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erik55,
One mistake you make is saying “there are two indisputable facts”. In fact, you should say that “there are THREE indisputable facts”.
Your two were:
1. there will always be many drunks in shul on simchas torah
2. there will always be laytzanus by mussuf after wards
If those two assumptions are “givens”, as you claim, the third “indisputable fact” is:
3. there will always be people who defend sheim shmayim and protest this unacceptable laytzanus
Zevi:
Are you in Lakewood?
shtultzy, so which side of the argument are you taking?
Rebbe Rashab (5th Lubavitcher Rebbe) on Zionism:
Rabbi Aaronson:
The Lubavitcher Rebbe:
From all the writings of the Zionists we can clearly see that their main aim and activity is to create the impression among the Jewish People that the whole purpose of the Torah and the commandments is merely to strengthen national feeling. This theory can easily be adopted by the youth who regard themselves as instruments prepared for the fulfillment of the Zionist ideal. They regard themselves as completely liberated form Torah and the commandments. They think nationalism has replaced religion… When Herzl was in the Holy Land he was far removed from G-d. He OPENLY PROFANED THE TORAH BY ENTERING THE HOLY CITY ON THE SABBATH. HE WENT TO THE SITE OF THE SANCTUARY WHICH EVEN FROM A HUMAN POINT OF VIEW HE SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE, THUS OPENLY PROFANING THE SABBATH IN THE HOLY CITY, AND IN THE PLACE OF HIS TEMPLE, DOING EVIL IN THE SIGHT OF G-D. In order to influence our brethren in favor of the Zionist aspiration for an independent nation and government, they have no alternative but to lead the people astray from the path of of Torah and the commandments, or at least, to weaken their attachment as much as possible SO THAT NATIONALISM SHOULD PREVAIL OVER TORAH, BECAUSE IT IS KNOWN THAT THOSE ATTACHED TO THE TORAH ARE UNLIKELY TO CHANGE AND ACCEPT SOME OTHER FORM OF FAITH. It is surely clear that the Zionists not only are not approaching Judaism, but that they entirely destroy Jewish souls in intentionally TAKING AWAY FROM THEM EVEN THE HIDDEN AND MYSTICAL FEELING IN THEIR SOULS FOR THE TORAH AND THE COMMANDMENTS….
Sholem Ber Schneersohn
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“Regarding your question about the Zionists, allow me to respond briefly. Those who assist the Zionists will pay at the Day of Judgment, because they are causing the masses to sin. Therefore, whoever is on the side of G-d and his Torah shall not join with evildoers and not become attached to them. On the contrary, they should oppose them as much as possible.”
Your friend in truth, Shalom Dov Ber from Lubavitch
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The Rebbe also said:
“The Zionists were more clever than the others, since they exchanged nationalism for the Torah and commandments, as Mandelstam wrote publicly, that a Jew doesn’t have to be someone who keeps the commandments , but rather is a Zionist, even if he does not wear phylacteries and does not keep the Sabbath….”
I think I’ll change my ID to lessmodernorthodox, in honor of lesschumras.
torahis1:
Please. Calling us “holier than thou, super machmir, Taliban, judgemental, mean spririted” is hardly civil on your part. YOU HAVE MUCH INTROSPECTION TO DO ON YOUR PART>
I would definitely NOT suggest any books by Mr. Slifkin. Despite all the howls of the liberals, his had at least one book banned by the Gedolim for very good reason.
He actually believes the world is millions of years old.
Now all the liberals on the religious-left can come and defend him, defenseless as he is. (I’m sure if I criticized Moses Mendelsohn, some of the same crown would defend him too.)
torah1, she just wants you to do teshuva.
because pritzus is one of, if not the, biggest pitfalls of our generation. it NEEDS constant rehashing. and obviously the gedolim recognize this and rightfully stress this important topic.
talking about tznius is never too much, just like talking about loshon hora is never too much. if there was a big problem with many people being mchalel shabbos (like there is with people being mchalel tznius) I am certain our gedolim would endlessly be talking about the importance of shmiras shabbos.
btw loshon hora also gets many shiurim.
mariner – count me as having gone to that same yeshiva too. I too believe in shulchan orach. I too don’t think our religion is outdated. I too believe that no part of our Torah has become irrelevant. I too believe that tznius today is no less relevant that it was 2000 years ago.
Its too bad you don’t believe in these Torah values. Maybe its time for you to get off your liberal high horse and return to your religious roots.
yeah. And if you talk too much about Shmiras Shabbos, it is overkill and people will disreagrd Shabbos? And if you talk too much about loshon hora (as we constantly hear about it) is it overkill? And will people then talk loshon hora because it was talked about too much?
Why is it that some people are specifically allergic to hearing about tznius? Could it be that these are the very same folks who disregard tznius in public and don’t want to be called to the carpet about it? Don’t want it to be realized for the sin it is?
Naaaaaa…. couldn’t be.
illini07, I don’t particularly recall posting less-than-nice words about you, but surely can bring truth to those words of yours.
No needs for mechila from me, and presumably vice versa, if necessary.
Have you ever displayed any less-than-nice words to others on these boards? (Surely well-deserved, no doubt…)
PS The first paragraph is a joke.
Next time I’ll post it in Adur.
sheesh illini07. In all your time here, I NEVER noticed a sense of humor in you.
You are the only one who could take that on yeshivaworld so literally.
illini07 – Kosher ingredients only please.
This minhug is brought down is Sefer Minhagim (from the Rishonim). So it certainly is an old and recognized minhug.
cherrybim,
I accept your tochacha and publicly thank you for giving it to me.
But how should I have addressed her here?
PS Another thing I agree with you is that she is “a strange woman.”
cherrybim,
so kindly don’t be so afraid to quote the MB and S’O that was provided to you. you still haven’t done so because you are afraid of what it says.
saythatagain, were not teens here. and cherrybim has a very sordid and checkered history behind him. if any police detective investigations are needed around here, cherrybim will be suspect number one. perhaps because you are new here you are lucky enough to not be familiar with it.
cantoresq & berliner,
To be intellectually honest, please advise everyone here what exactly the TRUE meaning of Emunas Chachomim (and Daas Torah) mean to you.
AND also please cite a SUSTAINED example from a time in Jewish history that it was actually looked at and practiced in the way you describe it.
Mr & Mrs yossi yoshi, yes it is so babyish to use something over 3000 years old, like say the Torah, isn’t it? Well you’ve already made that point loud & clear with your sad commentary. Obviously (c’v) shulchan orach is “ignorant and not an intellectual comeback” in your intelligence, to quote you.
Oh, and btw you SLIPPED UP! You said “no intellectual comeback to provide US.” US! US yoshi & yossi. Sorry for blowing the cover.
ChanieE, When someone starts comparing tznius, which comes from the Torah, to the Taliban, burqas, etc. it sure shows what they think of the Torah.
Which posek disagrees with any of these very basics of tznius? And which of these core basics, pray tell, is even disagreeable about?
illini,
others have responded to you. I agreed with them and added my analogy of your views.
yossi,
can’t break the law. if the law is hes first, he gets saved first. even harboring thoughts of murder as you profess (out of anger, obviously, at the the law having been expressed to you) is treason, which will get you and your yoshi stringed up. so you two would never make it.
These are just the basics. Many poskim hold of additional stringencies than listed here.
yoshi – When you are on the Titanic, they’ll let you fend for your strong willed self, as the others are put on the rescue boats. Let us know the view from the bottom of the ocean.
jphone – Is a taxi driver uncourteous for not walking you to your door? Does your brother walk you to your door after dropping you off, after giving you a ride?
Darkened lounge? I dunno what your religious affiliation is, but if thats where dates are going in your circles…
Dignified Billiard rooms? Sure; and there are “dignified beaches” as well.
PYid – “the minhag of a large portion of the klal today” is to dress not tzniusdik also. So while minhugim are being added at an alarming rate, perhaps we can give it a marketing slogan of “A new minhug a day, will make the Yetzer Tov go away!”
jphone – In Brazil the minhug for politicians as well as most of the rest of the populace is to dress in a lot less than merely being sleeveless. Forget them not owning a jacket; do they know what pants looks like?
Jent1150 is absolutely right.
Illini07, Oh how offensive to bring up such “ancient” halachas that offend our 21st Century liberal American sensibilities! How controversial! What will the shkutzim think of us now? I think we all better hide under our desks (after quickly locking the offending gemorah or shulchan orach in the closet)! Maybe we can all simultaneously issue an apology for harboring such pre-historic (i.e. before the feminist movement corrected all our age-old errors) ideas.
smart, disregard #4 response. I thought you meant eating off each others plates (as you are eating.)
cherrybim,
the evidence is in the pudding. just skim thru your comment history.
Is motzi shem rah something YOU have an exemption from?
mdlevine, Emes! Though I haven’t seen anyone here be mechalek on the second type you mention.
willi, that is the contemporary liberal American thought-process, to divorce early and divorce often. But most divorces are avoidable and would have been better without a divorce. People divorce too quickly. Then they often end up in a worse state, with no prospects for a better mate than they gave up.
Of course there is a time for everything and sometimes it is unavoidable unfortunately.
mariner,
That is a brand new (to me) sub-category you mention. “Charidal”? Please elaborate.
Response:
1) Like you said in your follow-up, there is a tznius problem. Additionally playing pool is not an activity engaged in by a Ben Torah/Bas Yisroel.
2) Not tznius to talk to a female (non-family) about her clothes.
3) Opening door for your female date is a pure liberal American shtus. This “chivalry” business has no basis in Yiddishkeit.
4) Germs (and doesn’t pas for a Ben Torah/Bas Yisroel)
5) I misunderstood your point. I take no position.
Certain elements will call me a “fanatic.” I’ll happily take my punches for whats right.
A Chareidi is someone who fully follows the Torah.
The terrible lack of Kibud Av V’Eim in our generation is appalling.
Why not consider strengthening (everyone can) your Avodas Hashem?
Stop all the intermingling going on, would certainly be a good first step.
Anyone who has the AZUS to besmirch a Gadol B’Torah like HaRav Belsky Shlita, needs their head checked out.
Refer this individual to a kallah teacher (giver her a #)
1) Inappropriate for a Ben Torah/Bas Yisroel
2) Inappropriate for a Ben Torah/Bas Yisroel
3) Inappropriate for a Ben Torah/Bas Yisroel
4) Inappropriate for a Ben Torah/Bas Yisroel
5) Inappropriate for a Ben Torah/Bas Yisroel
Its a confusing world out there.
cherrybim,
My sincere apologies that you find the Chofetz Chaim’s take on tznius objectionable.
milchig,
Because if they say koiferdik things about the Torah, or say loshon hora, or attack Rabbonim, or a whole host of reasons it may be not allowed to even hear what they say.
This topic should be made sticky/pinned.
I agree wholeheartedly!
Everyone on these forums should such a Sefer.
Fighting pritzus is where there is a problem? No one can fight it since someone calls it untzniusdik?? Fighting pritzus is a mitzvah for every man AND woman.
rabbi yanky, google the following sentence and look at the first result:
One of the questions we are asked frequently is whether a comma should go before the conjunction “and” in a series of three or more items.
rabbi, it took mariner as long as it takes to hit CTRL-C (copy) from getitwriteonline.com and CTRL-V (paste) to TheYeshivaWorld.com.
cantor, that must be a rare case indeed.