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P.S. Is the lowercase “w” in the signature of your last post a reflection of newly found humility? 😉
It’s a typo. 🙂 I’m not even worthy of humility. 🙂
Seriously, however, if you’re accepting the statement at face value, then you *are* making it your contention as well — just as it is, no doubt, your contention that we were slaves in Egypt, that God exists and that Rav Moshe was the Rashkbhag.
The Wolf
Smoking graves of reshoim.
Korach and his sons, why did they descend into the earth? Why could their voices be heard coming from underground in that particular physical location for generations after?
Those are clearly miraculous events and were not a part of the “everyday” world as volcanoes are.
Chochomim who searched for the entrance to Gan Eden.
Do you know that they searched for a *physical* entrance?
And even if the answer is yes, it could be argued that since the Torah depicts Gan Eden as a physical place (even if it is no longer so), there is basis for that. One cannot say the same for gehenom.
The Wolf
Potsandpans,
I don’t know the answer to your question, but I’m certain that if you contact an organization such as Ohel, Tikvah, the OU or COJO, then could probably point you in the right direction.
The Wolf
Another issue about your comments that perturbs me is how you seem to constantly attempt to frame your disagreeing with what was said by Rav Moshe, by trying to turn it into my position when in reality it isn’t my position but rather the position of Gedolei Yisroel (that I merely directly quoted verbatim.)
That’s a fair criticism, but allow me to follow up with a question.
Do you agree with what Rav Moshe? If so, then is it not your contention as well?
The wolf
The sharrei gehenim are IN the core of the earth
Why would a spiritual place like Gehenom need a physical gate?
The Wolf
wolfish: why are you making laytzunus here?
While I am reputed to have a sense of humor (I’ll allow you to judge the quality or lack thereof), I was being serious in this thread and asking serious questions.
explain to the rav what everyone said and THEN ask his advice.
And, you’ll note, I said that I agree with that, in principle. But that doesn’t mean that, in the end, when you make your decision, that you *must* follow his advice. You are free to consider, weigh and ultimate, if you feel so, reject his advice.
The Wolf
all other questions and conversations are off limits due to Tznius reasons.
It shouldn’t even have to come to that. No one has to justify why they don’t want to answer personal questions. If your wife doesn’t want to deal with him anymore, she should just very sternly tell him that she does not socialize with men. That should be the end of it.
If it still goes on, then she has a valid complaint to take to the employee’s supervisor.
The Wolf
and by a lawsuit you should ask daas torah,too
I have nothing against asking a Rav for advice in any field – in fact, I’m for asking for advice from people with wisdom. What I’m against is the idea that you must follow him blindly regardless of qualifications.
The Wolf
if you dont trust daas torah then there is no point in asking their advice
Do you think it’s possible that I might value a rav’s advice, but take it into consideration with other factors and not just follow it blindly?
The Wolf
but real daas torah are the experts!
Are they? A Rav will know better how to invest in complicated derivatives than a financial expert? A rav will know better than a lawyer how to respond to a lawsuit or criminal complaint? Will they know how to fix an electrical problem in my house better than an electrician?
Yes, it’s possible that they might know better than someone in those fields. But will they know better than the average professional (or expert) in those fields — and be correct on a more consistent basis? I don’t think so.
The Wolf
but if you ask daas torah, first of all they are probably right,
I’m not convinced of that.
Clarification:
Not that there’s no chance that they can’t be right – they certainly coudl be – but I’m not convinced that they would be correct more often than an expert in the field at hand.
The Wolf
but if you ask daas torah, first of all they are probably right,
I’m not convinced of that.
and even if they were wrong you still did the right thing by listening to them
But what if everything goes wrong? What if it turns out to be the wrong type of move for your family?
The Wolf
if you ask daas torah, even if theyre wrong theyre right. know what i mean?
No, I don’t know what you mean. Please elaborate.
The Wolf
As it turns out, I had a good Shavuous night. My two teens decided that they didn’t want to learn what they were doing in yeshiva. So, figuring that they might want something a bit easier and something that can serve as a springboard for discussions, I opened up the gemara Sanhedrin and did a few dafim of Chelek with my sons.
The Wolf
My shul does a learning program with different people speaking every 45 minutes, with a few minutes in between for drinks and snacks.
While I like a shiur as much as the next guy, on Shavuous night, I definitely cannot attend one. At that hour of the evening, I need to be actively learning, not passively listening. If I’m listening to a shiur at 1 in the morning, I’ll be asleep at 1:10.
The Wolf
IMHO a chavrusa is unquestionably better.
Obviously, it varies from person to person. Some people find it easier to learn alone. For some, a chavrusa will definitely be better — for others it would not.
The Wolf
If they are moving within the same general area, I’m not sure how necessary it is to ask if I should move from Avenue R to Avenue S.
I understood that from your statement. However, I, like many other people, moved from one neighborhood to another. As such, are we “out of the Torah camp?”
The Wolf
WolfishMusings: I think it is common sense that you should ask an Adom Gadol is such and such neighborhood (or city) is appropriate for your family.
Ah, well, but see, “common sense,” as I pointed out, means different things to different people.
I guess, according to your interpretation of Reb Moshe, I can no longer “be considered within the Torah camp.” But you know what? I’m willing to bet that the majority of people whom we would consider “yeshivish” failed to ask a gadol before purchasing a house as well. So, I guess there’s lots of us who are “outside the Torah camp.”
The Wolf
WolfishMusings: *Where* to live, I meant as in neighborhood or city, etc.
Right. So, I bought a house in a neighborhood in Brooklyn. Was I required to ask a gadol before I did that?
The Wolf
Where to live is.
I have to ask a gadol before I buy a house? (Assuming, of course, I intend to live in it and it’s not for investment.)
The Wolf
So, if my common sense tells me that I don’t have to ask a gadol whom to vote for, then I don’t have to, correct?
If not, then please define how “common sense” is to be utilized since different people have different perceptions of “common sense.”
The Wolf
That is situational dependent.
Then I return you to my previous question. How is one to know the difference?
The Wolf
Thanks for the clarification.
So, that also means that I don’t *have to* go to a gadol for anything outside of a halachic nature either, correct?
The Wolf
ROTFL! If common sense needs elaboration…
Well, I’m asking for it.
Do you mean to that I can use my common sense when deciding what needs a gadol’s psak or not?
Do you mean that it’s common sense that everything needs a gadol’s psak?
Do you mean that it’s common sense that a gadol isn’t all-knowing and that I should only consult them in their field of expertise?
What do you mean by “common sense?” Instead of laughing at me, how about answering the question.
The Wolf
Common sense.
Elaborate please. What do you mean by “common sense.”
The Wolf
Where have I made a contention? I quoted Rav Moshe’s contention.
(Mind you, this is the *very* thing I was trying to avoid and, of course, in my complete and utter stupidity, I allowed it to happen anyway. I never learn…)
The Wolf
Where have I made a contention? I quoted Rav Moshe’s contention.
Fine. So you think it was Reb Moshe’s contention that one must consult with a gadol before any decision in life? And if not, then how does one distinguish what requires a gadol’s “wisdom and advice” and what does not?
The Wolf
(Of course, this is putting aside the fact that Reb Moshe’s statement almost amounts to a tautology.
The Wolf)
Clearly politics is an example.
So, is it your contention that one must consult with a gadol before any decision in life? And if not, then how do you distinguish what requires a gadol’s “wisdom and advice” and what does not?
The Wolf
Trying,
Let me ask you this question then. Do you think Reb Moshe was talking *only* about politics, or do you think he meant in any field of life?
The Wolf
Do you really not know the point he was trying to make, or do you merely wish him to state it as a defined prelude for debate?
The latter. Is it unreasonable to ascertain what his/her intentions were before launching into a debate and then running into “I didn’t mean that, I was just putting up a quote…?”
The Wolf
Thank you ShlomoZalman.
Trying,
Was there some point you were trying to make, or were you just in the mood to throw out a quote?
The Wolf
Rashkbhag
Please forgive the ignorance, but what does the above stand for?
The Wolf
you can save the general or the great philosopher, you save the general
Perhaps not if he got you into the position where you and he need saving. 🙂
The Wolf
As far as the label “frum”, it is just a label. Discard it, as it has no intrinsic value.
Agreed. But that’s what the thread is about isn’t it? Deciding what is “frum” (or Orhtodox)? 🙂
The Wolf
WolfishMusings: The post in question wasn’t intended to “answer” your philosophical statement (it wasn’t even in the form of a question.)
OK, let’s try this again.
Back on page 1, you agreed with “says who” when (s)he said that the definition of frum is keeping the 613 mitzvos. Purposely not keeping one of them causes a person to cease being frum.
You also indicated that keeping the mitzvos d’rabbanan is included in the 613 mitzvos.
I then responded pointing out that people who learn during Chazaras HaShatz are *purposely* ignoring a d’rabbanan. As such they should no longer be considered frum by your definition.
Your response was that perhaps they are doing it out of ignorance and hence should still be considered frum.
My rejoinder to that is that if failing to keep a mitzvah (or mitzvos) out of ignorance is enough to keep one in the “frum” community, then there are millions of Jews worldwide who should be considered frum, according to your definition, since their failure to keep the mitzvos is out of ignorance.
Obviously (or perhaps not — correct me on this if I’m wrong) you wouldn’t consider them frum.
If that’s the case, why do people who purposely learn during Chazaras HaShatz get a “pass” because it’s out of ignorance, but millions of unaffiliated Jews do not when their ignorance is probably much greater?
The Wolf
wolfishMusings: The post in question wasn’t intended to “answer” your philosophical question.
1. My question wasn’t “philisophical” — it was asking you to clarify and explain your position.
2. You’re saying that you don’t intend to answer my question, and yet, when I say that you’re ignoring it I’m mistaken?
The Wolf
(edited to fix “was” to “wasn’t.”)
if there’s a kiddish club, then it’s orthodox. extras like herring and chulent (mit kishka) makes it ultraorthodox.
By that definition, the shul I daven in is Catholic. 🙂
The Wolf
WolfishMusings: You are expert at misunderstanding other posters.
If so, then please enlighten me as to how your response answers my question.
The Wolf
WolfishMusings: Instead of being so philosophical, start educating your mistaken brethren. 🙂
Which translates into “I don’t have an answer so I’m going to ignore your question.”
The Wolf
IOW, you can’t have it both ways.
You can’t say that those who are purposely ignoring the mitzvah of following Chazaras HaShatz are frum because they’re doing it out of ignorance and then turn around and say that other people who fail to keep mitzvos out of ignorance are not frum.
The Wolf
Tinok Shenishba.
So what?
You implied that not keeping a mitzvah out of ignorance does not get one kicked out of being frum. So, if that’s the case, there are plenty of unaffiliated Jews who do not keep Shabbos, kashrus or anything else out of ignorance. By your definition, they should be considered frum.
The Wolf
Who said they’re right?
They’re not right.
Perhaps they are ignorant of the halacha, and are not knowingly sinful. You should educate them.
If not keeping a mitzvah out of ignorance is enough to keep one in the “frum” community, then there are a lot more “frum” Jews than you think. Heck, a fair portion of the unaffiliated Jews worldwide could be considered “frum.”
The Wolf
BTW one of the 613 mitzvos is to follow d’rabannan
Excellent… so all those people who learn during Chazaras HaShatz instead of following along, they’re not frum, right? They’re *purposely* ignoring a d’rabbanan. 🙂
The Wolf
Thank you for the kind words SJS.
The Wolf
A person is required to follow 613 mitzvos. If someone is not following lekatchila 1 of the 613 mitzvos (knowing that it’s a mitzva) then that person is not frum.
What counts as “folowing” the mitzvos?
If someone eats non-glatt meat (e.g. Hebrew National) is he following the mitzvah of kashrus?
If a woman doesn’t wear stockings is she no longer following the mitzvah of tznius (and therefore no longer frum)?
How about if a person is a Zionist? Some have labeled that as “Avoda Zara” even on these very boards. Is a Zionist “frum?”
How about someone who doesn’t follow a d’rabannan? Are they frum?
In short, saying “someone who follows the 613 mitzvos” leaves a LOT of “wiggle room” in the definition of frum.
The Wolf
There’s just a little more to it than that. According to this definition, Korach was the frumest of the frum.
So, what’s your definition of “frum” as it is to be understood today?
The Wolf
Go in front of a bull waving a big RED cloth, and tell
the bull “Don’t Charge!” “Control Yourself!…..
That’s Stupid!!! ……Don’t provoke it!!!
Actually, bulls are colorblind. It doesn’t really matter what COLOR the big cloth is.
The Wolf
paskening that C’Y’ is “too high” a chumra for the average person who is not a big scholar, to hold by?
Why does someone need to pasken this? If it’s halacha, then by all means. If it’s merely a chumra, then let everyone decide for themselves whether or not to accept it upon themselves.
The Wolf
The Torah She’baal Peh is the oral Torah
I know what the Torah SheB’al Peh is. I was asking you to clarify. Specifically comment on the example I gave (wearing a sheitel). There is no clear answer from the TSBP since there are varying customs. The same could be said about many (not all, but many) aspects of tznius.
Whose particular interpretation of TSBP are we going to require that everyone follow?
The Wolf