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CA
It depends what the alternative is. Attacking IRan isnt a real option, it is a charade. Obama knows it Netanyahu knows it and Rouhani knows it. Allthe talk from all parties regarding “redlines” “all options are on the table” is all a charade that all parties knows is one.
So given that attacking Iran isnt an option.
What alternative plan is there? A plan can only be judged when weighed against alternatives.
OOmis
1) The gemara says we are not experts on the exact letters in the Torah (nothing that affects meaning, just “chaseiros veyeseiros” )
2) To that end, the Gemara in several places makes derashas based on “extra” or “missing” vavs that we dont have
3) There are several differences between our sifrei Torah and Yemenite. most famously whether “dakah” has a heh or aleph
4) Dont let it shake your belief none of this has significant effect on any of the Torahs’ meaning so shouldnt affect your day to day living
CA
I’ll bite, defend what exactly?
DY
I dont think Ive created any straw men, and i never twisted your words or position
you did not answer this
“So again to be clear: If I stick in vavs all over the place, If I understand you correctly you believe we will still find codes since that was caused by hashgacha, even if I do it to corrupt the text?
and you dont think this undermines the whole notion of the codes?”
I’ll show you were you were dishonest
DY Q : “”If the codes which Rips and the other people used are mathematically impossible, you’re going to say that’s meaningless? “”
Ubiq A: “It is not impossible. It is a certainty….”
DY “… I don’t have an opinion on the actual math.”
THis seems dishonest. I get that you claim not to have an opinion on the math, but I replied to a direct question that YOU asked based on the assumption that the math was right. Well as I pointed out it isint, so I’m not sure how you expect me to respond I’m sorry if I misunderstood but that seems pretty dishonest to me.
Bye
Jospeh
by not answering questions?
If you say so
Plus the point that DY hasnt satisfactorily addressed is that when dealing with skipping letters there is no “The Torah” since there are variations, even one letter could throw off the whole ELS therby negating the entire code. So which Torah “knew minute details of world history, to our very age” Ours? the yemenite? chazals? He is left with two posibilites either all of them, and is forced to say that Hashem guided all these mistakes to still contain codes (and any upcoming mistakes will contain codes as well) OR only our torah contains codes but not the original Torah given at Sinai.
When you say he preveailed, which of these positions do you accept?
Rebyidd
Not sure what you mean by “real” The codes are there. The question is do they have signficance.
On the Asih website they describe the significance as “But what they do tell us is that the author of the Torah knew minute details of world history, to our very age.”
Which would mean that Tolstoy and Mellvile also “knew minute details of world history, to our very age”
DY
That is a lot of conjecture
As Sam once said torah code believers arent interested in truth. At least you can admit that in order to answer my “major question” you have to rely on conjecture on top of conjecture kudos to you. Maybe Hashem did orchestrate it that way, or maybe lehavdil elef alfei havdalos space aliens did After all any conjecture is reasonable do defend codes.
So again to be clear: If I stick in vavs all over the place, If I understand you correctly you believe we will still find codes since that was caused by hashgacha, even if I do it to corrupt the text?
and you dont think this undermines the whole notion of the codes?
As for your last point
You arent being honest you asked a question “”If the codes which Rips and the other people used are mathematically impossible, you’re going to say that’s meaningless? “”
I replied that it is not mathematically impossible
You then said you “dont have an opinion”
so you are asking questions based on something you have no opinion and when I address your direct question you ask why am I adressing that point since you dont have an opinion?
“True, but we are not given many variations, just the one we have. So your point is wrong.”
No there are many variations (as outlined before) plus the potential for more if more chaseiros/yeseiros are introduced. Either they all have codes (which would lessen the uniqueness of the codes) Or only ours, in which case why are we the lucky ones. Mah nafshach the premise is flawed!
Simple question: Say I stick in Some vavs here and there r”l would the new product contain codes? Keep in mind this is no longer min hashamayim this is me making trouble.
Now what if those same vavs were introduced by accident (as has happned) would THIS contain codes?
“If you find that strange (I don’t have an opinion) so posit that it’s there as well. Mah nafshach.”
I find it very hard to believe that you dont have an opinion, you have an opinion are virtually everything. Even if you dont, formulate one. As mentioned previously you have the mah nafshach backwards. Wether all versions of the Torah have codes or only one. The premise falls apart.
(What would carry weight, is if the exact version handed down at Sinai contains these codes. THAT would be interesting, but sadly lkula alma we do not have the exact version from Sinai)
“Whose codes, whose methodology, which proponents? I’m maskim that Drosnin is a quack.”
I’ll bet the Christian coders are quacks too. Only codes that relate to yahadus are from non-quacks.
“For the third (fourth? fifth?) time, I don’t have an opinion on the actual math. There are apparently experts on either side. “
Not quite, in your last post you said the codes were “mathematicaly impossible” see here: “If the codes which Rips and the other people used are mathematically impossible,” I was respnding to this point.
Dy
I knew you were missing something, here it is:
“If you think (for who knows what reason) that codes appearing in all variations of chaseros and yeseiros in a way which is a mathematical impossibility”
This is wrong. Given enough variations of chaseiros and yeseiros, that “codes” will be found in some of them is a mathematical certainty. Certainly not a “impossibility”.
“you can still posit that it’s only in this one, which is the one Hashem knew would be here in the computer age.”
You really dont find that strange at all? That chazal’s Torah didnt have codes but only ours does?
“And again, the proponents I’m referring to deny that the codes work elsewhere”
I am looking at codes in moby dick as we speak. That the proponets deny what I see with my eyes right now, says a lot about this quackery
“If the codes which Rips and the other people used are mathematically impossible, you’re going to say that’s meaningless? “
It is not impossible. It is a certainty. It is one thing if we decide beforehand what we are looking for say “Barack Obama” but to go on a fishing hunt through 304,805 letters in the Torah after weve decided what we are looking for. B Obama, Barack Obama, B H Obama, Barack hussein Obama, President Obama, President B obama, (dont forget we dont need vowels in hebrew). The probablity of finding something that we can attach meaning to aproaches 1! a certainty!
(Note: this is a second problem with the codes, not related to the “major problem” identified earlier)
DY
Regardless of which came first the bottom line is the same “codes” found in the Torah by Droznin or anybody else are also found in those works lehavdil.
The codes are readily avilable online. “contesting” them doesnt make them go away.
” either ours is “correct””
So you are willing to posit that our Sefer Torah is more similar to the version handed down at Har Sinai than that of Chazal?
I suppose you can say that (It makes me very uncomfortable). But certainly you can agree this is a “major question” or at the very least a “problem”
“Whether He put it into any others is immaterial.”
Hardly! that undermines the very nature of the codes. If they exist in all variations of the Torah that ever existed and that might oneday exist, then what makes them special.
If chas veshalom I write a sefer torah missing a few vavs here and there and add a few others, and in generations it somehow becomes the most prevelant one (granted very unlikely, but whose to predict how the galus will play out (aside from the codes of course :-)) would it contain codes?
If yes: Then the codes are meaningless if any text similar to the Torah contains them!
If no: What is so special about the version we have that only it contains codes?
DY
The math works in moby Dick, the “new testament” war and peace and Drozin’s own book.
So let me see if I understand you correctly. The text of our Torah is slightly different than Chazal’s. Did their Torah contain codes or only ours? If both what about Rashis? what about the Leningrad codex?
Assuming all contain codes at The ribono shel olam planted codes in all variants of text over our galus. This is certainly possible but it certainly undermines the excitment of the codes when every version contains them. Dont you agree?
And if only our version contains them, does that mean we have a more authoritative version than chazal?
“If you believe the Torah is from Hashem, then the whole issue is very plausible. We learn that everything is contained in the Torah, this is just one of the methods of deciphering it. “
Granted, except for a major problem: As the Gemara says We arent bekium in chaserus veyeseiros. In other words the exact number of letters in the Torah recieved at Sinai is unknown. This doesnt make much practical difference to our day to day lives. But the premise of the Torah codes invloves exact knowledge of letters and equal spaces between them. What Torah do you use? Ashkenazi? Yemenite? The Gemara’s which has some maleh casers we dont? Rashi’s “Ves kol ahser etzavicha”?
Bary
I read everything I can find on the subject.
I have two questions:
You said earlier that the fellow predicted “he [Obama] will be so bad for us, that it will lead to Moshiach.”
did it say how long after?
Also can you please rellay a message to this fellow
Could you please ask him to predict who will win the next US election. It can be narrowed down to say 20 names or so, Should take a matter of minutes to run. And if my understanding of the idea behjind the Torah Codes is correct. One and only one name should pop up? Sowho is it gonna be?
Thank you
Bary
I have spent time looking over the literature on “torah codes” and it is utter hogwash
“torah codes” have been found in moby dick and war and peace. My favorite is “codes” that have been found in Drosnin’s book identifying him has the real unabomber. “codes” have been found in the Christian bible as well and some of the “codes” found in the Torah attest to the divinity of osa haish r”l.
Keep in mind the odds of finding an allusion to an event after it occurs is 100%. And the predictions they have made beforehand dont come true. (See examples cited above)
They have been refuted by many mathemetcians
Joseph
Somebody earlier mentioned hats, I’m curious as to your take on this.
There are two fine, and otherwise equal, Yidden. One spent his entire life being careful to only go on Shabbos with a shtreimel. When he traveled he either took along a shtreimel or borrowed one. At home he spent the extra dollars, despite his meager income, on always buying a shtreimel. Despite the extra costs, hassles, he was always happy to serve Hashem.
The second fine Yid lived a righteous life almost the same way as the first. The only notable difference was that he happily davened with a fedora. He had his hat on at home, work and away. If Borsalino was on sale or cheaper than Kraus’s, Borsalino was the brand he put on his head.
Will the first Yid get any more Olam Haba than the second for having been careful to only wear a shtreimel?
Or to use your rephrased question:
The premise here is that going on shabbos without a shtreimel is muttar.
Is there any spiritual benefit for a person to choose to wear a shtreimel?
Joseph
Im not that well versed in “spiritual benefits”
But “Is there any spiritual benefit for a person to choose not to eat Cholov Stam?” Probably for some people, probably some times.
then again I am sure that there are also spiritual benefits for a person to choose to eat chalav stam. Though again, depending on the person and situation.
Jospeh
“I see, there should never be halachic discussions since everyone has a Rov.”
I never implied or said otherwise!
“If you hold that CS is muttar wouldn’t you want to know if there’s ever any spiritual reason to spend more money on a gallon of CY milk or buy CY chocolate or ice cream rather than CS milk, chocolate or ice cream?”
sure! though
a. thats not the way you laid it out in the op.
b. It is my firm belief that once we enter the land of muttar. “spiritual reasons” involving higher levels are not for anonymous posters to decide, since by defintion they depend on each persons level which you cannot possibly know. See these threads:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-requirement-for-everyone-to-give-tochachah
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/halachick-dinner-what-do-you-think-about-it
Maybe Im the biggest baal nefesh who ever lived in which case youd be right to push me to avoid chlav stam. Maybe I just started keeping kohser and struggle daily with it in which case you would be wrong. The point is once mutar, and when trying to get “spiritual levels” or “more olam haba” Worry about yourself not others!
p.s.
?? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???, ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???,
??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???????,
(I added that last part)
Joseph
“but an answer can be ascertained and in fact needs to be ascertained”
I disagree with both. For example in your OP if the Ribono shel olam where to aks my opinion, I would say if guy A avoided CY so he can brag to others what a baaal nefesh he is or to gloat on an online forum how frum he is while guy b is a “fine righteous” yid who followed his posek then guy b would get more olam haba.
But again I have no idea, none of us do. This is a question that cannot be answered nor should it be. Be the best you can be, dont worry about getting more olam haba than the next guy. That is a very immature way to approach life.
What is there to add? 99% of your post is something that 100% people would agree on.
The only part that MIGHT be more nuanced is lipid profiles, which the general consensus is to check all at age 35, those with risk factors at 25.
Even if you insist that lieterally everybody should have lipid profile regrdless of age or risk stratification. I still wouldnt argue since the expense and risk are minimal.
So what are you looking for? machlokes lesehem machlokes?
Joseph
“So even if are to grant CS is muttar, as numerous authorities do, does that then negate those adherents from receiving greater schar?”
I dont know. That is above my paygrade. If the ribono shel olam really wants my opinion. Sure give them more! the more the merrier!
I dont make it a habit to try to limit opther people’s olam haba.
There is room for us all to get whatever we deserve.
“There is the fact that a baal nefesh should refrain from CS even though its muttar.”
so for a non baal nefesh….
cmon you can work this out
newbee
The answer to your question is quite simple
It is believed that males and females have generally equal mental capabilities (note: I am not saying I beleive it)
So as to your question:
“Why is there such a huge push to completely obliterate gender differences and eliminate traditional male and female professions? “
1) fairness. IF they have equal capabilities they should have equal oppurtunities.
2) For the betterment of society. Assuming men and women have equal capabilites, then statisticly of the 1000 best software coders 500 are men and 500 are women. If software coders are 75% male that means that there are 250 (female) coders out there better than 250 coders that you have, but have been shut out for another reason, perhaps their gender.
Again this is all based on the assumption that men and women are equally good at software coding
Joseph
Where did you get the notion that there is a limited amount of olam haba that has to bed divide up?
Even if there isnt enough olam haba to go around and it must be divide up,why cant we leave that to the ribono shel olam?
While on the subject though, my rebbe R’ Shurkin (a talmid of R’ Moshe) would often say you get double schar for eating chalav stam: for keeping kosher and for listening to the pesak of a gadol.
Joseph
1) must does not equal yeharg veal yaavor
2) Rav Heineman pretty much explictly said that beshas hadchak. He also explictly said that he was following R’ Aaron’s view shaking a wonas hand was allowed.
Even if R’ Aaron didnt hold that way Rav Heneman definitely does.
So as to “Please cite any first-rate posek who disagrees with this strong position of the Chazon Ish, the Steipler and Rav Moshe amongst many others.””
so we have (at least) 2 who disagree with the “Strong position” of the Gedolim you mentioned.
Please note: you didnt ask for any posek who says lechatchila it is ok to run around shaking womans hand.
“I would still feel safer running into Bernie Madoff, than into OJ Simpson. If that makes me a racist”
That doesnt make you a racist. However choosing Jefferey Dahmer over my black coworker would deffinlty make you a racist. and not a very smart one.
Joseph
Even if ou are right its not yehareg val yaavar according to him.
In context its clear he means “better to” or “should” not “must”. As is clear from the follow up.
Joseph
I named you two!
R av Heinemann allowed it beshes hadchak and said his Rebbi R’ Aaron Kotler held the same.
You decided this was limited to doctors. I relistened to the recording I have here it is verbatim:
In a question answer forum:
Questioner: “Is shaking a womans’ hand allowed in a business setting?”
Rav Heineman “I will tell you what my Rebbe said “mdarf rich arose dreyen fun deim”
Quetioner “But it isn’t assur?”
Rav Heinemn “It is better not”
questioner “But biless breira…?”
Rav Heineman “Well you aren’t giving me a choice either”
(laughter)
Joseph
“You can check this with Rav Heinemann. “
I have! I asked him about shaking hands in general he said he was quoting his rebbe (R’ Aaron) “besser zich arois dreien fun deim” In other words it is better to avoid it but not assur. (He agreed this was his intention)
I have this all on tape
It is not out of the world to say a handshake isnt derech chibah. Obviously R’ Moshe disagrees (at least a few decades ago).
Wolfish
As mentioned before. Most shuls do not mind. There are some who do.
If you are not sure and cannot ask it is safe to assume they do not mind (outside of main shul). with a few exceptions as mentioned above.
In the main shul it is safe to assume that most do mind.
Joseph
“Please cite any first-rate posek who disagrees with this strong position of the Chazon Ish, the Steipler and Rav Moshe amongst many others.”
Rav Heineman beshem R’ Aaron.
Wolfish.
We are going in circles
“If the rule, by default, is…”
There is no default, they make the rule. It can be “nusach of the kahal” or “nusach of the shul” they can even have a giant dreidel near the amud with sefard/ashkenaz/eidot mizrach and wild card on the sides that determines the nusach. In their shul they make the rules.
Most do not care.
Some will.
If you are unsure, ask them.
Wolf
In their shul they make the rules. Theycould be makpid that only people with names starting with w can daven for the amud or that only a certain nusach can be davened.
In most shuls its safe to assume that outside of the main beis medrash they dont mind if ou daven another nusach or if a non-w name davens. (I wouldnt assume this for certain kehillos identified in the previous question)
So to answer your question “”do I even have to worry about it?”
unlike the starting letter of the person davening which I doubt anybody cares about, there are definitely some shuls that are makpid on this. Best is to ask.
Flatbusher
You gave a reasonable and accurate explanation in your OP
” …they just prefer the middle name”
period.
“Thank you, chaplaintzvi. While you may generously choose to be mapkid on this in your shul, that doesn’t really answer the question when such conditions are not specified. I could just as easily see someone being makpid on such a matter.”
Thats why I dont get your question. As you correctly point out in your follow up post. Some are makpid and some are not. without asking the gabaim/owner/rabbi of the shul, how can any of us know?
That said, most probably wouldnt mind. Usually you can sense the “flavor” of the shul that would mind. For example congregations that put a very heavy emphasis on mesorah probably would be makpid, such as some sephardim, some chasidim and deffinitly yekes (mesowrah in their case).
Though even those that are generally makpid,might not be makpid for mincha/maariv which has less of a “established” feel than shachris (lets not debate whther it should or shouldnt be that way).
Bottom line: ask.
Ca
thanks, I read a different piece
CA
“Sure” Of course not! It is impossible to be sure.
Lets back up.
whether raising the minumam wage is good or bad for the ecnomy, or for the lower class for that matter has been debated for decades. Leading economists are torn on the issue. I am not claiming to have the definite answer
In your OP you asked a question “I don’t understand the rationale behind raising the minimum wage, doesn’t that make things more expensive?”
I explained why your assumptions were an oversimplification. I am not saying raising the minum wage is necessarily a good idea. I was just explaing the other side, and pointing out why your assumptions in the OP were wrong even if yoru conclusion isnt necessarily wrong.
Incidently the forbes article you cite does not say what you said. You claim increasing the minimum wage would increase the price. This is not at all what Worstall says.
Do I get to do kisuei hadam whent hey shecht it?
CA
If it was as simple as that economists wouldnt debate the point.
most agree that a certain minumum wage is needed. The question becomes what if anything should it be tied to. So the answer to your question is it allowed the little people to survive I guess that can be called “helped”
Of course others disagree.
Ca
exactly, as I have been saying throughout. Economics is not as simple as you laid out in your OP. all I have been doing is answering the question you opened with.
Kfb
see this thread:
CA
See my first line here
For example
Lawrence Mishel, president of the Economic Policy Institute believes it benefits the economy as a whole
New?
It has existed for at least 20 years.
It is your responsibility to instill good lessons in your children, not the “important looking ads” It is their job to make money. May you both be succesful
wait
“I know some of you probably think he’ll make the greatest president in history”
really? Is there anyone besides him who thanks that?
I’m not convinced he thinks it. I’m failry certain it is all a publicity stunt
CA
“however what is legally wrong with marrying one’s sister (what i meant originally when i said blood relatives) “
In my opinion nothing.
Though I could hear an argument regarding public safety, to wvoid genetic anomalies that would result from inbreeding. However, I dont find this convincing
Ca
You answered your own question. “People means a group of people” ie not pets.
The comparison to pets (or children) is silly. There is no ” union” if both parties arent in agreememt, and there is no “parties” if one cannot consent
“does this mean that blood relatives can get married, a man with his his pet, or even polygamy (i want to honor my spouses’ memory)”
Lets say it does. (Though pet isnt comparable, and I dont think polygamy should be banned, so the only realistic one in you list that bothers me is blood relatives)
Feivel
Ithink this has been discussed ad nauseum, and there is no real information here. I was just curios what you believed regarding starts having life/daas.
Thank you for answering.
Dy too.