ujm

philosopher: You keep repeating that same word out mantra. We are in golus. We’ve been in golus for 2,000 long years. *Everywhere* in golus we WILL experience antisemitism and anti-Jewish hatred, including of the violent variety. This will not change until Moshiach comes. Not in America, not in Canada, not in Australia and not in the Zionist “paradise” of the State of Israel, that falsely claims to be a Jewish safetynet, all the while Jews under Zionist sovereignty experience more violence and death than Jews not under Zionist sovereignty.

Yes, there was violence against Jews in the Arab lands throughout our long history. Just as there was everywhere else. But the violence under the Arabs pre-Zionism was far far less than elsewhere that Jews lived in. How many times does this *fact* need repeating?

And anyone who is honest and not willfully blind about Jewish history knows that Arab/Muslim violence against Jews went from occurring infrequently and sporadically pre-Zionism to becoming virtually non-stop, systematic, frequent and extremely violent ever since zionism.

I ask you with the greatest respect to please open your eyes and not allow feelings of pride in the State blind you from these historical and indisputable facts.

Menachem: That theory doesn’t add up. Large numbers of Jews lived *in* Arab/Muslim countries for over 1,000 years. Yet the “significant antisemitism” started exactly when the Zionists were gaining traction to take over Palestine. Before that relations between the Arabs and the Jews living in their countries were *mostly* peaceful. Unlike our European/Christian hosts.

philosopher: The quotes from Rav Hunter are verbatim what he said in a speech and was published during his lifetime in Agudas Yisroel’s official publication “Jewish Observer”, in 1979.

Rav Hunter was one of the most fierce anti-Zionists. This is very well known. He learnt by Rabbi Kook for a few years as a young man and even had a picture of him in his Succah for a few years, but he took it down as some of Rabbi Kook’s shittos became better known. Rav Hunter never cited anything from Rabbi Kook in Chaim Berlin, where he was Rosh Yeshiva nor did Rav Hunter ever quote Rabbi Kook in any of his Seforim, including Pachad Yiztchok.

What I quoted above from Rav Avigdor Miller zt’l is his own words, that he published in one of his Seforim. It has sold hundreds of thousands of copies, and you can buy it today in almost any Seforim store.

“<i>The Zionist leaders together with the Reform “rabbis” aided substantially in the destruction of the European Jews.”

In July 1938 President Roosevelt convened the Evian Conference to consider the problem of Jewish refugees. At that time a German offer was made to release Jews at $250 per person. The Jewish Agency, headed by Golda Meir, decided to ignore the offer.

At this conference, the delegation from the Jewish Agency made no effort to influence the United States or any of the 32 other participating nations to open their gates to admit German Jews.

Rabbi Weismandl sent urgent and impassioned appeals for small funds to stave off the deportation of thousands. The assimilationists and Zionists of Switzerland and other neutral countries and of the rich countries and of the rich communities overseas refused his request.

It was because European Jews put their trust in atheistic Zionist leaders that these leaders everywhere became the lackeys of the Nazis in all the Ghettos. They were the machinery, which served efficiently in the task of keeping the Jews docile and of persuading and coercing them to be sent off to their deaths.</i>

Which parts of the above direct verbatim words of Rav Miller zt’l do you not understand that he is laying blame for what occurred to the Jews in the Holocaust directly at the feet of the Zionists? His language could not have been any clearer.

No one ever said that Muslims have historically always treated Jews nicely and peacefully. This is a strawman.

AAQ: This issue certainly does have current implications for the wife/future wife. She may have a strong preference who she wants to be married to after Techiyas Hameisim. This is a valid concern.

* [The Torah] forbids us to strive for the reunion or possession of the land by any but spiritual means
Rabbi S. R. Hirsch

* Not via our desire did we leave the land of Israel, and not via our power will we come back to the land of Israel.
Rabbi S.D. Schneerson

* [Zionists] want a state in order to make Jews into heretics.
Rav Chaim Soloveichik

* The Zionists have attacked the center point of Judaism.
Rav Velvel Soloveichik

Before the Neila prayer on Yom Kippur Rabbi Avraham Yoshe Freund of Mansod said:

“It is not because they are Zionists that they are evildoers. It is because they are evildoers that they are Zionists.”

Rav Aharon Roth said:

“It is a miracle that these evildoers don’t command everyone to put on tefillin. It is possible that were they to do it, G-d forbid, it may be forbidden to put them on.”

The Chazon Ish said:

“If it is hard to understand the whole matter of the Golden Calf, by seeing the matter of the State, one can understand it. The matter of the State is similar to the Golden Calf”

Rav Elchonon Wasserman said:

“It is certain as the sun shines that the Land will vomit the Zionists out, because the Land is the Palace of the King….I don’t say this either to curse or to bless, but because these are things which are written in the Torah and which will take place.”

Rav Chaim Soloveitchik said:

“The Zionists aren’t taking Jews away from Judaism in order to have a State, THEY NEED A STATE IN ORDER TO TAKE JEWS AWAY FROM JUDAISM”

Rav Yechezkel Shraga Halberstam said:

“When a Jew recites ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord your G-d, the Lord is One’ he should have in mind rejecting all idolatry in the world, including Zionism, which is also idolatry.”

Rav Yissachar Dov of Belz said:

” There could be, before the arrival of Mashiach, that the Satan should succeed, and the evildoers should get a State in the Land of Israel. Their state would be a big danger for every Jew in material and spiritual matters.”

The heilige Chofetz Chaim said:

“In my opinion it is clear that the Zionists are from the offspring of Amalek.”

Rav Yitzchak Zev Soloveitchik (Reb Velvel) said:

“How can the little rabbis and heads of yeshivas take upon themselves the determination of things dealing with life and death? It is obvious that the partition will bring with it the anger and hostility of the Arabs and other nations of the world. This whole thing touches on the shedding of blood. HOW DO THEY HAVE THE ARROGANCE TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS DEALING WITH LIFE AND DEATH?

He also said:

“The Agudah is nothing, just money.” Rabbi Moshe Leib Diskin once said: “The rabbis of the generation should gather together and issue a writ of excommunication against the Zionists and eject them from the Jewish People, and make decrees against their bread and wine, and to forbid marrying with them, JUST LIKE OUR SAGES DID WITH THE SAMARITANS.”

Rav Shlomo Zalman Eherenreich said:

“The Zionists brought us to the Holocaust. It is well known that it was possible to redeem Jews from the Nazis with money, and save many hundreds of thousands of Jews in Hungary from the fire. THE ZIONIST LEADERS WHO NOW SIT IN GOVERNMENT PREVENTED IT!”

Rav Shaul Brach of Kashoa said:

“Before thinking up the idea of Zionism, Herzl wanted all Jews to convert to Christianity. When he was laughed at, he developed the second idea which was able to have more effect, since thousands of Jews began to believe they could be Jews without the Torah of Judaism.”

“I am also surprised at the leaders of the Agudah who want thousands of Jews to move to Eretz Israel. How can they ignore the welfare of their children, since there is no other place on earth where there is so much heresy and sectarianism as in the Holy Land in our day.”

Rabbi Yitchok Hutner Z”L:

Sadly, even in our own circles, the mold for shaping public opinion lies in the hands of the State of Israel. An appropriate example of this dangerous process of selectively “rewriting” history may be found in the extraordinary purging from the public record of all evidence of the culpability of the forerunners of the State in the tragedy of European Jewry, and the sub-situation in is place of factors inconsequential to the calamity which ultimately occurred.

To cover its own contribution to the final catastrophic events, those of the State in a position to influence public opinion circulated the notorious canard that Gedolei Yisroel were responsible for the destruction of many communities because they did not urge immigration. This charge is, of course, a gross distortion of the truth, and need not be granted more dignity than it deserves by issuing a formal refutation. However, at the same time as the State made certain to include this charge as historical fact in every account of the war years, it successfully sought to omit any mention of its own contribution to the impending tragedy. While the State omitted in its own version of history is the second of the above-mentioned new directions in recent Jewish history. It is that phenomenon which we must now examine.

Dofi; Your comments are viewed the same as how we Jews look at Nazi’s critique of Jews.

smerel: That’s a fair answer to the question in the OP. You are saying that it is worth sacrificing the lives of the hostages in order to destroy Hamas.

philosopher: The State of Israel is part of golus. Jews aren’t safe there either (not that you need anyone to tell you that; you can simply read the news.) The problem lies when Zionists falsely claim that their State is the answer to golus and that their State is a safetynet for Jews around the world, when it is exactly the opposite.

And is it Gedolei Yisroel zt’l such as Rav Avigdor Miller zt’l, Rav Yitzchok Hunter zt’l, the Satmar Rebbe zt’l and many others who publicly stated that the Zionists bear guilt for the Holocaust.

Yes, the anti-Jewish terrorism *is* a result of Zionism. Prior to Zionism, which began around 1898 when Chief Zionist Theodore Herzl ym’s called to take over Palestine and thereby riled up the Arabic world, the Arab/Muslim world prior to Zionism (note that 1898 is an earlier date than the Zionists establishing their state in ’48) was much more Jewish-friendly and far less violent than the Christian/European world. Sure there were sporadic incidents of Arab/Muslim violence against Jews over the centuries; after all we are in Golus and there is NOWHERE to escape antisemitism until Moshia cubes. But the Arab/Muslim violence in 1,000 years leading up to the Balfour Declaration in 1917 was nothing even remotely close in quantity to the regular cycles of murder and genocide initiated against us Jews by the Christians in Europe, with their regularly scheduled blood libels, expulsions, Inquisitions, Crusades, Ghettos, annual Christmas-eve call to violence by their priests and bishops (hence Nitul Nacht), and, of course leading up to last but very much not least, their murder of six million Jews in the Holocaust in just this concluding century that our own grandfathers and grandmothers experienced and told all of us about.

No, the Arabs and Muslims didn’t even come close to out -competing the Christians and Europeans. Our Jewish brothers and sisters living under Arab and Muslim rule did much much much better (until Zionism existed) than us Jews living under Christian and European rule.

dkbmd: Your point is well taken. Wouldn’t it be equally applicable regarding Shmira?

We see how great Zionism and the State of Israel is. The great and powerful IDF protects Jews from our enemies. Whereas all over the world outside our great Zionist homeland paradise, Jews are being slaughtered every day by the dozens, whereas in the State under the protection of the IDF, only six Jews were murdered this week.

Previous terrorist attacks under the IDF’s watch, like 1,200 people on October 7 and other previous terrorists attacks killing Jews in our great and powerful State, were exceptions. But if you count the figures since the holiest date in the calendar, May 14, 1948 when our holy Zionist state was founded, through today, you will see the figures clearly show that Jews are safest in the areas where the IDF controls the “security”, versus other countries where many Jews live in, such as the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Iran, Morocco, France, Russia, and Argentina, where statistics show that since 1948 many many more Jews are maimed, murdered and die in wars than in the Great State of Israel.