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Where is there hatred and if there is, why is it baseless? If i were to have ill feelings towards our misguided brethren, would they be without cause? I just gave a long list of reasons why it’s wrong and against the Torah. Hating someone for going against Hashem isn’t baseless.
Just as an aside, neither rav pam nor rav miller went to mixed colleges; that’s just not true. Rav miller went to YU, which isn’t mixed. Rav Miller did go to public school beforehand, because there were no yeshivos.
Chaim berlin didn’t “send” talmidim to college(with some exceptions) they mostly allowed it; same with torah vodaas. Mir clamped down hard on college when rav shmuel became rosh yeshiva.
Nowadays yeshivos only allow touro/other “Jewish” colleges.
Ujm, I will admit that there’s a difference between an adult being in a mixed environment where socializing is avoidable; much like many workplaces. many good jews went to Brooklyn college and held their nose; they came for what they needed and left. High school is a different story; almost nobody who went is saved from sin. It’s the formative years when hormones are raging and socializing is a huge part of the school life.
Avi, it was a typo, i fixed it.
I don’t believe the story about the brisker rov and chazon ish. Where did you see it/hear it from? Briskers keep a very clear log of stories; if such a thing happened, i would have heard it (the other half of my rebbeim are briskers). Not only do they record stories meticulously, my rosh yeshiva says that rav berel, when saying a story, would use the same exact words with the same exact inflection every single time. If one time he used a different word, the talmidim would discuss it!
You left out other dinim which support the mitzvah of yishuv EY, including a spouse being able to force the other to move there. Rav Moshes peshara is said in many achronim to answer these contradictions. Worth noting that some rishonim don’t hold of these dinim(or many of them), there’s tosfos, rabbeinu chananel, etc.
The megilas esther writes that the rambam didn’t hold it’s a chiyuv. Assur latzeis is a gemara. Different din altogether; it’s not an obligation to go and live there, but if you’re there, you’re not allowed to leave, because it’s disrespecting the opportunity Hashem gave to you too be mekayam mitzvos and be in the paltrin shel melech. Or because of Rav Moshes pshat. Either way achronim assume that the rambam held it’s not a chiyuv.
Avi, ever see the megilas ester on that rambam? He says that the rambam doesn’t count it because of the 3 oaths. He didn’t forget anything.
The ramban quotes the oaths in maamar al hageulah, so how can he say that it’s a chiyuv to live in EY? the achronim say that his chiyuv of yishuv EY is on the yochid, not the rabim, because for a rabim it would be “kachomah”
So according to the rambam we’re in a time when, much like the meraglim, we’re not supposed to take the land. Zionists are very similar to meraglim in the opposite sense; the meraglim believed in kochi veotzem yadi and thought that they were too weak. The zionists believe in kochi veotzem yadi and think that they’re strong; just different sides of the same cheit.
Ujm, I spent the best summers of my life in camp Ohr Shraga
Not mixed college, mixed high school**
Ujm, thank you; i also wasn’t active here for a while because of other commitments, and i didn’t have anything to contribute to most of what was being discussed either
“My quote about Rav Henkin’s view of Rav Goren was said explicitly by Rav Henkin’s grandson. ”
Thank you for being honest and admitting that it was from him. Yehudah hertzl twisted his grandfather’s psak about women saying kaddish, for instance. He also lied about rav henkin saying that hallel on 5 iyyar has a legitimate basis; in kisvei rav henkin, he writes that the state is a horrible violation of the 3 oaths! He also clearly misled gedolim into giving haskamos for his book, selectively showing them the teshuvos where he talks like a real rabbi and leaving out the mixed dancing, women wearing talleisim, etc..
Do you think Rav henkin approved of his son sending his grandson to a mixed college? That part of the family went off of his derech, clearly.
As for the story of being thrown out of his house, i heard it from rav yisroel reisman, rav belsky, and rav leibel katz. I also heard it from a talmid of rav dovid, aside from it being very publicized.
Is there a difference in BTL ‘s? Credits are transferred from mir, chaim Berlin, all the same. Law schools accept it instead of a bachelor’s too. You can also work for title 1 with it.
I’m starting to remember why i stopped writing thought-out, detailed replies. People don’t read them.
I should have been more medakdek; he didn’t use the word “holy”, rather he praised their zeal, spoke about them poetically, and said not to separate ourselves from them, to be exact.
And around and around we go .
Lashon kodesh isn’t ivrit, and even if they were the same, leshitas ha, Jews didn’t speak lashon kodesh either, as ujm cited
right; I know lashon kodesh fluently and I barely understand israeli newspapers. They redid the language, and before it, nobody spoke lashon kodesh in eretz yisroel. They didn’t. Some did when they would wear tefilin. In times of chazal nobody, even in EY, spoke lashon kodesh; they spoke aramaic.
My rosh yeshiva said that goren was a case of two opposing forces inside a person. He said that he learned a lot mitzad echad, but mitzad sheni, had distorted fantasies, would go around blowing shofros, and simply was a victim of the yatzer hora for zionism in a pretty bad way.
There are some rabbis, I’d rather not say their names for their kovod, who fell prey to zionism on different levels, and for them gedolim say not to talk about them unecessarily…for instance, there’s one rov who was 99% frum, but wrote some rabbi kook-ian nonsense about frei jews being great and holy etc.., but this is not in his main, published seforim. Rav Moshe shternbuch considers him a rebbe, even though he’s one of the most staunch anti-zionists of our time. He understands peoples’ frailties.
Another gadol who I spoke to about this rov was rav yitzchok sheiner, because his name appears in the haskomos of the people who put out the sefer containing the aforementioned nonsense. My friends and I got up the courage to simply knock on his door and try to invite ourselves to eat by him on shabbos. He was already beginning to lose his memory at the time, but his learning was on his fingertips. He remembered every word in shas, but couldn’t remember the name of rabbi kook when talking about how the unnamed rov had some ideas that were similar to his. Rav Scheiner told us that he was an ish kadosh, who had a very hard life. He ended up in university, divorced, and was in the holocaust, during which time he had a mental breakdown. Talmidei chachamim bleed, they are human, and rav scheiner’s open and frank descriptions of how good people can be imperfect made a very big impression on me. I think previously, in my mind, if someone erred, he was “upgefreight”, a nobody, not worthy of any kovod.
The reason why I differentiate between people like goren, rabbi kook, and the unnamed rov in the story, is in scope. One gadol said that rabbi kook’s punishment in shomayim will be that they will tell him “kook! Kook! (meaning, “Look” in english), look at what you’ve done; it will pain him to know how much spiritual suffering his methods and ideas have caused klal yisroel. Goren’s damage is already mentioned above in this thread.
The unnamed rov, however, was a victim of circumstance who, on the contrary, was a net positive. He was respected by both the yeshivos and the religious zionists, and definitely improved the standards of halacha that would otherwise be dominated by the gorens and the maimons of the time. while rabbi kook had mostly normative halachik opinions too, this was eclipsed by the hashkafic damage he caused.
The only truly sad part of the unnamed rov’s legacy is that modern morons use his teshuva supporting a mixed kiruv organization(emphasis on kiruv) as some sort of heter to have co-ed schools; much like they abuse the aruch hashulchan’s heter to say shema in front of uncovered hair as some twisted heter for women not to cover their hair.
Jews only started speaking hebrew after world war 1, more or less. It’s not “palestinian narrative”, it’s just facts. And it’s also facts that Jews drove out some arab villages, and bought up some land. Palestinians say that the israelis stole ALL the land, and israelis say that they took ALL of the land peacefully – neither are true. It was both.
The few Jews who lived in eretz yisroel over the years did not speak hebrew, since it wasn’t invented yet. As I said, they spoke either yiddish, arabic, or perhaps ladino/judeo-persian/ etc..
But the majority (by a huge margin) of people living in EY during the ottoman empire were arabs who spoke arabic. Parts of EY were unpopulated or sparsely populated, but they still spoke arabic. When the Israelis took over, large swaths of people still spoke and continue to speak arabic. Being accommodating to them isn’t a problem.
I shouldn’t say Israelis say that they took all of the land peacefully; the academics and most of the country admit to their barbarism, in places like deir yassin. It’s only the far-right who engage in historic revisionism and try to hide any and all wrongdoing by the settlers and early israeli army.
It’s a shame that frum people buy into this garbage. It’s no different than the far-right in america who deny america’s barbarism towards native americans (to be fair, the native americans were even more barbaric, but two wrongs don’t make a right), or the far-right in europe which wish to erase blame for the holocaust, or in Japan where they try to hide their oppression of the chinese and manchurians before and during WW2.
to those infatuated with zionist narratives, there’s no kibbush haaretz during galus. We are obliged in the gemara by oath to not retake the land or fight the goyim. it’s an open gemara that can’t just be explained away with fanciful novelties of “they broke their oath(who? the arabs? what did they do to us?)” or “thats not halacha, it’s just the…will of Hashem expressed in the gemara”
What the gerrer rebbe did was that he minimized the sins of another Jew, who was going to travel anyway. Also, giving directions isn’t directly encouraging him to sin, since you could walk instead of drive.
you cant overturn halachos in gemara and shu”a of “misayaeh lidei ovrei aveirah”, helping somoene sin when it’s not a deoraysoh of lifnei iver, just because of a story from the gerrer rebbe; rather it’s the story that needs to be understood.
Also, in the langner case… let’s call a spade a spade. This was deliberately to show that the religious zionist rabbis will bend halacha as necessary for the sake of the state. It was to show that their loyalty to the secular shmad state overrides their fidelity to Hashem. It was to make a statement that no matter what the state does, the rabbis will find some way to help it and support it.
It showed that r”l, the Torah is subordinate to the whims of the murderers in the government, the enemies of Hashem, the kofrim in Torah and its giver, the uprooters of all that is holy.
The thing about tamei in eretz yisroel has limits. The Torah mentions the many sins of the canaanim and says not to let them stay because “pen yachtiu oscha” , lest they make you sin. Ironically, the chances of zionists influencing jews to sin is FAR greater, as we can see with our eyes, than Arabs…the satmar rov makes a similar point in vayoel moshe. But in any case, the Torah doesn’t mince words when it comes to securing our spiritual safety. Talking about the evils of the zionists helps strengthen us not to be influenced by them. It’s why the fabric-wearing crowd watches movies and hangs out with girls, and the charedim(and admittedly, chardal) do not. They understand separation,and that sins in eretz yisroel are worse than anywhere else.
Speak to any talmidim of rav Moshe (half of my rebbeim were) this story is very well known. Rav Moshe didn’t want the public to perceive that he was accepting of goren at all; he said that his psakim are invalid and that he has no authority in halacha. This was unusual for rav moshe, but much like who he was named after, rav Moshe knew when to be “vayigba libo bedarchei Hashem”. As for rabbi soloveitchik supporting goren in the langer case; please provide a source for that. I’m not even going to ask about rav henkin, because the way you know it is probably from his feminist, intergender mingling grandson yehudah hertzl, who spread numerous lies about his illustrious grandfather.
The land is meant to be a to dlr mitzvos, not an identity. It’s a mitzvah like anything else; shofar, tefilin
Canada’s a great example; just like in eretz yisroel, the Arabic language was and is spoken by the people who were there before the chalutzim and other jews came in. If anything, hebrew’s Canadian counterpart is English; people started speaking it because of an outsiders influence and power. The arabs lived there before the state; the land was both purchased, and taken by force, but the people who lived there before the state spoke Arabic. The jews who were in yerushalayim spoke yiddish if they were ashkenazim, and the sefardim probably spoke arabic or (less likely) ladino. Nobody spoke hebrew, because its demon spawn hadn’t happened yet.
They only rose up because of religious persecution; they weren’t supposed to make a government, and their reign ended bitterly because of it, says the ramban. That’s because only bnei dovid are supposed to be kings; yo yaser shevet meyehudah.
Actually, their downfall is a prime lesson against zionism. They enlisted the help of the romans, and were at the end, assimilated and hellenized – the very thing they were fighting against. No longer was the Torah the only thing that mattered; much like religious zionists, who believe in the value of things outside torah, like land, ownership, conquest, and how we look in the eyes of the goyim.
It’s definitely not derech eretz to help people do aveiros, or show any kind of acknowledgement or tacit approval of forbidden actions; these are open halachos.
And if it gives the impression of two states, and makes the arabs less angry, what’s so bad?
Also, there are countries where everything is in two languages, notably Canada
it honestly pains me that a ben avrohom yitzchok and yaakov could even think of condoning the blatant murder of people. not to mention the horrific chillul Hashem; that people think that torah jews are murderers.
of course, if the halacha of kanoim pogim would apply, there would be no chilul Hashem, because halacha determines what is and what is not a chilul Hashem. I’m not coming from “what will the frei/goyim think”
ben; there was a time when the majority of rabbis and laymen were supportive of israel in the sense that they viewed it as hatzalah for jews after the holocaust. the role of the zionist enterprise during the holocaust, and their american cohorts, was and is still pretty unknown. They didn’t believe in zionist ideology; they didn’t believe that a land, culture, language make us into klal yisroel. they believed that the torah makes us a nation. they had political and practical reasons for supporting the state; we’re not in a position to judge, but the gedolei gedolim, i.e. the brisker rov, chazon ish, saw right through the veil and knew not to support it.
also, the chashmonaim lived in a time when there could be hasra’ah, and people were afraid in general of beis din. beis din had the capacity to punish, and the torah does not limit that capacity fully, allowing horaas shaah. at that time people were also more knowledgeable and had more awareness of torah. In our time, the chazon ish says that people do not have that, and are regarded as tinokos shenishbu. even those who argued with the chazon ish may agree in our time, because of the absolute horrors of our society. On the other hand, there’s a chance the chazon ish would agree with his dissenters now, because torah is more commonplace and people see frumkeit more than in his time. Who knows? Either way, people educated in the israeli public school system are taught mother’s milk that LGBT are kodesh kedoshim; it’s hard to blame them fully….especially to the point where we’d consider them so liable that we can apply the non-existant law of kanoim pogin to them.
donald, those times required a beis din smuchim. The chashmonaim were such a beis din (we have lists of things, including, as it happens to be, boel aramis derech znus). One cannot declare horaas shaah on their own; the operative term here is “horaah” – ruling. One needs to be capable of ruling, which in our time, we do not have.
Goren was, as far as I know, the only person who rav moshe ever threw out of his house, during the mamzerim issue.
Goren also allowed essentially conservative conversions, much like eliezer melamed(melamed quotes goren…aveirah goreres aveirah), for the good of the “nation”. His qualifier was that they have to be like traditional israelis; because that’s religious zionism’s view of a Jew…an Israeli who should keep the whole torah, but if he doesn’t, he’s still jewish; you can join the “nation” by having an israeli passport and a conversion that obligates you to not eat pig, have a seder on passover and fast on yom kippur.
to secular zionists, the one defining trait of a jew is that he is israeli or supportive of it, and from the avos, even by patrilineal descent. For religious zionists, a Jew is that too, but he also needs to have some religion (but not very much) mixed in. For torah jews, all you need is torah to be a jew; and the torah has dinim about who a jew is, from the mother, etc…, or a convert who joins the torah community by embracing the entire torah, not just what traditional frei people do.
if anyone needs evidence of how zionist ideology affects psak halacha, look no further.
I saw it in a teshuva he wrote; Google כפירה בעם ישראל לענייני גיור שלמה גורן, should be the first result – it’s mentioned in an article called “conversion in religious zionism” (written in Hebrew), by someone named rabbi yitzchok rones.
Kanoim pogim bo is a special halacha regarding bo’el aramis in public, stealing kli shareis, and cursing…. Hashem in the name of avodah zara (mishnah Sanhedrin 9:6) It doesn’t apply to other aveiros, including mishkav zachor, much less the support thereof.
Any other aveirah, even worse aveiros than bo’el aramis(which if done without living together is only derabonon, as it happens to be) require due process and one is not allowed to kill the violators of them.
Toeva parades need a strong, vocal opposition, but what schlisel did was murder. He was a murderer who, if taken to beis din, would have been put to death.
It would be murder if he killed a child molester, murderer (after he killed, since before it would be a rodef case), mechalel shabbos, or anything else. If you see someone do a capital offense and kill him, it’s you who is the murderer. We have laws. We are obliged to keep those laws, even when we want to protest chilul Hashem.
As to whether kanoim pogin bo applies today, see rema CM 425:4, which says that you need to warn the sinner first. Here, no warning was given.
Kanoim pogim bo also has a lot of limitations. It has to be during the aveirah itself. It also needs to be done in front of 10 jews
Also, if the sinner kills the kanoi in self defense, the sinner is not considered a murderer, because the kanoi has a din of a rodef(Sanhedrin 82a)
Yerushalmi Sanhedrin 9:7 is also critical of kanoim pogim bo in general and says that chachamim wanted to put pinchos in nidui if not for the fact that Hashem was maskim to him.
The divide in the issue of nationalism is so deep that rav elchonon and rav chaim brisker call it avodah zara….and shlomo goren says that one cannoy convert to “judaism” if they do not believe in it, if they want to hold on to their nationality, i.e. identify as American, Brazilian..they might like their culture and food, and language, and they only want to be a jew in terms of keeping the torah and their neshoma – that’s not a jew, according to goren…but a russian goy who doesn’t want to keep all the mitzvos but serves in that blasted army and celebrates 5 iyyar… that’s a jew.
Pathetic.
AAQ, and if he took wine (that was kosher) from an Arab farmer, would that mean he approves of him?
I didn’t even address the neturei karta issues. Neturei karta are mainly litvishe Yerushalmis. The satmar rov was vocally opposed to even the legitimate, original NK started by rav amram blau. The current incarnations are splintered, with the main, normal, non-arafat hugging group still in meah shearim. Either way, almost none of them, the normal and the crazies, are talmidim of the divrei yoel zt”l.
Zushy, the satmar rov was far from a daas yochid in not requiring yishuv eretz yisroel. Learn vayoel Moshe; 1/3 of the sefer is source after source that holds that there is no obligation. Those include rabbeinu chananel, one opinion in tosfos, and the rambam as explained by the megilas Esther. The rivash holds that the obligation isn’t so much to live there, but to buy land from goyim. The ramban holds that there is a chiyuv. It’s a machlokes rishonim. Achronim say that it’s a mitzvah if you’re able to do so relatively easily. Rav chaim kanievsky writes that too. Rav yaakov used to say it’s easier to raise kids in America.
Some gedolim were moser nefesh to go to eretz yisroel; many weren’t.
Ujm, yiddish is growing in America, but in eretz yisroel, most charedim, including chasidim, speak Hebrew, and it’s a minority who speak yiddish. The way things are growing, both yiddish and lehavdil ivrit are set to be the most common languages of frum jews. The chazon ish said that speaking hebrew is a fight that we need to concede to, since it’s already lost, and because the sefardim would be lost forever if we spoke different languages. That last part no longer applies, since they have their own infrastructure now…should there be a resurgence in going back yo yiddish in bnei brak etc? Not a bad idea, but there are also bigger nisyonos and things to worry about.
Minimum halacha has never been kept in Israel. The best we’ve gotten is the they allow us, usually, to keep halacha, but they’d love it if we didn’t. Shabbos isn’t kept nationally; just businesses are closed. Highways are open, as are things the government considers essential. Movies are open, too. Ben gurion told the chazon ish that his idea of oneg shabbos was pruning his garden, so how can you dictate “your” view, etc…sports games are played pn shabbos in stadiums.
The army is mostly mixed. Toe’va people run proudly through the streets of yerushalayim. Schools don’t teach anything. The prime minister misquoted shema, saying hashem emet or something.
They teach kids that the nation started in israel,and may or may not have been slaves in egypt, krias yam suf, matan torah, are all not necessarily true cv”s. David and golias? 100% true. Because it shows jewish might or whatever.
The state was created to shmad jews. Rav chaim brisker said people think that the zionists want a state, and in order to have one you can’t be frum… it’s the opposite, they want a state in order to not be frum!
Rav moshe makes no mention of him being a tzadik, he says he’s the grandson of his beloved friend, he says that he doesn’t give haskamos on dinim(kdarko, this was not unusual) but that from what he saw(emphasis, he says he saw some pieces) definitely didn’t show him the parts i mentioned, or the one ujm mentioned about mixed dancing, which is there on teshuva 37, volume 1..if he showed rav moshe the part where he says women can wear talisim, something rav Moshe says is heresy, do you think he would have had the haskama? Uh, no. Henkin knew what to show to who, and capitalized on his yichus(which all of the haskamos mention). He may have been a grandson, but his father put him in the co ed Yeshiva of Flatbush!
Many times the family of gedolim have more pull and are assumed to be good. It’s usually true, but has pitfalls. Though not nearly as bad as henkin, there’s no way the Torah temimah would have become popular if not for his father and uncle.
Rav waldenburg, rav ovadia, and rav klein all said they have not seen the whole sefer. This was deliberate.
You misrsead rav kleins word of “oso tzadik”, he didn’t say “bnei bonim from the tzadik..” meaning henkin, rather he’s pl making a play on words, “I’ve seen children of children to that tzadik…meaning he saw the grandchildren of rav eliyahu henkin, hertzls grandfather.
Y1 – hertzl henkin’s bnei banim doesn’t have the haskama of the gedolim you mentioned; he did have a correspondence with rav menasheh klein in halacha, but not about his feminist issues. How do i know he’s a feminist, and what opinions of his are feminist?
From the horrid edah website:
he rules that a woman may wear tsitsit, and completely disregards the issue of her motivation (SBB II:3). Rejecting arguments to forbid women’s prayer groups on the basis of the prohibition of be-huqoteihem (following the ways of non-Jews; here, following a feminist ideology), he states that the Torah only prohibits non-Jewish actions, not motivations or movements (SBB II:10).He likewise allowed women to wear tzitzis, regardless of their motivation.
Rav Moshe writes clearly that feminism is apikorsus.
(Sbb is bnei banim.)
when writing to defend the intermingling of the sexes that occurs in the Modern Orthodox community..(, his English book, equality lost, page 88)
Henkin wrote in 2001 that giving women alios is something that shouldn’t be considered “for the foreseeable future.” Admitting that if done at that time, such a shul would not remain Orthodox, but not ruling it out.
The infamous yoatsot program was his doing. He trained women to supposedly write “teshuvos”
He spoke at a conference on “Orthodox” feminism a few years ago, welcoming women’s Torah study to be equivalent to men’s.
Rav chaim held of moving to eretz yisroel if one can do it easily. He never sanctioned making settlements. He also said in a letter that I’ve seen firsthand that the Israeli government is not a government regarding Dina d’malchusa. One need not be concerned with what it says.
Zionists like to say that only the satmar rov was against zionism. What shall we do with…
Rav hirsch
Rav chaim brisker
Brisker rov
Rav elchonon
All lubavitcher rebbes before the last
Minchas elazar
Rav boruch ber
Rav chaim ozer
Rav aharon kotler
The rogotchover
Chazon ishOff the top of my head. They spoke about it a lot, often
You have to be careful; permitted to say brachos, etc, but it’s never permitted to listen to it for enjoyment
Even if this was one of rabbi twerskys small books, he did what i said he did. Was that an overarching theme in his other books? Well, if syag would say no, it’s not, and XYZ was his mahalach, then we wouldn’t have to get personal and have a squabble over it. Even if it’s a small part of his methods, how am i not justified in saying that that particular method is not mesorah-based and i believe it to be an error?
I didn’t rely on second hand info, or “what people say”, or whatnot. I read something of his which i disagree with. So sue me.
If these books have helped you in your personal life, then like i said, it’s a net positive. My opinions shouldn’t matter to you. I’m not saying it’s assur to do what he says, or that it’s apikorsus, even if you were to take my opinion to heart. If it works, it works. Being pragmatic in mussar has a mesorah too.
There’s a lot to go through, and my time is strapped. One thing that stands out is that you believe the accounts of hertzl henkin, aho is a confirmed feminist rabbi who has tried for years, unsuccessfully, to allow the mixing of genders that is rampant in the fabric-wearing community. Do we have any yeshiva-world people saying these things? Not hertzl henkin, not shabtai, etc…the answer is no.
Where in rav tuchathinsky’s sefer is it? I know someone who is into these sort of things; rabbi eliyahu kitov has a pro-independenxe day piece in the English “the book of our heritage” which is missing from the original sefer toda’ah. that’s because it’s fake.
I’ll come back later or tomorrow with a full rebuttal.
Also, bear in mind that many rabbonim were favorable to the state on some level (including the ponevezher rov, according to rav yosef savitsky) because they saw it as hatzolah, where jews can live after the war. He would have been just as happy if America accepted all the Holocaust survivors, and would have made a celebration on that day, probably would have said halel too. His mixed response (not saying tachanun, and not saying halel) was due to the institutionalized apikorsus, chilul Hashem, and threats to Torah that the state posed(and poses).
The biggest lies about gedolim and zionism are that the chazon ish and brisker rov somehow had favorable views of the state. Any and all talmidim of theirs represent the biggest anti zionists around. It’s almost as ridiculous as the claim (which I’ve seen zionists make) that the satmar rov wasn’t against the state, and that only his chasidim were!
There are zero charedi gedolim on record as being pro nationalism, pro settlement, or anything remotely related to those things.
As for agudah signing the declaration; that has a big backstory, detailed in “the empty wagon”. It was not particularly wrong considering the deal reb itche meir levine had with the zionists. In exchange for “hatzolah purta”, r” levine promised not to oppose the state at the UN in his speech, because that would make the jews loom splintered and weaken the cause of the state. That could have put jewish lives in danger, because zionists were known to kill those who stood in their way (rabbi de’han, and fellow zionists on the altalina ship, for instance).
Rav boruch ber (in “harav hadomeh lemalaach”) stood up for zionists at first in order to save his life, since rav chaim told him that they (at that time!) were suspected of murder, but then he sat down when he remembered that rav chaim said that zionism is avodah zara, which is yehereg velo yaavor.
Where is the statement from rav tichichinsky? I don’t buy it. Please provide a primary source.
None of the gedolim you quoted supported the ideals of zionism, pr the angering of the nations/arabs. None whatsoever supported settlements either.
Almost your entire list is second, third hand information. Who wrote the book you’re citing, and what were his sources?
Just for one example, no talmidim of rav Moshe say he viewed the state positively. Many have told me that he didn’t address it because he needed his psakim to be accepted by everyone, and most Jews at the time were pro zionist.
Rav henkin wrote in his seforim that the state violated the 3 shavuos. He was very strong in his opposition. How would he then say that saying halel is valid? We don’t praise Hashem for a violation of his will.
Shabtai rappaport married a granddaughter of rav Moshe. He is not a grandson himself. He married a tendler(surprised?), teaches at bar ilan, and has a name that the Torah community accepted on itself not to use since shabsai tzvi. Shabti/shabsi took its place. His testimony is no different than those who say that rav Moshe had a seudah on 5 iyyar… When it was just his lunch(heard from a talmid)
Syag, I just asked for a clear example as to how I’m wrong. Very simple; i saw him use 12 steps in mussar, and i disagree. Please show me why I’m mistaken. Instead im just being told i don’t understand it.
Rav miller wrote seforim and was a gadol batorah; you can follow whichever opinions you want, but his opinion is valid and saying you disagree is arrogant, whether you understand his opinions or not.
But let’s assume for a second that they would be on the same level – if someone said something in the name of rav miller (he is actually misquoted a lot and the pamphlets are not perfect), i would point it out by showing why it was mistaken. I wouldn’t just say that i know better because I’ve learned all of his seforim since i was a teenager. I’ve done that before; just get me the source and I’ll gladly accept it. I have no motivation to think of rabbi twersky as wrong, nor do i have motivation to think he’s right.
But take a look at the responses I’m getting, besides what you’re saying – everyone’s defending his psychology (besides aaq, who’s saying that you can mix Torah and psychology, and again quoted his probably fanatical and messianic rabbi who claimed that the rambam could learn torah from Aristotle), and totally missing my point.
There are a high percentage of Israeli citizens who are Arabs. Israel was founded in a land where people spoke Arabic. It makes perfect sense to accommodate them.
I also don’t like the American nationalistic, xenophobic attitude of “this is America! Learn English you foreigner!” It’s one of the things that conservative goyim are mistaken about. It’s not a torah idea; we are told to love foreigners if they are keeping our beliefs and ideals, whether they are a ger toshav or especially if they’re a ger tzedek.
Asserting Jewish dominance just leads to Jews dying from terrorist attacks.
Also, one million sefardi refugees who migrated to Israel spoke Arabic.