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I seem to recall a story where the Brisker Rov zt’l said that a certain godol (I forget the details of which and regarding what issue) was being misinformed about the nature of a certain topic, and that the people surrounding him weren’t allowing anyone to approach him to tell him what the real story is.
DaMoshe: It was a question, not a statement. I know guys who Rav Shteinman encouraged to go to YCT; because he knew the alternative was they’d go to HUC.
Toi: What *would* impress you?
DaMoshe: If Rabbi Bender is “your rebbe”, why aren’t you following his Chareidi shittas, instead of being Modern Orthodox?
You can talk about how today’s Bnei Torah need a yeshua from the shmad of the Zionist State.
HaKatan: Please repost it.
Be happy; at least this thread is working.
TLIK: I don’t think anyone would promote wholesale plural marriage for everyone. Rather, for a select few capable (emotionally and financially) individuals. In fact, even when we still actively had plural marriage it was never for the masses. (Mathematically it simply couldn’t be. And the vast majority of both men and women wouldn’t even want it for themselves, for reasons you pointed out above.)
But if the Age Gap Theory, which seemingly has been accepted as real by a number of Rabbonim, is valid then a small number of rabbinically-approved plural marriages can quickly fix the issue of older women (girls) who ran out of having a potential marriage partner.
Who ever even heard of this Leybel guy, who doesn’t know what he’s talking about, as demonstrated in the above interview he gave with that irreligious media outlet.
“Fallacy of the converse.”
I love that term. Thank you. Posters constantly engage in that fallacy (“that’s a Christian concept” is often bandied-about by some who might think that you are “too frum”) and that’s a great short and suffice response.
Neharda: They can. In fact, the only reason it still applies today is not because of R”G. R”G put an expiration date on the Cherem. The Rabbonim at the time it expired decided to extend it. Similarly, they could now decide it outlived its usefulness and today Klal Yisroel needs plural marriage, again.
Menachem: By Ponovezh and Satmar it was also rare and unsanctioned. Why would you phrase it as if that description is only applicable to Lubavitch?
AAQ: I’ve been very clear that I oppose any mitzvah observant Jew from joining the chazer-treif IDF, with its rampant immorality and worse.
Additionally, regarding Torah scholars, aptitude is no prerequisite. Even if someone takes a full days worth of Torah study to master each pasuk in Chumash, and he does that regularly so that after a hundred days he “only” learnt one hundred psekukim and no more, he is just as worthy a Torah scholar as the guy sitting next to him who mastered a mesechta every week, including full fluency in Rashi, Tosfos and the Meforshim, and completed 15 mesechtas in the same time the first scholar finished a hundred pesukim of Chumash.
Regarding the other point, the Ran in Nedarim paskens that every Jew has an absolute right to live in Eretz Yisroel; so much so that he rules the Halacha of Dina D’Malchusa Dina is NOT applicable for Jews in Eretz Yisroel since the basis of Dina D’Malchusa Dina is that since the local King allows Jews to live in his country, the Jews must abide by his laws. But since in Eretz Yisroel every Jew has a natural G-d given right to live there, they don’t owe allegiance to the laws of the of the current ruling authority there, while we are in galus (and Eretz Yisroel today is in galus.)
AAQ: Should we read Herzl’s writings, too? Reputedly, is also powerful.
Marx, as well, from what I gather.
Menachem: Who is your Shomer? (Not his/her name, obviously; just their position and/or relationship to you.)
ZSK: If your recent borderline apikorsus posts that were approved is of any indication, the likely reason is the disapproved posts were on the other side of the border.
mdd1: Please share the names of any Gedolim, if any, who disagreed with the SR on the general issue of Zionism, aside from the issue of how or whether to interact with the State or vote in elections. And very specifically tell us which position he (or they) disagreed with.
One last thing: You said: “even by the religious most don’t value Torah enough to dedicate themselves to it, thereby leaving Chareidim as the main source for the tiny percent of Jews dedicated to Torah” – This a canard, lie and utter falsehood
It is the absolute truth. Even among the totality of Jews who are observant and religious, only a small minority dedicate their lives to Torah study.
Saying “it is unfair that Chareidim are exempt from the army” is virtually synonymous as saying “it is unfair that the Torah scholars are exempt from the army”. As it happens, a large proporion of those who dedicate their lives to full time Torah study, are Chareidim. And Chareidim, and full time Torah learners, are small minority of the Jewish People.
The Jewish People need their units of dedicated Torah students. There are too few of such people, as it is. That Chareidim volunteer and are over-represented in this class of people, is something to be commended. And sought more of. We need more Jews dedicated to full-time Torah study.
ZSK: it is super tone-deaf and insensitive to call for a day of prayer to avoid army service in the middle of a war
Absolutely not. It is an absolute obligation to daven to Hashem that you not be drafted into the IDF; just as much as it was our absolute obligation to daven to not be drafted into the Russian Czar’s army under the Cantonist system. I already explained why above.
My point to ard was very simple: Gedolim often aren’t the ones writing Pashkevilim or the letters
Yeah, yeah, you needn’t repeat yourself. We understand quite well your point. Namely, that you believe that Gedolei Yisroel are a bunch of foolish bufoons who blindly sign unto statements that lying big shots fool them with, being the Gedolim are unable and unwilling to seek the truth before giving their John Hancocks.
My point to DaasYochid (and later on to you) was my above statement about tone-deaf actions, only expanding it to include a general explanation of the resentment toward the Charedi public in general
Jews have been “resented” throughout history. Pharoh resented us. Amalek resented us. The Assyrians resented us. The Babylonians resented us. The Yevonim resented us. The Crusaders resented us. The Spanish resented us. The Cossacks resented us. The Christian Church resented us. The Germans resented us. The Reform “Jews” resented us. The list goes on.
The IDF does not devalue Torah learning.
They most certainly do. The value immorality, as the scandals throughout their history with women has clearly exemplified.
I sense an implied accusation that I don’t consider תורתו אומנותו to be important
I made no such accusation about you. Please improve your reading comprehension before mindlessly rambling and spouting nonsense. I said that the IDF does not value תורתו אומנותו.
What the IDF does value is their choir (Lakat Tzahal), their orchestra (Tizmorot Tzahal), their band, their honor guard (Mishmor Hakovod), their “soldiers” who provide entertainment, their filmmaking “soldiers”, their photography division, their sports teams, their radio and media group (Galei Tzahal), and their theatre group.
The IDF drafts into their army people to “serve” as their entertainers, theatre production, filmmaking, orchestra, choirs, etc.
But the IDF did not, does not and will not ever draft soldiers to serve in תורתו אומנותו.
They need those personnel serving as media and radio announcers, in their bands and choirs, as entertainers and filmmakers.
Torah doesn’t cut it.
Now go demand that they disband their units serving as entertainers, theatre production, filmmaking, orchestras and choirs and send them into combat. After all, they need to be defending Israel from the Arabs.
AAQ: Accepting protection and not paying for it is against halakha.
The Chareidim never asked for their protection. They lived in Eretz Yisroel long long before the Zionists existed… and they’ll still be living there long long after the Zionists disappear into the dustbin of history.
I can understand Jews from Old Yishuv complaining, but most of the charedim came to EY when Zionists “were already in the Land”.
Chareidim were established in Eretz Yisroel hundreds of years before the Zionists. Only afterwards did Zionists come (with their tuma and secularism) to the land that they then defiled. Sure, more Chareidim came later, as well. But many Zionists also came even later. But before Zionism even existed, let alone Zionists moved to the land, Chareidi communities were well established in Eretz Yisroel from at least the time of the Baal Shem Tov and the Vilna Gaon.
So, what rights do they have to complain? Just move to Iran or Russia, explain to them that you are anti-Z, and live happily thereafter.
The Zionst-come-latelys can move to Iran, Russia and Poland. Zionists already live in large numbers in Germany and Thailand. More of them can pack their bags and move to those lovely places.
I want my children to be safe, but they also have a need for some degree of privacy.
What conceivable activity on children’s cellphone screens could be private?
akuperma: The filibuster is anti-democratic. In a democracy a majority of the legislature should be able to pass laws without a minority having veto.
The Gedolei Yisroel explicitly agreed with the Satmar Rebbe regarding the Zionist issue and the State, overall. The *only* exception was some disagreed how to deal with the State post facto, after it existed. But, in principle, they all agreed with him.
SCA explicitly was chartered to *not* deal with any religious issues. And, still, RJBS opposed it.
And all of the above is before, and in addition to, the fact that it is the Zionists who triggered and caused the conflict with the Arabs and Islamic world over the last hundred years. Something the Torah world was always opposed to, from the very inception of Zionism.
So the Zionists caused a hundred years of wars and terrorism — and then demand those who opposed them in creating these conflicts to then join them in the very conflicts they caused.
ZSK:
That Chilonim don’t accept תורתו אומנותו as a valid exemption is absolutely no reason anyone shouldn’t utilize that exemption, regardless of Chilonim not accepting it.
By the way, Chilonim do accept the “soldiers” in the IDF who are part of the IDF choir (Lakat Tzahal) or the orchestra (Tizmorot Tzahal) or the band or the honor guard (Mishmor Hakovod), entertainment positions in the IDF, filmmaking , photography, sports, or the radio and media (Galei Tzahal), the IDF theatre group (Teatron Tzahal) and other non-critical, non-combat units.
Yet, תורתו אומנותו is less important than to have entertainers, theatre production, filmmaking, orchestra, choirs, etc., who are not fighting in combat. Torah study, of course, is being “parasitical”.
The mathematical reality is that only a tiny tiny percent of Jews opt out due to Torah. The fact that the majority aren’t religious r”l altogether and even by the religious most don’t value Torah enough to dedicate themselves to it, thereby leaving Chareidim as the main source for the tiny percent of Jews dedicated to Torah, is irrelevant to the fact that means the Chareidim need to mostly be exempt.
And, aside from all of the above, and as DaasYochid alluded to above, there’s every good reason even for people who are *not* dedicated to full time Torah study to make absolutely certain that they never join the treif IDF. The IDF is well reknown and infamous for its rampant immorality as well as rabid anti-religious fervor, that in order to self-preserve one’s very basic Judaism any observant Jew should stay far away from the IDF.
And all this is even before getting into the facts that the IDF is not short soldiers that is causing them to lose battles or wars due to a lack of combat personnel. This fact was well admitted to by multiple to IDF personnel before the current war. They don’t want Chareidim because they need them; they want Chareidim in order to make them no longer Chareidi.
And after the filibuster is gone, expand the judiciary by increasing the number of district judges fourfold and increasing the appeals circuits threefold (by adding new circuits and/or additional judges to the existing appeals circuits).
And appoint all those new judges to fill these new judgeships in rapid fire form in the Senate, by altering the parliamentary rules if necessary. Perhaps even expand the Supreme Court to twenty three judges.
End the filibuster.
Let Republicans modify half the laws on the books and legally destroy the corrupt government systems so much that it would be close to impossible to rebuild the nearly hundred year old system built since Franklin Roosevelt’s terrible “New Deal”, for at least another quarter to half a century, even after Democrats have another trifecta control (whenever that might be.)
ZSK: Were glad you clarified that you think the Gedolei HaDor are simpletons and puppets who simply and merely “rubber stamp” whatever untruths some big shots put on papers in front of them, since you believe they are too stupid to know the truth that intelligent men such as yourself easily know.
Square: Being that you’re bigger than the Satmar Rebbe ztvk’l and you can easily shlug him up, I think you should put his Sefer V’Yoel Moshe in Cherem and have them discarded anywhere they are.
By the way, the Tosfos Yom Tov attributed Tach V’Tat (aka the Khmelnytsky Massacres of 100,000 Yidden in 1648-1649) to talking in shul.
Now, you, Square can shlug up the Tosfos Yom Tov and tell him (and throw out his Seforim) “That explanation MIGHT have been logical, if, at the time of Tach V’Tat there were no Jews abandoning Shabbat, and no Jews eating forbidden foods,
and no Jewish atheists, and no Jews intermarrying with non-Jews and no Jews doing much worse things than merely and simply talking in shul.”Everyone was opposed to participating in the Synagogue Council of America. Even Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik was explicitly opposed. Certainly the WZO isn’t any better than the SCA.
DaasYochid: I’m still not saying that. I’m just saying that if someone is going to reject the Gedolim who pasken that it is forbidden to participate in the Zionist Organization voting, with the argument that it is worthwhile getting some money out of them even if that means partaking in a heretical anti-Torah entity, *at least* keep in mind what I pointed out in my previous comment.
With that being said, I’ll add in another important factor. The EH is now running for the second time; they won some seats in the WZO in the last election. So we have data to judge their effectiveness insofar as to what they claim to be achieving. And the data from the WZO shows that over the last term in office the Torah community received paltry and negligible additional benefits compared to whatever they received prior to the existence of EH.
If you had the opportunity to vote out Hitler ym”s, you wouldn’t?
(I’m not expressing an opinion about WZO elections, just that your analogy is inapt)
DaasYochid: The analogy is apt, even if I’m not necessarily going to disagree now with your above point, because when you register yourself as a member of the Nazi party, in order to qualify for voting in the Nazi party primary, with the intention (as you make the case for) of voting out Hitler ym’s, you know that Nazism is evil and murderous. You’re doing what you’re doing in hoping to make some lemonade out of the terrible lemons. And you are always very conscious that this is the only point of that endeavor.
So too here, even if you buy into the argument of voting in the Zionist Organization elections, the analogy is ultimately meant to implore you to always keep in mind what a evil murderous regime they are, even as you hold your nose and vote in the ostensible dream of cashing in a little gelt to squeeze out of them.
If you lived in Germany in the 1930s, would you vote in the Nazi party elections, since the Nazis are the party in power and the Nazi primaries determine the German government leadership?
Yeshivish: About ten years ago they did have a permanent link.
Simcha613: Since you are clearly greater and wiser than the greatest Torah sages of our generation in the form of the collective wisdom of the Gedolei HaDor on the saintly Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah, you should fire all those Talmidei Chachonim and replace them with people who know better than them (such as yourself) on when to establish a day of prayer.
This isn’t the first time. He had the link already, for awhile , about ten years ago.
I thought it was Donald Trump who did that.
Treif, apikorsus.
Baruch: He is not taking Russia’s side nor is he threatening to leave NATO. Stop drinking all the drivel and lies you’re being fed by the New York Times, Washington Post, CNN, CBS and the rest of the false stories they peddle every day.
President Trump has been an Oheiv Yisroel long before he ever entered politics. And ever since he entered, both during his first term and his current term, he has repeatedly proven over and over that he is the most pro-Jewish and pro-Israel in the history of the United States.
ZSK: No one needs your patience. The bottom line is even if someone is working or otherwise not a learner or Torah scholar, there is still every reason in the world that he absolutely should not join the Zionist army. Under any circumstances. Staying away from them isn’t contingent on being in full time Torah study.
Donald Trump has been an Oheiv Yisroel his entire life. Even long before he ever entered politics. As was his father Fred. And he’s been the most pro-Jewish president in US history.