23 Responses

1. But to convince Lapid to drop his boycott of the Hareidim. Their minimum price would be ending yeshiva deferements or abolishing subsidies for yeshivos.

   The only response to a demand for an end to exempting yeshiva students that has any chance of wining over the secular parties is to propose abolishing conscription, and rely on significant economic incentives to encourage enlistment and service in the reserves,

2. inquiring minds want to know. Were the gedolim asked before the boycott was made.

3. If true, they’ve been totally irresponsible in this process. They upended the Knesset and now the govt is in full chaos without a clear leader. They incited Lieberman. There’s a reason why in pirke avos it says Not to be too involved in politucs. The brisker and traditional yerushalmi shitah of not getting involved in the Knesset is being proven right, time after time.

4. How could anyone trust these politicians again if they cut a deal with Lapid? What has changed since they told the Gedolei Yisroel that Lapid was out the destroy the Charedim? Feh on them for bringing down the government.

5. Big deal. All these shenenagans are rather meaningless public relation ploys.

6. they will lose all face with the chareidi public then, next time people wont bother to vote at all and follow the instructions of gedolim. next time there will be more Arabs than chareidim in the Knesset.

7. lakewhut,

   Please, especially in Elul, do not be mevazeh the Chazon Ish , Maran Rav Shach and all the Gedolim that paskened that it is a chiyuv to vote and to have Frum parties in the Knesset.
   It is a machlokes of Gedolim.

8. the shita not to get involved is difficult to understand. the State is a reality that cannot be ignored. Years ago we were a small minority and we had to fend for ourselves anyway. Now the State is around for close to eighty years and we are 20% of the population and growing. How can we put our heads in the sand? We must fight for our rights and also influence all the seculars. We will win if we fight and it’s only through voting. So many Gedolim agree.

9. Lakewut-do you realize how dumb your argument is? The shitah of not getting involved in politics means that you have just disabled yourself. It’s like someone wants to beat you up and you say “I don’t want to get involved” and then you let him. Afterwards you complain about how the guy beat you up. Perhaps if those chareidim who boycott the elections would all vote then they would be in a better position to not have to make concessions (or at least less of them)

10. The liberal parties want to dissolve Israel spiritually and physically. The want to recognize the false “conversions” of the reform and conservative. They want to do away with the Chief Rabbinate. They want to give away more land and power to Arab movements.

11. Yes, gedolim are constantly being consulted by Gafni.
    If it’s true, the best part about this move is that the haredi parties have nothing to lose and Lapid has everything to lose. If the haredi parties are able to cut a deal with Lapid, then Lapid is proven that he doesn’t stand by his promises, and loses votes next time. Haredim promised not to sit with Lapid? (1) No promises and (2) Hardim will always vote for the haredim, especially when you have someone as big as Rav Chaim constantly telling everyone it’s a mitzvah to vote for Gimmel, so no net losses in votes.

12. Unless Blue & White wants to split, the UTJ/Shas has to do deal with either Lapid or Liberman. If they went with Lapid, Blue & White + Labor/Meretz + UTJ/Shas would be 61. It would give full power to Gantz (no Charedi MK is trying to be PM nor is the Left in any position to think it’ll be given to them), totally upend Netanyahu (which would be a valuable trading chip to Labor and B/W whose basic campaign was moving on from Netanyahu). Basically, it would be a dream scenario for Gantz as all he would need to do is monetary concessions to Yungerleit etc., not change the status quo in matters of Halacha, and he’d also be able to keep a relatively moderate perspective on security etc. b/c he could legitimately say that if pushed too far on concession to Palestinians, his coalition would crumble, to be replaced by a right-wing coalition. Not to mention, it would make Liberman look bad.
    The downside is who knows how long this lasts. Secondly, the right-wing Religious Parties + Likud are quite friendly with Charedi parties, not likely to change. Not to mention, they likely can get back to power post-Netanyahu in the near future. It could make sense for Charedim to ask for example that Netanyahu get pardoned in exchange for joining as a Hakares HaTov, not to mention that it would not burn the bridge with joining Likud in the future. Sort of a clean slate, a non-Netanyahu gov’t, Netanyahu can move on freely, and everything stays relatively status quo. Charedim as peacemakers wouldn’t be a bad headline.

13. In politics, there is no such thing as hypocrisy, just pragmatism. Rather than being marginalized and risking the NIS to their mosdos, Shaas and UT seem desperate enough to consider dragging the Rav into the gutter with them to provide political cover. We have all known that it would be relatively easy to structure a draft deferral process involving some form of alternative public service that would allow all the serious learners to stay in Kollel and the feaux shteigers to perhaps work 20 hours a week in a hospital or other mosdos in lieu of having to serve in the IDF. This would allow Lapid and Litzman (the ultimate “odd couple) to sit together in a coalition and sing a yiddeshe version of Kumbayah with a straight face.

14. @lakewhut
    was it also the brisker shitah for the hamon am to get involved in “choosing winners & losers” in machlokesim of gedoley yisroel? i think not

15. It should also be remembered that a Gantz led government, without religious or right of center support would be dependent on votes from the Palestinian “nationalist” (though some are Communist or Islamists rather than nationalist) bloc, and that wold pose problems. If you look at politics of the 1960 and early 1970s, “Blue and white” have been part of what eventually became Likud, as was Lieberman, meaning the “Right” has about 80 seats, and the “Left” which in Ben Gurion’s day have 80-90 seats is barely able to claim a dozen.

16. CTRebbe I said not getting too ijvolved with politics. Learn to read. Pirkei Davis says it.

17. Do people realize that Netanyahu is the best PM they ever had(10 years shows)? Who’d vote to go backwards?

18. Perhaps the Trumpkopf should simply tweet that the U.S. will move its embassy back to Tel Aviv unless Bobo is retained as the PM AND the King David hotel is renamed as the King Donald Hotel.

19. Regarding politics and the current victors, whatever the rabbi says goes.

    We want to keep religious laws in place and at the same time, we want a coalition that will let israel keep its religious identity (not the extreme weirdos), and at the same time, promote curriculum into religious schools that will help people get Into college and get careers and businesses…
    No more handouts, no more free money, israel has to be educated and working and we need a united coalition that can make it work on all sides..

    No working on shabbat, no services on shabbat, keep the current Jewish identities so this may work out..
    We want opportunities not to enforce something onto the people that they do not want and transform our derelict religious communities.

20. The bottom line that no Hareidi politican can support a government that wants to conscript Hareidim, and especially one that wants to conscript yeshiva students and/or women. Other issues such as public laws governing “coercing” secular Jews and goyim (and many Israeli seculars are not Jewish, no matter what they or the government thing) to act more religious than they prefer, and funding frum institution, are negotiable. But conscription is non-negotiable.

    And for the secularist politicians, including Lapid and Lieberman, conscripting all Hareidim including yeshiva students, and perhaps women, is also non-negotiable. THEREFORE, the only way you can have a government that gets Hareidim and the extreme (from out perspective) secularists to both support it, is to find a policy in which the same conscription policy applies to Hareidim as everyone else, and does not conscript Hareidim – AND THE ONLY SOLUTION that meets that criteria is to abolish conscription and switch to a professional/volunteer military.

21. If you want to get frei Jews (including goyim with Jewish ancestors) to not using transit and not eating treff and not marrying whomever they want, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM. They will never agree, they control Israel’s economy, and legal system, and political system, and are very well armed. And no one else in the world, except for frum Jews, will ahve the least bit of sympathy.

    On the other hand, demanding an end to conscription, which is what virtually all modern democracies have done, will gain great support both from non-frum Israelis (many frei Jews, and almost all the Arabs), and will be supported by the rest of the world. Demanding the yeshiva and kollel students be funded to the same extent as humanities students in the universities will also not be a problem, and not doing so will be seen as discrimination.

    Israel is a ZIONIST state, not a JEWISH state. The aspire to be a democratic and a secular state. As a minority, haredim need to pick battles carefully. Conscription is a problem. We need control of our own education. We need a way to make a living. These should be our priorities.

22. Friday, however, Liberman said he would be willing sit with haredi lawmakers – on condition that the government back a series proposals which religious MKs have long opposed, including civil marriages, changes to the conversion system in Israel, and the expansion of an egalitarian prayer section at the Western Wall in Jerusalem.
    “As far as we are concerned, and I’ve already said this in the past, the haredi parties are not our enemies, but are political rivals. We embrace different paths. They are from Beit Shammai, we from Beit Hillel.”

    Liberman went on to list his demands for entering a government which includes haredi parties.

    Passage of the haredi “draft law, as it is currently written; civil marriage; [permitting] conversions by local rabbis; re-approving the Western Wall deal; requiring haredi schools teach the ‘Liba’ curriculum [of secular subjects]; public transportation and the opening of minimarkets on the Sabbath. The last two issues will be left up to local authorities in every municipality, based on who lives in any given town. We won’t accept anything less than this, even if it means sitting in the opposition.”

23. lakewhut,etc.

    primarily in order to keep Lieberman happy Degel went out of its way to back his mayoral candidate for Jerusalem in 2013 and they backed him again five years later and got them over the Finish Line
    you can’t trust him
    turns around stabs everyone in the back