AviraDeArah

Reb E, I don’t agree with “compared to other sites,” idea, because something wrong doesn’t become right just because other people do it worse, especially when it’s not a necessary activity. The alternative would be not to have any such site, but to refer those wbo would do the worse one to to not-as-bad one.

I don’t think there’s kiruv daas when there’s no possibility of communicating personally, or knowing the other person’s identity. Even the gemaras case of m’achurei hageder is different because the man knew which woman it was.

Also most don’t shmooze about personal things. Not the ideal, but honestly I’m here because i like writing and expressing the perspective of the yeshiva world, which is lacking here and online in general.

Ujm, i haven’t had much free time lately.

Rabbi twersky was close (and related) to many gedolei torah. His rebbeim encouraged him to go into psychiatry, and for good reason – he saved many lives and was a profoundly good influence on people.

As far as i know, he did not submit all of his opinions and writings to daas Torah. He wrote in his sefer on chumash that he’s not a daas torah, and that one can only reach that level of torah by learning day and night exclusively, without being involved in other things. He would not shy away from legitimate criticism.

I’m not saying anything revolutionary. He has a chiddush in how to approach the yatzer hora which is not the way baalei mussar and chasidus teach. He’s not saying apikorsus or anything horribly bad. It’s just a mistake that came from his line of work. and if people do less aveiros, or work on their middos from it… it’s a net positive But it’s not the mesorah.

A gartel is necessary for davening according to some poskim, and in one reading of the magen avrohom. Some litvishe, including rav boruch ber, grew up with gartels. He switched to putting it under his jacket in deference to his rebbe rav chaim brisker, who did not wear one at all.

when we see modern people wanting to be more outwardly religious looking, that is a complicated issue. Is it part of an upward trajectory? Are they in fact becoming more frum? Or is it just superficial…that’s something an individual modern person’s rebbe would have to talk with them about.

I took on wearing a gartel after asking one of my rebbeim; he said to ask my father if he’s makpid, which he was not, but that was the first thing he asked me to do, before even getting into my motivations.

streimels were most definitely not for weather protection. They were a badge of honor after the goyim made us wear funny hats to mock us. Rav shach says (merosh amanah) that wearing long was a mesorah which we dropped; the “pick your battles” type of thing, along with shaving. We’re not perfect, and you can’t make everything a red line. Chasidim did, in fact, make the chitzonius a red line, and they are successful in their derech.

Rav Nachman from Breslov also writes as an example of how tzadikim can err, that there were Italian mekubalim who held that in chutz la’aretz, one should not have a beard, because of its kedushah. Rav Nachman writes that the world makes two mistakes about tzadikim; that they can’t make a mistake, and that if they do, that they’re not tzadikim.

Obviously it’s not our place to judge who made mistakes, but the gedolim tell us things like the above examples, which we are supposed to listen to. It’s extremely rare and not something that helps our emunah to dwell on, because the entire Torah is based on mesorah; we have emunah shlaima that the mesorah is authentic and that people who learned torah lishma were guided min hashomayim to transmit the truth to us. There are these couple of exceptions, but the exception proves the rule. 99.9% of the time we say it’s a machlokes and move on without saying one is right or wrong.

Syag; I believe I’ve made it clear in the past that if someone shows me sources that prove me wrong, I yield. The only time I wouldn’t is on things that I have been mekabel directly from my rebbeim as a mesorah; including zionism.

Syag, you could explain what rabbi twerskys opinions were, instead of just saying that i don’t know what I’m talking about. Maybe you’re right, but do you really think I’ll listen by just being told that what i said isn’t true? Maybe quote him or at least say what you heard from him if you don’t want to look up what he wrote.

I don’t need to be someone’s superior in mussar to identify mussar ideas and where something deviates from the mesorah. Rabbi twersky was very knowledgeable in psychology, but that doesn’t mean he was incapable of making an error in hashkofa. Bigger people than him have made bigger mistakes in hashkofa (ralbag, for instance) and we don’t discount them as individuals.

Also should mention that im not dismissing rabbi twerskys opinion; i feel it was a pious error that an eved Hashem made based on his experiences with addicted individuals. He’s far more of an eved Hashem and baal middos than i am, and I’m sure his intentions were pure as can be.

Here’s another chidush – if you don’t want machlokes, don’t bring up controversial topics. The back and forth began when some were accused of omitting the faculty of yeshiva university. Then reasons were given as to why the yeshiva world does not consider the school to be a yeshiva, etc..

While vital for addicts and very powerful, AA’s philosophy isn’t normative judaism and representative of milchemes hayetzer. From what I’ve seen, addicts are taught that they’re not fighting the yatzer hora anymore, but are fighting a disease in their minds which can be cured by submitting to a higher power.

Christian theology is replete with “we’re all sinners” and that the only way to salvation is through their savior, not through keeping the mitzvos. This is the essence of Pauline doctrine; gone is the covenant of “acts” and now is the covenant of “by your faith, be it”.

So they learned in church that you’re hopeless, up for eternal damnation and unable to reach God on your own without their mamzer. They applied it to their situation and in that one instance, where someone is addicted, the idea of hopelessness and submission works. And for this condition it works wonders.

Judaism says that you have bechirah, and are held to task for your decisions. “It is not a distant matter for you”, the Torah is reachable, and is not, as christians say, unattainable and too high a standard to demand of people (they actually say that the whole teason for the torah is to show israel that they couldn’t do it and need faith alone…afra lepumayhu)

In fighting the yatzer hora, we don’t just give it all up to Hashem. We fight. And we fight like our life depends on it… because it does. Part of that fight is davening, and there’s a guarantee that Hashem will help. Yes,the YH is stronger than a person, but do not mistake heavenly aid with submission and feeling helpless. If you don’t feel helpless about going to work, you shouldn’t feel helpless about fighting a regular YH.

Ujm; i don’t have a set store anymore; i just chop a rein whenever i see a sale for something of decent material under 20

I’m quite disappointed that Burlington stopped carrying (as far as i can tell) white shirts. I found very good quality shirts there for 10 each, sometimes a little more or less.

What does individual aveiros have to do with open chilul Hashem? Any yeshivoa would close down rather than accommodate such a chilul Hashem – a thousand times worse than the reason for the closing of the volozhin Yeshiva. Sometimes you need to close. YU wouldn’t close, because it doesn’t believe in the sanctity of its institution.

From where do you derive that if not for YU there wouldn’t be a cope program in agudah? Most litvishe boys went to college, but they went to Brooklyn college at night after yeshivah and held their nose. No one needed YU

Hirschian? Is that why rav hirsch’s community in Washington heights was the most vocal opponent of YU in the country? Give me a break. Rav hirsch wrote about secular studies being the hand maids of Torah while Norman lamm said that they’re basically equal.

Zushy, rav matisyohu, he should have a refuah shlaima, is a Mashgiach, and a big person, but to my knowledge was never a rosh yeshiva.

Lakewood roshei Yeshiva i assumed were self understood.

Reb E: good point. Rav Frankel of vayalipol, rav Ephraim wachsman, and rav Shmuel dishon come to mind, but I’m not very familiar.

common, getting rejected because you’re frum by goyim is one thing – that is to be expected, and is part of galus.

The point here is that this shows how non-jewish and in fact anti-Jewish average Israeli culture is. While marketed as a safe place for Jews, the ones who actually practice Judaism are derided and discriminated against.

Also, rav elimelech biderman is a rosh yeshiva?

Rav meir hershkowitz, rav reuvain feinstein, rav elya ber wachtfogel, rav elya brudny, rav yosef savitsky, rav shlomo feivel shustal, rav motel dick, rav meir stern, to name a few that come to mind.

He’s only right if the women are in a place where they don’t have reason to think men are listening. Women are not allowed to sing wherever they want and tell men not to listen, much as they cannot dress however they want and tell men not to look.

You graduated from high school several decades ago; time to move on.

Ujm – i can’t find anything on the subject, but I’ll look into it

ujm – even live, if you are given a choice between having to walk down a street that has women singing, or one where they are dressed inappropriately, the choice is very clear. Not all erva is the same. The same way there’s a difference between a woman in short sleeves and one in a swimsuit, even though both are exposing erva. It’s a davar pashut.

Gadol; how in the world does “greater adherence to tzinius guidelines” have anything to do with degradation or subordination? It’s the opposite; by dressing more tznius, a woman is more dignified and less objectified, and seen as merely a vehicle for lust for men.

When feminists say they want to dress provocatively “for themselves” and champion pritzus as a means of “liberation,” what they’re saying is that “don’t objectify and sexualize us, but….look, we’re going to be super provocative, right in your face, in ways that we know are designed around men’s preferences and desires….objectification is only a problem if it’s forced upon us”

Gadol – my point is that there’s no comparison between a non-addicted, healthy man’s yatzer hora, which can be triggered by women singing and dancing, and the “ew, gross” reaction women have to men not being tznius. The two are completely different. One is “lo yinakeh midinoh shel gehinnon” if one looks at the small finger of a woman for pleasure, and the other is a nuisance like seeing dead rats on the street.

As for equating all shmiras aynayim/kedushah inyonim to addictions – so what? What does that have to do with my points in this thread? I never once brought up addiction or more extreme behaviors.

Saying “this is “normal” not like X behavior which is criminal (any aveirah is a crime against Hashem)” is reductive. You’re trivializing the nisyonos of ehrlich jews around the world and making it out to be as if it’s only a problem if it goes to a certain extreme that you arbitrarily decided. As i said, etzbah katana is enough to land a jew in gehinnom; that can’t be reduced by the contrast to *bigger” sins.

gadol – lots of things are disgusting. Dead rodents on the street are pretty gross too; it’s a shame that some people have to deal with the frustrations of seeing things that disgust them.

what does that have to do with the soul-destroying power of pritzus in the eyes of a jewish man?

ujm, it was not a pleasant chapter in yeshiva history. Rav Shach paskened that frumer yidden can join the government and take money therefrom. Previously, the frum parties (not including mizrachi, and Im not sure if shas was around yet) under the psak of the chazon ish, held that we were only allowed to be in the opposition, but not in the government itself. Rav Shach said that under Menachem Begin things were different and that the psak no longer applied. He also said that due to these changes, we were allowed to take money for yeshivos until 50% funding for a school.

Rav avrohom yehoshua was very upset at this, and said that his grandfather never would have allowed it. Even though rav shach was about 80 years old and rav avrohom yehoshua was in his 30’s, the former believed he was justified in opposing rav shach not on his own stature, but as a defender of the brisker rov.

This led to a major rift which continues to this day; briskers don’t get jobs in ponevezh.

Mentsch, are you familiar with nidunyos?