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The fight against Chasidus was also very similar to the fight (Kovner Rov, etc.) against the Mussar Movement (Rav Yisroel Salanter, Slabodka, Novardik, etc.). The fights are long over. The Torah velt has long accepted the Mussar Movement and Chasidus. They are all part and parcel and one in unison.
The old fight against the Chasidim is the same idea as the old fight against Rambam and the old fight against Rav Yonosan Eybeschutz.
The entire Torah world eventually accepted the Rambam, the Chasidim and Rav Yonosan Eybeschutz.
WB Dr. Pepper. It’s always a pleasure to see you again during your brief interludes here.
Like earlier mentioned, there are virtually no “misnagdim” today; and this has been the case for the last 100+ years. Any so-called misnaged today is simply a Litvak who holds by Litvish shittos; and he’s no more misnaged against Chasidish shittos than he’s against Serfardish or Teimanish shittos. The Litvaks daven Nusach Ashkenaz, the Chasidish daven Nusach Sefard and the Sefardish daven Nusach Spanish & Portuguese or Edot HaMizrach and Mizrachim daven Edot HaMizrach and Teimanin daven Nusach Baladi or Shami and Persians daven Nusach Paras. And all of them have unique shittos and minhagim of their own. None are against the others.
Yankel: You are again a prevaricator. I brought proofs from Talmidei Chachomim and even from the Zionists themselves, where their courts and judges in Israel condemned Kastner.
YYA: No idea what you’re hallucinating. It has no relevance to anything I said.
Zionist Judge Halevi, in the Kastner Trial, condemned Kastner for “having sold his soul to the Devil”.
Yankel: The overwhelming evidence condemning Kastner does not rely on Eichmann ym”s. It is so overwhelming that even Kastner’s own Zionist courts in Israel condemned him as a traitor to the Jewish people.
YYA: Your point is redundant. The Yidden in Chutz La’aretz also trust in Hashem. And in only Hashem. No one else.
Which circle of kids from which kinds of families are using this term?
I know, right? People like Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Ahron Kotler, Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinski, Rav Shimon Shkop, Rav Yisrael Salanter, The Ben Ish Chai, The Rogatchover Gaon, the Alter of Slabodka, Rav Elchonon Wasserman, Rav Meir Shapiro, The Chasam Sofer, The Vilna Gaon, The Baal Shem Tov, The Noda B’Yehuda, The Pele Yoetz, The Rema, The Mechaber, The Rosh, The Rif, Rabbeinu Tam and even Rashi didn’t live in Eretz Yisroel.
You should have been around to correct them all.
YYA: You feel safer there, by comparison, despite October 7 and constant murders, maiming and attacks on Jews every few months to year or two for the last 77+ years?
War isn’t a video game.
More from “To the Butcher II”, Life Magazine, December 5, 1960.
The Setting: Argentina, 1957. Eichmann was living freely as “Ricardo Klement.” Interviewer: Willem Sassen, a Dutch journalist.
”This Dr. Kastner… was a young man about my age, an ice-cold lawyer and a fanatical Zionist. He agreed to help keep the Jews from resisting in the deportation camps if I would close my eyes and let a few hundred or a few thousand young Jews emigrate to Palestine. It was a good bargain.”
Eichmann said that he and Kastner shared a similar ideology: that the “masses” were less important than the “elite.”
Eichmann wrote that Kastner was willing to sacrifice the old, the assimilated, and the “weak” Jews to save the “best biological material”—the young pioneers who would build Israel.The Quote: “For Kastner, as for me, it was a question of the best biological material.”
He stated that Kastner knew exactly where the trains were going (Auschwitz). Eichmann wrote: “We trusted each other perfectly… With his great polish and reserve he (Kastner) would have made an ideal Gestapo officer himself.”
Direct Quotation: “He (Kastner) agreed to help keep the Jews from resisting deportation—and even keep order in the collection camps—if I would close my eyes and let a few hundred or a few thousand young Jews emigrate illegally to Palestine. It was a good bargain.”
Direct Quotation: ”While we talked he would smoke one aromatic cigarette after another, taking them from a silver case and lighting them with a little silver lighter.”
Yankel: Why do you insist upon lying? I never called Hamas anything of the sort.
***MODS***
PLEASE REVIEW THE LAST TWO POSTS IN THIS THREAD. TYThe memoirs of Adolf Eichmann ym”s were published in 1960 by Life Magazine. Eichmann described Kastner with a chilling “respect.” He called Kastner an “ice-cold lawyer” and a “fanatic Zionist.” This is quote from Eichmann’s memoirs:
“I believe that Kastner would have sacrificed a thousand or a hundred thousand of his blood to achieve his political goal… He agreed to help keep the Jews from resisting in the deportation camps if I would close my eyes and let a few hundred or a few thousand young Jews emigrate to Palestine. It was a good bargain.”
Eichmann essentially confirmed the prosecution’s theory: Kastner (who regularly drank cognac and played cards with Eichmann) traded the orderliness of the masses (“biological waste” in Eichmann’s eyes) for the “best biological material” (the pioneers/Zionists).
Yaakov: In מושיען של ישראל Rabbi Shlomo Yaakov Gelbman points out that Kastner and the SS officers (Kurt Becher and Dieter Wisliceny) formed a genuine camaraderie. The book emphasizes that they drank together, played cards, and socialized while Jews were burning. The book highlights Kastner’s post-war testimony at Nuremberg on behalf of Kurt Becher and others like Hermann Krumey as the ultimate proof of his betrayal. It says that Kastner testified for Becher not because of a “promise,” but because they were “partners in crime.” It says that Kastner needed Becher to survive and remain free so that their shared secrets (and potentially shared loot) would not be exposed.
The book mentions that Kastner and the Zionist establishment in Palestine actively blocked or sabotaged rescue attempts that did not lead to Palestine. It says the Zionists believed that saving Jews to send them to America or Romania would not help build the State of Israel. They needed “Chalutzim” (pioneers) for the state, not refugees for the Diaspora.
The book brings evidence that the Va’ada (Kastner’s committee) had access to vast sums of money from the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee (“The Joint”) and other sources. It states Kastner refused to use this money to bribe border guards or finance underground railroads into Romania (a safer option for the masses). The book points out that Kastner feared that “disorderly” mass escapes would anger Eichmann and jeopardize the “VIP Train.”
It suggests that while the “Blood for Goods” (Trucks for Jews) offer was on the table, the Zionist leadership did not genuinely try to raise the money or fake the negotiations to stall the slaughter, because they were fixated on the smaller, surer “Zionist” victory of the train.
מושיען של ישראל concludes that Kastner was a traitor who sacrificed the 450,000 Jews of the Hungarian provinces to save a few thousand “Zionist assets” and his own family.
That should have read Rav Ahron Schechter who together with Rav Malkiel Kotler, Rav Elya Ber Wachtfogel, the two Satmar Rebbes and other Litvish and Chasidish Gedolim together orgnaized a protest in Manhattan against the State of Israel.
YYA: You’re confusing me with Rabbi Herschel Schachter. He’s the one who wrote in defense of the convcit you’re referring to. I never wrote anything supporting him.
Yankel: There’s no contradiction.
Taking out a small boat is harder than taking out a big boat.
Yankel: I’m not aware of that being the case. On what basis do you assert that?
It appears unlikely as just ten years ago Rav Malkiel Kotler, Rav Elya Ber Wachtfogel, Rav Ahron Schter and other Litvish Gedolim together with both Satmar Rebbes and other Chasidishe Gedolim together joined at a public protest against the State of Israel in Manhattan when they were trying, again, to forcibly draft Bnei Torah.
Yankel: Katner’s defense of Nazi mass murderers AFTER the war in the Nuremberg Trials is quite well known and a matter of the historical record. He was even condemned for it in Israeli courts (the Judge Levy trial).
I definitely recognize you are not defending Kastner.
But aside from the train, read read about the Vrba-Wetzler Report. Kastner knew IN ADVANCE what Eichmann and the Nazis were planning to do to the Hungarian Jews, deport them to Aushwitz and gas them to death, and he yet refused to publicly disclose that information to the Hungarian Jews so that they would otherwise refuse to voluntarily go on the trains to Aushwitz.
mdd: Get over it. In the last one hundred years there might have been only ten “Misngdim”; they virtually do not exist and haven’t for over a century.
The Chazon Ish most absolutely was not a misnaged; he was certainly a full Litvak and not Sephardic, not Chasidic and not Teimani. Of course he had different shittos than Sephardim, Chasidim, and Teimanim. But in no way, shape or form was he ever “against” Sephardim, Chasidim, or Teimanim.
Despite any fantasies you might have.
Shimon: somejew obviously means he davens for the Hamas sodiers defeat and destruction.
Hopefully you do as well.
What is a free ??? ?? ????
Yankel: From what I know (not being the expert) I think that;s accurate. Others simply didn’t consider him to be a godol.
Yankel:
Kastner’s treachery in selling to the Nazis 500,000+ Hungarian Jewish lives in absolutely indefensible.
And what do you have to say about the fact that Kastner was STILL defending Nazis AFTER the war was over, and there were no more even fake excuses for it?
LerntminTayrah:
The Chazon Ish held the Imrei Emes in awe. When the Imrei Emes visited Bnei Brak, the Chazon Ish pushed through the crowds to catch a glimpse of him.
The Chazon Ish had a famously close friendship with the Beis Yisrael (Rav Yisrael Alter). The Beis Yisrael (who was younger) would frequently visit the Chazon Ish’s home. They would speak for hours in private. The Beis Yisrael, in turn, sent his elite Chasidim to discuss Halacha with the Chazon Ish.
The Chazon Ish famously said about the Belzer Rebbe: “He looks like a Malach of Hashem.” When the Belzer Rebbe arrived in Eretz Yisroel after the Holocaust, the Chazon Ish went out of his way to honor him, signaling to the Torah world that this man was royalty. There is a famous account where the Chazon Ish sent a student to observe the Belzer Rebbe’s Tisch. When the student reported back that the Rebbe sat in silence for hours and barely ate, the Chazon Ish remarked, “That is how a Rebbe eats.”