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This “conversation” has one whopper of a title! Ujm, don’t you think you exaggerated a little?
Shimon – A day in the life of the “Coffee Room”. This should really be called the “Rage Room”.
from from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 22, page 547:During the 1991 [CE] Gulf War, Rabbi [Moshe] Sherer
spoke on the phone to [Mr. Yisrael] Katsover
[a longtime military reporter] almost every day:“He [Rabbi Moshe Sherer] didn’t sleep.
Every missile that fell [on Israel] was a cut in his own skin.”__________________________________________
PERSONAL COMMENT:At that time, Israel was a Secular Zionist state with
a Secular Zionist majority and Secular Zionist leaders!Yet Rabbi Moshe Sherer ZTL ZYA considered an attack
against Israel to be like a wound on his own body!When Rabbi Shteinmann ZTL ZYA came to Monsey,
the Neturei Karta spit on his face.When will we Jews get SERIOUS about stopping this very dangerous evil?
__________________________________________
Every member of the Neturei Karta is a LUNATIC.
Every member of the Neturei Karta is a RODAIF.
Every member of the Neturei Karta is a MOSAIR.
Every member of the Neturei Karta is a CHILLUL HASHEM.
Every member of the Neturei Karta is a SHONDA FOR THE G0Y1M.
Every member of the Neturei Karta is a FANATICAL ANTI-SEMITE.__________________________________________
Neturei Karta Attacks Rav Moshe Hillel Hirsch:Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky ZTL ZYA said this about the modern State of Israel:
The State of Israel was one example he gave of
the need to replace kana’us with a more balanced view.On the one hand, he fully endorsed a letter issued
by Rabbi Elazar Schach on the eve of Agudath Israel
entering the governing coalition in Israel in 1977 [CE],
which called upon the religious community
not to be carried away by enthusiasm for a state
founded as a secular state, whose laws are secular laws,
and whose leadership is secular.He had himself frequently warned those leaving for Israel,
“Don’t lose your head at the sight of a Jewish army.”At the same time, he [Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky]
disagreed with the view of the Satmar Rebbe
that the miraculous Israeli victory in 1967 [CE]
was the work of the sitra achra (satanic forces):[Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky said:]
________“I deny that miracles can emanate from a destructive satanical force.
________Miracles of such magnitude can only be performed by a force for good.”Reb Yaakov [Kamenetsky] felt that but for
the creation of the State in 1948 [CE] a million Jews
would have become assimilated as a result of
the despair that followed the Holocaust and
attributed the renascence [rebirth] of Soviet Jewry
to the miraculous Israeli military victory in 1967.If only the Israeli government had also recognized
Hashem’s miraculous deliverance in 1967 [CE],
he added, history would have been changed..…
Similarly, he [Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky] concluded, recognition of
Israel’s role in preventing millions of Jews
from losing any connection to the Jewish people
must mitigate our kana’us, even as
our love for our fellow Jews in Eretz Yisrael
must “not blind us to [their] shortcomings.”SOURCE: Reb Yaakov: The Life and Times of HaGaon
Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky by Yonason Rosenblum,
based on the research of Rabbi Noson Kamenetsky (chapter 11, page 209),
Mesorah Publications, publication dates: February 1993 & January 2004,
ISBN: 0-89906-413-2 (hardcover)
ISBN: 0-89906-415-9 (paperback)__________________________________________
from from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 22, page 547:In a fascinating letter to Rabbi Menachem Porush,
written half a year after Israel’s dramatic victory
in the Six-Day War [in year 1967 CE], Rabbi [Moshe] Sherer
agreed “that what transpired were great miracles.”PERSONAL COMMENT:
This short quote proves that Rabbi Moshe Sherer
disagreed with those who said that Israel’s dramatic victory
in the Six-Day War resulted from the sitra achra (satanic forces)
[for example: the Satmar Rebbe].Rabbi Menachem Porush was a member of Knesset for Agudath Israel
between 1959 and 1975 CE, and again from 1977 until 1994 CE.
The Jewish Press published Rabbi Porush’s articles hundreds of times.SQUARE_ROOT:
As previously mentioned, you should be banned from commenting further until you apologize to those you falsely accused of being Hamas agents and the like.evidence that the Agudath Israel organization is pro-Israel:
______________________________
Yeshivah World News said this:“Agudath Israel of America expresses its appreciation
to Ambassador Nikki Haley, whose service in
the United Nations over the past nearly
two years has been exemplary.”“Ambassador Haley’s voice was clear and consistent
in championing the causes of human rights
and democracy across the globe.”“Her strong support of Israel and articulate defense
of its security made her a deeply respected figure
in the Orthodox Jewish community.”“Agudath Israel represents and among citizens of
goodwill of all faiths. She will be long remembered
as a fearless fighter against the pervasive
anti-Israel hypocrisy of the United Nations.”“We wish Ambassador Haley well as she leaves
her post, and look forward to working with her
again in the years ahead in whatever form
of public service she may undertake.”SOURCE: article titled: “Statement Of Agudath Israel
Of America On The Resignation Of Nikki Haley
US Ambassador To The United Nations”
2018 October 10 at 9:30 AM by The Yeshiva World [News]
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1602773/statement-of-agudath-israel-of-america-on-the-resignation-of-nikki-haley-us-ambassador-to-the-united-nations.htmllol
rav moshe sternbuch says in his weekly alon from last week that he himself heard from brisker rav
re the medina : that ALTHOUGH THE MEDINA WAS A POSITIVE DEVELOPMENT FOR THE MANY PLEITIM AFTER THE WAR , who were left without a roof
in that era , nevertheless its establishment is prohibited
and that we cannot ‘do business’ with yahadut
absorbing ‘losses’ by establishing a medina , and thereby ‘gaining’ a home for the many pleitim
now how is that for a kanna’i , nuanced and realistic view – for a change ?
.
.ujm:
If you observed anyone referring to the Republic of Ireland as the Fourth Reich of Ireland, would you get as bent out of shape as you do when you hear the State of Israel being referred to as such? If not, it appears you give the Zionist State some sort of messianic categorization.
—complete shtuyot vahavalim .
I do not give any sort of messianic categorization to the medina
and nevertheless deeply resent people calling the medina anything close to the ‘Fourth Reich of Israel’ …
.
.the fact is that the medina is the place millions of my brothers call home
and the millions of fanatical barbarians who want to do away with the medina AND WITH MY BROTHERS who live there
are the ones who employ this very same language to justify their barbarian blood lust
to do away with MY BROTHERS who live there chas veshalom
it is stupid [or evil] to disregard this obvious fact ….
.
.“re the medina : that ALTHOUGH THE MEDINA WAS A POSITIVE DEVELOPMENT FOR THE MANY PLEITIM AFTER THE WAR , who were left without a roof ”
No way the Brisker Rav ever stated that. Something (as in most of it) must have been lost in translation.So, Israeli gov protects the bochur from going to a medina reshoyim and HaRav is unhappy? What a contrast with R Elchonon who warned Yidden not to go to a country that has minhagim against Torah.
More evidence that the Agudath Israel organization is pro-Israel:
______________________________
Yeshivah World News said this:In response to Hamas’ October 7 [2023] atrocities and Israel’s war
against terrorism, Agudath Israel of America is organizing an ongoing
“Virtual Washington Mission” to impress upon the nation’s elected officials
the importance of their continued support for Israel and to solicit their aid
in helping to address the security challenges currently facing American Jews.Agudath Israel’s Washington Office has worked closely with the organization’s
nationwide regional offices to coordinate the virtual meetings with
over 30 senators and congresspersons. And more are being arranged.
Some members expressed their desire to have in-person meetings,
which were convened in their home districts.The agenda of these meetings has included the need for Congress
to back up Israel’s rooting out of Hamas, to condemn and isolate
the terrorist group, the safeguarding the hostages, and to quickly
pass legislation to provide Israel the military aid it urgently needs.In addition, the activists are expressing concern regarding the
dramatic uptick in antisemitic incidents in the U.S., particularly
those experienced by Jewish students on America’s college campuses,
and urged the members to support a substantial increase in federal
security grants that support shuls, schools and other community institutions.The mission’s participants include hundreds of rabbinic and
lay leaders across the country, all meeting with their respective
members of Congress. Participants report that the reaction
of the senators and congresspersons has been overwhelmingly
positive, and receptive to the Jewish community leaders’
perspective and message. The members of Congress stressed
how important it is that they hear from their constituents at this time,
and how every individual who reaches out to a congressmember makes an impact.The meetings have led to tangible results including members
of Congress co-sponsoring legislation, reaching out to University deans,
and in one case, authoring a letter to Secretary Blinken asking him
to arrange a screening of the Israeli video featuring the brutality
of Hamas’ October 7th attacks for members of Congress and the media.“Everyone needs to understand that now is the time to talk to
your elected officials in Washington,” said Rabbi Yossie Charner,
Agudath Israel’s director of congressional affairs.“For every PRO-ISRAEL call a congressional office receives,
we have been told that it gets even more from the other side.
We, as both an organization and as constituents,
must make our voices heard.SOURCE: article titled: “Standing With Israel: Agudath Israel’s Virtual Washington Mission”
2023 November 13 by The Yeshiva World [News]ujm said – “YYA: If you observed anyone referring to the Republic of Ireland as the Fourth Reich of Ireland, would you get as bent out of shape as you do when you hear the State of Israel being referred to as such? If not, it appears you give the Zionist State some sort of messianic categorization.”
Well, FWIW, Ireland isn’t so far from going there… But seriously, there is a range of other options between “Messianic Redemption” and “Nazis”, don’t you think?
Ask yourself: If YOU thought Israel was no different than Ireland, then why do YOU get bent out of shape when the Israeli “leaders” do things (that they obviously shouldn’t be doing) against Yiddishkeit? Why do you expect them to be better than Goyim? אלא מאי, even you understand that Israel, despite being very deeply flawed and in need of תיקון, is “something more than Ireland”, not אתחלתא דגאולה, just “something more than Ireland”. Maybe even something more than Monsey…
SQUARE_ROOT – It isn’t a Chiddush to anyone that Agudath Israel is mildly pro-Israel. Therefore what exactly? Some agree, some are more pro than them, and some are anti. None of the other groups really care what Agudah holds.
After the Balfour Declaration, in HaTekufah HaGedolah, page 174 to 175,
Rabbi Meir Simcha of Dvinsk (born in 1843 CE & died in 1926 CE)
wrote that “the fear of The [Three] Oaths has departed.”He expressed his approval of Religious Zionism
in Sare HaMeah, Volume 6, pages.233 to 234.rav moshe sternbuch says in his weekly alon from last week that he himself heard from brisker rav
re the medina : that ALTHOUGH THE MEDINA WAS A POSITIVE DEVELOPMENT FOR THE MANY PLEITIM AFTER THE WAR , who were left without a roof
in that era , nevertheless its establishment is prohibited
and that we cannot ‘do business’ with yahadut
absorbing ‘losses’ by establishing a medina , and thereby ‘gaining’ a home for the many pleitim
now how is that for a kanna’i , nuanced and realistic view – for a change ?
btw. NOTHING GOT LOST IN TRANSLATION ….
—–
katan will refuse to recognize the sun , because it shines in the medina …
…
.
.After the Balfour Declaration, in HaTekufah HaGedolah, page 174 to 175,
Rabbi Meir Simcha of Dvinsk (born in 1843 CE & died in 1926 CE)
wrote that “the fear of The [Three] Oaths has departed.”He expressed his approval of Religious Zionism
in Sare HaMeah, Volume 6, pages 233 to 234.yankel> absorbing ‘losses’ by establishing a medina , and thereby ‘gaining’ a home for the many pleitim
help me understand this shitah. So, if the pleitim had nowhere to go and risked their lives or ruchniyous otherwise – it was still prohibited
to work wth the medinah to save those people? maybe I did not hap the whole message here.KGN said this in the YWN Coffee Room on 2025 January 10:
“Some Jews have a hatred against Medinat Yisrael that is so great
that they have no other focus other than this.
Thus, some Jews have dedicated their lives to dismantling of Medinat Yisrael,
even at the expense of the lives of millions of Jews….”@AAQ
it was prohibited for the founders of the medina to establish it ,
even tough that there were clear ‘gains’ as a result of its establishment
because one cannot do business with the torah
like yaakov’s exclamation that he would never have slept at this holy place of the bet hamikdash
had he known about its holiness
although that in case of not sleeping , he would have lost out on the magnificent revelation contained within the dream
its not worth the ‘gain’ of the revelation , if it involves an issur of sleeping in a holy place
same with the medina its not worth the ‘gain’ of the refugees if it involves the issur of establishing the medina
that statement was re the actions of the founders themselves.
.
.
.When PM Netanyahu visits NYC, Neturei Karta and radical Satmars like to come out and protest against him (Comrade Mamdani would highly approve of this).
Chazal and Rambam did not state that by living in NYC, one’s sins are forgiven.
But according to Chazal and the Rambam, Netanyahu’s sins are forgiven because he lives in Eretz Yisrael!
Read this Rambam and weep, NK and radical Satmars in NYC.
“אָמְרוּ חֲכָמִים כָּל הַשּׁוֹכֵן בְּאֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל עֲוֹנוֹתָיו מְחוּלִין. שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (ישעיה לג כד) “וּבַל יֹאמַר שָׁכֵן חָלִיתִי הָעָם הַיּשֵׁב בָּהּ נְשֻׂא עָוֹן”.
”
The Sages commented: ‘Whoever dwells in Eretz Yisrael will have his sins forgiven as Isaiah 33:24 states: ‘The inhabitant shall not say ‘I am sick.’ The people who dwell there shall be forgiven their sins.’
(Rambam, Hilchos Melachim 5:11)have a look in penei yehoshua on the gemara in ketubot you quoted
where he says that the kedusha of EY causes a person to repent – therefore are his sins forgiven
but – does penei yehoshua add – if he ignores the kedusha of EY and does not repent , then his sins are amplified
and much worse than if he would have stayed in chuts laarets
so not really sure who is the one obligated to weep ….
.
.
.yankel> same with the medina its not worth the ‘gain’ of the refugees if it involves the issur of establishing the medina
that statement was re the actions of the founders themselves.So, a questionable position on shevuos becomes a reason to destroy millions of Jews- on top of those already destroyed in USSR and then in WW2?
Again, I think pre-WW2 political anti-Z positions were pretty reasonable, but when it became clear that those who followed Zs were saved and those who followed other opinions were destroyed, it requires ridiculous mental acrobatics to continue maintaining that position. As your statement above demonstrates.
RightJew, thank you for quoting Rambam’s Hilchos Melachim 5:11.
Yaakov Yosef A said:
“It isn’t a Chiddush to anyone that Agudath Israel is mildly pro-Israel.
Therefore what exactly?”
__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:The Agudath Israel follows the Gedolim.
Therefore, anyone who says that the Gedolim
agree with dismantling The State of Israel is a LIAR.The Gedolim DO NOT AGREE with dismantling The State of Israel!
This means that UJM and HaKatan are LIARS
who wickedly misrepresent the position of the Gedolim.And they misrepresent the position of the Gedolim intentionally
and with deadly malice towards millions of Jews,
including millions of Jewish children who live in Eretz Yisrael.They are just as bad as the worst neo-Nazis.
They are just as bad as the worst Hamas terrorists.UJM is a RODAIF and a MOSAIR and so is HaKatan.
__________________________________________
The Satan rejoices every time UJM or HaKatan misuse
this Coffee Room to increase hate between Jews.
__________________________________________
Last but not least, Agudath Israel is more than mildly pro-Israel.@square
have a look in penei yehoshua on the gemara in ketubot rightjew quoted
where PN’Y says that the kedusha of EY causes a person to repent – therefore are his sins forgiven
but – does penei yehoshua add – if he ignores the kedusha of EY and does not repent , then his sins are amplified
and much worse than if he would have stayed in chuts laarets …..
.
.
.ujm:
Czarist Russia and the Weimar Republic also had millions of Yidden. If you head people referring to Czarist Russia or the Weimar Republic as the Fourth Reich, would you get as bent out of shape that someone wanted Czarist Russia or the Weimar Republic to be replaced by a better entity?
——————–1] weimar did not have millions of yidden
2] huge difference between weimar , russia on one hand and the medina on the other hand
those regimes – al pi derech hateva if replaced would not signify unceasing october 7 repeats has veshalom
as opposed to the medina — anyone with even one millimeter of reality in their bones , knows that al pi derech hateva the alternative to the medina is
unceasing repetitions of october 7 chvsh — if in any doubt, have a talk with a yazidi survivor and post their personal experiences ….
.
.
.@AAQ
you are missing the point
first of all I quoted the rav mibrisk as an example of a realistic nuanced position of the kanna’i camp – unlike the lala statements of ujm , katan and somejew …
This position is one of many different valid positions
re the possible establishment of a medina
In this statement attributed by rav shternbuch to the rav , , there are no reasons given for the issur of establishing the medina
it could be the shavu’ot as you infer
– it could be the inevitable loss of innocent life ,
it could be the secular nature of the new government leading many astray
the main point he was making is – that one cannot trade
trade – meaning gaining one thing for the benefit of another
that was not the reason I quoted him btw
I only quoted him to show an example of reality based kanna’im ….
.
.@Yankel Berel:
I do not accept your “Satmarism” replacement theologies as authentic Torah.
Stop misquoting me, I did not quote the Gemara above, I quoted the Rambam 5:11 above.
The Rambam says nothing about the replacement theology you cited.Read this Rambam and weep Satmar/Neturei Kapos:
אֲפִלּוּ הָלַךְ בָּהּ אַרְבַּע אַמּוֹת זוֹכֶה לְחַיֵּי הָעוֹלָם הַבָּא.
וְכֵן הַקָּבוּר בָּהּ נִתְכַּפֵּר לוֹ.
(Hilchos Melachim 5:11)
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