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Z_Not,
first, you are a follower of “no true scotsman” fallacy – you admit as gedolim only those who agree with _you_. So, you are a gadol and so are those who agree with you. Not too humble.2nd, not all arguments of 100 years ago are still applicable. People are the same and arguments are not the same. Majority of current Israelis are not even descendants of Zionists 100-70 years ago (Sephardim, Rusim, Charedim, Americans …)
Chabad assimilation warning ⚠️: they are not usually using a loaded term kiruv in regards to their heilike work, but I just saw in an internal shlichus journal a photo title; shaliach X and a mekurav at a yechidus. I perused the whole magazine, nobody else used such loshen. Maybe the junior editor is a misnagishe spy.
Kuvult, yes on other Rabbis, as I mentioned – Lita & Germany. I do not mean mixed dancing, I mean mixed eating on shabbos and simchas.
> . Nor did they have mixed seating in Lita.
Very appropriate statement per parsha – why was Yaakov wearng a hat. Sources would be welcome. I heard various stories, but did not study in depth. quick search finds, for example, mentions that R Feinstein had wedding for his children: 2 separate and 2 separate for Feinsteins and mixed for mechutonim. (R Tendler senior was on the same beis din w/ R Moshe); apocryphal story that Chofetz Chaim disinvited R Meir Shapiro from a shabbos meal when the latter requested separate seating at the table.
But here was a mention of “events”, like school dinners, I presume, sheva brochos not being a problem.
To clarify, I am not advocating for one v. the other, just for not considering this as one of the simanei kashrus along the split hooves.
> on the record supporting attendance at this secular rally.
R Feldman explicitly told you that such attendance is allowed when there is pikuach nefesh and that the rally satisfies this criterion. Your disregard of his words is unexplainable.
His decision to rescind his approval is based on 2 additional factors that he clearly states.
Not to sidetrack from the beautiful description of Baltimore, but is mixed seating at events something to be conscious about? I understand the history of nonobservant America and the slippery slope argument, but in terms of minhagim, I believe litvishe had mixed seating, and yakkish had mixed shiurim. Baltimore is r Schwab …
Yeshivish, I was referring to r Feldman saying that he is afraid that young people will be attracted by the pastor speech.
a user comment on an article by R Adlerstein:
As a Mom with several sons /sons-in-law called up to the army, I would like to make a practical suggestion. Some of my kids live on Yishuvim, in which due to their fairly homogeneous nature (age group and the fact that almost all the men serve in the army), the vast majority of men were called to miluim, leaving mainly women and children on the Yishuv. There are a few Chayyalim who guard each Yishuv, but the women are concerned that they are insufficiently protected in case of an emergency or attack, G-d forbid .
Maybe each yeshiva could move to a Yishuv and continue learning in the Yishuv Beit Knesset. These men could learn 16 hours a day, as like Chayyalim they would be away from the distractions of home, providing metaphysical protection..and..simply by their presence (and if some have security training and guns, even better) they can provide physical security, as well. Most Yishuvim have extra caravans where they could sleep, and they would stay on a 12 days learning / 2 days home schedule, like many Chayyalim.
It would seem to me that if the Yeshiva world is truly dedicated to providing protection through Torah study, this could be a win-win solution.from R Hauer:
Many thousands participated in both Monday’s Yom Kippur Katan and Tuesday’s DC March. Many thousands more participated in one and not the other, as some would not feel comfortable in the intensely Orthodox environment of the selichos minyan while others would not relate to a gathering with so many Jews and so little Torah. No matter.
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That is what we must focus on, not the controversies surrounding the statements or decisions of specific rabbanim or organizations. We must learn from the bitter experience of the past year that when we focus on fighting with each other, we lower our guard and become dangerously vulnerable to the threats of our real enemies
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We can be at those tables courtesy of something known as the Schindler Doctrine, formulated by Rabbi Alexander Schindler of the Reform movement but critical to our Orthodox sensitivities, committing the Conference to focus entirely on issues that impact the material well-being of Jews and Jewish communities and avoiding religious issues where we cannot expect agreement. That mature understanding allowed us to come together to plan a historic rally that would not and could not be a religious event, but that would prove to be an important political effort to demonstrate support for Israel, the Jewish people, and the hostages across political parties, communities of faith, and individuals of influence and celebrity.
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Painful as it was to leave Torah off the program, we all did so consistent with the principle that allowed us to be at that table to begin with, steering clear of areas where there are for now irreconcilable theological differences. But we shared an enthusiasm to make sure that this political event would prove to be an uplifting religious experience for the Jewish community that would make us all feel our connection to each other and to G-d. The moments of tehillim, the singing together of Esa Einei, Acheinu, Vehi She’amda, and the recitation of Shema were some of the precious moments that uplifted and unified one and all.GadolHadofi, thanks for referring to Cross Currents. Here is an interesting view from R Adlerstein who watched from Israel:
Why was it exhilarating? Because you could feel the achdus of a people that had come together. Every different religious and secular sub-community was represented. (Well, almost. I don’t want to write about the “almost” just now, in the middle of the war.) It was a brilliant move to have the cameras trained on the young people there, to see their enthusiasm and commitment.
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Those of us old enough to remember previous rallies were bowled over by how Jewish (rather than Jew-ish) it was. The organizers are to be commended for leaving out all rabbis, avoiding a source of internecine conflict and discomfort. That worked out well – particularly for the Torah-abiding community. Ishai Ribo did a better job of giving the event a “yiddishe taam” than virtually any rabbi we could have tapped as a speaker. At previous events (which the yeshiva world, contrary to the revisionists, participated in), the frum community felt like outsiders, as they had to listen to the words of people who seldom, if ever, invoked Hashem. On Tuesday, Ishai somehow engineered that the event pretty much began with a recitation of Tehillim, line by line. (A guitar strumming in the background turned that into the “musical” performance he had been billed to give in that slot.)Besides his other songs, all full of yearning for Hashem, he managed to end with both a Shema Yisrael (Did we hear correctly? Shema by 290,000. Such a shout did not need the Shaarei Shomayim to open for it. The pressure surely must have knocked down the doors!) and more devekus. Who could have imagined that this would be part of a mass rally?
Even the secular organizers found ways to mention G-d! Who would have imagined?
Who would have thought that the kol isha that was standard fare in the past would give way to a monopoly on musical performance by Ishai and the Maccabeats?
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The imprint of Orthodoxy was all over the event. The points mentioned above. The fact that Ishai did not have to translate his words, because so much of the crowd understood them. The fact that the organizers knew that music by Ishai Ribo and by the Maccabeats would be recognized by the non-Orthodox, and appreciated by them. All this speaks of the Orthodox having taken over Jewish culture in America! Gone are the days when we had to beg for some scraps of recognition.Zeff, thanks for your post. R Feldman summarized the dilemma pretty well:
>> I was extremely pained to have to say that we should not participate in the rally and not be able to influence Congress to help protect my brothers: civilians, soldiers and hostages. But, on the other hand, I could not contribute to undermining, even in the slightest way, the beliefs of Torah Jews. There would have to be another way to help the Jews of Israel.
Therefore, with a heavy heart I retracted my support of the rally.So, Rav is very frank in discussing trade-offs: yes, rally was important for pikuach nefesh (contrary to those who claim it was not) and it would also endanger beliefs of his community (contrary to those of us, like me, who feel it was possible to handle). He also calls, as I did, for charedi community to find what they can do.
What I do not fully understand is the “heavy heart” decision to resolve this trade-off: not to risk his community “even in slightest way” to pursue “pikuach nefesh”. Maybe, he sees that his community is indeed unprepared to listen to a pastor or, l’havdil, a President of Israel, in the ways people more exposed to the world are not.
Also, I am surprised that he is surprised that Israeli officials were highlighted at a political rally … to support Israel… To expect American Congressmen to split hairs between eretz and medinah seems unrealistic.
Maven,
correction: these are not “tunnels”, but “tunnels according to information provided by IDF that was not independently verified”. I am amazed by the sheer laziness of the journalists standing on the precipice of a peaceful hospital tunnel and do not bother to simply slide down and report independently from the inside.They actually could be pathways to/from gehenom that swallowed all the terrorists
How about contacting an Yid dressed differently from oneself and saying something nice to him
Some people in Israel reported being busy making green tzitzis to match IDF uniform that were reportedly requested by multiple soldiers (who presumably did not wear them previously).
Menachem,
are you also as strict regarding movement members who sign another “infamous nigunim” of maschihistim or you are more understanding about that?I don’t think kutim mamash worshipped the mountain, it s where their temple was. This would not be AZ, but their other beliefs at different times might have been. As we see even from gemora, we classify them according to the facts of the day. Anyway, I agree here that participants needed halachik guidance to deal with this, not sure whether they had it on hand. The response you heard could have been coming from the non-religious participants
Weird, what did pope do for jews lately!?
My voice, I think you misunderstood, maybe because you are focused on the rally and not the reason behind it. When whole am Israel is in pain, it is double painful to see a group that doesn’t join. If you hold that you have access to the only correct hashkofa, then you should be the first to organize the way you think is correct and then urge others to join. And don’t tell me you are doing learning instead. Whn yeshivos need government funding, they go to politicians, not to Yom iyun as far as I know. Chofetz Chaim met with polish politicians and many gedolim went to Petersburg on 19th century
I don’t think kutim were suspected of shituf, rather of straight Avoda Zora. You may get such impression because kutim may be used as euphemism for christians
Avira, yes, OC 215 seems to have Rema saying the opposite, and more of a discussion later on. Also, an argument whnether kuti here is a substitute for a non-Jew or a min in general. Sh’A harav has a discussion of a min, probably a code word for a christian. Bottom line, attendees of such rallies should have halachik guidance in advance on when and how to respond. In my humble experience dealing with friendly and helpful people from other religions, they do not engage in sneaking their brochos into conversation. Those who do are obnoxious l’hathila.
But all Sh’A discussions are about literally blessings. What about answering amen or other types of agreement with reasonable statement (I presume that is what it was as you are not taking an issue with his statement).
Someone comes to you and says “Am Yisroel Hai”, can you answer Amen? Yes? Sure? Does amen carry any implication of religious unity between parties? If yes, is it because we give significance in this word, or because preachers use this language?
As to a bigger issue – I understand R Soloveichik paskened that cooperation on religious issues is osur, but ok and desired on social issues. It appears from the above that more guidance is required when actually implemnting such policy. Can someone ask these questions from the poskim that supported the rally?
common, I am not sure why you are pursuing me repeatedly. I’m interested in your advice. My DT told me 30 years that there is no DT in gemora. And confirmed last week when I quoted this discussion to him. What do I do within the DT methodology? This is a human version of the question “can the Omnipotent create a stone that he cannot move”.
To be pedantic, OP didn’t specify yeshiva’s name. He probably meant bmg given signatures on the letter edited, for your benefit.
Hope he was not the driver.
mod > about frivolous comments about great people
My run of being unmodded ended so soon after the rosh hodesh! I absolutely meant the esteemed posters who insist that a letter signed by hamesha rabonim is halocha l’Moshe misinai, not the rabbonim who have the right, and even obligation, to make their opinion known to their followers.
As to the posters, they testified that they had great people sleeping in their car, but does it make them also a great people?! Anyway, it is an anonymous eid ehad testifying about themselves.
Avira > “gave an amen” to an evangelical pastor
interesting, you join ” ‘Jews’ for ‘Peace’ ” in this attitude.
I recall R Soloveichik paskened that we should avoid any “ecumenical” discussions with other religions – even when Vatican was “doing teshuva” and fixing their attitudes towards Jews. Good that they do it – but we don’t have to be there and be grateful for them to doing the right thing. At the same time, it is OK to join them to resolve world social and political problems, not necessarily Jewish. Kal vahomer, when it is in defense of Jews. So, bringing an influential speaker with tens of millions followers was certainly a win, despite liberal and purist annoyance.
I did not hear what exactly he wanted to be omeined to. I think halacha is that we don’t answer a partial brocha from a non-Jew as we do not know who and for what he is thanking. It seems to follow that you do answer if the bracha is appropriate. What did he actually say?
user > you think that you and your piers make up “klal Yisrael”
I think this summarizes well why most of us here are responding to this. At the moment when everyone is striving for unity, it is very annoying to see people with a pretense of being “the klal” and exclude everyone else.
> None of the Gedolim on the Moetzes
I referred to the official moetses statement that was discussed here that admitted a need to have many people at the rally. I am not even mentioning all Rabonim in different cities, including mine, that led the delegations.
PS it is indeed tricky to be at an event where you show unity with other people and people from other religions. So, if some of the “talmidei chachamim” “yodiim hilchos avoda zara” were there, they could have advised otheryidden when and when to to answer “amen”. When you were grasping your head in pain near your laptop, nobody noticed.
so, those (8 or all 13) moetses members who said that rally will be useful are not gedolim?
Oh, so it is 8 to 5 in Moetses? This explains the “pareve” “joint statement”. Not sure then why minority issued a separate opinion right before the event. Were they pressured by their followers after the compromise? Maybe, majority can now take back the compromise statement and tell us what they really think?
There is a singer in a black kippah singing shir hamaalot, are you guys happy now
Those T’Ch who signed the Tuesday morning call are – Lakewood, Mir and a 92-student school from Brooklyn. Do we presume that the rest are for, or at least OK, with the rally given that Moetzes as an oganization were ok with it?
you can rest your case because ywn front page seemingly closed that article for comments and deleted the ones that were there.
So, maybe you can help me clarify:
1) how many members are in moetzes?2) as this was posted this morning when buses were on the way – did anyone see buses with lakewood registration turning around after receiving a lakewood alert?
3) can moetzes organize their own demonstration with 100,000 people in DC – let’s have a siyum of half-shas?
common, I respectfully produce arguments that would work according to your shita. I also added arguments from sevorah. As I generally follow beis Hille, I put your position first and mine second.
> The march on Washington during WW II was by Rabbis and was for a very different purpose. This rally is sponsored by secular organizations
Exactly, during WW2, those non-observant Jews were afraid to show up and even counseled FDR to disregard the march. Can you imagine how those Rabonim felt being abandoned by fellow Jews in trying to save Jewish lives. Now, those other Jews finally showed up and we are now nitpicking on the speaker lineup.
speakers include top house and senate leaders, as well as president of Israel. this is the goal – affect American politicians.
Maybe if you put a Rav, then you need to put someone reform, then noone O will come?To the question why the rally is needed
First, see the announcement from the collective daas Torah: they say it is beneficial. To the point: public opinion is one if the fronts of this war, not different from tunnels or sea or cyber. Public opinion in the west and in Arab countries will determine how much pressure will be on tzahal to avoid certain actions; whether other groups or countries will join. Etc. And each one battle may not be decisive but they are part of the whole.In regards to women, we probably can’t demand of them to go, but should accommodate them if they come. Same as the husband I obligated to support the wife financially in return for her wages, but she can reject the offer and work and keep her wages. Same with learning, nobody kicked out Beruriah from a class.
ProBiden articles before 2020 election addressed unease of an Obama vp: the claim was that Biden was the mature member of the team. While others viewed Israel as the occupier, Biden allegedly remembered 1973 and understood that Israel feels vulnerable.
Maybe oil is where consumers can affect world politics. You can work all sides of it: reduce consumption- buy unfortunately Chinese solar panels or heat pumps that might be Japanese. Also, increase US production by voting R or pressing your reps, buying stock in oil and gas companies, especially lng exporters.
Organize anti government protests in Venezuela or Nigeria or any other corrupt oil producer.Don’t worry. People are either not bragging about their kabolos not to lose zechyuos, or took a kabola not to post, or are on the bus to DC with a bad connection
It is just 3 hours frm Lakewood to DC or maybe 2 with a typical driver
Learnt, indeed. Just see how middle east treats other minorities: nothing, yazidis, kurds,. Sunnis v shias …iraq/ Iran war, syria…
.. I don’t think this is all zionist fault. So, without zionists, Sephardim would have gotten similar treatment by now.Mod, mate, it entails me not posting for the next 6 hours until rosh hodesh Sydney time. Cheers.
If mods would be willing to share with me rejected posts (under an NDA), I can see if we can train an ai moderator for some obvious abuses.
Iran, Russia, China 🇨🇳 are hamas enablers. So, oil, Persian carpets, Russian vodka and antivirus software and everything Chinese are good candidates for boycott. Also, any company or college that cooperate with them.
To show chesed to the moderator, I’ll take upon myself , bli never, to write posts that do not require moderator to edit anything till the end of the month, or at least I’ll put controversial ideas in invisible ink, white on white, for example,
Hope you agree.
That would be super helpful, thanks. You do realize what it entails, tho, right?
So rabbonim who went to meet fdr, and he sneaked out, wasted their time from learning. Take your hevrusa and a sefer on the bus and learn at the rally. Maybe teach some of the other participants. Mitzvos related to eretz Israel.
> big rally for Soviet Jewry ended with Yeshiva bochurim & Bais Yaakov Maidlach mixed dancing
And it ended up with a million Yidden getting their freedom. Some gedolim didn’t approve these activities lehathila not because mixed dancing but because they were afraid of soviet response both towards the activists and increasing regressions inside ussr. At the same time, a friend of mine asked a Sheila in Baltimore whether open action is OK v. traditional shtadlanus and the answer was: we don’t have a preference for specific way of politics. If quiet ways worked in olden times, and demonstrations work in our times , we do what works.
What is the source for Yidden only sitting in beis midrash and davening. In 1943, there was a march of rabbis on Washington that lead to creation of war refugee board. The event was condemned by assimilated jews.
Chofetz Chaim talked to various Polish politicians. Tannaim went to Rome. Moshe rabbeinu went to Pharaoh. Even Yaakov did.
I am confused that people who usually follow aguda are now looking for tirutzim and yehidim who disagree. True aguda doesn’t call for everyone personally to go, just to increase numbers. So if you are not comfortable going, you can maybe sponsor free bus seats, encourage your students to go, substitute for a teacher or a doctor who are going, drive students to the bus meeting place…