the difference”?”
YES!
If Reuvein walkds by the thug and gets killed, Shimon walks by and gets killed. LEvi doesnt get killed, Yehuda does, Yissachor smacks him and gets killed.
I think its hard to argue Yissachar got killed becasue he smacked the thug
Joseph
“ubiq, then you’re clearly not following the Israeli news cycle very closely. “
I do as I have for decades. Even if you argue that more people are going to har habayis now than in the past. You cant use this to blame the first intifada nor the second (which started before sharon went on har habayis and was planned for months before that) and certianly not on fedayeen attacks in the 50’s. There is zero realtionship between visiting har habayis and upticks in violence in ISraels’ history. If you argue that for now on theri is with an “n” of one. That is possible but those who dont see it are not blind.
Joseph
then maybe I’m blind. I have been following ISraeli news for quite some time. There have been waves of violence “ebbs and flows” as somebody put it. I really dont see any increase in violence associated w har habayis visits.
DY
“I directly addresses that.”
Im sorry, i missed it. Mind repeating or directing me please?
“Is there data, a scientific study, to demonstrate that playing in traffic is dangerous?”
So…. no?
DY
“Of course it is”
Do you have any data to back that up?
“simply has no bearing in the fact that this does incite them even more,”
why not? You also neglected to address this :
“There was no har habayis excuse in the 50’s yet fedayeen attacks became a routine occurance.”
mw13
“And one of the most important principles in Judaism is the value of life, and the lengths we go to protect it. There are very few principles that override this one – namely avodah zara, giluy arayos, shvichas dumim, and certain forms of chillul Hashem. But asserting Jewish sovereignty is simply not one of them”
That isnt completly true. Milchama both shel chov and reshus are allowed in cetain situations (not that this qualifies) Asserting Jewish sovereignty in cetrtian circumstances (again not neccesarily this) deffinitly overrides human life.
“Remember, the spark that set off the second intifada was Sharon’s visit to HHB. If he hadn’t made that visit, things may have ended very differently.”
No that was the excuse used. The intifada was planned for months beforhand if sharon hadnt gone up then there would have been another excuse
“It never ceases to amaze me how the same people who will go on a crusade for safety in so many places (smoke detectors, vaccines, and metzitza bi’peh all come to mind)”
Is there data showing that as more yidden ascend har habayis more attacks occur?
DY
“ROB, for the umpteenth time, yes, they hate us, yes, sometimes they kill us. With more provocation, though, they do it more.”
Is that true? There was no har habayis excuse in the 50’s yet fedayeen attacks became a routine occurance. This isnt about har habyis make no mistake about it. If not for har habayis it would be the kosel, if not the kosel it would be tel aviv and if not tel aviv it would be new york.
“Here is the question. Do people who are not citizens of Israel or do not live there, have the right to voice an opinion on any Israel related matters.”
I would say no we have a duty. But “right” certainly.
BTW you cant have it both ways. Did several hundered thousand people have a right to rally in support of ISrael in April 2002?
popa
“Who doesn’t feed the chickens?”
Many/most of the kapporos centers Ive seen Boro park have not (though I havent been by in the past few years so maybe this has improved though from some of the troubling footage Ive seen this does not seem to have improved, though admittedly the footage has been filmed by antisemites so I cant be sure of its veracity).
” I’ve seen them feeding the chickens.”
mazel tov
” You think because they aren’t constantly being fed whenever you walk by that they aren’t being fed?”
no I think because after years of asking those running if and how much the chickens are fed, and thenm saying its just a few days and feeding would be cost prohibtive.
” Are you constantly eating?”
No
” Do you believe every blood libel that is thrown at us by the anti-semites?”
No.
Dy
“Why would we make up our own definition of tzaar baalei chaim when there already are halachic parameters for it?”
Pardon my ignorance but do the parameters not include not feeding the chickens and not housing them properly?
Damoshe
“While I think the motives of some (many?) of the protesters are not just about the animals”
should read “most”
That said, It concerns me that amongst ourselves we cant be honest. It is impossible to deny that the way kapparos are done in a 21st century metropolis with many chickens crammed in crates with little to no access to food/water exposed to the elements is a far cry from the way kapporos were done in 19th century rural Europe.
Now you can argue that kapporos is an important minhag and especially when anti-semites are trying to eradicate it it is worth preserving in spite of the above.
But what cant be argued is that the chickens arent suffering, and it concerns me that some cant be honest enough to acknowledge that.
scared
He doesnt have to say why.
Its obvious, he is pandering to the anti-science kooks that form a big chunk of the GOP base in particular those who would vote in priamries
skripa
There is nothing wrong with you. You answered your own question
“the vast majority of high school and even seminary or yeshiva bachurim have no recollection of the twin towers,either before 9/11 or even memories of the actual day. “
Im willing to bet you have no recollection of the beis hamikdash, nor do you have a recollection of a time that chilul shabbos didnt exist.
I’m not saying you shoulnt care about the above ch”v. just why it is hard to feel the same way you do about 9/11 as the churban
Syag
Wonder no more! You answered your own question
“I have often wondered how people can serve it [coldcuts] for shabbos lunch.”
” to say that it isn’t a real meal or special without meat is somewhat subjective”
Popa
“Why are you so familiar with the menu at Denny’s?”
google out of curiosity. no need to be “so familiar” A quick glanc at the menu reveals more meat options than non-meat options
“Why are you stalking your coworkers while they eat breakfast?”
No stalking, I eat with them. (Though I have cold cereal)
DY
“so it is not “fleishig” in the way we use the term.”
Here is Joseph’s comment “Ephraim, I don’t think meat breakfasts are common in non-Jewish America.”
It is “fleishig” in the way the term is being used in this thread
standard practice in most communities has been to make a milchig bris, for reasons mentioned above. This has been justified in the past by no less than the Maharm Shick (YD 366).
Popa
Dunkin Donuts, Dennys etc have menus with clear meat options readily availble online. I watch coworkers getting breakfats daily and they do in fact have fleihing breakfast routinely.
We have a rich mesora. For which approach do you want quotes?
Iran will develop a bomb and we all will learn to live with it. IVe been saying this since March 2003 whn the US invaded IRaq
Stam
1. None of the two studies I cited were funded by the pharmaceutical industry. The second one wasnt funded by the government either. Granted their is funding to jorunals in general, but the very fellow you cite acknowledges this! LEts see your friend Grecon say “look I have no evidence that my stuff works and I am making a mint off of it but trust me anyway”
This article had no “smallest deviation” from the pharmaceutical comapny.
” i am keenly aware of the corruption and greed in all of this which makes everyone suspect. Keep your eyes open to this reality and you will see it over and over again.”
Agreed, so read the study carefully! Dont just skim the abstract.
Though when you say “makes everyone suspect” you only mean Doctors and pharmaceutical companies not quacks. Right?
2. So because the head of the FDA worked form a pesticide company that makes him corrupt and becasue he is corrupt he will do corrupt things but only for pharmaceutical comapnies (and not all ) and not tobbaco. Why does he only like industries that start with the letter “p”?
3. How much time after a few hours of blockage the damage is usually irreversible and often leads to death!
7. Yes it is your fault. You said Doctors give blank stares when diet comes up, when in reality it is FIRST LINE therapy for some condiditions. ARe Doctors as knowledgeable about diet as nutritionists of course not. Are Nutritionists as knowledgeable about disease/health as doctors of course not. Both work together to care for the patient.
9. Are you serious? My wife got a parking ticket while getting our children their vaccines. And heres the kicker there is more evidence separating vaccines from death than vaccines from parking tickets. In fact I dont think there is any data showing that vaccines and parking tickets arent linked. You dont think they are linked? Try telling that to my wife!!!
10. Wahls’s career is based on this snake oil
” If you have to take fish oil for ex., why should the pharmacy make the profit, let me make it. I see nothing wrong with that. “
There is nothing wrong with that! But only if it works!!!!!!!
And to say that becasue pharmecutical companies are making money then automaticly they are suspect (although they have published data on their side) But Mercola is allowed to profit without any data. Are you listening to yourself?
“if people are still going to them, that tells me that there is something to it”
They go becasue they are desperate!!!
“But, admittedly, i hear their fees are exorbitant.”
umm…Hello!!! please listen to yourself. You admit that they charge exorbitant fees have no data that it works, and these are the good guys in your view?!!?
“You clearly no very little about nutrition and alternative health”
Not a secret. I know close too nothing about alternative health. I know real health. The extent of my knowledge on alternative ehealth are dangerous side effects from herbal stuff and interactions with proven remedies.
“Don’t feel bad ” I dont, but not becasue I;m the majority. Most of my views on this forum (not thread) are minority views. I have facts and data on my side. Why would I feel bad?
“I’m not sure I’m getting through.”
Oh you are.
“Please flip through some images of people suffering from Cancer, Heart disease, diabetes, M.S., Lou Gherigs, Crohns, Celiac disease, ulcerative colitis, gallstones, High blood pressure , Hyperthroidism, Osteoarthritis, Osteoporosis Parkinsons, Psoriasis etc… “
I dont need to flip through anything I work hard treating/curing or managing ALL the ailments you’ve listed!
“Just so you fully appreciate what it is that your pro-medicine cult has contributed to. “”
I do fully appreciate it, I thank the Ribono shel olam every day for the treatments he has given us. We have come a long way in managing all of the conditions youve listed in part thanks to the evil pharmaceutical companies (even if they are faaaar from lishma)
” Take care of yourselves and I wish you all a ????? ?????? ???? “
You too!
p.s. as mentioned previously, please do me a favor and flip through some images of polio and its sequela (iron lungs, cripled children etc…) smallpox, Measles mumps etc…
I’ve done your favor and I will bl”n read Hayford’s book (50 cents on amazon)
edited
stam
before you go can you please do me one favor.
You clearly no very little about the subject at hand. Ive tried to fill you in as best as I can but I’m not sure Im getting through.
Through this all there is one thing that we have overlooked and that is the diseases themselves. Please flip through some images of polio and its sequela (iron lungs, cripled children etc…) smallpox, Measles mumps etc… Jusy so you fully appreciate what it is that your pro-disease cult is trying to bring back r”l.