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Actually the new regs will not force anybody to do anything. They simply say that if the schools do not provide a certain number of hours of secular studies they will not receive state money for textbooks (why bother if they are not using them?), transportation, etc. The yeshivot can elect to pass on the money and either raise tuitions, look for private donors or look for community support or any combination of the above,
Howdid Logicyid’s chotzaat shem ra on Naftali Moster and Lipa Schmetzer pass moderation?
AY, I have news for you. They are already abandoning it. More and more young Chareidim are joining the IDF, getting secular educations and going out into the general job market. The fact of the matter is that the Chareidi innovation was only a horaat sha’ah for two generations from the get-go.
As for Rav Kanievsky, his grandson controls who sees him and what he hears. He himself wrote that he signs any proclamation his rabbis (courtiers) tell him to sign.OTD, I also went to public school. I do not know how old you are, but in my day (I am 64) the secular education was very good. It provided the basis for citizenship as well as basic knowledge of science and math necessary to go further. In fact, in my (specialized) high school there were a number of Orthodox kids who came for the advanced academic education. One went on to become a director of the Bank of Israel. I do agree, however, that today the situation is much different, as is society in general. The wife of a friend of mine once commented that her kids grew up frummer than her but she grew up cleaner.
Neville, Rav Kook said that we should not use either as those words prevent teshuva. People with the label “secular” think that as a religious term it does not apply to them whereas those with the label “frum” think that they do not need to do teshuva. <National Review recently ran an article blasting liberals for excusing black antisemites like Alice Walker. It seems to me that certain people excuse “frum” fraudsters and even those who do much more serious crimes.
Avram, FYI Yirmiahu (29:7) directs us to pray for the peace and prosperity of the city. Chazal say (Pirkei Avot 3:2) that we should pray for the government as without it people would swallow each other alive. How can anyone object to the prayer for thק state of Israel. Even if they object to ראשית צמיחת גאולתינו they can leave it out.
אָבִינוּ שֶׁבַּשָּׁמַיִם,צוּר יִשְׂרָאֵל וְגוֹאֲלוֹ,בָּרֵךְ אֶת מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל, רֵאשִׁית צְמִיחַת גְּאֻלָּתֵנוּ. הָגֵן עָלֶיהָ בְּאֶבְרַת חַסְדֶּךָ,וּפְרֹשׂ עָלֶיהָ סֻכַּת שְׁלוֹמֶךָ,וּשְׁלַח אוֹרְךָ וַאֲמִתְּךָ לְרָאשֶׁיהָ, שָׂרֶיהָ וְיוֹעֲצֶיהָ, וְתַקְּנֵם בְּעֵצָה טוֹבָה מִלְּפָנֶיךָ.חַזֵּק אֶת יְדֵי מְגִנֵּי אֶרֶץ קׇדְשֵׁנוּ,וְהַנְחִילֵם אֱלֹהֵינוּ יְשׁוּעָה וַעֲטֶרֶת נִצָּחוֹן תְּעַטְּרֵם, וְנָתַתָּ שָׁלוֹם בָּאָרֶץ, וְשִׂמְחַת עוֹלָם לְיוֹשְׁבֶיהָ. וְאֶת אַחֵינוּ כָּל בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל, פְּקׇד נָא בְּכָל אַרְצוֹת פְּזוּרֵיהֶם,
וְתוֹלִיכֵם מְהֵרָה קוֹמְמִיּוּת לְצִיּוֹן עִירֶךָ וְלִירוּשָׁלַיִם מִשְׁכַּן שְׁמֶךָ, כַּכָּתוּב בְּתוֹרַת מֹשֶׁה עַבְדֶּךְ (דברים ל,ד-ו): “אִם יִהְיֶה נִדַּחֲךָ בִּקְצֵה הַשָּׁמָיִם, מִשָּׁם יְקַבֶּצְךָ יְיָ אֱלֹהֶיךָ וּמִשָּׁם יִקָּחֶךָ. וֶהֱבִיאֲךָ יְיָ אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֶל הָאָרֶץ אֲשֶׁר יָרְשׁוּ אֲבֹתֶיךָ וִירִשְׁתָּהּ, וְהֵיטִבְךָ וְהִרְבְּךָ מֵאֲבֹתֶיךָ. וּמָל יְיָ אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֶת לְבָבְךָ וְאֶת לְבַב זַרְעֶךָ,
לְאַהֲבָה אֶת יְיָ אֱלֹהֶיךָ בְּכׇל לְבָבְךָ וּבְכׇל נַפְשְׁךָ, לְמַעַן חַיֶּיךָ.” וְיַחֵד לְבָבֵנוּ לְאַהֲבָה וּלְיִרְאָה אֶת שְׁמֶךָ,
וְלִשְׁמֹר אֶת כׇּל דִּבְרֵי תּוֹרָתֶךָ, וּשְׁלַח לָנוּ מְהֵרָה בֶּן דָּוִד מְשִׁיחַ צִדְקֶךָ, לִפְדּוֹת מְחַכֵּי קֵץ יְשׁוּעָתֶךָ.
הוֹפַע בַּהֲדַר גְּאוֹן עֻזֶּךָ עַל כׇּל יוֹשְׁבֵי תֵּבֵל אַרְצֶךָ, וְיֹאמַר כֹּל אֲשֶׁר נְשָׁמָה בְּאַפּוֹ: “יְיָ אֱלֹהֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל מֶלֶךְ,
וּמַלְכוּתוֹ בַּכֹּל מָשָׁלָה!”אָמֵן סֶלָה.Alles,
1. The story about Chevron is a fake story. Actually te Zionists sent emissaries to the rabbanim offering armed protection. the rabbanim said that it would inflame the Arabs and that they had good relations with local arab leaders who would prevent a pogrom.
2. The story about The CI and BG is also a fake story. Actually, the CI said “Our camel carries a greater load so it should go first”. BG said “Ours also carries a heavy load”. BTW, the CI also said that someone who is not really learning full-time should be reported to the IDF authorities.Mod, why do you allow these topics but not not my post of Rav Eliezer Melamed’s dissenting essay?
Horrified, does your shul say the “misheberach” for the soldiers?
Neville, Sarah wrote either an apology or an acknowledgement of the soldiers’ contribution. Considering the treatment Chareidi soldiers receive in Chareidi neighborhoods with no one protesting shows a complete lack of hakkarat tova. Do these alleged “bnei Torah” learn at all? If so they should stop immediately and completely. The Gra says in Even Sheleima 1:11 that Torah is compared to rain because it makes everything grow. Someone with innate bad middot who learns will become even worse. Rav Aviner adds that he will even find
“Torah “rationalizations for his actions thus magnifying the chillul Hashem.AJ, I have news for you. At least at one time Orthodox teachers taught in public schools and probably still do as the salaries are much higher.
Shoppin, who says? If so, then the yeshiva boys should be the first ones drafted.
NYer,
1. Rav Ovadia said that without the army there would be no yeshivot.
2. Actually unity is the key. None of Achav’s soldiers were killed in battle because they were united. Unfortunately, part of the Chareidi world has formed its own separate nation. It does not take part in Am Yisrael’s celebration (Yom haAtzmaut) or sorrow (Yom haZicharon). Rambam says that such a person has no place in the next world even if he has Torah and good deeds.Why not a Chareidi Hesder? At the very least let them learn IIDF battei midrash, give shiurim, put out sefarim, etc.
Jakob, “hatzlacha” means “don’t expect any help from me”.
Absolutely. They claim that they are learning for the soldiers but refuse to say the “misheberach’. They also refuse to say the prayer for the government even though it is a mitzva from a Navi.
CA, what had gravity was the libels.
1. Ford “could not remember” where or exactly when. She also claimed that she drove to the house herself even though she was only 15 and that afterwards she called a friend on a cell phone that did not exist.
2. Ramirez also had memory problems but admitted hat she was very drunk.
3. Swetnick is a serial liar represented by the same woman who sued Trump – and not only lost but was ordered to pay his legal expenses.
4. The fourth woman is completely anonymous. Anybody can write an anonymous letter. “She” might not even be a woman.While we are on the subject, what about a drunken, adulterous (according to common American parlance) murderer lecturing the Senate on morality during the Bork hearing?
Ubiquitin, the GOP platform does not mention it and Trump implied that he does not believe in it. I personally do not think that Netanyahu, or anyone else outside the fever swamps of liberalism really does. For some reason they think that they have to pay lip service. Even Abbas does not want it, IMHO. He keeps threatening to declare a state but never does.
Participant, what about Pence/Haley for 2024?
CTL, who says that J. Levine Co. is acting properly? There was also a company that printed siddurim on Shabbat.
The best way to drink it is with a cup.
Ubitquin, anybody who really believes in the so-called two-state solution (there are already three states: Israel, Jordan and Gaza) is living in a fool’s paradise. The Fakestinians will never declare peace with Israel. Moreover, Abbas is 83, in poor health and has no successor. Guess what is going to happen after he goes the way of all flesh.
Joseph,
1. No right is absolute. Parents do not have the right to educate their children to be gangsters or spongers.
2. So limit your family’s size to your means. In any case, if they have good jobs they will at least need less. Moreover, there is a halachic prohibition against taking charity from non-Jews. These communities should support their own.
3. If the students are doing so well the school will pass muster.Ubiquitin, I looked. More of the same economic illiteracy. More regs and higher taxes to strangle business. Just to give one example, raising the minimum wage creates unemployment (you can google this statement and get several articles) by pricing people who productivity is less out of the market. When NYC raised it, just to give one example, fast-food restaurants automated.
CTL, the Mishna Berura says (135:47) says that it is a denigration to take the sefer from its place.People should go to it not it to people. Apparently Rav Fuchs used the term “shul” because that is the usual place of a sefer Torah.Here the person already has a sefer Torah so there is no big need. In fact, the only reason for three is not to inconvenience the tzibbor by making them wait for it to be rolled to different places. However, as the rav of my community pointed out, the time taken for hagba’ah is almost as much.
Ubiquitin, what about forcing people to change their religious beliefs (in particular to support toeva “weddings”), shutting up anybody who offends them (= anybody tro their right), appeasing Iran and other terrorists (in particular the Fakestinians) and bashing Israel?
Regarding your hilarious list:
1-2. How, pray tello? By fiat?
3. What are “fundamental rights”? Not being fired no matter what they do?
4. What does that mean? With whose money?
5-6. See #1-2
7. It’s already headed towards bankruptcy. They want to speed up the process?
8. What is dignified? I am retired and I think that my dignity requires me to live in a mansion with servants and have a private jet. LOL
9. The best thing to do is to let it die with dignity so that private industry can take over.From the syllabus of Wisconsin vs. Yoder 406 U.S. 205 (1972) :
“Beyond this, they have carried the difficult burden of demonstrating the adequacy of their alternative mode of continuing informal vocational education in terms of the overall interest that the State relies on in support of its program of compulsory high school education.”
From the Lancaster County, PA website:
“After several years of debate, Amish community leaders and public officials worked out a compromise. This compromise known as the Amish Vocational Program allows for Amish youth to attend a weekly vocational school at the age of 14 after completing the eighth grade in their parochial school.”
1. The Netziv closed the yeshiva because the Russian government wanted to severely limit Talmud studies.
2. The Gras aid that what one lacks in secular knowledge he will lack one hundred fold in Torah.
3. Home schooling requires an approved curriculum.
4. So be like the Amish. Don’t use electricity. Don’t drive cars. Farm using a horse.
“A sefer Torah should not be taken out of the shul to be read in a separate minyan somewhere else. Exceptions are a house of mourning and for other special circumstances (and even then there should be a special place for it). There are those (Maaseh Rav 129 and Rav Sonnenfeld) who are very stringent about this” – Tefilla k’Hilchata ch. 16 Halacha 7 with footnotes)
Joseph, on the other hand talmidim in Pressburg earned an external baccalaureate in return for exemption from the draft as theological students. This stood the Orthodox in Hungary in good stead when a Pressburger was appointed Chief Rabbi. He spoke to Franz Josef in German whereas the head of the Neolog (Reform) spoke literary Hungarian, which annoyed the Emperor, who hated the Hungarian language he had to use there as part of the Dual Monarchy compromise. Rav Hirsch also insisted on a full program of secular studies (Torah im Derech Eretz). Both Rabbenu Bachya and the Gra say that one cannot be considered wise if he is not knowledgeable of the seven secular areas of wisdom (Logic, Mathematics, Ethics, Natural Science, Astronomy, Music, Theology). In order to function in a modern democracy one also needs a knowledge of the country’s history and political institutions. It goes without saying that one must be fluent in the language of the country (the Netziv, BTW, expressed regret at never having learned Russian and Rav Soloveitchik’s mother taught him Russian literature).
Which Satmar? Will the rival of the rebe who is fighting this bill support it just as one supported clinton and the other Trump? I still do not see the problem. He who pays the piper gets to call the tune (בעל המאה הוא בעל הדעה). Yeshivot get funding for lunches and secular studies. Grads who cannot get decent jobs get various welfare benefits.
Takes, sorry, I didn’t catch your tone.
I sometimes get that question and sometimes do not. In any case, I also find it very offensive.
Takes, you seem to think that we are still living in the age of autonomous kehillot. There is no bet din outside of Israel that has the power or resources to make a full investigation. The experience of secular colleges shows that the best course is for those authorities who do have the power and resources and are bound by due process rules to handle the investigation. Of course, it would be even better if Torah Jews would join prosecution offices both to handle investigations themselves and to educate investigators and prosecutors regarding relevant Jewish cultural norms so that they do not confuse normal displays of affection for harassment.
Yserbius, maybe it should be the opposite. Section 8 pushes up rents and housing prices (the voucher can also be used to purchase a home) by raising demand. Just out of curiosity, for what does the “S” in TANSTAAFS stand?
I agree. Jewish journalism should be on a higher level. I am also sick of over-moderation. Disclosure: yesterday I posted a song about anti-vaxxers to the tune of “Dreidel, dreidel” and it was deleted.
Laskern, the obligation is fulfilled by saying Hallel. There is no Torah need to light candles. Regarding safeka d’yoma there is a problem, maybe even bigger than that occurs on the eighth day of Sukkot in Chutz laAretz regarding sitting in the Sukka. One who says Hallel every day blasphemes. Therefore if the “ninth day” is not part of Chanuka (and now that we have a fixed calendar we know that it is not), then it is prohibited to say Hallel.
Laskern,
1. The Behag paskens that the Torah requires us say Hallel on a day when the deliverance occurred but the other observances are rabbinic. If Jews in Chul do not observe an extra day of Rosh Chodesh, which is completely d’Oraita, they certainly will not in the future (if there are Jews in Chul after Mashiach comes). Actually even the second day of Yom Tov is actually a minhag being that we have a fixed calendar (Beitza 4b).
2. a. Who says it only applies if it comes later? b. Actually it was never a safek as the shlichim certainly reached Bavel by the 25th.
Laskern, as Chanuka is rabbinic a safek would be l’kula.
What about the Romaniote Jews? When a Sephardic Jew in Solonika was mistakenly included in their kehilla for tax purposes he wrote in his protest letter “יוונים נקבצו עלי”. They were so incensed they wanted to have him put in cherem but were told to lighten up.
From Dictionary.com:
pa·thet·ic
[p uh- thet-ik]ADJECTIVE
1. causing or evoking pity, sympathetic sadness, sorrow, etc.; pitiful; pitiable: a pathetic letter; a pathetic sight.
2. affecting or moving the emotions.
3. pertaining to or caused by the emotions.
4. miserably or contemptibly inadequate: In return for our investment we get a pathetic three percent interest.BTW, there is also a group called Conservatives International.
Getting back to the O.P.’s question here are Russell Kirk’s Ten Conservative Principles:
First, the conservative believes that there exists an enduring moral order.
Second, the conservative adheres to custom, convention, and continuity.
Third, conservatives believe in what may be called the principle of prescription.
Fourth, conservatives are guided by their principle of prudence.
Fifth, conservatives pay attention to the principle of variety.
Sixth, conservatives are chastened by their principle of imperfectability.
Seventh, conservatives are persuaded that freedom and property are closely linked.
Eighth, conservatives uphold voluntary community, quite as they oppose involuntary collectivism.
Ninth, the conservative perceives the need for prudent restraints upon power and upon human passions.
Tenth, the thinking conservative understands that permanence and change must be recognized and reconciled in a vigorous society.CTL,
1-3. Aren’t non-show fireworks already illegal? You can add personal injuries caused by them. BTW, while I generally like dogs. barking dogs drive ME crazy, especially when I am trying to sleep.
4. I guess he was mugged by reality. After what you wrote about Bill I would think that you would not want to admit having known him. I would also not put crooked, anti-religious Hilary down on a list of people who can recommend me.
5. I agree. Actually, in Europe and Israel libertarians are called liberals, which is the original meaning of the word. See the website of the Liberal International for their platform. A true liberal would, for example, oppose laws against consensual adult activities (including all types of drugs) as well as anti-discrimination laws that apply to individuals.Maybe he decided to put the fighting spirit of Ponevich and the Peleg to good use.
CTL,
1. Why should possession of small amounts of pot, or even hard drugs, be a criminal offense? All that does is create career criminals. The Portuguese system (which the Israel Anti-Drug authority has recommended to the Knesset) treets it as a public health problem and has had remarkable success.
2. Everyone wants free choice to do what they want to do. Are you in favor of free choice not to sell cakes for gay weddings? Are you opposed to compulsory “diversity training” (= indoctrination)?
3. Your excuses hold true about outlying areas (although infrastructure can be built as it was when close suburbs were developed after WW2)but what about inner ritzy suburbs? Not to mention designating whole urban neighborhoods as “historic” so that they can remain in the hands of the limousine liberals who claim to love the poor.
4. How do you feel about the threat to Jews from the Left? One of the bastions of liberal academia, Columbia, has been declared the worst college for Jews in America.
5. What is “strict gun control with compulsory education before granting a license”? Do you mean like driving? While it is a good idea anyway criminals will still get guns as always. One can even print a gun from the Internet.CTL, that is because they have so many loopholes that they will not have to bear the burden. If they really wanted to help those less fortunate they would eliminate zoning laws that prevent the building of affordable housing (c”v in their neighborhoods -someone wrote a master’s thesis on this called “We will not be forced out again”: The Scatter Site Housing. Controversy in Forest Hills, Queens and the Reshaping of Public. Policy which you can read online). They can also support free markets. See Extreme Poverty’s End in Sight by Chelsea Follett on the Cato Institute blog.
I do agree however that liberals love rules. It seems that every day there is a new PC rule – and woe to the person who dares to refuse to bow down to the idol. According to Clyde Wayne Crews Jr., writing in Forbes (How Many Rules And Regulations Do Federal Agencies Issue?, unelected Federal bureaucrats issue on the average over ten new regs every day. That, of course, is in addition to all of the state and local regs issued. In fact, almost every American is guilty of some crime. Gene Healy (also of the Cato Institute) wrote a book on this called Go Directly to Jail: The Criminalization of Almost Everything.
משך חכמה פרשת בחוקותי:
“כך היה דרכה של האומה, שכאשר יכנסו לארץ נכריה, יהיו אינם בני תורה, כאשר נדלדלו מן הצרות והגזירות והגירוש, ואח”כ יתעורר בהם רוח א-לקי השואף בם להשיבם למקור חוצבו מחצבת קדשם, ילמדו, ירביצו תורה, יעשו נפלאות,עד כי יעמוד קרן התורה על רומו ושיאו, הלא אין ביד הדור להוסיף מה, להתגדר נגד אבותם! מה יעשה חפץ האדם העשוי להתגדר ולחדש?! יבקר ברעיון כוזב את אשר הנחילו אבותינו, ישער חדשות בשכוח מה היה לאומתו בהתנודדו בים התלאות, ויהיה מה. עוד מעט ישוב לאמר “שקר נחלו אבותינו”, והישראלי בכלל ישכח מחצבתו ויחשב לאזרח רענן, יעזוב לימודי דתו, ללמוד לשונות לא לו, יליף מקלקלתא ולא יליף מתקנא יחשוב כי ברלין היא ירושלים, וכמקולקים שבהם עשיתם כמתוקנים לא עשיתם. “ואל תשמח ישראל אל גיל בעמים” (הושע ט’, א). אז יבוא רוח סועה וסער, יעקור אותו מגזעו יניחהו לגוי מרחוק אשר לא למד לשונו, ידע כי הוא גר, לשונו שפת קדשנו, ולשונות זרים כלבוש יחלוף, ומחצבתו הוא גזע ישראל, ותנוחמיו ניחומי נביאי ד’, אשר ניבאו על גזע ישי באחרית הימים.”
Joseph, should those who don’t immunize be forced to subsidize those who do? TANSTAAFL.
ZG, you are not up to date. Secular liberalism has become a religion complete with burnings of heretics at the (so far only on social media and in some courtrooms) stake.