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Ubiquitin, suppose all the Nazis endorsed a candidate who said “Send all the Jews to Israel”? How about if all the Communists said “No. Force them to be good proletarians here”?
CTL, be generous with you own money and not with others’. We learn this from Avraham Avinu who would not take a shoelace after the war but made sure that his soldiers were paid. He then took a huge amount from Avimelech being that he owed money to the hoteliers. Besides, who says that government always improves society? Maybe it sometimes improves society by staying out of the way.
Ubiquitin, the primary is an election to see who will be the party’s candidate,
CTL, so anyone who points out problems with the DP is a right-wing troll? You should stay in your safe space where no one can threaten you. As a famous Democrat said, if you can;t stand the heat stay out of the kitchen.
Ubiquitin,
The title of the thread is “Question for Jewish Democrats” and the O.P. asked if they would vote for Stalin in a primary, obviously being sarcastic although (in most of the NE they would probably vote for him in the general election as they are programmed to vote Dem) and what are their views on the acceptable left limit.Edited
In any case, the O.P. specifically addressed Democrats and asked their views on the leftward, antisemitic lurch of their party.
ZG, someone else who calls himself a rabbi said that secular soldiers who die for Israel go to Gehennom. He based this on a seance(!) conducted by a “famous rabbi” named Rami Levy (Rami Levy is actually the owner of a discount supermarket chain and while he is traditional he is definitely not a rabbi). Apparently there is a famous rabbis course.
Takes,
1. Read it again. He says MBY explicitly. Here is one statement:
בתור עקבא דמשיח בן יוסף, נתגלה חזיון הציונות בדורנו,He also says that Ephraim (Yosef) is the material side and Yehuda the spiritual side but that they cannot yet work together. In his letters he also says that the reason for the secular Zionists’ anti-Torah attitude is that they do not understand that the Torah includes nationalism and that this was caused by the galut. In fact, his son and continuation Rav Tzvi Yehuda did not like the term “dati leumi” as it implies that the two are separate but some hold by both.
2. We cannot have anything “now”. We have to work for everything. We have to work for professions, for Torah and for Mashiach ben David. This is a gradual process (Yerushalmi Berachot 1:1). One very important factor is ridding ourselves of sinat chinam and factionalism. Another is to be thankful for what Hashem has already given us. Phil Chernofsky, the Education Director of the OU Israel Center, compared it to three brothers who were hit by a car while playing in the street. They were eventually released from the hospital but needed outpatient treatment. One brother said that if they were released it meant that there was nothing more necessary. One said that if they stil needed treatment there was nothing for which to be thankful. The third thanked Hashem for being brought so far and prayed for the future.
Plus, Ramban (Sefer haMitzvot, mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”) says that there is an obligation in our time to conquer EY. Plus, Rav Kook (Hesped b’Yerushalayim) said that Mashiach ben Yosef, whose job is kibbutz galuyot and the physical building of EY (see Kol haTor of Rabbi Hillel Rivlin), has come. He is either Herzl or the Zionist movement in general (RK does not specify).
Here we go again. I see that I will have to post this four hundred times.
1. The pasukim cited refer to the kelei hamikdash, not the people.
2. They are aggadata. Aggadata cannot be understood literally (Rambam, Intro. to Perek Chelek).
3. They are not brought down in any of the codes.
4. According to Rav Chaim Vital they were only for 1,000 years (Intro. to Sefer Etz Chaim 8).
5. According to Rav Meir Simcha the San Remo conference repealed them as the other nations agreed.
6. According to Rav Soloveichik (Kol Dodi Dofek) Hashemn has called.
7. The other nations violated their oath not to persecute us too much on several occasions (Crusades, Chmielnitzky massacres, pogroms, Petlura massacres, Holocaust). Thus, the deal is off (Sotah 10a with Rashi d”h huchal shevuato shel Avimelech and Shulchan Aruch YD 236,6).Joseph,
1. Medinat Yisrael is the first flowering of our redemption. In Rav Kook’s words, the foundation of Hashem’s throne in this world.
2. Without Medinat Yisrael there would have been mass conversion in the wake of the Holocaust as Xtian missionaries were using it as proof that Hashem abandoned us c”v.
3. The shelosh shevuot are no longer in effect – if they ever were. I have posted about this several times.
Mr. Sarah, how is it possible to arrive at a figure. Even in Israel, where one can measure the number of seats won by religious parties there is no way of knowing how many simply tired of sectoral politics. Moreover, one cannot know how many secular Jews become observant and what percentages go to different groups – and whether they stay with a certain group or move on to another stream (this can happen when they initially become very machmir and then stabilize in the middle).
Joseph, do you object to asking Hashem to bestow wisdom on those in power?
Takes,
1. If one should daven there should be a tefilla. In fact, in all countries a tefilla for the government was instituted to be said on Shabbat. They are all basically the same with slight variations depending on the government (in the US POTUS and the VP, in the UK the King or Queen as the case may be. The rest of your rant is a slew of personal insults that do not deserve an answer.
2. You may live in galut but you still have obligations to Am Yisrael. If for some reason you have a halachic exemption from living in EY you should at least give of your money.AY, I did not see any post accusing the rabbanim of wanting to profit monetarily. Moreover, I agree that that is nonsense. However, considering the actions of the Peleg in attacking Rav Kaminetsky as well as what the Atra Kadisha hoodlums didto Rav Eliashiv when he reached an agreement with the government on removing ancient graves (which may not even have been of Israelites) I think that he has good reason to fear public pronouncements. I also think that he is saying things in private that is very much not to their liking.
BTW, just who are “us”? Have you made aliya?
Nobody except Lapid wants to put them in jail. Simply take away their benefits. IMHO, just as there is a Loyalty in Culture law (although really I am against all government aid to cultural events and sports) there should be a Loyalty in Torah law. Any institution that does not support the state should have to depend on private donations and tuition. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you.
Iacisrmma, in my experience “hatzlacha” means “don’t expect any help from me”.
Takes,
1. That is referring to a spiritual burden such as LGBT, fraudsters, etc.
2. Rambam says that the chukkim are also logical. We just may not be able to perceive the logic. Regarding eidim zommemim, various Rishonim give reasons. Ramban says that if the bet din din punished the person he was really guilty (eidim mezamim do not say that he was innocent, only that the first two eidim were lying). Abarbanel says that it would undermine public faith in the judicial system to punish the eidim after the defendant has been punished.Neville, the process of teshuva has nothing to do with politics. In fact, it is in spite of the political machinations of the Chareidi parties. It has to do with an inner yearning of Jews coupled with efforts of machzerim b’teshuva who understand today’s non-observant Jews.
MrSarah, there is actually movement between different streams of Orthodoxy. There are even organizations in both the US and Israel that counsel people who were brought up in communities that are inappropriate for them but do not want to stop keeping mitzvot.
ZG, also the NK does not take government money, The rest want to have their cake and eat it too.
MrSarah, why can’t they do their service in DF battei midrash, give shiurim to soldiers, etc.?
Mod, actions are halachic issues. Having a yetzer hara is a given.
DY, what non-Torah path? Defending Am Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael? I personally think that Rav Nachman Kahana’s plan was a good one. The Rabbanut would give exams. The best performers would get a deferment for a few years (I don’t remember exactly how many) to learn, the rest would enlist. After the few years are up the best would be exempted and the rest would become chaplains. During this period those learning would occasionally give shiurim to soldiers. They would also declare that they are learning for the success of the IDF. This would allow the real learners to continue to learn and give those who are not suited an alternative.
DY, the Wikipedia says that holy sites ” are sites that religions considers to be of special religious significance”. The IDF certainly has special religious significance for Jews as it is doing the great mitzva of defending EY and AY. If you want to quibble about it being a place I have no objection to changing my post to “holy organization”.
DY, the IDF is performing the sacred task of protecting Am Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael, including Chareidi and leftist ingrates.
The IDF very much needs the Chareidim and it is a holy place. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach said that when he felt the need to go to kivrei tzadikkim he goes to the military cemetery on Mt. Herzl.
Ben and Manitou, “fact” 3 is also false. Only the Satmars and NKs said that founding a state was assur because of the non-shevuot (I have already posted about this several times). Many Chareidim actually supported it. For example, the head of the Aguda signed the Declaration of Indepence. SOthers opposed because they thought that the Arabs would overrun it in response. The Americans and British also thought that. They were wrong and BG was right.
Anon1m0us, would you please translate “unvaynig” for those of us who are not fluent in creole German,
Joseph, have you sought professional help for your issues? You obviously are overcompensating for guilt feelings about not living in EY.
The real issue is that the Chareidi sector is a victim of its own success. It is possible that in a small group all will be full-time learners and that the rest will agree to support them/ However, according to the Law of Large Numbers there will be many who are unfit. They will full out in some manner, either by going completely OTD or RZ and leave, hanging around Chareidi community and causing trouble or looking for other forms of action like violent demonstrations. Moreover, the rest will not support them and there are no gevirim from a generation that worked in their own communities. So either Chareidi is going to have to go back to what it was or the Chareidi gedolim will have to push out all those who cannot make the cut, hope that they go to another Orthodox stream and be satisfied with small communities.
Neville,
1, Both of his parents were born Jewish and he had rabbinic ancestors. His father was baptized in 1817. Marx and his siblings were baptized in 1825 and his mother followed in 1827.
2. Ayn Rand was born Alyssa Rosenbaum. Both her parents were Jewish. it is not clear why she changed her name. In any case, she later became an atheist although never denied her Jewish ancestry and was even a strong supporter of Israel. I do agree that the terms Left and Right are not so applicable to American politics as they originally denoted republicans and monarchists according to where they sat in the French National Assembly. The libertarians (Rand, BTW, said about the anarcho-capitalist wing “Anarchism is the most irrational, anti-intellectual notion ever spun by the concrete-bound, context-dropping, whim-worshiping fringe of the collectivist movement, where it properly belongs.”) are especially hard to pin down as they are Right on economic issues but Left on social issues.Neville, I know of no such thing. Of course, you can claim that only your officially recognized poskim are major leaguers but I dispute you.
Joseph, that’s very funny but don’t give up your day job. Would you care to guess how the Gra and the Baal haTanya came to thrown in jail?
Neville, Marx was less than a secular Jew. He was baptized as a child and became a rabid antisemite (see Karl Marx on the Jewish Question). BTW, there have also been secular Jews on the Right (e.g. Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Ludwig von Mises, Ernest van den Haag, Frank Meyer – who converted to Catholicism just before his death). Interestingly, Mises was anti-religious but his chief student is an orthodox rabbi, Rabbi Prof. (Emeritus) Israel Kirzner who is considered to be Mises’ continuance in Economics.
Avreich,
1. Horaaat sha’ah. On the other end, would you make your 13 year old son a partner in the business? Would you let him marry the neighbor’s 12 year old daughter?
2. Are you serious? What do you call the missiles from Gaza, the terrorism in Judea and and Samaria, Hizbollah and the Iranians in Syria?
3. How old was your rebbe’s American cousin?Neville, it is OK to eat pork for pikuach nefesh. Rav Kanievsky himself wrote that he signs what his rabbanim tell him to sign. Rav Eliashiv was stoned by extremists.As the Peleg is at war with RK he must be saying some things in private that they don’t like.
Haimy and joseph, you simply do not know what you are writing about. Many guys who are listed as learning are not exactly doing it full-time. There is also a big problem with guys in the Chareidi community getting into trouble. On the other hand, RZ yeshivot and kollelim are expanding rapidly.
Joseph, who says that their witnesses aren’t kosher eidim? What about black-hat fraudsters?
Akuperma, actually that was standard usage in pre-Artscroll Jewish translations. In fact, when Rav Kook went to London during WW1 he decided that he had to learn English but did not want to mevatel Troah so he studied English translations of the Chumash and Talmud. When he made his maiden speech one non-Jewish listener said “He speaks like a Prophet”. As for “Gd”, I have heard Orthodox rabbis use it and seen it written in Jewish publications.
There is also a book called Challenge which brings forth several possible reconciliations.
Regarding the main question, hopefully the OO will heed the criticism as did the Chassidic movement and become a legitimate stream. For example, by clarifying that there are certain acts which are prohibited but someone who has a yetzer hara is no different than someone who has some other yetzer hara (and IMHO a yetzer hara to defraud people is worse).
As for your contention that “Many MO youth are leaving Yiddishkeit in droves”, many are staying, many are moving to the right and many secular youth are coming back to some form of MO. IMHO, OO shuls are necessary as halfway houses. In fact, Rabbi Avi Weiss once commented that many people who start out in HIR become so frum that they will no longer daven there – and did not sound unhappy about it.
MRSarah, please remind me. I do not have time to look for needles in haystacks.
Haimy, it is well known that what Chareidi gedolim say in public and private are often two different things. It is pikuach nefesh for them. Rav Eliashiv was stunned by extremists when he made a deal about relocating graves. Imagine what the Pelegniks would do given that they are already at war with the rest of the Chareidim. The rest of your points are simply erev raviut.
Akuperma, Engel dealt with a non-denominational prayer. The text was “Almighty Gd, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our country. Amen”
CTL,
1. You wrote “The US Supreme Court found prayer in public school to be unconstitutional in the case brought by Madeline Murray O’Hare and the US atheists, not Jews”. “Prayer” includes both official and non-official. BTW, her name was actually spelled Madalyn Murray O’Hair.
2. Her suit (technically her son’s), Murray vs. Curlett, was consolidated with Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963), which was decided one year after Engel. As official prayer had already been declared unconstitutional it only dealt with compulsory Bible reading, which is also struck down. Interestingly, her son later rebelled against her. According to the Wikipedia, William J. “Bill” Murray III (born May 25, 1946) is an American author, Baptist minister, and social conservative lobbyist who serves as the chairman of the Religious Freedom Coalition, a non-profit organization in Washington, D.C. It lobbies Congress on issues related to aiding Christians in Islamic and Communist countries.”
3. Are you saying that amicus briefs are a waste of time?
1. Actually the Knesset has to vote to dissolve itself. However, this is a formality
2. I had a teacher who suggested adapting Khrushchev’s method of giving troublesome people jobs managing factories in the boondocks. For example, he thought that Agnew should have been made a taxi driver as he was gregarious.
CTL, you forgot about Engel vs. Vitale. ” They were supported by groups opposed to the school prayer including rabbinical organizations, Ethical Culture, and Jewish organizations. The acting parties were not members of one particular religion; despite being listed in the court papers as an atheist, plaintiff Lawrence Roth later denied that and described himself as religious but disagreed with prayer.” (Wikipedia)
Are you kidding me? Do you have any idea how a parliamentary system works? The chief of state (in Israel’s case the President, in the UK’s the Queen) gives the person recommended by a majority of the members of the parliament or the leader of the largest party the task of forming a government. Elections are held whenever he sees that he does not have sufficient support in the parliament or at a set date, whichever comes first.
Absolutely. The alternatives are an ultra-leftists antisemitic socialist and a crook who wants to force people to change their religious beliefs.
Jackson and Truman also lacked refinement yet hey are considered to be among the greatest Presidents in US history. Trump indeed has the personal morality of a rooster (but then so did JFK and Clinton) but he has done many good things. Moreover, the Democrats are drifting into the leftist fever swamp. Of course, Trump could possibly be impeached and removed if the campaign finance investigation comes up with evidence against him personally but it would have to be a smoking gun given the GOP lead in the Senate.
Joseph, on the contrary. there is a very strong need in both the IDF and civilian for high-tech people. This is a field where people with analytical ability honed by Gemara learning can make major contributions.
CTL, in the Dred Scott decision involved someone who was already property whereas the Kleppe decision involved wild burros. The Federal government cannot declare property ownerless but it can declare that something which is not owned can be, in effect, Federal property.
Trying, who says that the military does not need them? How long did you serve in the IDF ands what rank did you attain?
Takes, where do I say that? I did quote the Gra and Rav Teichtal as saying that the sin of the spies can even infect those who hold on to the Torah (the Gra also says that even a talmid chacham could be from the erev rav) in other threads but I did not mention anyone specific. You are motzi shem ra on me.
MrSarah, I can’t find the post.
Trying, are you a heretical Jew or an Arab troll? Judea and Samaria are Jewish lands. The soldiers there are conducting a war with Fakestinian squatters.
Shopping, yes but they are obviously keeping quiet about it. Or the press is not reporting their opinions.
MrSarahLevine613 (just out of curiosity, are you a Mr or a Mrs?), I do not know what the OTD percentages are for different sectors. I do know that in the RZ sector an effort is made to keep them in the community even if they are personally observant in order to limit damage and hopefully bring them or their children back. In the Chareidi community children who do not tow the line 100% are often kicked out or move to the RZ sector. There is also a very serious problem of OTD kids hanging around in Chareidi communities and getting into various levels of trouble. I myself, when I lived in Bene Beraq (in a mixed RZ-secular area) once went for a stroll on Shabbat night and had t run away from a certain corner because of a rumble between the shabbab Charieid, as they are called, and the tzeniut patrol. The next day posters went up warning people to stay away from that corner.
Shopping, Rav Shteinman said that one cannot go to college, even a Chareidi college, and still be Chareidi. Therefore those who go to college either disagree with him or no longer want to be Chareidi.