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Nisht, machloket is minhag Yisrael. I new someone who was sitting and learning Gemara while waiting for a meeting. An elderly man approached him and excitedly asked if he wanted an argument. BTW, what do you think of Javad Zarif’s chiddush on Ahashverosh?
Nisht, I accept your concession of defeat. BTW, I find it very interesting that no one addressing the issue of their lack of a Jewish wedding ceremony (they were married in a church ceremony before his “conversion”). According to Rav Moshe that means that they were never halachically married so it does not matter if his gerut was valid or not.
As for your comments about “Uri ‘Tzedek” while one can agree or disagree with their positions (in general on economic issues I would put much more stock in the opinions of Rabbi Prof. Israel Kirzner’s and Rabbi Dr. Aharon Levine because of their expertise in both Torah and Economics). However, to call them “anti-religious” is hotzaat shem ra. Apparently you want to prove that Haman was right when he said that we are split up and scattered.
Nisht,
1. Then the pesakim of those Charidi dayanim are ,in your opinion, completely null and void?
2. The rest is hotzaat shem ra. Who says that army service is considered enough? Who says that Rav Goren’s pesak was for political reasons (and how do you define that term)? What about the above mentioned Chareidi dayanim?
Ubiquitin, you have demonstrated nothing of the sort.
Ubiquitin, this is obviously lashon guzma. If Rav Goren paskened on something in agreement with the gedolim mentioned obviously they would not say that those pesakim are invalid. This in fact, has a long tradition.
The Maharshal wrote about the Migdal Oz:
?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????, ????? ??? ????? ???? (????? ???”? ?????), ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???’ ???? ????? ???? (??”? ????? ?”? ??’ ?).
The Raavad’s comments about Rambam are also famous.
See on this Chavat Yair 152 (generally printed after Sefer Chafetz chaim).
Parenthetically, once I wrote an article opposing the Carlebach Kabbat Shabbat and one of the rabbanim in my community wrote a blistering reply in which he called me a chutzpan. I was very pleased that he considered my writing worthy of a rebuttal.
I note that no one has answered my question about the carnival of retroactive cancellations of conversions.
Purim sameach.
Ubiquitin,
1. They do not say “all his pesakim” but “his pesakim”. Apparently they are only referring to this one case.
2. Only four gedolim signed. Rav Zolti also disagreed in print. I do not know of any other gadol (Rav Avraham Shapira, Rav Mordechai Eliahu, Rav Nebentzahl, etc.) who disparaged Rav Goren.
3. For a balanced discussion google “Rabbi Bleich the Langer case” and you will get a link to his article in “Contemporary Halachic Problems”.
4. I repeat my question. What about the recent wave of Charieidi dayanim invalkidating conversions?
Each group has it own gadol/im.
Ubiquitin, I did not see a search engine on the Aguda website nor did I find that quote on Google with the exception of your post. I did, however, find that the Aguda itself condemned the pesak. In any case, all it says is that the pesak was wrong. It does not say that he was disqualified as a posek.
As for the age of the Universe, has anyone actually read Dr. Schroeder’s article or the various explanations in “Challenge”? BTW, Rav Kook says that so far the Theory of Evolution is the closest secular theory to the kabbalistic description while adding a caveat that it may be replaced some time. He wrote (Shemonah Kevatzim 1:594):
?????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ???????? ??? ??? ????. ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???????, ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???”?, ??”? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ??????? ???, ?”? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????, ???? ?????? ???????. ?????? ???? ????? ???????, ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????, ?? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?????. ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???????? ????, ??? ?????, ???? ????????? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ????, ??”? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???????. ??????, ??? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????, ??????? ?? ????? ????, ???? ???? ???? ???, ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???, ?????? ???? ????, ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????.
See also “Rav Kook on Noah: The Age of the Universe” on the ravkooktorah website.
DY,
1. Borokovski was compelled to go through a gerut by his father-in-law, who had info that could have gotten him in trouble with the law, after marrying his wife in a church ceremony. There is no record of them having ever had a Jewish wedding. He continued to go to church and did not know where one puts tefillin and could not even complete the first verses of “Lecha Dodi” and “Shema Yisrael”. Interestingly, Chareidi dayanim today are quick to invalidate conversions simply because the rabbanim who performed the conversions are not part of their group.
2. Your comment about Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rav Moshe is hotzaat shem ra.
Joseph,
1. His conversion would only be invalid if he was an apikoros at the time of his conversion.
2. Did Rav Eliashiv change his mind after the Langer case? he resigned form the Rabbanut Supreme Rabbinical Court after Rav Goren annulled the conversion of a man who continued to go to church after his conversion and thus cleared his wife’s children from her second marriage (after #1 disappeared) from mamzerut? On what level does one have to believe that the age of the world is 5,777 years? Does the count start with the Big Bang, people starting to speak (that is to say, when they became peopel), when they started to write? Relative to what (see “Age of the Universe” by Dr. Gerald Schroeder on the Aish HaTorah website).
Lilmod, he did more than give his blessing. He financed it.
Joseph, are you saying that if a berit mila occurs during the sefira the baalei berit may not celebrate? The Torah obligation to thank Hashem for the state certainly pushes off the aveilut of the sefira, which is only a minhag.
I heard that a rav in Queens (I do not remember his name) was subjected to threats for trying to reform the catering industry but in the end he won.
Lilmod, besides expressing regret one must change his ways. If Dr. Ephraim Shach regretted the way he turned out why didn’t he go to learn in Ponevich and take over his father’s position?
Joseph and ZD, I wrote “in uniform”. I did not write “IDF”. During the War of Independence he was a member of the Hagana and also fought alongside the Etzel in Yerushalayim. Actually, while at the start of the war there were three separate underground armies, they very quickly merged and became the IDF (??? ???? ?????? from ????? ???? ?????, ????, ????? ???? ?????). After the war he served for an additional seven years and reached the equivalent rank of Lt. Colonel.
As for how Rav Kook and his son dressed, Rav Tzvi Yehuda said that a rav should dress in a manner that would command respect from his congregants and talmidim. However, he felt that an IDF uniform was really more honorable.
Time, so Rav Schach was a Zionistic anti_Zionist? As for his son, did he apologize for the way he turned out or hurting his father (Rav Lopian went to his parents’ graves every time he went to America and apologized for hurting them by not going with them even though he was sure that he did the right thing)? If the former, why not change?
Future and KJ, so Rav Schach wanted to run the country? Did that make him a Zionist? The Brisker Rav once asked R. Amram Blau why he demonstrated. He replied “Because this land is mine”. The BR replied “Then you too are a Zionist”.
Joseph, Torah is not a yerusha but a morasha (see Yerushalmi Bava Basra 8:2 that morasha is a weaker form of inheritance). Many sons of talmidei chachamim have been ballei battim. Rav Moshe Soloveichik had one son who was a Chemsitry professor in YU and one of Rav Mordechai Eliahu’ssons is a frum lawyer.
As for Rav Schach, I think that he was actually a non-Zionist in that he did not accept the philosophical underpinnings of religious Zionism but did not oppose Israel’s existence as a state.. An anti-Zionist would not have called for people to vote in Israeli elections, much less found a political party.
ZD, when Rav Shaar Yishuv Cohen zatsal came to a wedding in uniform dureing the War of Independence some nudniks complained about the way he was dressed. Rav Tzvi Yehuda asked why the dress of paritzim was better.
Logician, on the contrary, one should not consider oneself to be a rasha (Pirkei Avot 2,13). This can lead to a person giving up on himself c”v (Robert Louis Stevenson wrote about this in “The Bottle Imp” – chochma sheb’goyim). Rtaher you should understand your greatness by virtue of having a tzeleem Elokim and being part of Am Yisrael. This will help to spur you to improve.
Bochur, this is a complex issue. You do not mention if you grew up secular or frum. A girl who is a BT/CBT (I was once told that a baal teshuva comes from a secular home and a chozer b’teshuva is someone who grew up frum, went OTD and came back) might understand you more. If you come from a secular background she might be moire understanding of your family. On the other hand, many FFBs like the excitement about Judaism that they find lacking in some FFBs. You also do not say for how long you have been frum. If you are jsut starting ot might be better to hold off until you find a derech and settle in.
Joseph, first one must be a talmid chacham. After that he must learn Kabbala in depth and refine his middot. There are yeshivot for Kabbala. one of them is Rav Yaakov Hillel’s yeshiva, Ahavat Shalom. There is also a very famous yeshiva in Yerushalayim called Bet El (not to be confused with the yeshiva in the yishuv Bet El, which is almost 300 years old.
Lightbrite, yes a mekubbal has special kabbalistic insights. This is the definition of a mekubbal. However, as I previously posted, there are many charlatans. Caveat emptor!
Yungerman, how about teshuva? How about professional (i.e. psychologist) help. How about asking a known rav? Regarding mekubbalim, those who are don’t talk about it and those who talk about it are not. Some of the phonies have caused a great deal of damage (breaking up marriages. bilking people out of all their money, etc.) . Some have even conned people into doing extremely serious aveirot.
Regarding the Chafetz Chaim and Trotsky, there is a story about a melamed in Russia who threw out a kid because his parents couldn’t pay the tuition. After the revolution he managed to sneak across the border into Poland. He went to see the CC but he refused to see him. When he asked the shamash why he said “Because of what you did to the Bronstein boy”. However, there is another story that the CC put a pulsa d’nura on Trotsky. Interestingly, Trotsky’s great-grandson, David Axelrod, is frum, a Kahanist and lives in a settlement.
Sometimes we believe a dying declaration because a person does not sin when he has nothing to gain (Rambam Mishna Archin 6:1). However, we do not believe it against a presumption (Baba Batra 134b and SA EH 157,7).
As for the three types of people who discovered that they are Jewish, the first must undergo giur l’chumra as it cannot be known if they married non-Jews during the last 500+ years (BTW, there are also many in Latin America, Spain and Portugal). Rav Aharon Soloveichik, however, wrote:
“They must be treated like full Jews in every way (counted for a
minyan, given aliyot, etc.).
Only when one of these anousim wishes to marry a Jew, must he or she
undergo full conversion. That is, he or she must undergo immersion in
a mikve (without the blessing) and full acceptance of mitzvot or
commitment to the Torah. A man, if he is uncircumcised, must in
addition undergo circumcision; if he is already circumcised, then he
has to undergo hatafat dam brit.”
There is an organization called The Association of Crypto-Jews of the Americas which works to re-integrate them in the Jewish community.
Regarding the latter, archives can be searched for documentation.
Time, what context? to what are you referring? So far as not looking at someone, usually that is reserved for internecine conflicts, which are the worst kind. For example, when Rav Arye Levine went to visit Amram Bloi in jail the latter turned away and declared that it was prohibited to look in the face of a “rasha” (because Rav Arye was close to Zionists and a talmid chaver of Rav Kook). One of Rav Kapach’s sons said that when he walked into a shul the gabbai recognized him and announced that he could not be counted for a minyan as he is a Darda’i (a group founded by Rav Kapach’s grandfather that strictly adheres to Rambam’s rulings and does not hold by the Zohar and Kabbala).
Akuperma, there was a certain shul where everyone did a dip at a certain place during the hakafot. They told the new rav who asked about it that it was a well-established custom. He checked the shul records and discovered that nce there was a low-hanging chandelier over that place.
Mammele, Rashi disagrees with that chumra (Yevamot 88a d”h v’amar). It certainly is no way to keep a community intact, not to mention families. In fact, Rav Moshe ate at a simcha given by a baal bayit. when asked he said “A single witness is believed for prohibitions. the Halacha allows me to eat. On the other hand, embarrassing someone is a Torah prohibition” (see Shailot Yaavetz 2,15). In fact, there are some opinions that a person who does not go by that rule is a heretic – he disputes Chazal (Pitchei Teshuva YD 116,10). The Ran says that even if the food is not kosher he does not get any aveira. However, if he decides that he is smarter than Chazal and he slips he is responsible.
Of course, some people feel the need to say “Mirror, mirror on the wall. Who is the frummest of them all?”
Lightbrite, why should it be one word? Shmenoneh esrei is the feminine form of eighteen (“beracha” is feminine). Shemona asar is masculine. It is not possessive as the brachot do not belong to someone or something. It is a Hebrew grammatical form call “semichut” which joins two words. For example, “bet sefer”, “battei sefer” which join “bayit” (“battim”) and “sefer”.
BTW, for what is is worth in French it is “dix-huit” (lit. “ten-eight”).
One has to tell him privately in an honorable and non-confromtational fashion (e.g. “Dad. The Torah says
“).Lilmod, I dispute by citing Rambam Hilchot Melachim 10,2) with statements by Rav Kook and the Chazon Ish regarding the status of non-observant Jews in our time as effectively being anoosim.
Yytz, the way I heard it, if someone does not believe in Hashem then Hashem does not believe in him (see Vayikra 26,21).
Lightbrite, the problem is that many people have various talents. IMHO, this is another beracha of increased life expectancy and good health at older ages. people can divide their lives and do different things in the same gilgul. For example, I have a friend whose HS Chemistry teacher had been a cop for twenty years, retired and went back to school. I do not know if he did it but he said that he planned to teach for twenty years, get another pension and do something else.
Huju, Rav Kook said (regarding secular Zionists) that the fact that someone is Hashem’s tool does not depend on his knowledge that he is a tool or even his personal merits. I think one would have to be spiritually blind not to see Hashem’s hand in Trump’s election after being down ten points in the polls a week before. Already Trump has not only reversed Obama’s anti-Israel policy but abandoned the mystical belief in the two-state solution. Let’s wait and see.
Lilmod, you contended that non-Jews cannot be tinokkot shenishbu by definition. I disputed that contention.
Neville, I dispute your summary as well as your contention that “all the rabbis” said so.
Nechoma & Lilmod, we have discussed the difference between goyim and bnei Noach in rabbinic Hebrew in another thread. However, to recap, the former do not keep the sheva mitzvot (in particular a”z) and the latter is a general term for non-Jews although it is sometimes used more specifically for those who do keep the seven. Non-Jews are expected to figure them out themselves (Hilchot Melachim 10,1). This is known as natural law. However, if he is compelled to violate one of his mitzvot he is exempt from punishment (ibid Halacha 2). If we look at being brainwashed by his teachers or the atmosphere in society as a type of oness (regarding Jews see Iggerot HaRaya (Rav Kook) v. 1 pp. 170-171, Chazon Ish YD 2:28 and Rav Mordechai Eliahu “Darchei Halacha”) then he would be exempt.
Time,
1. Rav Chaim Brisker raised money to save a Bundist who tried to kill a Czarist general.
2. Who says that there is no din tinnok shenishba by Noahides?
3. Are you volunteering to be the snake to bite portzei gader?
4. Mitzarayim and Kenan were equal (Sifra Achrei Mot Parsha 9).
Lightbrite, I suggest that go to a pharmacy and ask for nails. Be careful to pronounce the ayin properly. They are ????? not ?????.
Lightbrite, according to Rav Soloveichik Amalek is any ideological anti-Semite.
Time,
1. Learn Pirkei Avot. I would say that asribing oneself a the sole expositor of truth (in Russian “pravda”) is an example.
2. Actualy those were the sins of Egypt, against which the Torah warns us. Thus the people cried on Mt. Sinai.
3. If the dragons turn into cute pets we adopt them.
Time,
1. according to the Ran (Derasha 5) they had bad middot.
2. According to Rambam (Hilchot Melachim 6:5)they were given the chance to leave or accept our rule (presumably the sheva mitzvot). Apparently he held that that was their main sin.
Lilmod, Rav Schach was speaking after the fact. We cannot know beforehand how much hishtadlut Hashem wants us to do as a condition for getting something. As there is a difference of opinion among the poskim (google “Shaking hands with the opposite gender? – Mi Yodeya”) she might want to ask her LOR – and he might want to ask her a few questions first.
BTW,shaking with the left hand is considered offensive as handshaking originated as a way to show that one was not concealing a knife (a 2,500 year old depiction of two soldiers shaking hands can be found on part of a stele on display in the Pergamon Museum, Berlin).Perhaps “sinister” comes from the Latin word for left-handed because left-handed people naturally wanted to shake with their left hands.
Lightbrite, as the person was learning Gemara I think that the intention was to discuss Gemara. That is a very serious argument.
What about people who wear jackets without ties? In Israel this is common in some sectors and is becoming common in wider circles around the world. BTW, according to some studies ties can cause health problems because of compression of the venous return. In the UK they were banned from hospitals because they spread bacteria.
ZD, someone I knew once was sitting and learning by himself when an elderly man walked up to him and excited asked if he wanted an argument.
Rav Mordechai Eliahu says that one may daven without a jacket if one would walk in the street without it(see Aruch Hashulchan, OC 91:6-7).
CTL,
I now confess my sin. In my misspent youth I watched TV. Among my favorite shows were”Perry Mason”(#2 on the ABA list of best lawyer shows), “Owen Marshall, Counselor at Law” (#12) and “Judd for the Defense” (#22). I also saw the original version of “Twelve Angry Men” (excellent psychological study and very Chareidi – not one woman in the whole movie) as well as take-offs on “The Odd Couple” and “All in the Family”.
In any case, TY for the correction. However, my understanding is that a judge can/will only overturn a verdict if he thinks that it is way out of line. On the other hand, there is jury nullification.
As for your semantic disagreement, lehavdil elef alfei hevdalim, Rav Aviner says that a rav who answers a question according to what has already been written in books is not paskening but relating the halacha. “Paskening” means giving a ruling on a new question.
So now for $544,072.11 (the value of 64,000 1958 dollars in today’s money) question. Do you agree with Joseph or me?
Joseph,
1. An American trial judge is more like a referee than a judge. The jury decides the verdict. the judge only relates the legal issues after receiving opinions by the two lawyers. An appeals judge can use Talmudic reasoning and psychological insights. They can also cite Jewish law to support their opinions. CJ Warren cited Rambam’s explanation of why a confession is inadmissible in a criminal case in the “Miranda” decision and Justice Scalia cited Chazal’s statement that a judge who accepts a bribe loses divine inspiration in “Caperton v. A. T. Massey Coal Co” (see “Justice Scalia As Talmudic Scholar” by Natahhn Lewin on-line).
2. Did you read Rav Moshe’s teshuva? I did, however, hear about a case where two Chassidim took their case to a secular court and the frum judge rebuked them for not going to a bet din. I do not know about the US but in Israel judges can clear their calendars by sending the parties to arbitration or mediation. The bet din of Eretz Hemdah-Gazit has such a sterling reputation that even non-observant judges refer cases to them.
Joseph,
1. Google “Can a Jew serve as a secular judge?” I would add that where the Jews are non-observant there is no issur of ????? ???? ????? (see Iggerot Moshe YD 1:72).
2. If you are talking about a ????, there is no issue regarding gentiles. Regarding Israel, Rav Shaul Yisraeli says (Amud HaYemini 12:5 – available on-line) that it only refers to a position held for life and passed on to the incumbent’s son . Someone who can be turned out of office by the public or does not hold the position for life or whose son does not inherit it does not hold a ????. Rather (s)he is an employee of the public – and anyone can be an employee.
3. Rav Yaakov Ariel says that it is a mitzva for someone who can rule in such a way that the ruling will be upheld on appeal and is in line with the Halacha to be a judge. He also encouraged a certain knowledgeable woman to study Law and pursue a career in public service.
Ubiquitin, you implied it. You also implied that the time to make the horaat sha’ah is now. That puts you more than sixty years behind the times. Really, you are probably over seventy years behind the times because the time strated right after the Holocaust. However, more than sixty includes more than seventy.
Ubiquitin, the CI obviously made that statement over sixty years ago. Therefore, by stating it as a need for now you are sixty years behind the times.
Akuperma, being that you frequent Boro Park I suggest that you pay a visit to Rabbi Prof. Israel Kirzner. He can certainly give you talk on Keynes and Hayek. In any case, not everyone can open a store in Williamsburg or Boro Park. Even those who do need to be able to communicate in English. Math trains one to think analytically. In fact, Rambam says at the beginning of the Guide that Math and Physics prepare one to learn Troah. Both Rabbenu Bachya and the Gra say that if one lacks knowledge of secular fields he will be lacking 100 times in Torah. Rav Kook explained that a person who lacks secular knowledge will not be able to explain Torah to people.
Ubiquitin, the Chazon Ish died at the beginning 5714. That is definitely two generations.
Joseph, the Netziv closed the yeshiva because the government, at the instigation of the Maskilim’ wanted to eevntually eliminate Torah learning altogether. On the other hand, talmidim in Pressburg took the external exams for the equivalent of a HS academic diploma (in NYS the Regents, in Israel the bagrut) and received draft deferments as theological students. This eventually turned out to be good for the Orthodox in Hungary as their rav, Rav Koppel Weiss, spoke to Franz Yosef in his native German whereas the head of the Neolog spoke in literary Hungarian, which is an extremely difficult language that gave the emperor fits. BTW, many American yeshivot as well as yeshivot for English speakers in Israel offer bachelors’ degrees in Talmudic Literature in conjunction with colleges. This enables the talmidim to go on for JDs or MBAs after earning high enough frades on the LSAT/GRE.
Ubiquitin, you are over sixty years behind the times. The Chazon Ish said that universal life-long learning was a necessity for two generations to rebuild the Torah world after the Holocaust. Today the Chareidi sector has grown and there is no one to support them. The generation that worked is gone, American donors are still reeling from the financial crisis and working Israeli are sick of supporting them (besides, every time a new budget is adopted it is less than the previous in order to keep the private sector, which is Israel’s future, growing). Add to that shelom bayit problems due to women who work and in many cases earn decent salaries in the general work market. Add to that boys who are going OTD because they simply are not cut out to learn all day.
In fact, more and more Chareidim are enlisting in the IDF, getting degrees and regular jobs because the pressure is too great – and turning to the police to protect them from the extremist hooligans. IMHO, the rabbanim are priavtely acquiescing while publicly opposing to protect themselves (even Rav Elaishiv was stoned when he reached an agreement with the government on moving graves).