ubiquitin

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  • in reply to: For Avram in MD #1085855
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    Fair enough, though It depends on what you mean by life support. But that is another topic.

    Though there is a difference once the person is alive, then he is fully alive until dead. Whears a fetus is not fully alive while dependent on the mother. IT is like her foot, or yerech imo if you will.

    “Are you also unsure that murder is immoral?”

    No. why?

    I am saying that abortion in society’s view (which is not immoral or unreasonable) and according to some in halacha as well is not murder. (though not neccesarily mutar)

    in reply to: For Avram in MD #1085850
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Avram

    You finnaly answered my question “Once the head emerges, the infant can breathe on his/her own, whereas before that time, if the mother died, the infant most likely would too.” So the difference between the two in your opinion is that it’s life is dependent on the mother. OR put another way it is not fully alive.

    Is that fair?

    “Well, I’ll let you debate that with Sam2, because he does not hold that way. If I wanted to chop off one of my arms because I preferred having one instead of two, according to him I’m stupid but doing nothing immoral (i.e., against halacha).”

    I would yield to Sam2, he clearly know more than I. But I was always under the impression that purposly being chovel oneself for no reason is against Halacha . I dont see where Sam2 said any different, all I see is that it is not immoral. but may still be against halacha (As to whether the 2 are synonyms, is the discussion on another thread).

    “Do the allowing opinions state explicity that the fetus is not a rodef in this case?”

    I would have to check inside, I’m pretty sure some do.

    ” It would seem to me that it could be,”

    Thats a big chiddush to me, and clearly not a simple understanding of rodef.

    As far as the reasons that havent convinced you.

    a. You only addressed one. There is still this: A pregnant woman who is chayiv misah is killed with her fetus inside her. We dont wait till she gives birth. not even a day. If the fetus is a person why is it being killed for its mother’s aveira?

    b. Reegarding your response to finacial payment. That is a technical halacha in Retzicha and misas beis din. WE only kill for a vadei issur, since we dont know if the living baby is a nefel or not we cant kill for its murder r”l.

    This is in no way similar to abortion for which the penalty is financial. There is no finacial penalty for killing a 1 day old infant much as there isnt for killing a 20 year old person. To sum up:

    Abortion – punishement is its monetary value

    Infant < 30 days – no punishment (because we cant kill for safek)

    > 30 days – misah

    Clearly a fetus is in a sepearte category than a baby.

    “Our reasoning is quite different, but the conclusions perhaps not so much. “

    agreed.

    “an we agree that the secular pro-choice “Abortion on Demand!” position is immoral?”

    This feeds back to the discussion regarding does halacha equal morality. Of which i am not sure yet.

    What I do know is that the idea that a fetus does not equal a baby is not immoral, and in fact compatible with Halacha.

    As to where that fact leads you, may be another story.

    in reply to: For Avram in MD #1085844
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Avram

    Please note you havent answered my question Here it is again:

    “why only after head comes out do we say “ain dochin nefesh” why wasnt the fetus a nefesh before head coming out?

    What changed? “

    You replied “”The halacha does not state that the reason we can kill a fetus when the mother is endangered is because it is not a nefesh.”

    Yes because we are note allowed to dammage a body just for nothing. If a person is inconvenieced by his leg, he cant remove it. In a life threatening situation then a fetus much like a keg can be removed. However once the fetus is born (i.e.) the had is out, it is now a person and no longer a fetus (this is the answer to my question above btw) and can no longer be killed even if the mother’s life is in danger becasue you now have 2 lives in front of you wheras before you hasd one.

    please note this isnt the only way of understanding the Halacha. But is certainly a valid approach. Namley that until birth the fetus is not considered a person.

    “Also, I am enjoying the discussion of these points, but I don’t feel that they are fundamentally relevant to my point, unless you can tell me that there is a valid halachic opinion today that holds we can abort a fetus when the fetus is not at all a rodef”

    there are many such shitas! For example say the mother’s life is endangered because of cancer nothing to do with the fetus. Delaying treatment would endager her life, but innitiating treatment would abort the fetus. Can the fetus be aborted, when it isnt being “rodef” the mother?

    There are shitas (not all) that say yes. a great source for these shitas and other cases is Dr. Steinberg’s encyclopedia on medical ethics (I dont have it in front of me to provide actual sources at this moment).

    bottom line is many shitas hold life begins at birth. Consider the fact that killing a fetus only results in finacial compensation to father, A pregnant woman is killed if chayiv misah even if her fetus is due today.

    THis doe snot mean abortion on demand is halachicly sanctioned much as amputation on demand isnt halachicly sanctioned.

    in reply to: For Avram in MD #1085839
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Avram

    why only after head comes out do we say “ain dochin nefesh” why wasnt the fetus a nefesh before head coming out?

    What changed?

    in reply to: is morality relative? #1086551
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    So morailty is relative? Because in a case of a machlokes, for person A the same act is moral and for person b it is immoral.

    I’m not setting up a argument per se, it just seems funny.

    Incidently there is a moral sense outside of halacha. Rashi says in many places that “mishpatim” are rules that we would come up with on our own like no stealing, no killing etc…

    Though this doesnt disagree with your main point, which may not be incorrect

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085274
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Avram

    “How does the way the doctor characterizes the unborn baby change anything? “

    Um becasue this entire conversation is about the doctor’s intentions

    I have encountered people with the exact story as you just a few steps earlier namely regarding Dor Yesharim, intervening with Hashem’s will, preventing life from coming to the world. I assume you dont agree with them, and I dont. And of course to you the two cases are different, but to them our view on Dor Yeshorim is more similar to the Doctor;s than you would like.

    That is just a side point though. The main distinction is as Sam2 said

    2scents

    “You mentioned that you are not referring to the bigger or general picture, yet you brought up the argument of diversions. “

    I mentioned the opposite repeatedly, this conversation is about the “medical establishment”

    CA

    “so where is it coming from (for that .1%? )”

    From “a dark and evil place to satisfy their lust”

    Seriously though some conflicts even among decent people cant be resolved even with open honest respectful communication. Plus not all medical proffessionals are decent

    “secular ethics is increasingly diverging from Jewish values. “

    This is a gross oversimplification, in some ways but not others

    “…even when faced with a doctor’s facepalm at our choices.”

    In those cases explain your choice.

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085265
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    In case this thread gets closed here is my closing statement:

    Hopsitals in general and ICU’s in particular are a stressful environment. This is true for the satf as well as the patients. Emotions often run high, and conflicts often ensue. These conflicts can be amongst family members or between the caregivers and patient/family. The key to successful conflict resolution is communication. Of course communication has to be respectful to be effective. IT is hard if not impossible to have respect for those who are coming from a “dark and evil place”. Most caregivers honestly want to do what is best for their patient. If there is a conflict explain your value system and listen to theirs. By no means should you accept theirs if you disagree with it, but try to understand them and where they are coming from it is rarely if ever coming from “a dark and evil place”. 99.9% of conflicts can be resolved with open and honest communication in a respectful way.

    That is my main point, all else was commentary.

    MAy none of you have to be placed in such situations, and may those who are have a refuah sheleima besoch shar cholei yisroel

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085261
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    Really mischaracterize?

    In addition to the great pull quotes from Avram above (thanks)

    There is also this “to be free to indulge in whatever you wish, to satisfy any lust” as a driving factor. I’m sorry but I STRONGLY disagree, and while it is nice that some of you are toning down his offensive view, words have meaning

    Avram

    You are correct about my It above.

    CA

    It is more than that. I am saying the “doctors who pull the plug” even if wrong, are not coming from a “dark and evil place” nor are they trying to be “free to indulge …and satisfy any lust”

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085256
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Avram

    “Oh, really?”

    Yes

    “And I absolutely 100% agree with you. However, can you not agree that the virtue of wanting to alleviate suffering can be led down bad paths by wrong beliefs?”

    Of course! Though that isnt what we are discussing

    “And I absolutely 100% agree with you. However, this is irrelevant to my point. Good intentions are not necessarily related to goodness”

    Fair enough, but Good intentions are deffinitly not relaterd to evil intentions

    Syag

    “I wanted to point out that 2scents used the word “overload” but NEVER made any reference to which population he was thinking of. You did that math on your own”

    Neither did I, YOU assumed what population I was reffering to.

    Though to be fair, it wasnt hard math. It is the same population the bulk of this thread has been about.

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085255
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    It seems that my shortening of Feivel’s comment into coming from a “dark and evil place” is confusing some people. So here it is again:

    In reponse to my saying

    “while they may be wrong it is not generally coming from a bad place”

    He replied

    It is in fact coming from a hideous place of darkness and evil.

    While you may to some extent be don l caf zchus and partially view the hospital consciousness as being a mere field of wheat being blown by the winds of the environment and the political correctness accepted as the current avodah zara, still the place this ultimately derives from is the same place that all evil, all isms, all avoda zara has ever come from. From turning ones back to Hashem, to be free to indulge in whatever you wish, to satisfy any lust. All disguised of course behind the license of a statue or of humanism or whatever you call it. Then there is no Ribono Shel Olam CvS, no sanctity of life. Every decision being made only by what feels good and will still leave me in the respect of my local and wider society.

    It bothers them to see someone that is much like themselves suffering, so let them die instead. Then we don’t have to worry about our own suffering. Works well. Conscience is clear. Problem solved. Why not? There is no Ribono Shel Olam, CvS.

    Maybe this is not always in their conscious thoughts, but It is their true motivation, and certainly the underlying rationale of this degenerate, basically atheistic, pseudo-love society.”

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085248
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Avram

    “If something is against the Torah, then ultimately its source is darkness and evil. Those who hold of those things may themselves not be dark and evil, but the source of their position is. Do you really disagree with that? “

    Yes! Strongly.

    Wanting to alleviate suffering is not (neccesarily) evil

    Beleiving that limited resources are better spent in one way than another is not (neccessarily) evil

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085245
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Feivel

    “But I guess as you say that’s not relevant to the question of the moral status of “modern” society. . “

    Remeber it was banned So society is improving!

    It is not relevent to the subject at hand it is relevent to the “question of the moral status of “modern” society. . .” That isnt really what we are discussing. It did copme up in passing on Friday, and I responded, that there are areas where our morals are improving (treating minorities, mentally ill, war, and now we can add banning partial birth abortion to improvments in morality,) granted we have a long way to go

    Minor quible “Cracking ribs is an unfortunate unintended potential side effect of a life saving procedure.” Not potential, it is definite, in the cases I’m reffering to. But I dont disagree on your general point on this matter.

    SYAG

    2scents said “overloaded” I repeated it and was careful to put it in quotes, since it was not MY wording.

    That you can ask that indicates you have not understood my point either. I am not sharing my view on the matter, regardless of what it is, I put Torah first, as has been stressed repeatedly. I dont get to have my own view.

    what I am saying is this:

    Those who have another view than I do are not automaticly coming from a “dark and evil place” They may still be wrong but not evil.

    in reply to: The coffeesonian/random's the word! #1085445
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    I do!

    I’m guessing you don’t 🙂

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085240
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    2scents

    “However, that is usually when they either have an overloaded ER or ICU,”

    that is my point and many of those “overloading” the beds are…

    “You are making the point that in the bigger picture healthcare money should be spent for people with a longer ypll”

    NO i am not making that point at all. In most of my posts I have been careful to stress that.

    “that is not the discussion here, rather how some health care providers treat patients that are not young or have terminal illnesses. “

    exactly, and wether the way they are treated is coming from a “Dark evil” place. THAT is what I have been discussing.

    And again, the lack of resources is not the only issue, it may not even be the main issue, but it is very real. PErhaps not on an indivdual level, but on the general “medical establishment” level.

    Feivel

    describing a terrible act in a horrible way doesnt change much. I can do the same about taking a 90 year old pt full of decubtus ulcers pounding on his chest cracking ribsetc…

    Abortion is not relevent to the issue at hand as I have outlined above.

    Health Of course it is based on PC. Life beggining (and ending for that matter) isnt really a medical question, it is a theological/ethical question. Sorry if I implied otherwise.

    I dont get what your refrence adds, It states what I said that ACOG namely the “medical establishment” is ok with or even “promotes” abortions. OF course not all practitioners agree, I never said EVERY medical proffessional favore abortions on demand. Again sorry if I implied otherwise

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085235
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Health the AMA and ACOG among others

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085233
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    I will read the Teshuva more carefully but does R’ Moshe say life begins at conception?

    This isnt nipicking, abortion isnt relevaent to the discussion at hand (like I explained at length above). You brought it up, I pointed out why aside from not being relevant your flaed tzushtel isnt even a tzushtel and you complain that I’m nitpicking

    I second Sam2’s statment

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085229
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    Don’t need to be a lamdan. The “medical establishment” does not view life as beginning at conception, thus abortion isn’t killing babies.

    Incidently, we dont view life as beginning at conception either. Though that doesnt make it automatically muttar

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085226
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Dy

    Killing babies? Thats the Catholic view. We believe “Ubar yerech Imo” though obviously we don’t allow for abortion on demand.

    I gave you a detailed synopsis of how we got to where we are today regarding “old people” and the best you cna reply is “come on be reasonable”

    After thinking of m earlier response, I have a question for you (and anybody else who would like to take a satb at it.

    The technology exists today to keep blood circulating in a body with no heart beat, we can ventilate a body that cannot breathe.

    Putting aside the Torah for a second (not literally chas veshalam, and as a frum yid, I hope you cant completely put it aside since hopefully it has affected your worldview) but I mean is assuming you say that a ethical decision that is not based on Torah is not automatically evil, which I beleive you said earlier.

    Should we prolong every (assuming no suffering) life indefinitely by circulating their blood with “thumpers” and Ventilating them with a ventilator?

    I assume you reject brain-death, so even if circulation isnt the best these patients would “live” i.e. “breathe” and have a “heart beat”for years to come.

    I have follow up questions bu I don’t want to get lost.

    (and at all times keep in the back of your mind, that this discussion isnt really about what the right thing to do is or the Torah thing to do, but rather is it evil to come to the conclusion that the medical establishment has)

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085224
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    2scents

    “since there usually is enough resources to treat both.”

    “that is not true. everything IS tied to money, money buys more beds and more staff.”

    I dont really understand what you are saying. Are you saying that there is enough money? If so for how long? Are you saying that there is no doctor shortage?

    “No doctor is faced with the decision of treating one patient over the other one.”

    Thats not quite true, hospitals frequently go on “diversion” sending patients elsehwere due to lack of capacity. You are in the healthcare filed, do you really not know this?

    At any rate, this discussion isnt really about individual doctors but about the “medical establishment”

    “There are a lot of good people in health care, but some are lazy and uncaring.”

    Agreed!

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085222
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Gamnait

    It depends on lots of variables. I’m not sure of the specifics in your (hypothetical?) question. So I’ll share a few thoughts with you.

    First and foremost, none of this is what I would say, what I would do etc… I yield to the Torah and it doesnt matter what I think. That is not at all what I have been addressing.

    All I have been saying is that the approach taken by the “medical establishment” even if wrong is not coming from a “dark and evil” place. So regardless of what I would say to her, her views are not NECESSARILY coming from a “dark and evil” place.

    She may be wrong, but she isnt necessarily evil. (of course there amy be an evil individual here and there).

    That said. I dont want to avoid answering your question, but without the specifics, I will comment on your comment on the matter:

    ” I used to volunteer in the hospital, going around the geriatric ward. There were patients who would sit there with untouched meal trays

    because they were unable to feed themselves.”

    Unable because they were weak? demented? no appetite? unable to swallow? unable to lift food?

    ” many of them did not have the time to feed all of their patients before the trays were collected again.”

    Whoever said I was wrong regarding lack of resources please read this testimony.

    ” I did encounter some nurses who did not care about their patients at all. I once alerted a nurse that something was wrong with a patient, and she just laughed me off and stayed at her station.”

    Thats terrible, she should be fired

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085219
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    2scents

    “since there usually is enough resources to treat both.”

    No there absolutly is not. Resources are not limited to $$$. It includes, beds, manpower etc….

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085218
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Dy

    Great question. I don’t think they are related.

    The trend towards “less aggressive life saving measures” actually is an interesting one. A century ago none of this was relevent, there where no ventilators, ICU’s, Dialysis etc… Even CPR isnt much older than 50 years old. These advances were all made in a time when medical decisions were made soleley by doctors. The Doctor didnt ask about “code status” or DNI, he or she (by far usually he) would decide if in his opinion the patient would benefit. Even 30 years ago this was a case. The average age in ICU patients has gone up not down over this time! (while life expectancy has increased slightly over this time, its not enough to account for the above). What changed was an increased emphasis on “autonomy” letting patients decide for themselves.

    Consider CPR, it was originally developed in the 50’s and is literally a

    God-send for those dying due to cardiac arrest. A patient’s heart stops they are now dying, by restarting their heart they can keep on living. With time though it began to be expanded to other patients. Now most times CPR is used it is used for a dying patient whose heart stops because he is dying, by restarting his heart he can keep on dying.

    Similarily for ventilators, they wherent originally put in with plan to remain there until the patient succumbed to whatever it was that was killing them. When Dialysis was first made available there was an actual commitee that decided who would benefit from it. (there was a fascinating piece in Life magazine in 1962 about this comitee)

    With time as these technologies became more ubiquitous they began to be more universally applied. That coupled with patients and thier familes being offered “everything done” the ages in ICU went up, chrnic vent units where opened and along with it medical expenses went up and up.

    There is no secret in that last stament it is well known,non-disputed and been extensively written about over the past 2 decades. The problem is how to reign in costs. Insurance companies would often deny coverage, Surely you remeber the discussion over OBamacare which was partly related to this very issue.

    Syag earleir had mentioned diverting funding from elswhere, he suggested libraries, I’m not saying I disagree, but then what? Roads/infrastructure? the army? The problem is as things stand and with all the (expensive) medical advances B”H being made, costs are going up an up.

    The tend towards “less aggressive measures” is a more recent one. It isnt quite as old as abortion. It is partly based on the above, in conjuction with the very real suffering that these patients endure.

    To make things more complicated, the technology exists to keep people “alive” forever. There are Thumpers, which are essentially machines that do CPR available in many hospitals. We could simply hook up patients with no heart beat to thumpers, ventilate them dialyse them as needed, and keep everybody alive forever. This isnt offered to patients so this discussion doesnt come up. Yet. The way things were headed it was only a matter of time until that had become mainstream.

    Would this have been appropriate ? I’m not usre

    Feasible? Absolutely not!

    What would the Torah say about this? I dont know as stated sevweral times, I’m no posek

    Are those who think this would not be a good use of resources, comng from a “dark evil” place? Absolutely not!

    I am not as familiar with changing attitudes towards abortion, it may be due to them becoming easier/safer, or perhaps as part of the “revolution” in that regard that is said to have begun in the 60’s. But I dont think it is related to the issues I’ve outlined above

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085210
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    Are you saying if it is not based on Torah it is automatically corrupt?

    Incidentally, there are rare cases where the rolls are reversed.

    For example, I know of a case where a patient was dying of cancer and the family wanted to prolong his life, as a son was on his way from Israel. The patient’s respiratory status deteriorated to the point that he required a ventilator. The Doctor’s were eager to intubate to prolong life for a few more days, but the Family’s Rav advised against it, since it would not really change the overall prognosis and once intubated they would be “Stuck” since it would be problematic to remove the ventilator.

    The Ethicst was flabbergasted, since a key yesod of modern medicla ethics holds withholding and withdrawing are the same. He could not understand if the Rav was willing to withold treatment why not innitiate it, allow the son to come say goodbye and then withdraw. Obviously halacha views them differently.

    (This wouldn’t change your over all view, just an interesting aside)

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085208
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    So based on one friend’s stories you’ve labeled the entire medical establishment as having “overall values” that “are corrupt”

    I thought we were friends, and I’m telling you the opposite, only Im not basing on “stories” but actual conversations with may many colleagues

    The overall values are:

    Beneficence (acting in best interest of patient)

    Non-malfeficence Z(do no harm)

    Autonomy (Patients get to decide)

    Justice

    Often these come into conflict (For example a patient who refuses life-saving treatment; Autonomy vs. Beneficence) And the medical establishemnt might resolve these conflicts in a way that is not based on Torah (though it often is the smae outcome)

    I dont see how these are “corrupt values”

    Would you care to elaborate the corrupt values your friend encountered?

    in reply to: Nisht Shabbos Geredt #1085579
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Lake guy if you eat chazer half as often as many say lashon harah, that is a wonderful kabalah! Good luck with it

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085192
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Feivel

    “But clearly (I would hope) I was talking about the source of the influence which is the general and rapidly increasing moral decay of modern society and culture.”

    This is relative, there are some ways we have made great strides in morality. For example the way we treat/protect minorities (including Frum Jews), the way people with mental illnesses are treated, greater care to avoid civilian deaths during war, avoiding war in general. I assume you agree that at least some of these exampels if not all are the opposite of “increasing moral decay of modern society and culture”

    “If you can. “

    I’m sorry I cant. I did change my view and no longer view you personally as being of an evil and dark place, you are just terribly misguided, and since it was your comment that got me riled up, and is shared by so many misinfomred, it will come up from time to time in the process of pointing out repeatedly how wrong your view is.

    A good shabbos to you too

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085190
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Syag

    “why would I answer such a question? “

    Because it is directly related to the subject at hand. The medical establishment that is so despised, has decided one way. The way that has been decided has been described as “evil”

    I am not sure why. There are times where “value” has to be assigned to people. Halacha has one way of doing it (actually several ways, as there are different shitos)

    The medical society has another.

    I’ll bet you have still another (which hopefully would conform to some (though not all) poskim).

    “How could I possibly make life changing decisions without the files in front of me? “

    It is theoretical, you can make up their files

    “When you choose between two patients, and you believe you are choosing appropriately, are you ever sorry that healthcare even demands it of you? “

    Do you wish you have two ropes in the scenario that you are having a hard time answering?

    Of course I feel sorry, as do most Doctors and nurses (though they may not always show it to you)

    “”I can’t believe we are opening more libraries when there isn’t even enough money to keep the dying old people alive!””

    its not just dying old people! Its young people too!

    There is an orginazation in ISrael called Efrat which for $1,200 will prevent an abortion. Do you have a car? thats about 10 children. Does your shul/yeshiva have a dinner? Take all that money and prevent these murders. After all “Anyone who knows the REAL value of a life would let everything else go while they funded healthcare.” why would preventing abortions be different?

    I do sometimes wish life was that simple.

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085188
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    I addressed that above. The criticism was leveled by Feivel was against the “medical establishment” The medical establishment is responsible to deal with the “systemic problem”

    As a complete aside. Please keep in the back of your mind that the resources aspect is only part of the story. another aspect is the desire to prevent suffering, and not prolong it. which again, even if wrong al pi Halacha (though it isnt in all cases, is also not coming from an “evil place”)

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085184
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    these: “need the blood” and “drowning”?

    I agree they cant be equated, since they ARE the EXACT cases I am discussing. Blood is occasionally in short supply (depending on the type) so it is less lemaseh. If you expand “drowning” to a patient in florid heart failure (Who in a very real way is drowning in his own body) then this is one of the EXACT cases I am referring to

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085183
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Syag

    I’m really sorry, I dont understand what you are getting at with the glasses scenario.

    As Ive pointed out halacha also recognises “contribution to society” though in very different ways than society at large, which is to be expected. See sources above.

    R’ Moshe has a teshuva in chelek zayin CM (i dont know off hand what chelek CM it is or the exact teshuva number) where he discusses priorities in health care. He says when faced with 2 people the chayeh olam is tended to. Though if already working on a chaye shah, he cant be abandoned for the chayeh olam.

    This is clearly giving a “dying old man warrants less medical priority,” (Obviously not nearly in the same way as the medical establishment)

    “but it sure as heck says a lot about where he stands in his values as they correspond with the Torah”

    Careful! You could be talking about R’ Moshe.

    care to answer the question I posed above

    “How would you choose? whoever is closer? whover fell in first? Male? Definitely going to survive? whoever owns the rope? whoever will live longer? whoever will do more mitzvos? The bigger talmud chacham Whoever will allow you to save more drowning people in the future? Some other criteria?”

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085180
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    “The fact that you can equate the terms in parentheses with the actual case shows how you’ve erred.”

    Was that addressed to me?

    Which parentheses? Do you mean this “getting people out of pre-war Europe”?

    Please explain the difference between choosing whom to save given a limited number of visas vs a limited number of hospital beds/staff/money?

    If you meant something else please ellaborate

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085178
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    No YOU are talking about the “wholesale discounting…” The medical establishment is very much looking at the one rope or one unit of blood.

    When a person has a loved one in the ICU, they have a single-minded focus just regarding the patient (which is how it should be) thye dont care about the 20 or so other patients that the physician has to tend to, many of whom may be sicker than their loved one. They certainly dont consider the multitudes of sick people in the general society.

    Therfore they dont see the other person “drowning” or who “need the blood” The physician does see his 19 other patients some of who he can (in his view) be of more help to. OR who (again in his view) the help can be more meaningful to in one way or another.

    This is the job of a physician to care for ALL his patients not just the one that you (I dont mean literally you) see. This IS the job of the medical establsihment to see ALL patients,not just the one that you (again not YOU) see

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085176
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    syag

    “if you are UNABLE to provide intervention to someone because medical ethics dictate that you use your time or materials on someone else instead, you should never think that it is YOU who is deciding their fate.”

    I don’t

    “If I have one rope and two people are drowning I can only save one,”

    that is precisely my point. But how do you choose? Halacha has one approach (though as mentioned it is far from clear as to what that is and perhaps not surprisingly a machlokes, how to decide.

    How would you choose? whoever is closer? whover fell in first? Male? Definitely going to survive? whoever owns the rope? whoever will live longer? whoever will do more mitzvos? The bigger talmud chacham Whoever will allow you to save more drowning people in the future? Some other criteria

    Many if not all of the above can be found in halachic literature

    modern ethics would fit with some shitos, making it even harder to call evil.

    But even if it didn’t doesnt make it inherintly evil.

    “I should be wishing I could save both, but understanding that I must pick one, and believing that it was Hashem’s will and He will deal as needed.”

    agreed, not sure why you thought I felt otherwise.

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085173
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    “Arguing to save the lives of young people before older people, most certainly is inherently evil and based on dark and evil impulses.”

    Take it easy, you are on very thin ice. There are shitas that way. there are shitas that put Talmid chacham before am haaretz (as mentioned earlier this came up in a very real way when getting people out of pre-war Europe), someone who will do mitzvas before someone who wont or wont do as many (eg men over women).

    So please be very very careful how you phrase things.

    It isnt “evil” if instead of being machshiv what we view as the ultimate contribution to society namely, Torah and mitzvos, they view “productivity” in other ways

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085171
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Syag

    I am not sure why you have a problem with “A comatose patient in an ICU is literaly taking a bed that can go to somebody else.”

    I’m guesing it is along the line of what you said earlier “will be believing full well that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it”

    This leads to an off topic classic hishtadlus question.

    Should a person who has chest pain go to the hospital or stay home and have belief in Hashem “that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it” ?

    Should he go to a hospital with percuateus corinary intervention available or have belief in Hashem “that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it” ?

    A hospital with PCI but not a CCU or have belief in Hashem “that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it” ?

    etc etc etc

    The “best hospital” available or any “doc in the box”

    I am not mocking, these are classic hishtadlus questions and I dont know neccesarily where the line is drawn.

    Most poskim I beleive would say to go to the best hospital available. If a hospital had a full ICU and the patient would not get as good care. I am guessing that most (all?) poskim would say to avoid that hospital even though that would be contradicting “” believing full well that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it””

    These questions are well above my paygrade, and I am not qualified to address them.

    Joseph

    It is clear from your post that you have not read what I am saying.

    “The comatose patient can die without the bed. How is that “a bed that can better serve somebody else”?

    You are saying that the comatose patient’s life is less valuable than the non-comatose patient.”

    i am not saying that, as I have repeatedly stressed. All I am saying is that it is not evil to say that.

    There are times where we assign “value” to one life over another. The idea that all lives are equal is a cute idea and a nice one for people not invloved but does not fit reality.

    Here are a few halchic determinats that perhaps you are not aware of.

    needless to say this is far from halacha lemaseh, I am just providing you with sources so that you realize the problem I raise are real, and people arent automaticly “Evil” if they reach different conclusions than us.

    BM 62a regarding one flask for two people “chayecha kodem” (though it is a machlokes)

    The mishna in horias says a “man comes before a woman” and Kohen before levi before yisroel” “a yisroel before a mamzer” and a talmid chacham before all etc… Granted that is regarding tzedaka but some poskim use that for triage in halacha.

    Poskim understand these halachas in different ways.

    for example the Netziv in haemek sheilah understands the sugya in B”M to mean that chayeh olam trumps chayeh shah (even for two people) which could mean that the comatose patient who is “taking up a bed” in the ICU (assuming he is a chayeh shah, which is not hard to imagine) should in fact be transferred out to “better serve somebody else” who is a chayeh olam. there are other achronim who learn the sugya this way. So be very careful before you discard it as “modern Western thought corrupt your values away from Torah values.”

    R’ Yakav Emden in YD says explicitly that a healthy young person comes before a sick old person.

    Not all poskim learn this way, it is a very complicated sugya

    And please please dont think I am paskening one way or another ch”v. I said this several times, but it is still somehow getting lost.

    All I am saying is this: Triage is a complicated issue. There are not enough resources (staff, beds and yes money) to help everybody.

    Halacha guides us in the correct decision, sometimes for people not versed in these issues, the halachas are surprising and there are often machlokisim involved like in all areas of halacha.

    For people who come to conclusions that are different than halacha (not me for the umpteenth time) it isnt because they come from a dark evil place.

    p.s. please dont get caught up on the specifics of the halachas above. In addition to it being a complicated sugya with literally life-death consequences, each case has subtle differences that can and will change the halacha. But the ideas behind the shitas above are at least theoretically in some cases applicable, at least according to those who hold those shitas.

    I’d be happy to provide more mareh mekomos if youd like. Some of these are based on an article in Hakira, RJJ or I forget where i’ll try to dig it up if anybody is interested.

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085165
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Syag

    “If society puts value on materialism”

    This isnt about materialsim. The money I refrence is not money that will be spent on a “halachic dinner” There is a certain amount of money dedicated to healthcare. That can be spent in limited number of ways.

    Arguing that the money is better spent on young people, smart people, cancer research, or whatever as opposed to comatose people isnt materialistic. It may be wrong but it isnt inherently evil nor based on “Dark and evil places”

    Keep in mind halacha does the same thing though we define “productive” veeeeeeeeery differntly than society at large. Many poskim hold, given limited resources Talmidei Chachamim go first. sadly this came up with visas to leave Europe in the late 30’s early 40’s. Other poskim have other ways of determining who goes first. But these decisions are very real. And that Society doesnt value talmidei Chachamim like we do, and instead gives preference to “productivity” in other ways, is not evil nor materialsitic.

    “This nurse, many years ago, would have been regretful and pained to make such a decision.”

    how do you know she wasnt pained? I dont know the specifics of your father’s condition and want to avoid specifics.

    Also I’m sorry I didnt mention this earlier, but I’m sorry you had to go through that. Having loved ones in an ICU is never pleasant (and that nurse sounds like only made things worse.), and I hope he had a refuah sheleima, and if not may he be a meilitz yosher for you and your family. He is lucky to have had a caring son with him in the ICU, sadly many are not that lucky.

    “Has money really altered the value of life as you say? Or has it just changed the need for the different decisions?”

    the latter. Though it isnt just money. There is a staffing shortage a bed shortage. A comatose patient in an ICU is litteraly taking a bed that can go to somebody else. I am not saying “somebody else who needs it more” but without the Torah as a guide (and even in select cases with it) it is a bed that can better serve somebody else.

    “It may be “right” in the medical world, but it is not “right” in Torah.”

    Again, I have said that repeatedly. I am not saying giving blood to young instead of old is right,just that even if wrong it is not coming from a “dark evil” place.

    “You say noone is killing anyone? Absolutely false. Nobody argues that people are being killed”

    I didnt mean noone. Obviously there are exceptions, but those are exceptions and I am not referring to them.

    Feivel

    Thank you for that. IT explains a lot and I feel much better.

    I also apologize if my tone was too harsh earlier. While I do know that the ideas you express “are not only incorrect, but they are the opposite of the truth, highly repugnant, and dangerous” it is limited to your ideas and not you personally. Thank you for your understanding

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085158
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    syag

    “I agree with you that how you present things to goyim or secular Jews in the workplace will make a very big difference and will yield better results.”

    With an attitude like Fievel’s (aside from it being 100% wrong) it is very hard, if not impossible to have a normal attitude towards people coming from “dark and evil” places.

    “Regardless of the intent of the health care providers, and regardless of the way you present the facts, it is important to always remember the Torah view that we value every second of life and what we need to do to preserve it.”

    This is not completly true, I hope these issues never arise, but if ch”v they do speak to a Rav competent in these matters.

    “The Torah way is the right way”

    I said so several times

    “This new idea of killing off old people and feeling it is valid “

    Nobody is killing anyone

    “but where do you think this new way of thinking came from? This was NOT the norm years ago.”

    It came from new developments allowing for a long time in any state. The advances in medicine have been amazing.

    Regarding your father, I have no idea about the specifics in the case, and was not referring to it. I used it as a springboard for a far-fetched hypothetical case

    “And if you are frum, then you need to also believe that if Hashem wants the other patient to live, blood will show up for him too. That KNOWLEDGE should fill your head with room for nothing more!”

    I have read many of the Jewish MEdical ethics discussions on the subject. There are different ways to determine who gets it first. None say what you said.

    ” And where does “low” eminate from? ” (regarding money in nedicine)

    In eminates from the new reality where people are living longer and longer. Costs are only going up, with more advancements and people living even longer. brace yourself… it is going to get worse much worse

    “As an answer to your non question, I certainly would have given all my clothes, cars, food and home to keep my sisters or parents alive, even to sit near them while they lay comatose. Wouldn’t you?”

    why only your sister? You can sell all your stuff today go to the nearest ICU and pay to keep someone alive. You can find a Jew or even a frum one. (With frum people it is less of an issue, since we b”H have a strong support system).

    Keep in mind people are “drowning” every day. The comparison to two drowning individuals is more apt. The ICU at my local hospital (A large regional hospital) is full to capacity, The ER is backed up pateints are often diverted elsewhere.

    DY

    “I also wish to add my voice in protest to the way Feivel was addressed. He deserves much more respect than that, “

    His ideas are wrong and backwards. It is one of the most untrue vile things i have read on this site. I toned down my language to have it approved

    “and his words deserve more consideration as well.”

    I have considered them. They are the furthest thing from the truth. It pains me that so many people in our community can be so misguided. It pains me to think of our chinuch system that can raise someone with such false views and to think they are “Torah based”

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085151
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    that is evil. Though that is rarely if ever the case.

    More often than not, the conflicts are raised either due to suffering of the patient, whether physical or psychological. OR by a “waste” of resources, which yes ends up pitting the value of one life vs another, though not in as dramatic a fashion as in my case, but for society as a whole in a very real way. Make no mistake about it. 30% of medicare costs are spent on the last year of life. That is a lot of money. We may feel that is money well spent. But it is not EVIL to feel if we spend that money elsewhere, say curing cancer, we as a society would be better off.

    To be crystal clear, I am not making that argument, I am just saying that that isn’t evil.

    These are very uncomfortable thoughts for most people, and probably never occur to people who fill their “heart and mind with the Torah leaving room for NOTHING ELSE.” (and needless to say we need people like that) But there is no shame in accepting that these issues are very real and very difficult, even with the Torah to guide us, let alone without ch”v.

    in reply to: 'Halachic Dinner" – What do you think about it? #1083437
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    I never said I was never oiver an issur in this thread just that ” hypercriticizing him for being critical.” isn’t hypocritical since in one case it was warranted and not the other.

    That said I accept your tochacha and will work on avoiding name calling in the future. Though it is very hard for me especially with some posters.

    Kudos to you though, I think you disagreed with every comment I ever posted, and yet can recall few times where you resorted to name-calling (I think the last time was regarding the shiduch crises which I cant believe you buy into the “age gap”

    JK)

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085149
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    syag

    I am hesitant to get in a debate on this because in practice I dont disagree. I agree with every word that Joseph said (definitely a rarity.)

    My only addition was to consider where they were coming from which makes it easier to interact, and more importantly get them to understand where we are coming from and thereby make it more likely for them to accommodate.

    There is a lot of mistrust, in our community against the medical establishment, which is not helpful.

    We can disagree with them vehemently and still understand where they are coming from.

    the majority of Doctors and nurses dedicate themselves to their patients. And genuinely want to do what they feel is best. Again, this doesnt mean what they feel is best is the right thing, It often conflicts with our values. However I assure you it does not come from any darkness or evil.

    Regarding your “very telling lesson,” I have never seen that. i have often seen the reverse, a person signs a DNR or doesnt want to be intubated, and a family member demands otherwise. (On more than one occasion a family member said this was to continue collecting social security checks)

    You describe “garbage society has taught, that your life is only worth something if you are productive” I feel funny “arguing,” since i do not disagree, but even in our society it is often presented this way. Granted, we define “productive” differently than they do. But at almost Jewish Medical ethics shiur Ive heard, the MAIN reason for keeping people alive in any state is that Every moment is chance to do mitzvahs. You cant fault the medical establishment for not valuing that as we do. And more often than not in the cases that raise these issues the patient can no longer do mitzvas since he is comatose. Granted every moment of life is precious, but it is hard to explain why. (Of course we have a fallback – because the Torah says so, which is more than fine for me).

    Health resources are limited. Rationing is inevitable. The only question is how rationing is to be determined: by finances? By the government? By insurance companies? by perceived usefulness? To us it is easy: by the Torah, but obviously this wont guide hospitals. Consider a situation where a person is on dialysis at a cost of $1,000 a day. For whatever reason insurance wont cover. The patient is in a coma not expected to wake up ever. With dialysis he can live in this state until a complication develops potentially years. Should the family sell their car to keep him in that state? Their house? their clothes? This is a very uncomfortable question, but it is a very real one and it is important to acknowledge that different conclusions are not inherently “evil”

    I dont want to use your father and that tactless nurse as an example. But consider a comatose patient who a unit of blood will help live another day vs. a 20 year old accident victim who the unit could help live another 50 years. There is one unit who should get it? There is no shame in acknowledging that this is a hard question. The torah might guide us one way (as to what that is poskim struggle with this, it isnt easy). But for a non-Torah person that doesn’t make a different conclusion “evil”

    in reply to: 'Halachic Dinner" – What do you think about it? #1083425
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    Lots Being Dan lekaf zechus, lo seilech rachel beamecha, Motzi shem ra

    Newbee

    “Not the those people who went are wrong per-se, “

    I can live with that.

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085142
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Feivel

    i would like you to consider this

    I have debeated all sorts of kooks on this site and in real life attributing such ranges of views from open orthodoxy to neturei karta on the Torah. I have never been so shaken as to the state of our chinuch sytem and that a person can have such a twisted view attributed to the Torah. This is a very sad day for me

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085141
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Feivel

    Just the opposite, by filling your mind with torah and nothing else you have little understanding of the real world. You have a childish black/white view of the world when in reality there is a lot of gray.

    Your view is wrong and perverse and I would want nothing to do with it. Please dont profane the Torah by twisting it so grotesquely.

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085136
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Wow Feivel that was backwards. Accusing people who dedciate their lives to helping others (not that this is the motivation of all Doctors but it is of many (at least partly) of being of “darkness and evil.” Your views are pretty dark and evil, and it saddens me to think of whatever experience you must have had to lead you to this perverse mischaracterization.

    You say it comes from “From turning ones back to Hashem”

    Now this may surprise you but most people working in hospitals dont know of Hashem, they cnat turn their back on something they never heard of

    “It bothers them to see someone that is much like themselves suffering, so let them die instead. Then we don’t have to worry about our own suffering.”

    Halcha takes this approach also in many cases. So youll agre that the idea itself isnt wrong (I hope), the only question that remains is when to apply the specifics.

    in reply to: 'Halachic Dinner" – What do you think about it? #1083421
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    I dont follow, in the very post you cite, I mention Tochahcah is sometimes appropriate. My only critique is that in THIS case tochacha for a musar-ideal when you dont know the people involved or the level they are at is inappropriate.

    Newbee

    “No no no- you are cheating. I never referred to giving tochacha in my list. Thats not #4.”

    I’m not sure what you mean. I know you never reffered to it, yet that is the main thing (only thing?) we disagree on namely: Is tochacha appropriate regarding mussar ideals when people are not on the level.

    I have been saying this over and over.

    Granted as DY points out, there were some posts where you indicate that your main concern was the “hypocricy” of this dinner. But that was not your inital post nor your only concern: “At first I thought it was a joke, but then I realized it was probably geared towards very wealthy MO BTs who love expensive food and Rov Joseph Ber Soloveitchik (in that order)- so then I said yea, I guess this makes sense.”

    “#4 is… the concept of nuval bereshus hatorah applies to the every-man, and is not limited to the most elite of Jewish people.”

    Depending on their level, what is one person’s nivul is another’s tuesday. Keep in mind this event isnt a every day event. Like it says on their website “Thank you to our sponsors and patrons whose generosity enabled us to make this UNIQUE OPPURTUNITYy as inclusive as possible:”

    Seems silly to describe this as nivul bershus hatorah (depending on their level)

    in reply to: 'Halachic Dinner" – What do you think about it? #1083417
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    “Continue by pointing out the hypocrisy of posters hypercriticizing him for being critical.”

    Thats silly. I dont think anybody here said criticizing is wrong. In fact a thread was started as an ofshoot of this to that affect.

    The only question is whether criticism is appropriate in this case.

    in reply to: 'Halachic Dinner" – What do you think about it? #1083412
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    newbee

    to be clear you are dead wrong on point 2 as Sam2 points out, I just see how you were led to your mistake.

    Again I’m npot saying there is no level to strive towards to avoid this meal. I am questioning the Tochacha for those not on the level. (much like critiscing spending time on ywn instead of learning)

    Now having explained precisely in your mistaken train of thought where I lose you, Here is mine For the 4th? 5th? time:

    1) No issurim were involved in the dinner

    2) There is a level to strive towards to avoid Gashmiyus

    3) This level is dependent on the people involved.

    4) The people attending this dinner are not on your lofty level. OR more to the point – you dont know if they are

    5) Giving mussar to people regarding a level they arent holding by is inappropriate

    6) You criticized the dinner

    7) Your criticism is inappropriate

    Where Do I lose you.

    I’ll even help you analyze each step:

    1) I think we agree on this, I beleive you said so explicitly.

    2) We deffinitly agree

    3) Do you beleive everybody is at the same level? (Obviously not)

    4) Do you know the level the people at the dinner are on? (Obviously not)

    5) Do you think it is appropriate to give people mussar regarding a level they arent on? (Proably not?)

    6) We arent disagreeing on this one.

    7) Is the only conclusion I reach following the train of thought above.

    With which point do you disagree?

    in reply to: Hospital Horror Stories? #1085134
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    Thanks for the clarification

    “the hospital staff can at times go further than just not treating a suffering patient and let him die. At times they will facilitate his death. Or not feed him. Or not treat him for common ailments readily remedied that will cause death if left unattended. All of this has been widely reported on over the past decade and longer.”

    I agree with the FACTS as you state them. (part of) the problem is primarily one of attitude. IT is important to understand where the hospital is coming from, and while they may be wrong it is not generally coming from a bad place. Usually these disputes are easily resolved with open and honest communication and avoiding phrases like “facilitate his death.” Even if it may be true.

    For example, you mention the idea of not feeding the patient. The fact as you state them is correct. However it is a matter of perspective. The general medical establishment as well as ethical societies, All major Religions and even various “branches” of Judaism, all view artificial feeding whether by Tube feeds via PEG/NG tube or TPN as “medicine” and not “food”. Orthodox Judaism is alone in viewing artificial nutrition as food. Obviously we couldnt care less what other religion or ethical societies have to say on the subject, but the hospital cares so they arent wrong for pushing to avoid these “life prolonging medicine” (what we consider a basic need) in a patient who is suffering. Keep in mind, halacha also allows withholding life-prolonging-medicines in such cases. By communicating with the hospital that we understand where they are coming from and that they have the best interest of the patient in mind, but to us artificial nutrition is a basic need, that (generally) cant be withheld.

    Again, i ma not disagreeing with any fact youve stated, just the attitude. A little understanding (even if we vehemently disagree with them) goes a long way, and can generally ease a charged situation.

    in reply to: 'Halachic Dinner" – What do you think about it? #1083405
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Newbee

    I just had another thought you are missing a step someplace just because something is a torah value doesn’t mean if someone doesn’t follow it he deserves criticism.

    For example I assume you agree their is a level of learning torah every free second. That doesnt automatically mean anybody who spends anytime on ywn is automatically a batlan. It depends on their level, and without knowing the persin youd be wrong to criticize.

    And along the lines of your number 3 above… dont get me started on calling “batalah world news” by the name “yeshiva world news”.

    (That last line was a joke btw)

    in reply to: Emunah based on falsehood #1083450
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    True Sam2

    Thats why it intrigues me, where other people might say whats the point of arguing I find it fascinating when people with silly beliefs not only refuse to accept reality, but become more entrenched in their silliness.

    Many of my arguments on this very site remind me of those

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