Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
To the Group
A careful read of the comments reveals that all the habad defenders have one thing in common . They are swept up in the benefits of their movement ,coupled with explicit lifelong conditioning from their rebbi to totally ignore any criticism of their movement .
That is leading them to ignore the crux of the issues raised, and instead focus on other tangent unrelated points which serve as a smokescreen enabling them to avoid the points raised.
.
Just a small question – when their rebbe told his hasidim to “phaiph” , who do you think they were phaiphing on ?
They were phaiphing on us , on our criticism of habad . On our questions .
.
So is it any wonder that they seem to be ,excuse the expression, “hard of hearing” , when it comes to criticism .
Their rebbe did a good job , they are well prepared.
Please habad hasidim , this is not meant to upset you , you are wonderful people and you are to be admired for the manifold qualities you embody .
But that does not make those issues disappear.@nomesorah
“Though I can’t place my finger on where we disagree. What is your point about Chabad?”
——————
Please read my posts . Hope it is clear enough ….
.To the group –
Read Nomesorahs arguments on this thread . It seems like their only purpose is to distract from the issues raised here ….
Sorry this is not personal . You might very well be a terrific individual in real life …@menachem
There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between your bias and my [supposed] bias . Yours PREDATED the issue , whereas mine [in your eyes] is a RESULT of this issue .
We are discussing the issue. I am saying that your response to the issue is colored by your PREEXISTING bias , whereas my response has no pre existing bias .
The difference is so simple that it is mind boggling that an [ostensibly ] moderate habad supporter like you would ignore it .@ menachem
I used to be naive , but made a uturn on this .Why?
Because you studied and listened to so many of his talks that you realized what he really meant?
Or because you heard so many one-line excerpts of his statements?
Or because you heard so much anti-Chabad rhetoric?
—————-
None of the above .
It probably a result of my maturing and seeing the world as it is and not as I would like it to be , combined with the weight of the evidence ..
[btw Listening to his talks is irrelevant to this question]@menachem
‘Think that your being a hasid of his , precludes you of objectivity in this regardI can say the same about you being a misnaged.’
——
Wrong . I was not a misnaged. Far from it . I Was an Omed Min HaTsad. Did not understand what all those people wanted from habad . And had sympathy for the [apparent] victim of unwarranted accusations.
Nevertheless came to that conclusion.
So it seems that you agree that you are not qualified ?
as your only rejoinder is that I wasn’t any better ?
Suggest you study all the utterances [and their effects on the hasidim] FROM A NEUTRAL STANCE , [or even better – imagine satmar or rav shach would have said them] and tell us – honestly –
whether naivete in this case corresponds to the objective truth ….@ always ask
Habad claimed back in 1991 that their rebbi performed that feat by predicting that NO ONE in Israel would be harmed in the first gulf war .
Which serves as ironclad proof that he is a Navi .
ounded
. They conveniently forgot that Jewish lawyer in Petah Tiqva who died from a direct missile hit , not to mention countless others who indirectly died as a result of the missiles , in addition to the many Jewish wounded.
Rambam – “ALL details of prediction have to come fruition . Even a small detail cant be omitted.”
.
If that would be a proof , then it should serve as qualification for the opposite of a navi emet and its results ….@nomesorah
‘We don’t do this with Gur, Satmar, or any other group, that has way less tradition and is even farther out there’
.
Come on … This is so ridiculous , its not even funny .
You not even getting it after 20 pages …
Gur and Satmar ? Have they changed Ikarei Emuna like used socks ?
.
Tradition ?
Come on….
What tradition is there in Neo habad ? Argument is NOT about the old parts of habad . Its about the NEW parts . There is no tradition on those whatsoever.
There is a tradition AGAINST them ….@menachem
“All those things you quoted were actually said about his father-in-law. His anivus was so great, that he never publicly called himself the Rebbe. He constantly said that the Rebbe and nossi was his father-in-law.”
.
Careful and objective perusal of ALL his referrals to his shver troughout his hanhaga , show that he DID use referral to his Shver as a convenient vehicle to hint to himself . I used to be naive , but made a uturn on this .
Think that your being a hasid of his , precludes you of objectivity in this regard …@nomesorah
Re public learning of nistar thru the generations …..
.
1] What does it say in Masechta Hagiga re being doresh be maaseh merkava ? In front of how many people ?
2] What does the Shach , on the foremost Leaders of Klal Yisrael, say about Limud HaKabala , in his Peirush on Hilchot Talmud Torah in YD ?
3] Is Midrash classified as Nistar ? Or as Nigleh ? Was my post regarding Nistar meant to include Midrash or exclude it ?
4] Was one of the reasons the early hasidim were put in herem bec of popularizing kabala to all, as opposed to the select few Talmidei Chachamim as until then ?
.
Think about the answers to those questions …..@nomesorah
“You left out 2a 2b 2c 2d 2e 2f 2g and so on. Which is almost all the other Rebbes and other Gedolim putting their weight on the Lubavitcher Rebbe being moshiach…..”
.
Cryptic. What exactly are you referring to ?
.@lostspark
The issue is not “the plus or the minus of learning chasidut” .
The issue is habad theology , its acrobatics , its sources , its merit and its repercussions .
There is nothing to read which will undo those acrobatics .
It is a failed theology .Main point is not “yes kabala not kabala”
Widespread accessibility and delving into kabala is a fact anyway. .
Point to be taken now , is learning and delving into it with an ASSURANCE that one understands it properly , ask questions , come up with answers , bring proofs etc. in an absolute manner like in nigleh . That is mistaken and dangerous , in my view at least .
.
The Gaon says that of all talmidie ARI , only r chaim vital understood the nimshal . Being that the Ari when discoursing about kabala , only said what he wanted to convey , in the form of a mashal , not the nimshal itself .
.
Thats where habad is going haywire . They approach it with the full self assurance typically associated with their other activities .
.
Anything not within our clearly accepted mesorah from our great grandparents, “proven” by habad of the last 70 years , based on kabala , is suspicious.
Refer to my previous post where you can see habad theological acrobatics on display .
Each twist and each turn was at the time supported by myriad “proofs” , with footnotes and what have you . With beautiful convincing language.@CS
Re emuna in Moshe Rabenu –
Gaon from Vilna explains this very simply –
They had Emuna that Moshe’s actions and words were fully grounded in in his Avdut . In the fact that he is merely an Eved ,a servant . With no personal interests , no illusions of personal grandeur. As a result they could rest assured that his message which he brought to the Yidden was pure Dvar HaShem ,unadulterated.
The emuna was not in Moshe . The emuna was in his Avdut.@ nomesorah
…. classical pitfalls of learning Kabbalah apply here. Chabad ignores practical Kabbalah which was the downfall of Sabbtai Tzvi and others. They are not studying the intense devotions that risk ones mental state. It isn’t really much different than other groups hashkafos ……
.
You are either not getting it or ignoring on purpose . Would suggest you reread the relevant post slowly and carefully …..@ Nomesorah
The break over theology was first . Their breaking observance was a REACTION to our rejection of their theology .
Inform yourself.Vilna Gaon has an explanation on Emuna in Moshe.
Runs opposite to what habad would want it to be .Lets look at the history , the reality , the facts – The official Chabad line as publicized by their rebbe , their chozer , their rabbanim , their Mashpiim FROM THE START ,not any Harry who claims to be Chabad — Ok ?
Lets be honest without any obfuscation and changing the topic .
In the beginning , [1] the line was -Anyone who claims that Chabad claims to be messianic is a plain liar , against chasidus , mechalel shem lubavitsh etc , Only the Mitnagdim who tried to besmirch Lubavitsh said so , and it was an indication of their blind hate . Other Chasidim stuck up for Lubavitsh as the innocent victim of Hotsaat Shem Ra. All the evidence is there , in the archives of HaModia and Kfar Chabad and other newspapers of that era.
Then [2] it changed , Chabad Chassidim made a u turn , openly proclaimed their rebbe as Mashiach , but the rebbe openly criticized it . He definitely is not Mashiach . Here too, the evidence is plainly there in all the newspapers of the era . Then [3] he too followed in their u turn , openly acknowledged his own messiahship , clearly evidenced by his periodic near weekly dvar malchus dating from approx 6 months preceding his stroke in the spring of 1992 , until the stroke , also available in the archives, as well the weekly issues of the kfar chabad newspaper the official chabad public organ. . In the meantime [3A] he also proclaimed himself a navi , like chagai zecharia and malachi . Nevua ,after a hiatus of thousands of years ,has finally come back to klal yisrael. b’h. Also clearly documented in dvar malcus [parshas shoftim] . Quite a big u turn , when you compare no 1 – with no 3A. It s not finished yet , because then [3B] as Nevua [!] he proclaimed that Mashiach is here already now kipshuto and will take us bekarov out of galus , and that we are in the first generation of the geula. So as a result there was a wall to wall coallition of all official chabad mashpiiim and Rabbanim saying that [4] it is one of ikarei emuna to believe and follow a navi plus their rebbi is a navi plus he prophesied on himself that he is mashiach plus it is one of the ikarei emuna that mashiach has to finish the geula before he dies . One plus one plus one plus one – equals four . Result – it is one of the ikarei emuna that their rebbi CANNOT die before the finish of the geula . Not me , not I am saying this , This was OFFICIAL Chabad theology. Evidence is there . Its all in the archives . Read kfar Chabad weekly , sichos of r yoel kahn . Sichos and articles of mendel wechter , of r ashkenazi rav of kfar chabad [the town], signed kol koreis of virtually all rabbanim of chabad kehillot.
Then [5] the unthinkable happened . He died. The minority, including yoel kahn , stayed with their previous belief that mashiach must finish the geula before he dies [the normative Jewish belief as clearly delineated by the RMBN , Rabenu Moshe ben NACHMAN in sefer havikuach] so they jettisoned the nevua parts . They admitted in being mistaken [!] in that . Here it is not sure where exactly [in their own eyes] they went wrong .. but never mind. The majority however [6] could not bring themselves to throw the navi part out of the window , so they jettisoned the dying part . No, they proclaimed loudly, mashiach can die before he finishes the job . What previously was considered part of the ikarei emuna, is now hevel havalim , or depending on a machloket , where everyone can choose what they like , whats convenient for them .
My question is – who needs to argue against Habad Theology any more , when Habad themselves are doing such a splendid work ?
Caveat – They are wonderful people ,just theologically mistaken .You misunderstood me . Am not taking issue with habad learning nistar , perse.
Am only trying to explain the tendency in Habad to advocate for all types of convenient [for them] but outlandish theological ideas.
Am only tracing the dots .@Qwerty
No delusions to get anyone to change –
This is a correct observation – Mentioned before that Habad Hassidim are explicitly instructed by their rebbe the following :
In every argument you should act with Ahavat yisrael , manners and respect . But in your own mind , in your own pnimiyut , you should give credence to your opponents arguments , LESS THAN KLIPAT HASHUM .
So the habad hassidim who would be swayed by any of your arguments are in direct contradiction to their own rebbi . Totally untenable.
Are they special people ? Meaning :good , sincere ,non judging, accepting, joyful , ready for mesirat nefsh ? Most definitely .
Is their theology sorely mistaken ? Most definitely .
Both of those statements are not contradictory. Not at all .Hello ….
1]Question remains – Baal Hatanya is not called Nosi Hador . Neither is the Mitteler . Nor the tsemach Tseddeq. Not the Rashab.
Not the Habad Rebbeim from the other dynasties . Niyezin and Liadi etc.
2] many people coming …. is not an answer to anything. I know many people following many things which not necessarily are right and/ or correct ….For thousands of years – since matan torah – we had one thing and one thing only- in our public domain. Nigleh . Even though Nistar is an integral part of the torah , it was not in the public domain . this started to change from the time of the publication of the Zohar , the earlier Mekubalim, the Ari and his disciples , but was mainly popularised since the advent of the Baal Shem and his talmidim .Now i want to posit a theory which may get some of you up in arms , but I think may be correct.
The reason why the Baal Shem [and disciples] popularised it ,was to rejuvenate the Avodat HaShem of its learners , to bring a fire , a life into them . Which was lacking previously . In which they succeeded.
So the purpose of that limud was not as a kiyum of mitsvat talmud torah and yediat hatorah, rather for its EFFECTS ON ITS LEARNERS
But not in order that they should become experts in the ‘Dak al Dak understanding’ of Nistar in the real , true and accurate sense , like klal yisrael was in limud nigleh for all the centuries since matan torah.
Habad was the only one which took it a step further . The early habad Rebeim advocated for their followers to delve into Nistar as close as possible to the real ‘dak al dak understanding ‘.
But that was , in my humble opinion at least, also only in order to further their Avodat Hashem .FOR ITS EFFECTS ON ITS LEARNERS, For exactly the same reason as the other talmidei baal shem .
What followed, when the generations passed, was , the emergence of an ‘illusion’ in habad that they do have a true and accurate dak al dak understanding of nistar , of its terminology , of what its words really mean , in the EXACT SAME WAY klal yisrael did for the last 3333 years in nigleh. Nigleh ,which was not only learned for its results on the learner , but for a clear absolute understanding of the torah
Therefore , considering this background , it is much easier in habad to use all types of nistar for ‘proofs’ for any outlandish new theory one would want to advance , convinced as they are that they are true conveyors of the accurate understanding of nistar .
They [and we] should remember that the true purpose of its limud was meant FOR THE EFFECTS ON ITS LEARNERS , not for a true and foolproof accuracy, which can afterwards be used to try and be medame milsa lemilsa , etc. because the true and accurate understanding remains elusive even if explained and packaged in the nicest and most appealing wrapping paper .
I think that this is a fault line between habad and the rest of klal yisrael.
Not the only one . One of the fault lines.@arso
Thanks .
Btw. When you think about it – the ‘double language’ employed [numerous times] when discussing the Shver [Frierdiker Rebbe] and their present Rebbe, serves the same purpose .
A hunch only , have no proof for it .
But there is a clear pattern .@qwerty
LOL.No one has explained the “constant glitching” of Habad theologically . Since the last rebbe took the mantle of leadership, that is . It seems like there was a constant ‘probing’ of the temperature , how far one can go , and still be accepted [by the chassidim and mainly] in the wider orthodox community. So what we ended up with was a sort of gradual ‘Climate Change’ .
slowly [and surely] the public was conditioned to accept one ‘chidddush’ , preparing the way for the acceptance of the next one.
Reminds me – lehavdil – of the gradual Judicial Revolution by the Israeli Supreme Court from 1992 onwards [, with apparent success].
If they would introduce their ‘end chidush’ at the beginning , they would be greeted by howls of outrage .
But over the years the public’s mind was conditioned , step by step.“….The hope that the people of the world will recognize that they’re under the reshus of the tzaddik.”
.
This is terrible . The Baal Hatanye was not Nosi HaDor . Nor was the Baal shem Tov . None of them were called by that title .
This is a RECENT Habad appellation to their leader , putting him above everyone else . They are trying to acclimatize all of us , our [gullible] minds into slowly accepting his so called “malchus” .
He is what he is . the leader of the habad chassidim .
That is an accurate reflection of reality.
The rest is hyperbole or propaganda .
Or Better said – both .@Querty
I am a proper black hatter but admire your courage and honesty.
Have a look at the Boston University School of Theology . Their website ,where they compare habad theology to lehavdil other religions in their beginners faze . Google it.
Eye opening .@nomesorah
Seems like there was an agenda .
Used to defend habad for many years , but made a u turn , in face of the developments over the years .
Still defend habad for all their qualities.
But they are definitely misguided .rav shach crticized habad already in the sixties , it went public in the eighties.
hello ?
in my mind this whole conversation is fruitless [bar one benefit]
Habad followers have been instructed by their rebbe that in all arguments about belief with non habad , to give credence to the other side ‘less than klipat hashum’. Understandably only bedarkei noam , with ahavat yisrael. I saw it printed in the name of their rebbe . In one of their publications . So why would you suspect a bona fide sincere follower to disregard his own rebbes directive ? Whatever you say to him is ….
Tthe only benefit is to balance the argument for the uninitiated .correction-
@sechel
Mitnaged ; let’s have an open no holds barred discussion about the personality , education , formative years , and end of life public pronouncements, including a step by step discussion of all the details of r shimon deutsh s book [and ashkavte drebi of r rivkin hyd
Chassid : No . These details are banned .
Better to concentrate on all the propaganda . About which our manhig said – chazaka al ta’amula she’ena chozeret rekam.
Mitnaged : but about the leaders of all the other groups of Jews you do encourage such an open no holds barred discussion ? What’s the difference ?
Chassid : This question only reveals your ignorance . Our manhig is TOTALLY different to all the other leaders of jews . He is Mashiach . He is greater than Moshe Rabenu . Atsmut umehut of HKBH is resting within his holy Guf [a’l] . How can you even compare ?
.
Which detail mentioned here is incorrect ?@sechel
Mitnaged ; let’s have an open no holds barred discussion about the personality , education , formative years , and end of life propagation of personal self aggrandizement of the founder of your personality cult , including a step by step discussion of all the details of r shimon deutsh s book [and ashkavte drebi of r rivkin hyd
Chassid : No . These details are banned .
Better to concentrate on all the propaganda . About which our manhig said – chazaka al ta’amula she’ena chozeret rekam.
Mitnaged : but about the leaders of all the other groups of Jews you do encourage such an open no holds barred discussion ? What’s the difference ?
Chassid : This question only reveals your ignorance . Our manhig is TOTALLY different to all the other leaders of jews . He is Mashiach . He is greater than Moshe Rabenu . Atsmut umeut of HKBH is resting within his holy Guf [a’l] . How can you even compare ?
.
Which detail mentioned here is incorrect ?Our Greatgrandfathers & mothers were not busy with “candidates” for Mashiach . And nor should we.
Rambam wasnt busy with it . Bet Yosef was not . Rama was not . Baal HaTanya was not . and Ben Ish Chai was not either .
.
Cf Tanya ,were he says [free translation ]
.
WHERE IS THAT NEW MINHAG COMING FROM – SOMETHING OUR FOREFATHERS NEVER KNEW – TO ASK A TSADIK WHERE ONES PARNASAH IS COMING FROM ? THE TSADIK DOESNT KNOW THAT ! LIKE HE DOES NOT KNOW WHO MASHIACH IS , HE ALSO DOES NOT KNOW WHERE A MANS PARNASAH WILL COME FROM AS BOTH OF THOSE THINGS ARE ONE OF THE SEVEN THING WHICH ARE MECHUSIN MIBNE ADAM ! THE ONLY TACHLIT OF GOING TO A TSADIK IS ONLY IN ORDER TO HEAR, WHERE AND HOW THE PETITIONER CAN IMPROVE IN HIS AVODAT HASHEM …..
.
Clear from Tanyas words that all of this is mere speculation , non productive and frowned upon .
.
Again – this thread is another ploy in furthering the ‘candidacy’ of someone whose followers have a vested interest of promoting .This thread is a fig leaf intended to cover
1] for close to neo notsri belief systems
2] for close to neo notsri personal veneration
3] for treating ikarei emuna like socks – to be changed and discarded when convenient .
.
None of the minhagim or kulot of the yeshiva world , irrespective whether they do have merit, or are lacking merit , are touching any of the above issues .
.
So let the objective reader judge for himself – is the intended cover – a cover ?
Or only a “see through cover” , essentially uncovering those 3 problematic issues ?@avira
which sefer – what page ?
it does not negate what I quoted re name of mashiachWHERE IS THAT NEW MINHAG COMING FROM – SOMETHING OUR FOREFATHERS NEVER KNEW – TO ASK A TSADIK WHERE ONES PARNASAH IS COMING FROM ? THE TSADIK DOESNT KNOW THAT ! LIKE HE DOES NOT KNOW WHO MASHIACH IS , HE ALSO DOES NOT KNOW WHERE A MANS PARNASAH WILL COME FROM AS BOTH OF THOSE THINGS ARE ONE OF THE SEVEN THING WHICH ARE MECHUSIN MIBNE ADAM ! THE ONLY TACHLIT OF GOING TO A TSADIK IS ONLY IN ORDER TO HEAR, WHERE AND HOW THE PETITIONER CAN IMPROVE IN HIS AVODAT HASHEM …..
.
Sounds quite MITNAGDISH , no ?
As mentioned in previous post – this is written by the founder of Habad Hasidut !
.
Habad hasidim are not taken aback by this . Because if their Rebbe is greater than Moshe Rabenu , why should he not be greater than the Baal Hatanya ?
.
So the lesson to be learnt is – Absolute futility to bring proof or debate a Habad Hasid on theology . simply because their rebbe [in their own eyes] is greater than any source which could be used to prove or disprove his shita.
Debating them is an exercise in futility.
We should love them , respect them , but not debate them .This whole thread is a reflection of modern Habads influence and brainwash .
our Greatgrandfathers & mothers were not busy with “candidates” for Mashiach . And nor should we.
Rambam wasnt busy with it . Bet Yosef was not . Rama was not . Baal HaTanya was not . and Ben Ish Chai was not either .
.
Cf Tanya ,were he says [free translation ]
.
WHERE IS THAT NEW MINHAG COMING FROM – SOMETHING OUR FOREFATHERS NEVER KNEW – TO ASK A TSADIK WHERE ONES PARNASAH IS COMING FROM ? THE TSADIK DOESNT KNOW THAT ! LIKE HE DOES NOT KNOW WHO MASHIACH IS , HE ALSO DOES NOT KNOW WHERE A MANS PARNASAH WILL COME FROM AS BOTH OF THOSE THINGS ARE ONE OF THE SEVEN THING WHICH ARE MECHUSIN MIBNE ADAM ! THE ONLY TACHLIT OF GOING TO A TSADIK IS ONLY IN ORDER TO HEAR, WHERE AND HOW THE PETITIONER CAN IMPROVE IN HIS AVODAT HASHEM …..
.
Clear from Tanyas words that all of this is mere speculation , non productive and frowned upon .
But who cares about tanya anymore …. We will cherry-pick only what suits us …..The BIGGEST SOURCE – IN HABADS EYES – That Mashiach is only from the live people is HABAD ITSELF . Wall to wall , pre 1996.
Since when is Habad itself , not acceptable to Habad ????
Any Answers , anyone ?????@menachem
Not trying at all –
merely relaying information EXACTLY as I heard it .
not more and not less .
read all the maasiyot he writes – it is definitely possible , maybe even probable.@sechel
Correction – not pre 96 .
It should read pre 94 instead.@Sechel
I am still waiting for a Habad chassid to be honest and acknowledge that Mashiach from Chaim only , was ‘official Habad Policy’ ,supported and endorsed by ALL HABAD RABBANIM AND MASHPIIM pre that fateful 3 tamuz day .
.
It seems that ‘phaiphing on the world’ includes phaiphing on ‘habad pre 1996’ too ?
Habad pre 96 also qualifies as Habad – or not ?
.
If that was good for Habad pre 96, than it is also good for the rest of Klal Yisrael ….
.This whole thread is a reflection of modern Habads influence and brainwash .
our Greatgrandfathers & mothers were not busy with “candidates” for Mashiach . And nor should we.
Rambam wasnt busy with it . Bet Yosef was not . Rama was not . Baal HaTanya was not . and Ben Ish Chai was not either .
.
Cf Tanya ,were he says [free translation ]
.
WHERE IS THAT NEW MINHAG COMING FROM – SOMETHING OUR FOREFATHERS NEVER KNEW – TO ASK A TSADIK WHERE ONES PARNASAH IS COMING FROM ? THE TSADIK DOESNT KNOW THAT ! LIKE HE DOES NOT KNOW WHO MASHIACH IS , HE ALSO DOES NOT KNOW WHERE A MANS PARNASAH WILL COME FROM AS BOTH OF THOSE THINGS ARE ONE OF THE SEVEN THING WHICH ARE MECHUSIN MIBNE ADAM ! THE ONLY TACHLIT OF GOING TO A TSADIK IS ONLY IN ORDER TO HEAR, WHERE AND HOW THE PETITIONER CAN IMPROVE IN HIS AVODAT HASHEM …..
.
Clear from Tanyas words that all of this is mere speculation , non productive and frowned upon .
But who cares about tanya anymore …. We will cherry-pick only what suits us …..@ avira
He would quote tanya without reservation.
So – Not Mitnaged to hasidut .
Maybe to present Day Habad , – yes .@menachem
Heard from Gur Hasidim that the many Sipurim from Rayats are sourced from what he heard when very young from the women who tended to him in those years , and hence are unreliable.
Anyways ,satmar rav used to mock those who based their belief on maasiyot.Habad are really Nice guys .
But it is totally ridiculous .
Such a Pity.Edited
people who can blithely change what to them was one of the ikarei emunah to suit themselves, never had an ounce of emunah. Not beforehand and not afterwards.
WELL SAID !
@Zaphod
they are an integral part bec they believe in ikarei emuna and are mizera yisrael , but in way of thinking , how to develop an argument , what is considered a valid argument , what is not considered a valid argument,
and MOST IMPORTANTLY whether we can and should be choker after someone who was controversial [meaning some rabbanim disapproved of him ] COUPLED with the fact that part of his yerousha ruchanit was controversial , and should you be choker whether those two thing are connected or not – in that there is no common ground whatsoever .