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shwarmerei,
“A person with emunah does not “need” his child to keep shabbos.”
Shabbos is not a light thing like a bookworm staying up late, so I don’t think it’s a lack of emuna, or a sign of ego for a parent to do whatever it takes to prevent its desecration. But this assumption that hitting is somehow a universal power tool of parenting is dangerously incorrect. Klugeryid may think that we can dispense Hashem’s justice like Hashem does, but we are not the Master of the universe, and it’s far more likely that we’ll engender fear and hatred, not fear and awe. And what he describes in his scenario isn’t even Hashem’s way of disciplining – otherwise we’d all be dead and the world a barren wasteland.
klugeryid,
“In the words of Conan Doyle, it may be cracking the nut with a triphammer but it gets the job done.”
Do you even know what the job is? A building under construction has scaffolding around it that needs to be removed. Sure a bulldozer will get the job done, but you’ll knock the building over in the process, and the bricks will fall down on your own head. During a carpentry project sometimes a board needs to be removed and replaced. Yes an axe will effectively remove the board, but then it can never be replaced again, and sharp splinters will be everywhere.
klugeryid,
“Really? News flash.”
Not so testy there yourself 🙂
“Some of them will never tell you what is bothering them, you need to guess and sometimes if you get it right they will tell you sometimes not.”
I think this mentality is unfortunate. Sure some children are more reticent than others, and other children will state a whole bunch of random things that are bothering them while the actual thing that is really bothering them in that moment remains hidden. Sometimes a child doesn’t even consciously know or can’t articulate what is bothering him. But to say that a child will never share with his parent what is bothering him speaks not to temperament, but a breakdown in the parent chil relationship.
“They are that way since they were old enough to shake their heads to a yes or no question.”
If a toddler cannot come to his parent and say, “hurt”, that’s a warning sign that something is wrong and should not be ignored. It’s not just a temperament issue.
“So asking is not always the answer.”
Asking is a shorthand way of saying that the first step is to try and connect with the child.
“And sometimes you may know why they don’t want to get up.
Cause they went to sleep at two o’clock so the morning. For a whole week. Cause they were reading in bed. Cause all the make nice , rewards, charts ,soft speak was not as strong as the pull of reading.”Unless you have a highly gifted preschooler who is capable of reading for hours, I’m assuming you are talking about a school aged child. In that case, I agree. Rewards and charts aren’t very motivating. That’s baby stuff.
“So back to the hypothetical child, who is constantly a challenge to get us in the morning,
Nothing has worked, does there ever come a time when you hit them?”Again, it seems that you have exhausted the coercive and transactional tactics short of hitting, and based on your mocking of the relational path I’m guessing you have not tried that. So for now I continue to dispute your “nothing has worked” assertion. And you can’t say, “oh, but in this hypothetical let’s pretend that we have tried all the relational things!” because I’m not sure that you are aware of what they are. It’s not all soft talk and la la dee da honey like you seem to think it is. So at the end of the day, it’s not that nothing is worked, it’s that everything you know to try hasn’t worked.
“Or do you continue just making charts, taking away their books which they wait till you finally go to sleep so they can take it back only causing them to go to sleep later, so HE will grow up knowing that the only negative of his behavior is mild reproach or what he considers soft punishment. And then In five years when he is 14 and never goes to Minyan ,you start running to experts for help?”
If a school aged child is waiting for the parent to fall asleep, and then steals books that they have taken and said not to take, then they CANNOT wait to get expert help until the child is 14 and skipping davening. They should be getting help right away. Those actions should definitely be discussed with a rav or family counselor.
klugeryid,
“Because my hypothetical situation was specifically asking what do you do when all else has failed.
If your way works then by all means do so but then by definition, all else HAS NOT FAILED!!! Get it?”Yes, I got it the first time, stupid as it is. You demonstrated the “all else has failed” scenario by listing a series of coercive and bribing tactics that have not worked, leading to the conclusion that it is not that all else has failed, but that you do not realize that there are other options.
“There are certain children who will not comply with anything you do.”
False. You are labeling the child as wayward, and he is dutifully and obediently living up to your expectations.
“And there are certain situation when that child may need to be forced to do certain things.”
True. Those these absolute type situations are perhaps rarer than some think.
Rare and well done.
1,
“I hardly get aliyos anyway. The only times I’ve gotten was when I bought for myself.”
“What bothers me is I get treated like a fly on the wall, but when it comes to giving money, people all of a sudden send me emails and WhatsApp.”
My shul has more than one minyan on both weekdays and Shabbos. There was one particular gabbai, who for whatever reason, did not make eye contact with me, did not respond to my greetings of good morning or good Shabbos, and it was quite rare for me to be called up for an aliya at his minyan other than an occasional gelila (let’s see if that triggers popa to post). For reasons unrelated to this, I switched to a different minyan in the same shul, and the gabbai at that minyan greets me every time I see him, and makes sure that every regular member gets called up for aliyos on a regular basis. I wonder if there were some way for you to break the ice with the gabbai at your shul, or switch minyans, it might alter how you are treated when it comes time for kibbudim.
klugeryid,
“WERE WOMEN TO DO THE THINGS THAT THE TORAH DEMANDS DIVORCE FOR WITH THE FREQUENCY THAT CHILDREN DO THE THINGS FOR WHICH DISCIPLINE IS DEMANDED FOR , THEN ABSOLUTELY DIVORCE WOULD BE RAMPANT.
is that a clear enough answer?”Quite revealing, yes. It’s why I asked you if your scenario earlier in the thread was hypothetical. When we have a child, we are being entrusted with a child of Hashem. Created in His image, and dearly beloved by Him. That child is NOT some sort of demon who desires only to break rules and must be punished, nor some sort of animal who only desires satisfaction of his wants, and must be coerced. To parent with those underlying assumptions is damaging and dangerous, and an insult to his Parent in Shomayim, CV”S. You know what the first thing to do with a child who absolutely refuses to get up for school? ASK HIM WHY HE’S NOT GETTING UP! Is that a clear enough answer? You know why you don’t know what to do with your hypothetical child other than to beat him? Because you don’t know him.
klugeryid,
“avram your second half is on topic and possibly true
your first half though completely missed the mark”Translation: You don’t want to answer either?
“i said anecdotally it was common, ive heard it from many old timers and even when i was a child parents routinely slapped their children for all sorts of things, teachers hit and sometimes paddled even in non Jewish society
i just checked my drivers license, seems i cant honestly remember 150 years back
yet that which i wrote is from my own recollection”Yes, and I am saying that the knee-jerk paddle culture with a focus solely on behavior and not what’s happening in the child’s world that you are recollecting was NOT the long term norm. If Joseph wants to bring Mishlei, I’ll bring Nach (regarding Adoniyahu): וְלֹֽא־עֲצָב֨וֹ אָבִ֚יו מִיָּמָיו֙ לֵאמֹ֔ר מַדּ֖וּעַ כָּ֣כָה עָשִֹ֑יתָ
You’ll note that it doesn’t say he wasn’t beat up enough. He was never questioned about the reasons behind his actions – a relational defect.klugeryid,
“Anecdotally speaking, corporal punishment seems to have been the standard method of discipline throughout the ages across all spectrum of Judaism.”
This again is a distortion. Something being permitted in certain circumstances is NOT the same thing as it being standard, or implored, or preferred, or whatever. I’ll ask you the same question I asked Joseph who conveniently ignored it: the Torah permits divorce, and sometimes obligates it. Are you ready to say that divorce is standard for Jews, or that the Torah implores us to divorce?
“What needs explanation is what and why has that changed.”
I think things have changed, but it wasn’t in the last 30 years. It was the last 150. Due to societal changes, parents have become more distant from their children, more tired, and more stressed. And therefore unfortunately many resort more quickly to anger and reactionary responses to children’s behaviors than in previous generations. Hence the increased calls to spare the rod. Don’t confuse 1950s America with the Torah’s ideal society. It was NOT normal or ok for parents to be so distant from their children.
Joseph,
“You should be at least as scared of his Mechallel Shabbos R”L as you are scared by that act of his.”
Who says that I am not? These are not equivalent situations. First of all, Shabbos is taught via chinuch – a child’s obligations aren’t even fully upon him until bar/bas mitzvah age, so it’s like training matches that don’t catch things on fire. And if a post bar mitzva child is mechallel Shabbos, R”L, then it’s way too late for slapping the matches out of his hand. The house is already ablaze.
“The same can be said regarding a child being mechallel Shabbos.”
No, again, see above. Shabbos is an issue of chinuch, which is a gradual process, and so Hashem built in a way to do it safely.
“A child should be as fearful of Mechallel Shabbos as he is fearful of playing with matches.”
I agree – but by the matches a parent keeps them away from the child until he is old enough to use them safely. By Shabbos our children participate from infancy. Due to that, the “fear” tactic is ineffective.
“We’re discussing older children, not two year olds.”
No, up to this point we’ve been discussing young children. Hence the running in the street and matches examples.
Why don’t you suggest limiting the parental response to playing with fire or playing on the road to that as well?”
Because a young child will not set the house on fire due to mistakes with Shabbos. And as I said above, by an older child, the damage is already done, and the goal now is a rebuild.
Joseph,
“Avram , the posek in Mishlei that I quoted falls pretty much in line with imploring. Otherwise the parent must hate his child according to Mishlei. You can nitpick the verbiage but that is a fair way to put it.”
Nah, that’s a distortion, just like you are accusing The little I know of with דרכיה דרכי נועם.
“You also didn’t respond to my responses to your long comment.”
I’ll get right on it.
“Now back to our 21 year old, please. I eagerly await y’all responses about that emancipated child who may legally purchase alcohol.”
There is no “back” to the 21 year old. This discussion was about small children, and you brought this in tangentially. But I’ll answer. One example is a case like that mother in Baltimore during the riots a few years ago who physically stopped her teenager from participating after seeing him in news footage.
So Joseph, what do you make of the fact that the Torah permits a man to divorce his wife? In some circumstances, a man is required to divorce. And a perusal of the sources reveals some pretty small reasons that can justify a divorce. Based on your logic, therefore, would you say that the Torah IMPLORES us to divorce, cv”s?
Joseph,
You have failed to demonstrate with your sources that we are IMPLORED to hit.
And, do you have a response to my latest post?
Joseph,
Where in Tanakh, Dovid HaMelech, Chazal, and the Shulchan Aruch are we IMPLORED to use corporal discipline?
Joseph,
“So you’re not in the slightest worried that providing a child with corporal discipline for playing with fire may result in negative feelings leading him to become an arsonist but you are worried that providing a child with corporal discipline for being mechallel Shabbos may result in negative feelings leading him to become a mechallel Shabbos?”
You’re like a carpenter with a toolbox that only has a hammer, so every problem looks like a nail to you. The purpose of the extreme reaction by the matches is to convey, palpably, how scared you are by the act. If a young child tries to touch a hot pot and the parent says in a singsong voice, “oh honey, let’s not touch that pot, it’s hot”, there is no sense of danger, and the child’s curiosity will push him to test the limit. But if the parent lets loose a primal scream, slaps the child’s hand away, and yells, “HOT! DON’T EVER TOUCH POTS ON THE STOVE!”, the child will associate a fearful experience with the stove. It’s then up to the parent to help the child process that experience, telling him how scary it was, and that he yelled not because he was angry, but because he was scared for the child.
Shabbos is very different. First of all, young children have no understanding of melachos or muktze, and they have to be gradually taught what to do. You wouldn’t punish a 2 year old for not knowing how to drive a car, right? Because it’s a gradual process, children already know from experience that they won’t be injured if they play with an electronic toy, draw a picture, or flip on a light. So trying to make it into a scary experience or spanking them is counterproductive. If you want to utilize a strong reaction to demonstrate the seriousness of chillul Shabbos for a child who is old enough to know, burst into tears.
The little I know,
“Translating this into the vocabulary I chose, there are times when compliance is so critical that teaching is secondary to compliance. This doesn’t teach the child safety, which still needs to be done.”
I agree with this 100%.
“Bottom line is that discipline rarely teaches. It controls. And in instances of safety risks, that is appropriate.”
I think you and I have very different definitions of “discipline”, which we’ve hashed out in another thread before.
klugeryid,
“Hypothetical”
Whew. Because it seems that the assumption in your hypothetical is that a parent child relationship is purely transactional, and that is not healthy.
klugeryid,
“We both agree, we’re just haggling over price.
So now the question is what’s worse
A child playing with matches or a child being מחלל שבת?”Nope. I agree with WinnieThePooh, but couldn’t disagree with you more.
The use of physical force in each scenario WinnieThePooh described is intended to stop the dangerous act as quickly as possible, not to provide chinuch. Smacking the hand away is the quickest way to prevent it from getting burned on the stove. Yanking the kid away from the street is intended purely for protection, and physically separating fighting siblings is to prevent injury.
klugeryid,
How old is this child, or are you writing about a hypothetical situation?
1,
“I don’t think we were put here for a 9-5 job and to commute.”
We have so much to be thankful for to live in this generation, where technology has eased so many dangers and burdens in our lives. However, I agree with you that the model of a far from home daily job that has prevailed since the Industrial Revolution is far from optimal for family life. Family farmers and shopkeepers with a downstairs storefront had way more access to their wives and children than people do today, where full time workers leave when their children are waking up, and come home close to their bedtime. I hate it, but that’s the way the world is currently set up, and we have to do the best we can with what we have.
Participant,
“why does the prez begin w/ “Madam speaker, mr. VP…..”
The VP is closer in line than speaker.
?”I think the President addressed Speaker (of the House) Pelosi first because he was in the House chamber, and then the Vice President (head of the Senate).
1,
“Do you feel you accomplish your life’s mission, at your job or business.”
I am blessed to have a job that I like to do, but no, it is not my life’s mission. It is part of my responsibilities to accomplish my life’s mission.
What if you spent that time finishing shas?”
My wife and kids would get pretty hungry, and the bank, power, and water companies wouldn’t be pleased either.
Shopping613,
“Why is it a holiday “given to the women”?”
My understanding is that Rosh Chodesh was given because the women in the midbar did not panic like the men who thought Moshe Rabbeinu had died, a time when things seemed really dark like the moon becomes dark immediately prior to Rosh Chodesh, and they refused to give over their gold. They continued to have faith that the light of Hashem’s promises would come. Due to this, Jewish women merit Rosh Chodesh, which stands at the doorway of the transition from the dark new moon to the bright full moon.
1. What does the J in Donald J Trump stand for? Jay
2. How many hours of sleep does the ADA recommend for a 12-year-old? Flouride toothpaste, twice a day or after meals
3. After how many years must your car registration be renewed? In my state, 2
4. What state do you live in? Denial
5. What is the record high temperature for your state on today’s date? Which station?
6. Who wrote the magna carta? You did
7. What types of mushrooms are poisonous? The poisonous ones
8. Who is the current governor of West Virginia? Joseph
9. How many apples grow on the average red delicious tree per year? 1
10. Who invented the emoticon? Al GoreDaasYochid,
“I would word that differently, although this is probably what you meant:
The yeshiva cares about obtaining skills (reading, analysis, etc.) as much as or more than learning that specific sugya.”
That is exactly what I meant, but I don’t see what was problematic with my wording.
DaasYochid,
“Would you say that the shiurim you paticipate in give you a path to independent learning, or would a chavrusa be required for that?”
I think the shiurim provide a path, but it is a painfully slow one. Learning with a chavrusa and a shiur is the best option.
zahavasdad,
“Do we sacrafice the 30% who cannot learn without it or do we hurt the 70% who can”
My understanding is that the yeshiva cares about the process as much as or more than the result. Therefore, if 30% can’t learn without it, the yeshiva should be helping them to learn how to learn without it.
I do not have a yeshiva background, unfortunately, and have experience both using Artscroll independently and learning with a regular Vilna shas at shiurim. Both the Artscroll and the shiurim provide translations, so I don’t see that as the big difference maker.
Pros of Artscroll
1. You can make forward progress independent of a shiur.
2. The elucidation and extensive comments help incredibly with understanding what’s going on.Cons of Artscroll
1. The layout does not encourage proper review – I find that I remember much less from the sugyos I learn with Artscroll alone, and it does not become “mine”, if that makes sense.
2. The translation does not capture the pithy language of the gemara, and I find the latter to be much more engaging.
3. You don’t pick up on the words and phrases that are key to unlocking what’s going on, and can then be applied elsewhere. In other words, Artscroll does not teach you how to learn, so there is no path to becoming less reliant on it.Takes2-2tango,
“MY POINT EXACTLY.
BALEIBATTIM WAS THE NORM FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS ,YET THEY SOMEHOW JNEW HOW TO LEARN.”Some did, but many did not.
“BESIDES, THEE BALLEIBATIM WHO YOU ARE ACCUSING OF NEEDING ARTSCROLL TO LEARN A PIECE OF GEMARA,FOR THE MOST PART ALL LEARNED IN LARGE YEHIVOS,GOT MARRIED AND BECAME BALLEI BATIM.”
Like high school math, unfortunately there are some people who did what they needed to do to “graduate”, and don’t use it too much after that.
The little I know,
Why do you assume that you are automatically the expert in the room, when you have no idea who the other posters are? Your appeal to the vague idea of “studies” holds absolutely no water. And while your faith in scientific rigor makes for a good read, have you conducted a thorough literature review to make sure there aren’t other studies with different results? Is it possible you are overstating the scope of the research? And how can we know that you are interpreting the studies you allude to correctly if you fail to cite them?
The little I know,
“I am declaring that yeshivos, rarely if ever, have responsibility for the crimes committed. If you can prove they do, with policies that are the structure of the yeshiva, you have a case.”
You are forgetting about the possibility of an institution that fails to follow its stated policies.
1,
“What’s the name of the niggun that is sung on Shabbos Auf Ruf, when bringing the chosson to shul?”
Gehennom on the Wabash.
edited
coffee addict,
“Additionally most shuls daven past סזק״ש according to the מג״א
People who are מקפיד daven hashkama”Or they make sure to say krias shema before the zman, like at the table on Friday night after dark.
Gadolhadorah,
“How does that solve the Magid’s problem??”
Easy. He’s upset that his wife is “turning up” too early in the davening, so I proposed a solution where she does not have to alter her arrival time, but now arrives at the proper time he thinks a woman should arrive.
“He is obviously dealing with a complex “relationship” issues”
I solved the problem he presented to the CR. Let’s not go out looking for more problems.
Switch to a hashkoma davening so that when she turns up, they’re already halfway through the leining.
DaasYochid,
“And the potential for a man to be matched decreases with age more slowly than for a woman.
Again, that doesn’t change the numbers, it just makes it even worse because it increases the age gap, and makes it even harder for women in a certain age group.”
I’d say it the other way around. The age gap due to straight population growth makes the cultural marriageability gap even worse.
DaasYochid,
“Blockquotes look horrible no matter how you use them.
Right, Avram in MD?”
They looked fine back in the days when we had subtitles…
DaasYochid,
“Why wouldn’t it be? What would be a bigger factor?”
I don’t know, I think there are multiple potential factors, and I’d be glad to list some I think may be at play, with the caveat that it’s speculative. I think a subset of available men (full-time learners) are more prized culturally, so a larger population of women are trying to be matched with a smaller population of men from the outset. And the potential for a man to be matched decreases with age more slowly than for a woman.
The population growth rates being thrown around here, however, are inflated by an order of magnitude, and it is highly unlikely that a 2-3 year marriage age gap within this growth regime alone is the primary reason men get significantly more shidduch opportunities than women.
Neville ChaimBerlin,
“You have a room of 50 boys and 60 girls. How do they all get married without 10 single girls leftover?”
“There are more girls in a later generation than there are boys in an earlier one; that’s just fact when you have a growing population. This is what those of you in denial do: to compensate for your embarrassing lack of understanding of basic statistics”
You set up 50 boys and 60 girls as an illustration of the shidduch crisis, and then lectured Syag that she doesn’t understand basic statistics? Lolol. The typical age gap in marriage is not 40 years. Sure an age gap in marriage in an increasing population is one potential factor at play, but I seriously doubt that it is anywhere near the primary driver for the larger number of single women. And to focus exclusively on it causes you to ignore other factors that may be more impactful.
Neville ChaimBerlin,
“CTL had claimed that if someone had read his posts from years of being a CR user, they would see how great and accepting he is of other socio-economic classes.”
I reread his post, and can see how his claims to be “middle class” seem out of touch with what middle class actually means in light of his frequent and casual references to his wealth. And that welcoming increased taxes ignores the fact that such policies can harm others, though, to be fair, I’m guessing he doesn’t favor raising taxes on people with smaller incomes. MDG hit back on those points, but I don’t really see how they insult other people. Can you clarify?
CTLAWYER,
“The OP posed a physical impossibility To vote for a dead non-US citizen who was also a non-member of the Democrat Party in a primary.”
1. While we’re picking nits, it’s the Democratic Party, not Democrat. The latter is typically used as an epithet.
2. I also believe the OP was a troll post, but surely you understand that it was a hypothetical, and thus being literally possible was not really relevant? If you want, interpret the question as, “if a person like Stalin was running in a primary…”Neville ChaimBerlin,
“Notice how I never said the word debate or anything synonymous with it in the quote to which this was replying. I’m not sure how you read that as having anything to do with debates or winning.”
Quite obvious from the entirety of your post. Later in the post you wrote, “arguments in a magical, intellectual way” as an expansion of your point. And debate is certainly a synonym of argument. As far as winning being your perceived goal of conversation, that is evident in your references to discussions being pointless because nobody’s ever convinced. The vast majority of human conversation does not consist of one person trying to convince another of something.
“No more meaningless than applying it to anyone who personally offends you with a different opinion. Real men can take it and don’t beg for censorship whenever they can’t take back what they dish out.”
Not once have I been personally offended by anyone’s opinion in this thread. Nor have I begged for censorship. And I bet that had you rewritten your post minus the personal insults instead of complaining about censorship, you could have had your comebacks to CTLAWYER posted already.
Neville ChaimBerlin,
“By interesting, you mean conversations where both sides end up feeling deep-seated anger, but cover it up in the name of civility as is the custom in the phony world of intellectualism.”
Not every conversation is a debate. And the goal isn’t always to “win.”
“The way you’re looking at this would mean everyone taking a vow of silence for all eternity.”
You don’t seem to be finding me very silent 🙂
“This idea that you can word arguments in this magical, intellectual way that won’t offend anyone and will be healthy for for the world is a total myth that only exists in the upper tier of American society.”
There is way more to human interaction than the extremes of argument and silence. Not every conversation is persuasion-based, and even when attempting to persuade someone, argumentation is not necessarily needed or desirable.
“Most of us (deplorable rednecks who still know how to apply common sense) have gravitated towards the results-based approach like that of Trump (or Ocasio-Cortez on the inverse)”
My Southern bonafides may well exceed yours.
“and away from the pointless approach of Jeb Bush types that seems to be rooted in getting 90-year-olds to think, “hmm, he talks nice… What a nice young man he is…”
Jeb Bush got two terms as Florida governor, and his brother two terms as President. Not shabby for a pointless approach.
“You had to risk offending me just now by responding to my last comment, right? I could have gotten really upset at you for disagreeing and accusing me of a aveira, right? Does that mean you did an issur? No. There is not document or scripture that guarantees a human right to “not be offended.” That would cripple mankind.”
That’s a cop-out that would render the entire concept of onas devarim meaningless. We are not responsible for each and every feeling that someone may theoretically have in response to any statement, but it is forbidden by the Torah to say something intentionally designed or reasonably certain to hurt the feelings of another Jew.
Neville ChaimBerlin,
“It’s much more fun and even productive to just hurt the feeling of everyone you don’t like.”
Sorry, onas devarim is forbidden by the Torah. We can’t pick and choose which mitzvos to follow because we think it’s fun or productive. I don’t care one whit what people may think is obsolete in whatever era. We are Jews, and as the people of Hashem we have a higher standard to uphold. Our Torah does not change with the times. And CTLAWYER doing it first does not make it ok.
As for your point about political discourse, if you admittedly have never tried a more civil tone, then you cannot assert whether respectful dialog is effective or not. I have relatives on both extremes of the political spectrum, and have had very interesting conversations with them all.
Neville ChaimBerlin,
“CTL immediately responded to this thread by attacking the OP’s intelligence and then calling groups of the country rednecks. He was not censored.”
Maskim that CTLAWYER’s insult in his response to the OP and his later denigration of rural America were not acceptable things to say. Perhaps those posts should have been edited or deleted by the moderators. While they were not censored, they were censured by other posters 🙂