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Goldilox: I am rude to anyone who claims to be part of a chassidus that’s all about “moshiach” yet 99% have no clue about any of the halachos (Ie, they think Moshiach can come from the dead)
Goldilocks: Third Option: Or I learnt the gemaros and halachos that tell us certain people CANNOT be Moshiach.
Halacha isn’t foolish. (But you seem to be.)Defend Chabad: I’m not insinuating it, I’m saying it straight out.
Now your turn to answer: Do you think the Rebbe cannot err?
“One nation under one Rebbe…”
Was his name YESHU???
Hashem Yeracheim. Avoda Zarah. Now of course Sechel Hayashar and Milhouse will defend it….
More proof that Zimroni Tzik shr”y – who was celebrated and mourned on MAINSTREAM Chabad websites was an elokist: From Crownheights info:
“Just a week after we published the protest of a Rabbi in the Chabad community in Melbourne, Rabbi Tzvi Telsner against a handful of depraved and shameless individuals who disguise themselves as Chassidim, that took it upon themselves to cancel the fast of Asara B’Teves and to celebrate it as a holiday – Rabbi Gedalia Axelrod, Chabad Rabbi in Haifa, a letter unprecedented in its sharpness against these groups who willfully shame themselves in Chabads name.
Two days later a second letter followed with Rabbi Axelrod calling not to attend an event that Zimroni Tzik is organizing for Tes Shvat, saying that he was told personally that Tzik has a custom to eat on fast days and though he doesn’t recommend other do so, rather he refers them to certain Sichos of the Rebbe and tells them to draw their own conclusions.
The following is a translation of the letter to Zimroni Tzik:
In the matter of the keness Mr. Zimroni Tzik would like to hold on [Sunday] 9 Shevat in the auditorium at Tel Aviv University, following my letter of yesterday I hereby notify the congregation that I spoke today with two prominent Chabad figures shlita, and they told me they personally heard Mr. Zimroni say he eats on Asoroh Beteves and the other fasts Chazal established, and when people ask how they should conduct themselves he does not instruct them to follow his example, but refers them the holy sichos and tells them to examine them in order to determine what to do, Rachmono litzlan.
Likewise he has done away with Simon 131 in Orech Chaim, Rachmono litzlan, removing Nefilas Apoyim from his tefilloh. In general, he holds that neither a rov nor the Shulchon Oruch determines his conduct.
Advertisement:I can attest that his hashkofoh regarding emunoh in the Oneness of Hashem Yisborach contains heresy and apikorsus, like that of his close friend, Mr. Shmuel Frummer.
Since loyal Chabad members are influenced by him and some have fallen into severe decline as a result, he is considered ‘machti es harabbim’ and is the greatest enemy of Melech Hamoshiach.
His ways are closely reminiscent of the cult of Shabsai Tzvi, sheim reshoim yirakev, and where it may lead, no one can know.
According to halochoh, he should be excommunicated – cherem and niddui – if he does not repent, and he must be removed from our community. As such, with a torn and burning heart I hereby issue a call to carefully avoid these evildoers.
Under no circumstances should one attend the above mentioned keness, which is the exact opposite of gatherings of tzaddikim.
Because not a single rabbi is participating in his event, he has invited the illustrious Rav Kalmanson shlita from the US to speak at the event, and I hereby urge him to avoid the event, and he will receive great reward for doing so.”
End Article.
First, we see that this Tzik was a rasha who didn’t beleive in Achdus Hashem. Yet he is celebrated and praised on COLLIVE, CHABAD INFO, and BEIS MOSHIACH.
Second, we see that Axelrod, the writer of this letter, himself is a nutjob Meshichist: He wrote: “Since loyal Chabad members are influenced by him and some have fallen into severe decline as a result, he is considered ‘machti es harabbim’ and is the greatest enemy of Melech Hamoshiach.” No, “Rabbi” Axelrod, he is the greatest enemy of Hashem.
Furthermore, many Collive commentators brought proof of Tzik’s “greatness” in comments from ztories of the Rebbe, proving the Rebbe wasn’t as “all-knowing” as some in Chabad think he is.
BTW: Elokistim are celebrated on mainstream CHabad websites. No negative comments are allowed when they die. Only when Litvishe gedolim die.
Unlike any other poster here I will prove it:
Zimroni Tzik shr”y was a Chabad shaliach in Bat Yam who was an open elokist. From failed Messiah (this is backed up in other places as well:“Rabbi Tzik Zimroni, perhaps the most extreme of the extreme Chabad messianists, has launched a campaign with some as-yet-unnamed US Chabad rabbis. Stewards and Stewardesses will visit bars in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem tonight, offering free drinks to patrons who will come with them to hear a presentation on the “Rebbe King Messiah May He Live Forever And Ever” from some US Chabad rabbis. All this to celebrate the Rebbe’s 13th yartzeit Tuesday – a yartzeit Zimroni and others do not observe because they believe the Rebbe did not pass away.
Official Chabad condemns this bizarre, cult-like program and, in truth, I know that Zimroni is despised by most of Chabad – even by open Chabad messianists.
In 1994 at a massive anti-terror rally in Jerusalem. Zimroni and his cohorts passed out thousands of full color glossy newspapers with the headline, “Long Live Our Master, Our Teacher, Our CREATOR, The King Messiah Forever And Ever!” I spent most of that rally going to NRP leaders from the Old City, telling them this was not Chabad’s policy and recruiting them to gather up and destroy as many of these newspapers as possible. Even local Chabad messianists helped gather and destroy them.
So I find it hard to blame Chabad for anything Zimroni does.”
End article.
And from the JC:
“A new schism emerged last week in the Lubavitch movement in Israel following reports that one of the leaders of its “messianic” stream had stopped fasting on days marking the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.Rabbi Gedalya Axelrod, a leading Lubavitch rabbi in Haifa, published a letter last week saying that “according to halachah”, Rabbi Zimroni Tzik, who runs the Chabad House in Bat Yam, should be excommunicated.
Rabbi Tzik’s sin, according to Rabbi Axelrod, is that he does not observe the fast days commemorating the events leading up to the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. Rabbi Tzik is also accused of not observing other daily rituals of mourning for the lost Temple.
The Bat Yam Chabad House is one of the main centres of the messianic stream in Lubavitch and Rabbi Tzik and his followers are alleged to believe that the Messiah has already arrived and therefore the rituals of mourning are no longer necessary.
A similar group in Australia was also excommunicated two weeks ago by a senior Lubavitch rabbi in Melbourne.
In his letter, Rabbi Axelrod called upon the public not to attend a ceremony organised by Rabbi Tzik on Sunday in Tel Aviv. Despite his call, hundreds of Chasidim and dozens of rabbis attended.
There has been a de-facto split in Lubavitch since the death of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, in 1994, between those who acknowledged his death and those who cling to the belief that the Rebbe is the Messiah and therefore cannot be dead.
While efforts have been made to paper over these differences, Lubavitch is to all purposes today a collection of factions.
The excommunications in Israel and Australia were both announced by rabbis themselves belonging to the messianic group and it is thought that they are trying to curb the more radical excesses of their co-adherents.
Many Lubavitch leaders around the world maintain that the messianic stream is a small minority but, in private, sources within the movement admit that a sizable proportion of Lubavitchers, especially in Israel, ascribe to messianic views.
Rabbi Tzik refused to comment.”
End Article.
So this guy is a nutcase Rasha, plain and simple. Yet, on Collive, they had an article mourning his death with not one negative comment!!: (unfortunately I cannot post links so I will reprint the whole article)
“Rabbi Zimroni Tzik, a rabbi of the Bat Yam, Israel community, passed away on Wednesday, 16 Sivan, 5778.
He was 69.
In 1974, Rabbi Tzik opened the Chabad House in Bat Yam and spread Judaism throughout the city. In 1979, he opened Yeshivas Hadar Hatmimim, a Yeshiva for new Baalei Teshuva.
Born into a traditional Jewish family, as a child his parents sought a religious summer camp for him, and sent him to the camp in Kfar Chabad, Israel. In his youth, he studied at the Nechalim yeshiva and also in the Lithuanian Yeshivat HaNegev in Netivot, under Rabbi Yissachar Meir.
In 5727 he was drafted into the army, and while he was in a squad commanders’ course, the Six-Day War broke out. Rabbi Tzik was sent to the Egyptian front, where he met Rabbi Aharon Tenenbaum, who was then a reservist, and together they learned a chapter from the Tanya. Rabbi Tzik visited the yeshiva where he studied Chasidus with the bochurim, and since that visit, every Shabbat he was allowed to leave the base, he would come to Kfar Chabad.
After his marriage, he began teaching in the non-Chabad Nechalim Yeshiva, and began teaching his students about Chabad and Chasidus, which the Yeshiva did not approve, and he was soon asked to resign.
At that time, his boyhood friend Rabbi Dovid Nachshon suggested he go to visit the Rebbe in New York.
When he arrived in 770, he wrote to the Rebbe that he wanted to work to cover the expenses of the trip, but the Rebbe replied that “he should do according to the advice of the yeshiva’s management.” The yeshiva leadership decided that, according to the Rebbe, he should join the yeshiva “Tomchei Temimim Lubavitch Central Yeshiva” in the framework of the “Kollel” in 1971. Thus he found himself a student in the “Kevutza” after his marriage.
After returning to Israel, he returned to Bat Yam and began to work as a teacher in the Aderet yeshiva, which operated in a similar format to Nachalim Yeshiva, and when the students soon became interested in Chabad, he was also fired from there.
In the summer of 5733 he offered his friends the idea of opening a library where they would give Torah lessons and operate a shop selling religious objects. He called Rabbi Hodakov, the Rebbe’s secretary, and suggested the idea.
Rabbi Hodakov clarified what was planned for operating the library, and all the details, during the entire conversation, the Rebbe himself was listening on the line.Rabbi Hodakov was interested in whether this would be done with great publicity, and how they would reach a large number of people. Rabbi Tzik suggested that they visit all the summer camps in the city and teach about the five Mivtzoim (at the time), and permission was received.
At the opening of the library Chabad House, flyers were distributed about mezuzahs, distribution of charity boxes, and other Mivtzoim. In a short time, local newspapers began to publish positive reports about their activities.
In 5739 he opened the Yeshivat Hadar HaTimim in Bat Yam for young Ba’alei Teshuvah, which was active until the year 5742. He was a member of the organization of the Rambam’s Tzemach celebrations. And in 1987 he organized the third “Rambam” celebration in Israel, held at the “Binyanei HaUma” in Jerusalem.
In the month of Iyar, 5778, Rabbi Tzik suffered a severe stroke, and many recited Tehilim and prayed for his recovery, in Israel and around the world. A few weeks later, he passed away at the age of 69.
He was survived by his wife, sons and daughter: Rabbi Chaim Tzik – Bat Yam, Rabbi Meir Tzik – Jerusalem, Rabbi Levi Yitzchak Tzik – Kfar Chabad, Rabbi Shneur Zalman Tzik – Kfar Chabad, and Mrs. Boroshansky – Kiryat Malachi, Israel.
His funeral will take place at 15:00 from the Chabad synagogue in Sderot Ha’atzmaut, 67 Bat Yam, and at 16:30 in the cemetery of the settlement of Ahiezer.
Baruch Dayan Ha’emes.”
End Article.
So, by Chabad, the biggest reshaim get praiseworthy articles when they die, with NO negative comments, but when Gedolim and Torah-true tzadikim die, they get insulted and shamed.
One of the biggest sign of rishus is one who praises evil and criticizes good, and (some of the influental) Chabad has been found guilty of that. (This obviously does not apply to all chabad etc etc, but there are evil elements.)
I just SAW it for myself:
Typical Chabad word salad by someone with sever cognitive dissonance.THE REBBE IS NOT MOSHIACH. HE NEVER WILL BE. ITS 25 YEARS. FACE THE FACTS.
So: Defend Chabad: Is the Rebbe the Moshiach: YES OR NO? If it’s not a clear unequivocal no, there’s something off in your yiddishkeit. There’s nothing wrong with being chabad (at all!) but there IS something wrong in changing yiddishkeit to meet your emotional need to believe a dead person as moshiach.
I love this comment by Rav Belsky’s petira:
15. Excuse me! wrote:
Someone that says anything against the Rebbe. And that means anything is mored bmalchus! And going against hashem.. So it doesn’t really matter before he passed away or after if he said something like that. Then a Chabad site should not be posting his passing.. He went against YOUR Rebbe and your fine with posting an article about him?!You will NEVER see such a comment by the litvishers. EVER.
I love this comment by Rav Belsky’s petira:
15. Excuse me! wrote:
Someone that says anything against the Rebbe. And that means anything is mored bmalchus! And going against hashem.. So it doesn’t really matter before he passed away or after if he said something like that. Then a Chabad site should not be posting his passing.. He went against YOUR Rebbe and your fine with posting an article about him?!You will NEVER see such a comment by the litvishers. EVER.
SO anyone who knows the emes: Chabad’s “Ahavas Yisrael” is only as long as they don’t attack chabad. Then they hate him. Just like “Christian Love”.
DEFEND CHABAD read the comments on Crownheightsinfo in regards to Rav Yisroel Belsky’s comments on meshichistim. I found it via google but i cant post a link. Google “yisrael belsky crownheights info” without quotes.
“Chabad forums are 99% a bash-fest on other yidden, primarily gedolim.”
Read CHabadtalk. But its out of date.As regards to the horrific nature of Chabad Comments just read the articles on Crownheightsinfo and Collive by Rav Menashe Kleins petira (who was VERY pro-chabad) just because he didnt accept a certain person as a messiah (you-know who).
I have a Persian friend who can trace himself to Shevet Shimon. He claims many Yazdis can do the same (trace themselves to a shevet not from Yehuda. He also says many Bucharians can do the same.
The pasuk clearly says the Aseres Hashvatim were exiled to Madai, which is Iran. It makes sense that when the Yiddin came to Madai during the Megillah, they reintegrated.David: An eid echad makes it kasher, an eid echad makes it treif. There’s no chezkas kashrus here – it’s a treif hotel!
BLOW THAT WHISTLE! If you don’t, lifnei iver lo sitein michshal.
I was told by many, many people, NEVER go to a hotel that isn’t certified by a national kosher organization – if it’s a minor organization, or simply the town vaad, there’s a good possibility they will be scared to speak out, as hotel certification is a large part of their income. I’m referring especially to those hechsherim that you never see on food, but come pesach, they’re certifying tons of hotels.
Lerntmin: Read this post by me
The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!
Tell me if we’re not basically on the same page – except I think the rebbe was NOT a koifer
And here is where I defend the atzmus sicha (unlike the sukkah sicha, which remains incomprehensible to me.)
The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!
Lerntmin – not quite. I’m in the mir.
If you would have read my post here; https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-world-is-in-a-state-of-geula-and-dont-misunderstand-us/page/30/#post-1646035 you would see my true feelings on chabad.
Just that I don’t like dishinesty, as the Rebbe did not mean to say kefira, and most lubavichers are not kofrim. Even if you don’t understand it, don’t call it kefira, or all chabad kofrim. Just the ones that interpet it wrongly.
Jerusalem, the church story was correct in being censored – many nonjews read this site and we don’t want to make a chillul hashem.
The lakewood story, on the other hand, should not have been censored. The tzibbor has to know what happens when extremists control a frum community and 30-year old immature avreichim ruin a night of hissorerrus that many were looking forward to just because they feel the need gto impose their frumkeit on others.
Avrumi was obviously being sarcastic. Shlita.
CHAOS IN LAKEWOOD: Hundreds of Yeshiva Bochrim Protest After Kosher Bain Hazmanim Event Canceled; Heavy Police Response, Arrest Made.
What was supposed to be a pleasant evening of Kosher entertainment for hundreds of Yeshiva Bochrim in Lakewood has turned into night of absolute chaos Sunday night.
The event was going to give the Bochrim currently on Bain Hazmanim a night of entertainment, including live music and singing by Isaac Honig and Beri Weber, along with a Siyum and speeches by several local Mechanichim.
But instead, the event was canceled at the last minute after a small group of people persuaded the Roshei Yeshiva that this event – for Bochrim only – must be stopped at all cost.
The organizer was threatened into canceling, and was shown a “Kol Koreh” that was to be published with his name, banning the event.
The organizers caved, and the event was canceled. Of course, they promise to repay him the nearly $30,000 he lost.
Hundreds of Bochrim were angry as they had already purchased tickets, and decided to make Kumzits/protest at the homes of those who had the event banned
Dozens upon dozens of police officers were mobilized for crowd control, and officers from nearby Jackson, Brick, Manchester and Toms River were requested. K9 unites were on scene.
As of this posting there has been a confirmed arrest. 3 boys were treated after being pepper sprayed.
What could of been a beautiful, calm event for those boys that needed it, turned into a colossal Chillul Hashem.
Sources tell YWN that the same people that had a Kol Koreh issued telling people to boycott and not advertise on recently constructed billboards in Lakewood — without ever caling the proprietor who invested hundreds of thousands of dollars on them — are the same individuals behind this latest ban.
theres the full text. lets see if the CR lets it through…
Lerntmin: Quote from you on a different subject:
“The #1 rule of debating is to understand your opponent’s viewpoint so you can refute it.”
Mmm hmm. Chabad being the exception?
Lerntmin, if you would be studying a ketzois now, great! But you’re not! Rather, youre wasting time here in the CR – On the Chabad Thread!
So surely you can look into what they really hold…
Rampid. I learnt that word by (sic) the chavrusa tumult. While kids were making tumblesauces.
I answered this in the previous thread on CHabad.
Did you read that?
Rso: Better Question: What did Talmidim of the Lubavitcher Rebbe do, considering he is NOT a ben acher ben from Dovid Hamelech.
In defense of the Rebbe zatzal, it’s quite clear that he never intended kefira ch”v , and great gedolim still visited him after the sicha. Most chabadnks don’t understand the sicha in a radical way, and the rebbe clearly says in the sicha, if you understand it in a way thats apikursus, then its better you dont learn it!
So Lamir Lernin Torah, you’re being intellectually dishonest by calling it kefira, by saying the rebbe meant kefira ch”v! BTW, there’s similar language in Kedushas Levi and Likutei Mohoran, where they’re held of by everybody!
LLT, most people had much bigger problems with sukka (discussed in a previous thread) and meshichists (also discussed). Atzmus is almost never understood in a kefiradike way by true lubaviche chassidim, as the rebbe explicitly instructed.
BTW, its bothering me that YWN CR is becoming the bash chabad site. 90% of all chabadnikim are good shomrei torah umitzvois.
In regards to if someone should join chabad, if it helps him get closer to Hashem – bemakom shelibo chafetz – he should definitely join.
A very good – but very biased and sarcastic – resource is על התורה ועל התמורה. Google it. A number of websites have scans.
RSo – Miscite is 100% a real word. Google it.
Chossid: Please do. If you can speak to the shliach there to ask him to remove it, I’d appreciate it. When I spoke to him, he just thoughtI was another chabad-hating snag.
The OU should not be certifying this. Period. But they used to certify Glatt Kosher strip clubs until they got pressured, so maybe lets apply some pressure?
They still have Avi Weiss’s shul as part of their org, so they obviously dont really care too much about toras hashem. I’m not sure why people still rely on them for kashrus if they think the torah is a joke.
As I asked the OU head after they told Avi Weiss that he has four years to fire the woman rabbis, “Does the OU give companies that have traif 4 years to get rid of it?”
“like you agree that accusing us to be davening to the Rebbe, is false.” – @Chossid
I’m aware of a Chabad house where there’s a big (as in HUGE) picture of the Rebbe on the Mizrach Vant. Anyone who flies from Israel can confirm this – it’s in Ben Gurion airport. People make minyanim there all the time, contrary to halacha.
Im also aware of people who daven to the rebbe. So it’s Lashon Hara (assuming your even part of Amcha) and not Motzei Shem Ra.
Anyways, isn’t this the second thread on this subject? Once is enough.
@Sechel – I have heard this from lubavichers that there exists such a minyan in Indineapolis, among other places. It seems to be more common by russian baalei tshuvas and certain sefardim than mainstream chabad though.
And I know and have mishpacha in chabad.
Don’t forget the infamous Haaretz article with Sokolovsky (author of the defunct RebbeGod blog rl”tz) and the Tzfat yeshiva. And the beis mashiach article.It’s not sinas chinam when there are elements of kefira in chabad – at least until there exists a kol koreh denouncing the movement.
Attention Sechel Hayashar, Username, if your out there:
Someone pointed out to me that there are rishoinei Asheknaz who held that it was assur for most people to wear tefillin, because they were too holy for the roiv am. This is at least a basis that it is permissible to hold of the Rebbe’s shita by sukkah (and no problem of kfira, unlike Rso) .However, this same person told me that he personally witnissed in Indeanappolis a whole minyan of meshichists davening towards a picture of the rebbe (this is a chabadnik I trust implicitly, and he is not making it up). So as long as chabad doesn’t disavow this mashiach nonsense (which often leads to a”z) I’m still not joining.
Wait till the next siyum hashas, and interrupt his speech.
CS: Don’t want to reopen this, but rereading this, you seem to have confirmed my very first claim – that some Chabadniks replace Hashem with the Rebbe, a la the Rambam in Avoda Zara. While SY and Username still seem to be full-fledged maaminim, you seem to have written yourself out with that last comment. Unless you’d like to clarify?
Also Cup-K.
I left this thread when my purpose was accomplished – proving that many chabadniks have kefira beliefs in regards to the rebbe (see my many posts proving that.) Yet CS kept excusing them. If she’s willing to give an answer with sources (instead of “thats not what they mean”) I’ll reconsider.