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you should note that such jobs are white collar plus, so it is not as if one could equally be a civilian accountant/lawyer and a military one.
I’m not sure I follow what you mean. Please explain.
Thanks.
The Wolf
no industry, organization, house, corporation, politics, etc..
can run with 2 bosses.
There are plenty of businesses run with two equal partners to prove you wrong.
The Wolf
Please let it be noted for the record that I responded to Kasha concerning Rav Miller’s quote, but that it was edited.
The Wolf
Not should. *Must.*
So, are you going to force your wife to wash your face, arms and legs even when she doesn’t want to?
Does your wife pour every cup you drink (when she’s present and not a nidda, of course)?
Does your wife stand around to wait on you?
The Wolf
See Igros Moshe, Orach Chaim 4:49, for Rav Moshe’s strident opposition to feminism
Although the thread started with feminism, the particular subtopic is not about feminism.
The Wolf
EDITED
guided exclusively by the Eternal Holy Torah
Separate question — is there *anyone* whose thinking is guided *exclusively* by the Torah? Is there anyone who was not affected by the culture surrounding him/her, his/her upbringing, experiences, etc. Is there anyone who is so totally divorced not only from external influences but even their own internal personality, biases and experiences?
I don’t think so.
The Wolf
throughout the thousands of years of history no one would have ever agreed with such a position, but now in modern society we all can agree with it.
Until very recently, spousal rape was not a crime.
Throughout thousands of years no one would have ever agreed with the position that it’s possible for a husband to rape his wife, but now, in a modern society, we all agree with it.
IOW, just because an idea has held popular sway for thousands of years does not necessarily mean it’s a good (or bad) one.
The Wolf
Both the Rambam and the Shulchan Aruch at the places you quoted merely list tasks that the wife should perform for her husband.
I found no place in those sources (I did not have time to look up the Rosh) where it says that the husband is the “boss” of the house and has the final say on matters — nor anyplace where it says that it *must* be that way.
The Wolf
That’s at odds with the way the Torah dictates a marriage is to be run.
I challenge that notion. I challenge the notion that the man has to be “the boss” in the household. I challenge the notion that I have the right to unilaterally impose my will on my wife (or that she has the right to do that to me).
The Wolf
ON EDIT: I challenge the notion that is *must* be that way. If your marriage works fine for you that way — then fine — that works for you. But it does NOT work for me.
The Wolf
That *really* clarifies matters. You’re not equals but you are equal partners.
What’s so difficult to understand?
I used to work for two business partners. They were not the equal of each other, but they were equal partners in the business.
Similarly, my wife and I are not equals. She has her strengths and I have mine. But in terms of what goes on in the marriage, we are equal partners, meaning that we both have equal say in how things in the household are run.
The Wolf
I fail to see what someone’s weight, geographic location or religion has to do with his ability to perform white-collar work as opposed to blue-collar work.
Additionally, it should be pointed out that the military has plenty of white-collar jobs as well. Not every person who enters the Army ends up as infantry (11B) and has to crawl through a minefield. The military needs accountants, lawyers and analysts too.
The Wolf
husband’s aren’t “equal” to wives
No, my wife and I not equals. But we *are* equal partners in our marriage.
The Wolf
If she wears the pants in the house, yes.
But what if she doesn’t? What if the husband and wife view their marriage as a partnership — specifically a partnership of equals.
Is it then (again, in your opinion) a perversion of what the Torah wants if the man changes more diapers or cooks more meals?
The Wolf
Some things in life are primarily (or exclusively) male functions, whilst others are primarily (or exclusively) female.
So, does that mean (in your view) it’s a perversion of what the Torah wants if a man changes more diapers or cooks more meals than his wife?
The Wolf
Wolf, not to be haughty, but this thread is more about me 🙂
Oh, I knew that. But he started out with a comment from me, so I felt I needed to respond.
The Wolf
Why should changing diapers and cooking feel like burden. It is a wonderful opportunity to grow!! Feeding your family and ensuring they have healthy and nutrious meals so they can grow to serve Hashem, how fortunate.
If changing diapers and feeding your family are wonderful opportunities for spiritual growth, why should they be exclusively female domains?
The Wolf (who has changed many diapers and cooked many meals)
what’s wrong with that?
For that particular time, place and circumstance, perhaps nothing.
The Wolf
(also he spelled “tongue” incorrectly)
Chatasi. 🙂
The Wolf
The claim that I supposedly “questioned the manhood of Avroham Avinu” was made by someone, first claiming that “Avroham was to obey his wife”, then claiming in a separate post that “they could not see how any marriage could have one spouse obeying the other”.
The claim was made by me. If you think I said something wrong, it’s okay to call me out by name. I don’t mind.
The former comment was “tongue in cheek.”
You stated:
“and DH is giving them a strong role model as a man.”
What kind of ‘man’?
One who obeys his wife?
The implication (as I read it, anyway) is that a ‘man’ who listens to his wife is not a man (or at least not a strong role model.” My comment (again, tongue in cheek) was meant to state that sometimes “real men” DO listen to their wives.
Nonetheless, I can’t imagine a marriage where one partner has all the power and the other must follow blindly. To me, that’s not husband/wife marriage, that’s master/slave relationship.
I’m not going to argue with you over feminism because I don’t think you and I even have the same definition of feminism. As such, arguing it’s merits or lack thereof is pointless.
The Wolf
edited because part of Wolf’s response was to a portion of the post that no longer exists, (also he spelled “tongue” incorrectly)
Frummy,
Thanks for the info. Since I’m not a drinker, I would not have known that.
Ignorance successfully fought.
The Wolf
Believe it or not, most of my internet activity is doing using my real name, so a Google search of that turns up just about everything I ever did online. 🙂
And, of course, you can Google my screenname and find a few things I’ve written. 🙂
The Wolf
Am I the only one who seems to have trouble with the whole concept of lying at the start of a relationship?
Marriages are built on trust. If one party is going to start out the relationship with a lie (i.e. about their age, weight, etc.) then how can trust ever be built?
I know that if I were redt a shidduch to someone who lied about something such as age/weight, etc., I would constantly have in the back of my head “what else is she hiding?”
The Wolf
Last week
Forgive me, as I am quite ignorant when it comes to alcohol (I don’t drink), so this may be a stupid question… but here goes.
Since it’s already well after Shavuous, why do you think the whiskey on the shelf today is from before Pesach?
The Wolf
Music tends to bleed through cultures. I’m fairly certain that just about every piece of popular Jewish music today either derives from non-Jewish music or else was influenced by non-Jewish music in the surrounding environment (whether it be the USA of 2010 or Eastern Europe of 1850).
The Wolf
I find it distressing that the predominant reaction on this forum is, “Let’s avoid service, and let someone else take the hit.”
While it is disturbing, I have to think (just to be fair) that this is a problem that is not exclusive (or even predominantly indicative of) the Jewish community. Many other groups would also be likely to find ways to avoid serving.
The Bob Fellers of the world (just to use an example) are few — not the majority.
The Wolf
Ich learning to be ah Rabbi. Ken the Army use ah Rabbi? I vould like to serve the Yiddishe soldiers!
Such a line might get you enlisted as a 56M — Chaplain’s Assistant. And you might have to work under (and take orders from) a Reform Rabbi. 🙂
The Wolf
When they catch on to one, there are still a dozen others.
Are there? If so, one wonders how they got anyone to serve at all.
That aside, there is one important point to the situation to consider. The OP posited a WWII type of war. While the war in Viet Nam was bad (in terms of national mobilization), it was a neighborhood brawl compared to WWII.
The Viet Nam conflict saw about 500K US soldiers participate, out of a population of about 200 million. WWII, OTOH, saw a total U.S. mobilization of about 16 million men out of a total population of 130 million (which includes EVERYONE — men, women, children, elderly, etc.). In other words, just about everyone who could fight in WWII was sent to do so.
In a true WWII-style mobilization, the draft boards are going to pull everyone they can. High cholesterol won’t keep you out. In Viet Nam, there were plenty of other people who could serve instead. In WWII, that wasn’t the case. If the US had to suddenly mobilize 16-25 million warriors, you aren’t going to get out with simple cholesterol tricks, pretending not to speak English or other such tricks.
The Wolf
It worked for my father when he went to the draft board during the Vietnam draft.
Perhaps it wasn’t widely used or perhaps your father was one of the first to try it before they might have caught on.
However, if the number of people with high cholesterol suddenly shoots up, you can bet people will begin to come suspicious.
The Wolf
Further reading on CO:
To claim status, you have to be against war in any form (a tough sell on religious grounds for a person who belongs to a religion with the concept of milchemes mitzvah).
The Wolf
Many people will suddenly remember their cholesterol level is way too high
And, I guarantee you, the draft boards will catch on to that VERY quickly.
The Wolf
What’s a CO?
Conscientious objector.
[who has] claimed the right to refuse to perform military service” on the grounds of freedom of thought, conscience, or religion.
Mind you, being a CO doesn’t get you off the hook. You may be required to perform civilian service instead of miliatry service. In addition, you can’t just claim to be a CO — as you can imagine, it’s a tough sell to a draft board in time of war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objector#United_States
The Wolf
It would be simillar to thr vietnam war where a very very large percentage took an exemption to study in a seminary.
The OP’s point pre-supposed that there would be no exemption for learning.
My guess would be that a certain percentage would become draft dodgers, a small percentage would willing go to jail, a good number would try (unsuccessfully) to become COs and the vast majority would end up serving if called.
The Wolf
Charlie,
How could you mention the Bronx and not mention Yankee Stadium?! 🙂
The Wolf
they described things the way they appear to the naked eye and he says the Halacha follows the appearance. Therefore even though we know today that lice DO come from eggs, they are still mutar to kill on Shabbos because the microscopic eggs are Halachically insignificant
I’m fairly certain that if you talk to any head-checker in a girls’ yeshiva, they will tell you that lice eggs are NOT microscopic. Small, yes — but not microscopic and they can be seen with the naked eye.
The Wolf
Wolf how about a translation or at least tell us which chapter and verse?
My apologies. Genesis 21:12. God tells Avraham to listen to Sarah (despite his reservations) regarding the explusion of Ishmael and Hagar from the home.
This verse has been used to teach that regarding domestic affairs the husband should listen to his wife.
The Wolf
FWIW, in my home, neither my wife nor I “obey” the other.
We work together on important issues regarding the household. Neither of us would even dream of issuing “orders” to the other. And I can’t imagine a marriage where such a thing did happen.
The Wolf
What kind of ‘man’?
One who obeys his wife?
Avraham Avinu
???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ??????, ?????? ?????????
The Wolf
Feif,
I know that you’re probably not an old fogey like me, so let me impart a bit of wisdom to you.
As you go through life, you’re going to find people who take joy in snide comments, disparaging remarks and outright insults at people who don’t exactly fit their mold. Their idea of shivim panim laTorah is kind of like Henry Ford’s ideas about colors for the model T — you can have any color you like, so long as it’s black.
While most people would consider it perfectly acceptable to respectfully take issue with the Rav’s* positions on varying matters, there are some who prefer to take the low road and instead simply issue snide ad hominem attacks. Such attacks, in my estimation, only reveal more about the character of the person issuing them than the character of the person at whom they are aimed.
The Wolf
* Or anyone else’s for that matter.
but you can’t argue with rav elyashiv and rav kanievsky among others.
Right. As I said earlier … “Without getting into arguments about whose rav is bigger than the other guy’s rav…” 🙂
The Wolf
going up to there is an issur of massive porportions
Without getting into arguments about whose rav is bigger than the other guy’s rav, there *are* opinions that *certain portions* of the Har HaBayis *are* permitted provided that they are not tamei from tumos other than tumas meis. Obviously there are also dissenting opinions.
The Wolf
Just how close is “close?”
The Wolf
Wolf: I just read your post about why CY might not be required in the US, and I think you misunderstand R’ Moshe’s heter. He holds that government regulation creates an “anan sahadi” and that it is equivalent to a Jew witnessing the milking.
OK, that might be true. I might have misunderstood it. But even so, what’s the practical difference?
The Wolf
WOLF- I would think Hashem is trying to send us a mssge. So He shows us the spiritual things in a physical manner so we realize how true true it is.
I don’t have a problem with that concept. But that’s a far cry from saying that volcanoes are the literal gates to hell.
The Wolf
why not?
Why yes?
In any event, I explained it above. Gan Eden was described as a physical place on this earth (even if it is no longer so). Gehenom, to my understand, is not*.
The Wolf
* But hey, I could be wrong. Lord knows I’m wrong often enough.
On the same token, if someone were to “disagree” (G-d forbid) that we were slaves in Egypt, I suppose you could frame that as being a disagreement with me. But in fact it would be proper to note that he is in fact disagreeing with the Torah.
That’s absolutely correct.
But one cannot argue (meaning actually debate) with the Torah because the Torah is not a living, speaking person. OTOH, you can argue with someone who purports to hold the same opinions.
But one would think that if you are agreeing with X (whatever point X happens to be) then you aren’t doing so blindly but that you must have your reasons for asserting and agreeing with X. In that respect, the person is arguing with you over X, even if you are not the originator of X.
The Wolf
P.S. Is the lowercase “w” in the signature of your last post a reflection of newly found humility? 😉
It’s a typo. 🙂 I’m not even worthy of humility. 🙂
Seriously, however, if you’re accepting the statement at face value, then you *are* making it your contention as well — just as it is, no doubt, your contention that we were slaves in Egypt, that God exists and that Rav Moshe was the Rashkbhag.
The Wolf
Smoking graves of reshoim.
Korach and his sons, why did they descend into the earth? Why could their voices be heard coming from underground in that particular physical location for generations after?
Those are clearly miraculous events and were not a part of the “everyday” world as volcanoes are.
Chochomim who searched for the entrance to Gan Eden.
Do you know that they searched for a *physical* entrance?
And even if the answer is yes, it could be argued that since the Torah depicts Gan Eden as a physical place (even if it is no longer so), there is basis for that. One cannot say the same for gehenom.
The Wolf
Potsandpans,
I don’t know the answer to your question, but I’m certain that if you contact an organization such as Ohel, Tikvah, the OU or COJO, then could probably point you in the right direction.
The Wolf
Another issue about your comments that perturbs me is how you seem to constantly attempt to frame your disagreeing with what was said by Rav Moshe, by trying to turn it into my position when in reality it isn’t my position but rather the position of Gedolei Yisroel (that I merely directly quoted verbatim.)
That’s a fair criticism, but allow me to follow up with a question.
Do you agree with what Rav Moshe? If so, then is it not your contention as well?
The wolf
The sharrei gehenim are IN the core of the earth
Why would a spiritual place like Gehenom need a physical gate?
The Wolf