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BTW, just who are “us”? Have you made aliya?
Nobody except Lapid wants to put them in jail. Simply take away their benefits. IMHO, just as there is a Loyalty in Culture law (although really I am against all government aid to cultural events and sports) there should be a Loyalty in Torah law. Any institution that does not support the state should have to depend on private donations and tuition. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you.
Iacisrmma, in my experience “hatzlacha” means “don’t expect any help from me”.
Takes,
1. That is referring to a spiritual burden such as LGBT, fraudsters, etc.
2. Rambam says that the chukkim are also logical. We just may not be able to perceive the logic. Regarding eidim zommemim, various Rishonim give reasons. Ramban says that if the bet din din punished the person he was really guilty (eidim mezamim do not say that he was innocent, only that the first two eidim were lying). Abarbanel says that it would undermine public faith in the judicial system to punish the eidim after the defendant has been punished.Neville, the process of teshuva has nothing to do with politics. In fact, it is in spite of the political machinations of the Chareidi parties. It has to do with an inner yearning of Jews coupled with efforts of machzerim b’teshuva who understand today’s non-observant Jews.
MrSarah, there is actually movement between different streams of Orthodoxy. There are even organizations in both the US and Israel that counsel people who were brought up in communities that are inappropriate for them but do not want to stop keeping mitzvot.
ZG, also the NK does not take government money, The rest want to have their cake and eat it too.
MrSarah, why can’t they do their service in DF battei midrash, give shiurim to soldiers, etc.?
Mod, actions are halachic issues. Having a yetzer hara is a given.
DY, what non-Torah path? Defending Am Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael? I personally think that Rav Nachman Kahana’s plan was a good one. The Rabbanut would give exams. The best performers would get a deferment for a few years (I don’t remember exactly how many) to learn, the rest would enlist. After the few years are up the best would be exempted and the rest would become chaplains. During this period those learning would occasionally give shiurim to soldiers. They would also declare that they are learning for the success of the IDF. This would allow the real learners to continue to learn and give those who are not suited an alternative.
DY, the Wikipedia says that holy sites ” are sites that religions considers to be of special religious significance”. The IDF certainly has special religious significance for Jews as it is doing the great mitzva of defending EY and AY. If you want to quibble about it being a place I have no objection to changing my post to “holy organization”.
DY, the IDF is performing the sacred task of protecting Am Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael, including Chareidi and leftist ingrates.
The IDF very much needs the Chareidim and it is a holy place. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach said that when he felt the need to go to kivrei tzadikkim he goes to the military cemetery on Mt. Herzl.
Ben and Manitou, “fact” 3 is also false. Only the Satmars and NKs said that founding a state was assur because of the non-shevuot (I have already posted about this several times). Many Chareidim actually supported it. For example, the head of the Aguda signed the Declaration of Indepence. SOthers opposed because they thought that the Arabs would overrun it in response. The Americans and British also thought that. They were wrong and BG was right.
Anon1m0us, would you please translate “unvaynig” for those of us who are not fluent in creole German,
Joseph, have you sought professional help for your issues? You obviously are overcompensating for guilt feelings about not living in EY.
The real issue is that the Chareidi sector is a victim of its own success. It is possible that in a small group all will be full-time learners and that the rest will agree to support them/ However, according to the Law of Large Numbers there will be many who are unfit. They will full out in some manner, either by going completely OTD or RZ and leave, hanging around Chareidi community and causing trouble or looking for other forms of action like violent demonstrations. Moreover, the rest will not support them and there are no gevirim from a generation that worked in their own communities. So either Chareidi is going to have to go back to what it was or the Chareidi gedolim will have to push out all those who cannot make the cut, hope that they go to another Orthodox stream and be satisfied with small communities.
Neville,
1, Both of his parents were born Jewish and he had rabbinic ancestors. His father was baptized in 1817. Marx and his siblings were baptized in 1825 and his mother followed in 1827.
2. Ayn Rand was born Alyssa Rosenbaum. Both her parents were Jewish. it is not clear why she changed her name. In any case, she later became an atheist although never denied her Jewish ancestry and was even a strong supporter of Israel. I do agree that the terms Left and Right are not so applicable to American politics as they originally denoted republicans and monarchists according to where they sat in the French National Assembly. The libertarians (Rand, BTW, said about the anarcho-capitalist wing “Anarchism is the most irrational, anti-intellectual notion ever spun by the concrete-bound, context-dropping, whim-worshiping fringe of the collectivist movement, where it properly belongs.”) are especially hard to pin down as they are Right on economic issues but Left on social issues.Neville, I know of no such thing. Of course, you can claim that only your officially recognized poskim are major leaguers but I dispute you.
Joseph, that’s very funny but don’t give up your day job. Would you care to guess how the Gra and the Baal haTanya came to thrown in jail?
Neville, Marx was less than a secular Jew. He was baptized as a child and became a rabid antisemite (see Karl Marx on the Jewish Question). BTW, there have also been secular Jews on the Right (e.g. Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Ludwig von Mises, Ernest van den Haag, Frank Meyer – who converted to Catholicism just before his death). Interestingly, Mises was anti-religious but his chief student is an orthodox rabbi, Rabbi Prof. (Emeritus) Israel Kirzner who is considered to be Mises’ continuance in Economics.
Avreich,
1. Horaaat sha’ah. On the other end, would you make your 13 year old son a partner in the business? Would you let him marry the neighbor’s 12 year old daughter?
2. Are you serious? What do you call the missiles from Gaza, the terrorism in Judea and and Samaria, Hizbollah and the Iranians in Syria?
3. How old was your rebbe’s American cousin?Neville, it is OK to eat pork for pikuach nefesh. Rav Kanievsky himself wrote that he signs what his rabbanim tell him to sign. Rav Eliashiv was stoned by extremists.As the Peleg is at war with RK he must be saying some things in private that they don’t like.
Haimy and joseph, you simply do not know what you are writing about. Many guys who are listed as learning are not exactly doing it full-time. There is also a big problem with guys in the Chareidi community getting into trouble. On the other hand, RZ yeshivot and kollelim are expanding rapidly.
Joseph, who says that their witnesses aren’t kosher eidim? What about black-hat fraudsters?
Akuperma, actually that was standard usage in pre-Artscroll Jewish translations. In fact, when Rav Kook went to London during WW1 he decided that he had to learn English but did not want to mevatel Troah so he studied English translations of the Chumash and Talmud. When he made his maiden speech one non-Jewish listener said “He speaks like a Prophet”. As for “Gd”, I have heard Orthodox rabbis use it and seen it written in Jewish publications.
There is also a book called Challenge which brings forth several possible reconciliations.
Regarding the main question, hopefully the OO will heed the criticism as did the Chassidic movement and become a legitimate stream. For example, by clarifying that there are certain acts which are prohibited but someone who has a yetzer hara is no different than someone who has some other yetzer hara (and IMHO a yetzer hara to defraud people is worse).
As for your contention that “Many MO youth are leaving Yiddishkeit in droves”, many are staying, many are moving to the right and many secular youth are coming back to some form of MO. IMHO, OO shuls are necessary as halfway houses. In fact, Rabbi Avi Weiss once commented that many people who start out in HIR become so frum that they will no longer daven there – and did not sound unhappy about it.
MRSarah, please remind me. I do not have time to look for needles in haystacks.
Haimy, it is well known that what Chareidi gedolim say in public and private are often two different things. It is pikuach nefesh for them. Rav Eliashiv was stunned by extremists when he made a deal about relocating graves. Imagine what the Pelegniks would do given that they are already at war with the rest of the Chareidim. The rest of your points are simply erev raviut.
Akuperma, Engel dealt with a non-denominational prayer. The text was “Almighty Gd, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our country. Amen”
CTL,
1. You wrote “The US Supreme Court found prayer in public school to be unconstitutional in the case brought by Madeline Murray O’Hare and the US atheists, not Jews”. “Prayer” includes both official and non-official. BTW, her name was actually spelled Madalyn Murray O’Hair.
2. Her suit (technically her son’s), Murray vs. Curlett, was consolidated with Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963), which was decided one year after Engel. As official prayer had already been declared unconstitutional it only dealt with compulsory Bible reading, which is also struck down. Interestingly, her son later rebelled against her. According to the Wikipedia, William J. “Bill” Murray III (born May 25, 1946) is an American author, Baptist minister, and social conservative lobbyist who serves as the chairman of the Religious Freedom Coalition, a non-profit organization in Washington, D.C. It lobbies Congress on issues related to aiding Christians in Islamic and Communist countries.”
3. Are you saying that amicus briefs are a waste of time?
1. Actually the Knesset has to vote to dissolve itself. However, this is a formality
2. I had a teacher who suggested adapting Khrushchev’s method of giving troublesome people jobs managing factories in the boondocks. For example, he thought that Agnew should have been made a taxi driver as he was gregarious.
CTL, you forgot about Engel vs. Vitale. ” They were supported by groups opposed to the school prayer including rabbinical organizations, Ethical Culture, and Jewish organizations. The acting parties were not members of one particular religion; despite being listed in the court papers as an atheist, plaintiff Lawrence Roth later denied that and described himself as religious but disagreed with prayer.” (Wikipedia)
Are you kidding me? Do you have any idea how a parliamentary system works? The chief of state (in Israel’s case the President, in the UK’s the Queen) gives the person recommended by a majority of the members of the parliament or the leader of the largest party the task of forming a government. Elections are held whenever he sees that he does not have sufficient support in the parliament or at a set date, whichever comes first.
Absolutely. The alternatives are an ultra-leftists antisemitic socialist and a crook who wants to force people to change their religious beliefs.
Jackson and Truman also lacked refinement yet hey are considered to be among the greatest Presidents in US history. Trump indeed has the personal morality of a rooster (but then so did JFK and Clinton) but he has done many good things. Moreover, the Democrats are drifting into the leftist fever swamp. Of course, Trump could possibly be impeached and removed if the campaign finance investigation comes up with evidence against him personally but it would have to be a smoking gun given the GOP lead in the Senate.
Joseph, on the contrary. there is a very strong need in both the IDF and civilian for high-tech people. This is a field where people with analytical ability honed by Gemara learning can make major contributions.
CTL, in the Dred Scott decision involved someone who was already property whereas the Kleppe decision involved wild burros. The Federal government cannot declare property ownerless but it can declare that something which is not owned can be, in effect, Federal property.
Trying, who says that the military does not need them? How long did you serve in the IDF ands what rank did you attain?
Takes, where do I say that? I did quote the Gra and Rav Teichtal as saying that the sin of the spies can even infect those who hold on to the Torah (the Gra also says that even a talmid chacham could be from the erev rav) in other threads but I did not mention anyone specific. You are motzi shem ra on me.
MrSarah, I can’t find the post.
Trying, are you a heretical Jew or an Arab troll? Judea and Samaria are Jewish lands. The soldiers there are conducting a war with Fakestinian squatters.
Shopping, yes but they are obviously keeping quiet about it. Or the press is not reporting their opinions.
MrSarahLevine613 (just out of curiosity, are you a Mr or a Mrs?), I do not know what the OTD percentages are for different sectors. I do know that in the RZ sector an effort is made to keep them in the community even if they are personally observant in order to limit damage and hopefully bring them or their children back. In the Chareidi community children who do not tow the line 100% are often kicked out or move to the RZ sector. There is also a very serious problem of OTD kids hanging around in Chareidi communities and getting into various levels of trouble. I myself, when I lived in Bene Beraq (in a mixed RZ-secular area) once went for a stroll on Shabbat night and had t run away from a certain corner because of a rumble between the shabbab Charieid, as they are called, and the tzeniut patrol. The next day posters went up warning people to stay away from that corner.
Shopping, Rav Shteinman said that one cannot go to college, even a Chareidi college, and still be Chareidi. Therefore those who go to college either disagree with him or no longer want to be Chareidi.
Actually the new regs will not force anybody to do anything. They simply say that if the schools do not provide a certain number of hours of secular studies they will not receive state money for textbooks (why bother if they are not using them?), transportation, etc. The yeshivot can elect to pass on the money and either raise tuitions, look for private donors or look for community support or any combination of the above,
Howdid Logicyid’s chotzaat shem ra on Naftali Moster and Lipa Schmetzer pass moderation?
AY, I have news for you. They are already abandoning it. More and more young Chareidim are joining the IDF, getting secular educations and going out into the general job market. The fact of the matter is that the Chareidi innovation was only a horaat sha’ah for two generations from the get-go.
As for Rav Kanievsky, his grandson controls who sees him and what he hears. He himself wrote that he signs any proclamation his rabbis (courtiers) tell him to sign.OTD, I also went to public school. I do not know how old you are, but in my day (I am 64) the secular education was very good. It provided the basis for citizenship as well as basic knowledge of science and math necessary to go further. In fact, in my (specialized) high school there were a number of Orthodox kids who came for the advanced academic education. One went on to become a director of the Bank of Israel. I do agree, however, that today the situation is much different, as is society in general. The wife of a friend of mine once commented that her kids grew up frummer than her but she grew up cleaner.
Neville, Rav Kook said that we should not use either as those words prevent teshuva. People with the label “secular” think that as a religious term it does not apply to them whereas those with the label “frum” think that they do not need to do teshuva. <National Review recently ran an article blasting liberals for excusing black antisemites like Alice Walker. It seems to me that certain people excuse “frum” fraudsters and even those who do much more serious crimes.
Avram, FYI Yirmiahu (29:7) directs us to pray for the peace and prosperity of the city. Chazal say (Pirkei Avot 3:2) that we should pray for the government as without it people would swallow each other alive. How can anyone object to the prayer for thק state of Israel. Even if they object to ראשית צמיחת גאולתינו they can leave it out.
אָבִינוּ שֶׁבַּשָּׁמַיִם,צוּר יִשְׂרָאֵל וְגוֹאֲלוֹ,בָּרֵךְ אֶת מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל, רֵאשִׁית צְמִיחַת גְּאֻלָּתֵנוּ. הָגֵן עָלֶיהָ בְּאֶבְרַת חַסְדֶּךָ,וּפְרֹשׂ עָלֶיהָ סֻכַּת שְׁלוֹמֶךָ,וּשְׁלַח אוֹרְךָ וַאֲמִתְּךָ לְרָאשֶׁיהָ, שָׂרֶיהָ וְיוֹעֲצֶיהָ, וְתַקְּנֵם בְּעֵצָה טוֹבָה מִלְּפָנֶיךָ.חַזֵּק אֶת יְדֵי מְגִנֵּי אֶרֶץ קׇדְשֵׁנוּ,וְהַנְחִילֵם אֱלֹהֵינוּ יְשׁוּעָה וַעֲטֶרֶת נִצָּחוֹן תְּעַטְּרֵם, וְנָתַתָּ שָׁלוֹם בָּאָרֶץ, וְשִׂמְחַת עוֹלָם לְיוֹשְׁבֶיהָ. וְאֶת אַחֵינוּ כָּל בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל, פְּקׇד נָא בְּכָל אַרְצוֹת פְּזוּרֵיהֶם,
וְתוֹלִיכֵם מְהֵרָה קוֹמְמִיּוּת לְצִיּוֹן עִירֶךָ וְלִירוּשָׁלַיִם מִשְׁכַּן שְׁמֶךָ, כַּכָּתוּב בְּתוֹרַת מֹשֶׁה עַבְדֶּךְ (דברים ל,ד-ו): “אִם יִהְיֶה נִדַּחֲךָ בִּקְצֵה הַשָּׁמָיִם, מִשָּׁם יְקַבֶּצְךָ יְיָ אֱלֹהֶיךָ וּמִשָּׁם יִקָּחֶךָ. וֶהֱבִיאֲךָ יְיָ אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֶל הָאָרֶץ אֲשֶׁר יָרְשׁוּ אֲבֹתֶיךָ וִירִשְׁתָּהּ, וְהֵיטִבְךָ וְהִרְבְּךָ מֵאֲבֹתֶיךָ. וּמָל יְיָ אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֶת לְבָבְךָ וְאֶת לְבַב זַרְעֶךָ,
לְאַהֲבָה אֶת יְיָ אֱלֹהֶיךָ בְּכׇל לְבָבְךָ וּבְכׇל נַפְשְׁךָ, לְמַעַן חַיֶּיךָ.” וְיַחֵד לְבָבֵנוּ לְאַהֲבָה וּלְיִרְאָה אֶת שְׁמֶךָ,
וְלִשְׁמֹר אֶת כׇּל דִּבְרֵי תּוֹרָתֶךָ, וּשְׁלַח לָנוּ מְהֵרָה בֶּן דָּוִד מְשִׁיחַ צִדְקֶךָ, לִפְדּוֹת מְחַכֵּי קֵץ יְשׁוּעָתֶךָ.
הוֹפַע בַּהֲדַר גְּאוֹן עֻזֶּךָ עַל כׇּל יוֹשְׁבֵי תֵּבֵל אַרְצֶךָ, וְיֹאמַר כֹּל אֲשֶׁר נְשָׁמָה בְּאַפּוֹ: “יְיָ אֱלֹהֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל מֶלֶךְ,
וּמַלְכוּתוֹ בַּכֹּל מָשָׁלָה!”אָמֵן סֶלָה.Alles,
1. The story about Chevron is a fake story. Actually te Zionists sent emissaries to the rabbanim offering armed protection. the rabbanim said that it would inflame the Arabs and that they had good relations with local arab leaders who would prevent a pogrom.
2. The story about The CI and BG is also a fake story. Actually, the CI said “Our camel carries a greater load so it should go first”. BG said “Ours also carries a heavy load”. BTW, the CI also said that someone who is not really learning full-time should be reported to the IDF authorities.Mod, why do you allow these topics but not not my post of Rav Eliezer Melamed’s dissenting essay?
Horrified, does your shul say the “misheberach” for the soldiers?
Neville, Sarah wrote either an apology or an acknowledgement of the soldiers’ contribution. Considering the treatment Chareidi soldiers receive in Chareidi neighborhoods with no one protesting shows a complete lack of hakkarat tova. Do these alleged “bnei Torah” learn at all? If so they should stop immediately and completely. The Gra says in Even Sheleima 1:11 that Torah is compared to rain because it makes everything grow. Someone with innate bad middot who learns will become even worse. Rav Aviner adds that he will even find
“Torah “rationalizations for his actions thus magnifying the chillul Hashem.AJ, I have news for you. At least at one time Orthodox teachers taught in public schools and probably still do as the salaries are much higher.
Shoppin, who says? If so, then the yeshiva boys should be the first ones drafted.
NYer,
1. Rav Ovadia said that without the army there would be no yeshivot.
2. Actually unity is the key. None of Achav’s soldiers were killed in battle because they were united. Unfortunately, part of the Chareidi world has formed its own separate nation. It does not take part in Am Yisrael’s celebration (Yom haAtzmaut) or sorrow (Yom haZicharon). Rambam says that such a person has no place in the next world even if he has Torah and good deeds.Why not a Chareidi Hesder? At the very least let them learn IIDF battei midrash, give shiurim, put out sefarim, etc.