ujm

Chazal and the Rishonim tell us why the white dress dance was discontinued and may not be done in our days. Are you seriously suggesting reinitiating that despite this?

Aseh: Why is there even any hava mina that there might be a right to kill a mamzer, any more than to kill a non-mamzer?

We should return to how we made Shidduchim in prewar Europe and prewar Mizrachi world. It was done, more or less, unchanged for thousands of years. We should never have changed to the current American model, large portions of which were emulated from the contemporary non-Jewish world.

N0m: I didn’t say that he didn’t understand. I said it took him an awfully long time to understand a small amount. In my theoretical example it was 10 hours to understand half a Daf. But understand it he did.

By the way, even if he wouldn’t understand it, which wasn’t the example I earlier gave, he still gets full credit of Limud HaTorah for all his effort. As much as a Masmid who put in an equal amount of effort and time, and came away understanding 100x more and 100x better.

A Yeshiva or a Kollel is better off with the Talmid who spends 10 hours a day seriously learning, even though he only finishes half a Daf per 10 hours, than a Talmid who spends 2 hours a day seriously learning, but he fully understands inside out 5 Blatts every 2 hours, but then spends another 8 hours a day schmoozing, socializing or catching up with what’s going on in the world.

Can one call himself frum if he says motzi shem ra or loshon hora?

Real Learners do not necessarily need to learn or know a lot. A learner who spends 10 hours a day cracking his head to try to understand less than half an Amud, and after the 10 hours has only a very basic idea of what he learnt, and he does this every day of the week, year after year, is a much better Yeshivab or Kollel student than the guy sitting next to him who spends two hours a day learning five new blatts with all the meforshim, and he successfully knows it inside and out and is capable of acing any test with flying colors, but spends the next eight hours of his days battling about sports, politics and whatever else.

Everyone must get a Rov.

Young male African-Americans engage in more risky behavior than young male Caucasian Americans. And their death rate is higher. There are statistics to demonstrate that.

Young gentile males engage in risky behavior far more so than young Jewish males. And their death rate is higher. There are no statistics demonstrating this is true or false. But common sense, living in the real world and paying attention to what’s going on will make this clear to any clear eyed, unbiased, observer. Even if he can’t prove it with official surveys and stats.

In Israel the young non-Chareidim face a higher death rate in the armed services, something the Chareidim serve in far lesser numbers.

For these things that no statistics exist for sub-population groups we can argue both sides back and forth with no clear proof who is correct. You might argue there’s no statistical proof that the Amish suffer any less motor vehicle deaths than the national (or state) statistics for the population at large. Or that conservative religious Muslims suffer no less alcohol poisoning than the general statistics for the population at large.

Spare us the falsehoods from your Footsteps board members. The OTD claims presented have no basis in reality.

As far a the general age gap issue, I’m not sure you can be effective in convincing Litvish boys to marry younger or convince them to marry older girls (than they currently do) unless and until the Yeshivish oilem adopts the Chasidish type Shidduch process.

In Eretz Yisroel the Litvish Shidduch process is closer to the Chasidish system than it is to the American Litvish system.

105/100 isn’t 5%. According to my math professor that is closer to 2%.

The OTD, disability and early death factors are vastly overstated. *Especially* in reference to the Orthodox Jewish population, regarding the latter two. The death factor, in great deal, results from drug overdosage, violence and other negative behaviors prevalent among certain minority groups that skewer the statistics.

And the OTD factor isn’t especially overrepresented by either gender.

CS: I’m partisan to Faltche Fish.

You seem to have a case of double-postitis

Are Roster: Your statistics regarding boys allegedly having a statistically significantly higher death rate at birth, or disability rate is factually inaccurate, medically. And your allegation that boys have a higher OTD rate is inaccurate, religiously, considering how you are determining OTD.

CS: Gefilte Fish, of course.

Jackk: Why are you downplaying a severe prohibition that carries the death penalty. Chayiv Misa means exactly that. It is nothing to be trifled with. It isn’t just a theory; it carries capital punishment as a real legal matter that the courts can and do enforce.

“The Cherem deRabbenu Gershom conversation is a bit far fetched too. There are much simpler answers to the crisis, that would require a bit of maturity instead of a complete transformation of the marital and familial structure of our society.”

Yayin: Again, to reiterate, even with the relaxation of the Cherem (and only with the directives of Gedolei Yisroel, of course), it would only be relevant for a very small number of marriage. 95+% of marriages will continue to be monogamous. Only a tiny low single digits percentage of marriages being polygynous will be sufficient to alleviate the disparity in numbers between males and females in the Shidduch parsha.

Additionally, only a small number of men will be capable (financially, emotionally, etc) of supporting multiple wives and only a small number of women will be willing to be part of a polygynous family. So it will be self-correcting and only affect a few.

“If we can’t convince litvishe girls to be willing to date wonderful chassidish boys, or various other great profiles that they refuse to consider, do you really think they’d be willing to date as a second wife?”

You’re hitting upon another excellent idea. Do you not think it can be feasible to successfully be meshadech Chasidishe boys with Litvishe girls if enough effort it put into it and, perhaps, an origanized effort my Klal Yisroel is made to encourage — similar to how NASI and others have been encouraging close-in-age Shidduchim?

By the way, most self-identifying “Litvish” people come from Chasidish/Heimish family backgrounds. There are very few true Litvaks.

“These mindless rants about a so-called “shidduch crisis” is only increasing the stress levels and pressure on young men and women already struggling with multiple challenges as they look for their beschert.”

Ghadorah: If there’s no Shidduch Crisis, as you’re claiming, then what exactly about are single men and women “already struggling with multiple challenges as they look for their beschert”??

ubiq: I added a citation to my comment that you quoted a few minutes after posting it. You may have submitted your response prior to seeing my citation. The Darchei Moshe and Rema demonstrate Rabbeinu Gershom provided exceptions to the Cherem, such as if the wife couldn’t have children. This effectively establishes that prior to R”G’s Cherem no such exceptions were necessary for polygyny.

Also, the living examples for Teimanim, Moroccans, etc. who practice it are of regular Yidden.

As far as Tanach or Chazal, they didn’t always tell us everyone’s full marital statuses, etc. In other words, if Tanach or Chazal didn’t cite a second wife for Ploni, that isn’t necessarily an indication that Ploni didn’t have a second (or third) wife.

And in any event, the examples of Ashkenazim up to R”G’s time and the examples of non-Ashkenazim up to modern times, itself demonstrates that people without special status (other than, perhaps, being relatively wealthy, etc.) had more than one wife.

“Why would it be more strict by a goy?”

The same reason a goy is chayiv misa for theft.

“A Ben Noach who performs an abortion would be chayav misa whether it is murder or not, because misa applies to all Sheva mitzvos Bnei Noach. It’s also agreed, I believe, that where abortion is prohibited, only the person performing the abortion would be chayav. If the mother requested it but didn’t perform it, she would be chayav only for lifnei iver.”

Which means if it is a self-abortion, such as the over the counter or prescription medication she takes, the mother would be chayiv misa.

CA: I already have everyone’s info.

If the age gap is truly the issue and it is causing a disparity in there being more girls than boys looking for Shidduchim, as a number of Rabbonim and askonim are saying, then indeed repealing Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom’s prohibition of polygyny, something the Gedolim have a right to do (in fact R”G himself set an expiration date), would help the Shidduch Crisis.

Obviously, even when permitted, polygyny would be for a small minority of marriages and not for most.

Where have I even mentioned antiquity, sir? Not even one word about that, yet. My entire comments were regarding contemporary and modern.

But since you mention it, should Yaakov Avinu not married Rochel Imanu? Or skipped on Leah Imanu?

GHadora: Sefardim, Teimanim and other non-Ashkenazim were never subject to Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom. And still are not today. Indeed, even up to modern times you can find non-Ashkenazi frum Yidden who have more than one wife, simultaneously. There’s nothing inherently wrong with it. And it is the heilige minhag these Yidden have always practiced, and some still do.

It cooled off a lot sooner than a hundred years.

Yochi:

If you are correct then there should be no Shidduch Crisis among frum boys, only by frum girls. Yet, there are a relatively large pool of older single boy. All of them should have been able to get married long ago, due to the tons of older single girls.

By the way, the idea of dropping Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom is a viable option if the Gedolei Rabbonim agree it is a good idea.

akuperma: The Rebbe created Kiryas Yoel to be away from town.