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mdd
“I don’t trust that left-winger.”
I see. Mostly becasue it isnt what you want to hear?
That isnt my main point though
“Anyhow, with the deal it will be much more difficult for the Israelis to launch an attack.”
So do it today. What are they waiting for? Netanyahu has been saying that Iran is close to the bomb for over 20 years now! If the thought of Iran getting a bomb is so unacceptable, and attacking is possible and would be effective, attack now and deal with the consequences. What choice is there? ITs what we did with Iraq, (Remember how pleased Heilege Reagan was? oh wait…)
CA
Nuch besser! The US doesnt have the stomach for a 5th war in 2 decades (though Bosnia it has been more than 2 decades since Bosnia, and I’m surprised to hear you say we ar at war with ISis,the standard party-line is that Obama has been ignoring ISIS)
mdd
You are hacking ah cheinek, bottom line is like you acknowledged 3 times it isnt. The US population doesnt have the stomach for a 3rd war in 2 decades especially when the same pretense was already used in what turned out to be false. Whether theoretically if Iran where to do something crazy like attack the US or the political landscape would change overnight, would it be possible? yes. Would it work Doubtful, given the MOssad’s assesment butsome analysts say it could.
As things stand today July 21 2015 Attacking Iran is not an option period.
I’m not sure why this confuses you you have it right in your posts ” there some people who don’t like going down that path,”the liberals lack the will and the stomach even for a limited, mostly air campaign against Iran”
Thus it is impossible and not an option.
I’m sorry youve been tricked when Obama said “Every option is on the table” He was lying, he knew it, Netanyahu knew it, Kahmeni knew it and most pundits knew it. Ive often wondered who he was fooling…
Tirtza
You accused me of supporting doing nothing. I’ll grant CA’s point that continuing the sanctions isnt really doing nothing. (debatable). But certainly trying this deal isnt doing nothing?! I hope it’ll work I’m sure you do too.
“OK, I’ll leave it to others, I have a weak constitution.
Shalom”
All the best! I hope you have an easy fast especially given your weak constitution
mdd
bottom line is attack on IRan is impossible. period. As to why it is impossible there are many reasons, some you correctly identified. As to wether it would be effective. The Mossad says no. I’m inclined to beileve them, but I cant be sure. But some say it would be effective.
You were late to the party. From the get -go I made clear the gist of my argument is thta there is no alternative. As to what will happen with the current plan? Nobody can possibly know. I made this clear from the start, this wasnt a later addition
Quick mussar: Never be too sure of yourself you can always be wrong! Being willing to constantly reevaluate your opinions (even firmly held ones) is a mark of strength not weakness
“”All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” “
Precisly! I am not suggesting doing nothing, that was you! (CA and Joseph said it deirectly and you agreed with them!
seeoption #3 here http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/iran-bomb/page/2#post-575997
Tirtza
“We all repeat ourselves with the facts and you claim that your facts are better, less tainted with your so-called “knee-jerk” reaction than ours.”
you havent provided too many facts. The only solid fact Ive seen is “because we distrust it’s main supporter, Obama.”
“All you keep saying is the deal is better than none and no other plan will work.”
Um yes because that is a concise synopsis of my opinion on the matter. Thank you for putting it so succintly.
“At least I’m honest (to you and most importantly to myself) about my opinions being just what they are opinions.”
I’ll do you one better, I’m honest enough to admit that not only is this just an opinion but I can be wrong. See last paragraph of this post http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/iran-bomb/page/4#post-576737
“Why bother to attend that rally, it’s to protest the deal, you support it.”
1) I may be wrong
2) I dont “support” the deal. (Though this doesnt address your point since I dont protest it either)
3) As I mentioned to Joseph opinion and action are different
4) ??????????, ??????? ????????????, ????????, ????????? ???.?
Joseph
Wait do we have permission to discuss these things? Before formulating an opinion Dont we need clearance, or at least can I get clearance from you?
I was under the impression that we arent allowed to have opinions on these things
First thread dedicated to me! whoohoo thanks
tirtza
You give yourself away
“because we distrust it’s main supporter, Obama.”
“I have never ascribed to any of those stereotypes, partly because I don’t think they are true and partly because they give fuel to people like you, who profess “rationality” and “facts.”” In other words you do partly think they are true!
The quote you provided is more of the same. You claim it doesnt include any of the stereotupes, but it includes others
“”Is he purely a radical leftist, is he a Reverend Wright/Saul Alinsky sock puppet, is he a radical anti-western anti-colonialist, is he an incompetent teleprompter pot-head, is he an arrogant, egotistical maniac, a narcissistic fantasist, … he is all of these things. …stone cold … we are all expendable … pure evil here”
All this is coloring your view of the deal (and if you beleive any of it how can it not?). Like Lindsey Graham, Bohner, and the Isralei leadership I’ll bet you formulated an opinion on the agreement before knowing what was in it (I specify bohner and Graham becasue they outright said they didnt know what was in the agreement but they opposed it) Such disagreement isnt based on “rationality” or “facts” It is based on a knee-jerk reaction to anything from Obama. I for one do not much care for Obama I have had enough of him and sometimes long for the ISraeli sytem where we can get rid of a head of govermnment mid-term once weve had enough, but we are stuck with him for the next year and a half or so.
Please note nowhere in my comments to you or joseph did I make any appeal to authority or any emotional argument. This is strictly factual/logical. And I have yet to hear a viable alternative.
mdd
So it is not an option. Why is this hard for you to get? You keep repeating yourself. Bottom line is war is not an option either because “some people dont want ot go down that path” or because the “liberal elite” or like the mossad says it wouldnt be effective. period. not an option you keep agreeing yet formulating like a disagreement
Joseph
” What I’m saying is that you should defer your views to the views of the military leadership on military questions and to the political leadership on national security questions that you are not privy to national security secrets to.”
I hear if you mean lemaaseh, if Obama called me and asked me what I thought (and Im entitled only to the information I have now) I probably would defer to them.
But we are hocking that is all. Pleas make no mistake about it. This conversation is completly insignificant. I dont understand how a thinking person can say I say “you should defer your views”
Even in the Obama calling me scenario, I STILL would think what I think now. As a thinking individual I cant “defer my views” I probably would defer my ACTION, but “views”? Never. That is a terrible thing to suggest
That said,
Is it possible I’m wrong?
Of course! Certainly you have the insight to appreciate that it is possible that YOU are wrong (along with “military leadership”)
Joseph I’d love to discuss all those things!
But are you saying I cant have opinions? what about Rush Limbaugh Sean Hannity et al, after all they arent in the “military leadership” either did they ask you for permission to have an opinion?
Are you really suggesting that only military leadership can have opinions on the topics you mention? I have to say that is a bizzare notion but you are certainly entitled
mdd
even if that is true. Bottom line is you agree that attacking isnt an option. Fyoo had me worried.
Joseph
It absolutely does. If they have secret alternativ eplans it is there responsibilty to share them. We dont live in a autocratic society where “laypeople” accept everything “national leaders” say. And besides leshitascha what right do you have to disagree with YOUR national leaders who support the plan?
Please dont reply to that question it is an absurd question and you have every right, nay duty! to disagree with your leaders if you believe they are wrong. Keep up the good work
mdd
addressed already, see above.
Joseph
Fair enough. Well I disagree with what they are saying.
madianartshop
Accordning to R’ Nota Greenblat R’ Moshe ate chalav stam when in Memphis
Tirtza
“Because they would not have gotten:
Freeing up of other sanctions, for arms and ballistic missiles,
Giving them $100-150 billion to sponsor Hezbollah, Assad, Hamas, and the Houthis.
Help in protecting from sabotage”
They only get these things if they keep their end of the deal.
“Recognition “
I’m so sorry to tell you but they have been full members of the UN for quite some time now. I;m not sure what you mean by “recognition”
“If your point is that all political action is fruitless and the only recourse is to daven, well you are right.”
That isnt my point, but obviously its true.
“they send a message to the world, “Israel does not stand alone.” “
Obama has repeatedly said this, Obviously not enough though.
“
“I think that observant Jews, especially should go to the rally on Wed. and call and write their Congressmen. We each can do our small part.”
by all means! all I am calling for is cautious optimism. I am not saying it is a good deal.
“you are quite a staunch Obama supporter”
not at all! (though you probably would consider me one since I dont think he is an america hating -antisemitic-islamofascist-socialist-kenyan-muslim-atheist-communist) Obama has been a complete dissapointment easily the second worst president of the 21st century and I hope it stays that way. I am a fact supporter. Though as an adom gadol once said “reality has a well known liberal bias”
Jospeh
I actually have a theory but it involves more conjecture than I am used to so I’ll leave it off for now, as I feel I have satisfacorily answered your question in point #2 above.
Keep in ind, none of us are making any policy decisions, we are just hocking so i feel comfortable disagreeing with national leaders.
You argument is an appeal to authority which i am not that big a fan of.
Mdd
I dont.
Joseph
Good question
1) I dont know you have to ask them
2) I never said it isnt dangerous for ISrael, in the course of theis discussion I think that point is forgotten. ALL I am saying is that I have not heard a viable alternative (neither here nor from any of the people you mentioned). I dont think the plan is a good plan and I dont think it will work. I am failry certain (As I have been since Saddam was taken out of the picture over ten years ago) that Iran will get the bomb and we will all learn to live with it.
– Sanctions havent worked (and according to some have helped stir anti-US hatred
– Military attack isnt politcally viable (or even expected to eb effective according to some mossad reports)
– That leaves kicking the can down the road, and hoping that maybe just maybe either the IRanians will keep their end. and again if they dont, then we are back where we were July 14.
Tirtza
I didnt mean to insult. (I’m not even sure which line you mean “no-brainer”? I just meant it was obvious.
“No, I think that Iran’s nuclear facilities should be sabotaged if they are not being used to provide electricity or medical products, apparently I’m in good company seeing that the senior Israeli diplomat. also concurred.”
that makes three of us!
“Oh, how much do they have to violate to void because if they violate a little and the sanctions “snap back”(are presented to the UN for discussion, we know how the UN works), then Iran has it in the agreement they can void the deal.(really effective!)”
What? did you just say that if IRan violates the deal then they can void it?
If they violate it (even “a little”) the sactions immediatly snap back, no UN needed.
(“,”If you like your health plan you can keep it?””
You can! but that is a dfifferent topic)
“No agreement would have been better”
How?
crazybrit
You are making a few mistakes
There is no problem to get fleishigs during the nine days. AS Dy mentioned earlier. The only thing you cant do is eat fleishigs.
You say regarding your grill that pareve cooked on it is “fleishig gomur lkol hadaos” This is certainly not true. If the grill has no meat on it even without kashering it, pareve cooked on it remains pareve (but cant be eaten WITH milk). If the grill hasnt beesn used in 24 hours not only do you not need to wait after eating your pareve sausage prior to eating cheese,but you can even put cheese on the sausage bedieved. According to most though you cant lechatchila cook the sausages on the grill planning to place cheese (though according to the biur hgra you cna even do that!).
As popa pointed out even if the grill was dirty it wouldnt make you fleishig (though this couldnt be eaten with cheese)
redleg there is a differnce between opposing and sactions. threatening sactions if an “ally” doesnt do waht you want is the exact deffinition of abandonment.
You may have a different definition that isnt grounded in realirty, but that would make conversation difficult
“Does that also constitute abandonment? “
If shooting down aircraft isnt abandonment I think you need a new dictionary! (though IVe never seen any reliable sources for that story so Ive left it off since it is a better example of abandonment than 56)
“In many respects the modern State of Israel a child of the U.S. Tough love is still love. “
This is nonsense! ISrael is an ally not a child. If your friend thretens to take stuff away from you or punch you if tyou dont do what he wants, I have news for you he is abandoning you.
The notion thta Israel need the US’spermission to do what is in its own best interest is offensive. (Collin Powell snapped at a reporter in 2001 for suggesting what you are, Ill dig up source later)
Sushi there is no better alternative (at least none that Ive heard yet)
Tirtza says “See my comments there”
However while she does raise some valid concerns regarding the plan. she does not offer any viable alternatives, which is what sushi asked for.
akuperma
“By agreeing that Iran will get nuclear weapons in the foreseeable future,”
The agreement does the exact opposite
Barry
“Keep tightening the screws with sanctions and any other means available. “
Been there, done that. IT hasnt worked
and besides
“Do not fear my children, do not fear. All that I have done I did only for you. Why are you afraid? The time for your Redemption has come! “
I dont get it, so you are concerned that IRan will keep their end of the deal and not get weapons thus not fullfiling the yalkut?
Sushi
“This new deal gives them an opportunity to give in with their pride intact, it’s let’s the feel like winners but but still forces them to change. “
Exactly! and if they dont keeop their end, the sanctions return! and we are still free to try any other plan that hasnt been suggested yet.
Tirtza
“Where can I see the whole document?”
Google is your friend. Washington post has it, among others
“Did you read the section at the end, “Nuclear Safety, Safeguards and Security?””
Yes
“Check it out again”
I did
Arutz Sheva implies it is directed against Israel.
bottom line is If Iran keeps their end of the deal (and again I doubt they will) they cant get a bomb, and there is no need to sabotage their facilities. IF they dont keep their end, the deal is void.
Dont you think it is important to protect nuclear facilities from sabotage? This one is a no-brainer
redleg
“seemingly”
You have got to be kidding, you can argue that it was int he US’s best interests to back Nasser (of course history proved that wrong) but you can targue that he only “seemingly” took the arab side.
“was specifically to show them that they needn’t rely on the Russkis”
Yes and it didnt work. Did it?
“Just because the U.S. disagrees with an Israeli position or considers an Israeli action inimical to the U.S. interest that doesn’t constitute abandonment. “
Agreed (as in the Iran peace deal). However threatending sanctions certainly constituent abandonment
“Any President who put the interests of a foreign country or entity before the interests of the U.S. would justly be called a traitor.”
so you can argue that he was right to abandon Israel as you beielve it was in the US’s best interests but you cnat argue that it wasnt abandonment
DY
It seems mistaver to me, but I do not have a source
sushi
“How can you justify having a new like ubiquitin isn’t that kefira?”
What?
“he cant “take it like a man”?!”
No he is a egotistical child.
Egotistical children dont make good presidents
DY
I didnt make that assumption, PBA did. (I owuld think that if anything waiting would be stricter than nine days since the geder for waiting is moshech taam (see igros moshe i forget the teshuva exact mareh makom, but can find it tommrow on the rema/shach cited by PBA, wheras nine-days is simcha, but I do not have a mekor that say explictly compares the two.)
I assumed the opposite, that cooked in a dirty grill it shouldnt be eaten in the nine days, which is the way i remebered the halacha in OC.
Trump’s latest gem
(regarding John Mcain)
Man I love this guy!
DY
Thats what I was basing on.
Though PBA raises a good point
sushi.
“Can you really not see the difference?”
Im not sure what you are saying. If you are on a high darga that you dont want to “miss eating meat” or try “somehting new every day” Mazel tov! I am so proud.
It is a strech to call that “benefiting” they do the best they can and making parnasa during the nine days isnt assur.
Tirtza
“First of all, I could care less at this point what any president did or would have done, we are talking about today.”
Complelty agree
“I think that the way you take each point that I bring up and appear to answer it is quite clever”
Thank you
” but you are not answering the points at all, you are just latching on to something that you can argue about,like the “suffering” bit, you know that was not the point.”
I address almost every point.
The bottom line is, no viable alternative is beiong offered to the agreement
” The “allies” was a reference to Israel and Saudi Arabia, which is in quotation marks because they are not being treated as allies.”
The US has other allies, whiule I wish they put ISrael first, ISrael if far from the biggest/most important ally .
” I haven’t read the agreement but this is not speculation, they referred to a certain section.”
I have, it is speculation
” I was not making a personal attack against you, but trying to stimulate your heart, an emotional appeal, but I guess that only works with people who are not already convinced that they know the right answer.”
I dont knoiw thta that is a bad thing per se. Emotions are certianly important but logic is more important
Of course, I think H’ is the Director of all things but we are expected to play our role.”
Agred, though in your previous post you accidently put those roles backwards
“I’m very glad that I have returned to Israel because, being a person that experiences guilt easily, I would have hated to be stuck in America with Obama or his successor and something bad to happen to Israel, either by a nuclear attack or serious attacks thru Iran’s proxies.”
I shudder at the thought. Chas veshalom
“Here I’m with my people and I’ll suffer their fate without regret, you in the US will just have to suffer guilt if something happens and you did not try, even, to prevent it.”
I dod what I can. The agrement might prevent it. If IRna keeps their word then they wont have a bomb. If they dont keep their word the agreement is null.
” I’m not trying to make you feel guilt, it’s just my reaction and may be yours as well, if, G-d forbid, something happens.”
I would feel terrible, not guilty at all. Except in the communal aveira sense.
“One thing you can do, which I’m sure you will do, is pray intensely for the safety of Israel and the destruction of our enemies.”
3 times daily! (sometimes extra here and there)
“It is the Nine Days and we should not be arguing among ourselves but concentrating on getting all of Am Yisrael to unite and beseech H’, there are so many crises that need His intervention.”
Amen
“A Gutten Vok, Shavua Tov “
You too
CA
Not quite What I meant was this discussion is regarding the plan TODAY on July 17 2015 (ok few days ago when signed)
The gist of my argument is what alternative is there?
Arguing that years ago Obama could have supported the revolution isnt an alternative to the current agrement.
Sorry if I wasnt clear.
That said regarding Romney you are sort of right Since obviously I can be hundred percent sure. But I am certain he wouldnt attack Iran.
(for argument’s sake are you Will Trump deport all illegal imigrants? Would Anybody drop a nucleur weapon on IRan? I think we can be certain that neither will happen. I am equally certain that Romney wouldnt have attacked IRan)
Ben
“As for all Mideast countries supporting it.
They all did not just Saudi Arabia or are you completely unaware of Mideast politics?”
I am very well versed in mideast politics, Though Iam not sure what you mean.
Jospeh
I agree it doesnt imply, it is expressly stating. He said and I quote “…some I assume are good people” this means most are not.
you can quible that this isnt expressly stated but is merely implying that most are not. Fine I can accept that.
You cannot claim that “…some I assume are good people” does not mean that most are not, but rather are the things he had just said.
sushi
I dont know what he meant. I know what he said.
He has since had repeated oppurtunities to clarify what he said. He has yet to dod so, and repeatedly said he stands by what he said.
He didnt imply he outright said that most were “”They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists.”
This isnt an implication.
by concluding ” And some, I assume, are good people!” He implied that this is his assumption and it is possible that in fact all are bringing drugs. . bringing crime. … rapists.” but this is just an implication.
Sushi
It isnt a benefit, are you saying all fleishig restaraunts should close? Instead of taking advantage of a pareve menu?
I’m not sure I understand you, what is being advertised?
If the stores advertised “Come celebrate the churban by enjoying cheese blintzes ” R’L I would agree. But simply adveretising that they are open and have menus available is certianly within theri right.
How have values been compromised?
And I’m not sure how not eating meat is being “turned into a benefit” I for one am miserable already (which is the idea, as to why im miserable, its becasue where I work they have prepackeged lunches turkey sandwhiches, grilled chicken egg salad etc, the pareve ones are terrible, so I’m hungry today)
“Not respecting the consumers values can actually harm brand image” If that were the case they wouldnt do it every year
Ben
“Actually I for one think that Romney would have attacked Iran.
In fact I think that the circumstances in the Mideast would have been completely different Republicans won.”
Doubtful, though theres no way to know either way
“Whether you agree with them or not Republicans generally hold the military in higher esteem then the Democrats and tend to listen better.”
Depends what you mean by higher esteem. If you mean prevent their access to care and sending them into harms way under faulty pretenses I agree, but that is a funny defnition of “higher esteem”
“I fully believe that the would have been a Status of Forces agreement in place had a Republican been President ( the general consensus is that Obama blew it because of a general lack of interest) as such there would have been a larger US presence in Iraq as there should have been.
Couple that with the fact that there would have been a more robust deployment of troops in line with he general’s requests.
There would never have been a timeline given for the US withdrawal.”
The timeline was Bush’s
“The above facts on the ground would not have allowed the rise of ISIS to begin.”
Probably correct, but it was Bush’s timline
Also keep in mind Leaving Saddam wouldve prevented both ISIS and Iran devolping nucleur weapons (Cheney actually said this in the early 90’s)
“In addition during the “green revolution” American support for the opposition would have been clearer and possibly include covert arms from the nearby forces which possibly would have brought down the Iranian government as it brought down others.
A lot of “possbilys” and Arming IRan is probably illegal
” I think there is a strong room to believe Romney would have bombed Iran”
There is no room to believe that.
” or at worst supported an Israeli attempt.”
Bush had the oppurtunity to do that. Why wouldRomney have been different. And why does ISrael need the US’s permission? They are big boys if it is so critical for their survival,why dont they just do it?
” The reason is simple
All of the Mideast countries would have supported it (unlike the embassy move) and any one with a half a brain understands what is already being said.”
Not all, Saudi arabia MIGHT but never openly.
“This agreement sets off an arms race in region already teeming with millions of armed individuals calling for the destruction of the US led by a country that Obama’s admits remains committed to the same goal.”
The agreement prevents IRan pursiuing weapons! Now my concern is that Iran wont keep their end, but built into it is going back to sanctions.
“Even without Israelis interest’s it is an epically bad decision to basically allow you enemy to become you equal.”
Do you mean that? You beleive the agreement allows IRan to be the US’s equal?
Jospeh that is off topic and debatable.
Certainly those displaced from Gush KAtif would disagree.
I remeber his critiscm after Jenin, I was protesting his push to divide Yerushalyim at Annapolis. (why doesnt any body else remebr that, google it it wasnt that long ago)
Oh and remeber when he alloweed Israel to us US held airspace to attack IRan?
Me neither!
If by “best” you mean that he wasnt Obama you are right. If you are using any fact based measurment it is very hard to make that case
Um no sushi
he said most, here is the quote verbatim
“They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people!”
Ie “some” are good people most are not.(he assumes,he isnt sure in other words it is possible that not even “some” are good people)
He then stood by these words
crazybrit
If it there is bein Ie residue on bbq then Shouldnt eat during 9 days. IF the bbq is clean then the sausages can be eaten and dont make you fleishigs (though they cant be eaten w/ milk (unless bbq hasnt been used for meat in 24 hours in which case if cooked already (i.e. bidieved) can be eaten with milchigs, though according to most cant cook on bbq lechatchila planning to eat with milchigs)
sushibagel
“Doesn’t that defeat the purpose?”
Depends what you mean by “purpose” The purpose of the stores/restaraunts is to make money in which case advertising does the exact opposite of defeating the purpose! As for the consumer’s purpose once following his/her halacha/minhag and avoiding meat during the prescribed time. Any other purpose is between him and his rabbinical advisor
CA
I’m sorry I dont follow
Charlie
“Ronald Reagan is the President to gave armaments to Iran.”
True and lets not forget the F15’s and Awocs to Saudis.
And remember how he supported Israel’s attack on Osirak. Oh wait…
Mirzee
Those are VERY isolated cases.
Please note you (and poster and joseph) have STILL not aswered, do you believe most illegal imigrants are rapists?
Ben Levi
“He made it clear, over and over and over again that if Iran refused to get rid of their Nuclear Program he would take it out militarily.”
He was lying. politicians do it all the time.
Those following politics know it is a lie as it is said. For example, ANYBODY who says they plan on moving the embassy to Yerushalyim. (Like George W Bush promised in the past and Jeb Bush did recently) is lying, As he said the words most know it is an empty campaign promise. Ditto for attacking Iran.
(The only thing I wonder is how much of a lie it is when people know it is an empty promise, and how many people have to know. For example Mcain promised to move the embassy to Jerusalem, Obama never did. A friend of mine criticized Obama for not making the same promise though he admited it would be an empty promise, he felt that Obama not making the empty promise was a red flag. I was happy that for once a politican wasnt pandering what was obvious nonsense)
Hope that clears it up. Obama, like all politicians is a liar.
Though this aprt was true ” Romney Obama claimed there was no difference between the two in regard to Iran.” Romney wouldnt attack Iran either.
Joseph
Not sure if that was directed to me, but that isnt what trump said and it wasnt my question.
Here it is again:
Trump said that most Illegal immigrants are briniging drugs and are rapists.
Do you beleive that is true
Tirtza
you have it backwards “well I guess then, if this “fever” has infected even the likes of these, then there really is no hope in man and only H’ can solely save us.”
That is first of all. That isnt the “well I guess then…”
There is no hope in man period. Only Hashem can solely save us period.
Now on to practical Hishtadlus
“Like “forget” to pay the debt.”
“Stir up Eastern Europe against Russia”
Russia is the strongest power in Eastern Europe
Nobody is paying any debt.
“Besides , there is plenty of evidence that Iran, even with China, and to a lesser extent Russia, violating the sanctions, was suffering,”
The object wasnt to get them to suffer, it was to prevent them pursuing a nuclear weapon.
” “allies”back and start negotiations, aimed at legalizing the Iranian path to the bomb”
america biggest allies were involved in the negotiations. The plan as it stands PREVENTS IRan from getting a bomb. Now you can argue that it wont actually due that. But claiming it is “AIMED at legalizing the IRanian path to the bomb” is simply misrepresenting the facts.
“You make no mention of the most secret Installations or intercontinental ballistic missile systems.”
Because they are secret
“You make agreements to help them protect against any sabotage of their work and research, thereby thwarting a reasonable method Israel has to slow down or thwart their path.”
that is Arutz sheva fear mongering
” Perhaps when you think in personal terms, it will move you.”
I take extreme offence at that! I too have family in Israel and your children are my family too, may Hashem protect them.
Shame on you for resorting to misplaced ad hominem attacks.
A Gut shabbos to you as well
Redleg
America did abandon Israel in 56′ The fact that it was during the Cold War makes it worse not better, they took the side of their rivals The USSR against allies Britain and France in opposing Israel. You can say it was good foreign policy (It wasnt as it increased the Soviets presence in the mid east by getting Nasser to take the USSR side and support and he let the Soviets move in to Hungary at the same time, but that is way off topic) but it wasnt “never abandon[ing] Israel”
Mimzee
“unless you think his tough persona is an act & he’s really a wimp”
He is a nothing. He is a publicity hound who loves having his name in the limelight. He says what he must know is stupid but says it in a bullyish tough guy manner. Someone who says his big secret plan to defeat Isis is to “bomb them and take their oil” isnt a might sound tough but most of the populace recognizes that as just that: sounding tough, thats all it is a tough guy act.
Though you havent answered my question earlier you said he “speaks the truth” He said regardign illegal immigrants they ” have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems. They’re bringing drugs, they’re bringing crime…”
Note not some. Most
Do you believe that is true?
Lol Joseph
And your version of “advanced English” includes Bush Obama and Clinton too? what about the other 40 presidents are there names alos descriptors?
And why havent these descriptors been included in “advanced English” dictionaries?
ps dont worry I knew what you meant. And explained why attacking Iran is not a politcally viable option regardless of who (or what caliber person) is in the whitehouse.
CA
Are you serious? Of course I googled!
did you
” we must also bear witness to the courage and the dignity of the Iranian people, and to a remarkable opening within Iranian society. And we deplore the violence against innocent civilians anywhere that it takes place.”
June 23 2009
At any rate for arguments sake say he shouldev been more supportive. Fine
It is now 2015. Six years later what is done done. Are you saying A better plan than the current one is to keep all of Irans enrichment programs running and wait for the people to rebel?
Mimzee and Poster
Both of you claim everything Trump says is truth. his immigration comments were earlier mentioned so you mutve heard them
He said that most illegal immigrants ” have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems. They’re bringing drugs, they’re bringing crime. They’re r…ists”
Note not some. Most
Do either of you believe thats true?
Furthermore Listen to him in action. Truth or not he is mentally unstable, most people can see through his “truth”
That said I am so excited for the debtates! Its going to be hilarious!
(anybody else suspicious thta Trump is a secret Democrat trying to destroy the GOP?)
Joseph?
Bush? You are dreaming he tricked us into a war which got us in this mess in the firstplace. America is sick of war. There is less of a chance of attacking Iran with Bush (any Bush) than anybody else.
Reagen is dead sadly. I’m so sorry to have to tell you. (Unless you meant Ron Reagen? but he is a big liberal so he wont be attacking anyone anytime soon. Michael Reagen prob would attack but he isn’t running).
bottom line is it isnt politcally viable with anyone. Unless Iran attacks first (which is doubtful) the US isnt going to be starting a third war in under 15 years. Especialy when the very reason to go for war was already falsy used. (I know you probably think it wasnt falsely used, but most Americans do so even if you personally would support a third war, there is no question the vast majority of the US would not)
The US knows this Israel knows this and IRan knows this. I dont claim to have any chidushim.
CA
“and it couldve happened during the arab spring but Obama didn’t back them”
He did. Unless you mean militarily? and at any rate. It couldve but didnt so here we are today
Joseph
It probably is militarily viable, but it is not politically viable. (Regardless of who is in the white house)
mimzee
Trump has equal chance at being president as you do.
It is unlikely that he will even be the republican nominee, though he has a slight chance at that.
“who does the world think is better? clinton?!!!”
Without question
tirtza
“Actually the sanctions are what brought Iran to the bargaining table.”
OK so they are at the bargaining table. Now what a plan was formulated (I think a good one – if the Iranians keep their word which I doubt they will). The question is what is the alternative?
“More sanctions can make the Iranian economy even more insecure”
Doubtful, especially if Russia and China dont go along.
“and stimulate people to rebel against their tyrannical leadership.”
That argument has been floated for over 20 years now? When is thi rebellion going to take place? Their was more hope after the “arab spring” It has been 5 years now
Actually, Daniel Pipes was addressing options (they were for Israel but could apply to international efforts, as well) and his second option was for sabotage against the program, both viruses like Stuxnet and other physical acts of sabotage.
– also been tried and havent worked significantly.
“If they wanted to thwart the bomb, they could, unfortunately their greed for trade with iran blinds them, and well Obama, what his plan?”
The plan is readily available online. ID be happy to copy and paste if you cant find it.
“It’s good to have the threat of military attack on the table but to keep them guessing.”
Nobody is guessing All parties know it is a bluff
CA
“why do you (in plural) say the alternative is attacking iran?”
I dont! I said attacking is not an alternative. Most of the people I talk to think it is.
As for your options 1&3 are the same. It has been tried as hasnt worked.
#2 is more of the same, there is little reason to think it might be different.