Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
“I asked a rov for a sefer on driving, he answered that making people read available books on marriages as well as general STEM and English education is needed.”
Time for a new rov.
ujm,
“That’s why I always drive in the left lane.”
Love it!
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Given the gemora precedent, anyone heard this taught in their yeshiva? Or BY? Any written materials that schools could use?”
There’s an empty slot on the bookshelf in the beis medrash just waiting for your sefer on this! You can call it (and maybe it’ll become your new CR username) נהג בזהירות
I appreciate the intention of the letter – if someone as a child bullied or hurt another child, he should apologize or try to make amends if it would be helpful to the victim. And we have many stories about how a small act of kindness can have life-changing impacts for others, so too a small act of cruelty. But this story of olam haemes does not sit well with me. Perhaps it would make sense if we’re talking about a kid older than bar mitzva. But the letter specified elementary school! Is a child fully responsible for their conduct prior to bar mitzva? I think the story would be more correct if it were the parents who did nothing after hearing that their child was bullying others who were called to account in the olam haemes.
Menachem Shmei,
“Till I realized I need phone for directions.”
Then put your shoe back there, or something else that you’d realize immediately that you’re missing.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Or get into habit of talking to the kid and have them on your mind, so you’ll notice that he is not answering.”
This won’t work for a small infant or a child who has fallen asleep in his carseat.
Regarding phone distraction – that’s a parallel issue. Good drivers presumably are not engrossed in their phones or sefarim while driving. Kids R”L were left in cars before the invention of the cell phone. The danger is going through a routine and forgetting or not realizing the child is back there. My stomach hurts just thinking about it. It can happen to anyone.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Put your phone into the crib – so you don’t forget it and also not check the phone while driving.”
This is such a good suggestion. For those without a smartphone that they check frequently, use something else that you’d immediately notice not having outside the vehicle, like your shoe.
Never think that this R”L only happens to neglectful parents. It can happen to anyone. We all have to rush sometimes, have routines that we auto-pilot into, and have a lot on our minds.
For those running a gan, preschool, or playgroup, if a child is absent unexpectedly and without prior notice from the parents, call the parents immediately to check on the absence.
none2.0,
“Your so slow. It’s like talking to a wall.”
You wrote above that we can judge a tree by its fruits. That’s from a passage in the Christian gospels, the book of Matthew 7:15-20 to be precise. Maybe that’s revealing of your background. But whatever. After yet another round of personal attacks instead of any cogent response to some pretty basic questions, I must say I’m not too impressed with the fruit you’re revealing.
If you ran a school and told the kids “curfew is at 10” and expect the kids to know a priori what a curfew is, and punish a kid severely for being in the hallway after 10 for any reason, you’d have a nightmare school. Obviously you’ve never worked with kids. Or people. Thank G-d that His Torah, and the world He created isn’t anything like you think it is.
I see no reason to continue this debate.
none2.0,
“First of all gathering wood is working lol “
Who says? Maybe I’m a plumber, and my heart tells me that “do not work” means I should not do my plumbing job on the Sabbath, and instead focus on my family. And my wife is cold, and I could go gather up some sticks to warm up the fireplace for her (with an already kindled fire)? I’m not making this interpretation up, I’ve met people who think this is what “work” means in relation to the Sabbath. Yet the guy was executed for it. Sure after he’s dead now we know that gathering sticks is work, but too bad nobody told him! Seems unfair, doesn’t it?
You keep telling me to “use my brain” to interpret these commandments, but you are not doing that. Every time I press a question you fall back onto an interpretation that’s from Torah she’baal peh. Or you just insult me.
none2.0,
“shabbas was very simple. “Do not work on Sabbath, make Sabbath holy” that gives “you” room to decide how your going to make G-d proud.”
Tell that to the guy who was stoned to death for gathering wood on the Sabbath (see the 15th perek of Bamidbar, we just read the Shabbos before last in parshas Shelach). It wasn’t those evil controlling people who decided to stone him either. They found him and asked Hashem what to do, and He commanded them to stone him! Now tell me where in the super easy to understand English/Hebrew Bible that everyone can read and interpret for themselves did it say to not gather wood on the Sabbath?? Don’t you think that would have been an important little detail to include?
none2.0,
“More is not expected of you actually.”
If someone were to challenge me to state what the polar opposite of Torah was in one sentence, I think this would be it.
“Aka do not add laws that were not there.”
Open up the megillas Esther and see what Mordechai and Esther did at the end. They sent letters out telling the Jews to do mishloach manos, matanos le’evyonim, and a mishte on Purim from then on. And we do it to this day. Do you condemn them for that? Do you know better than them?
none2.0,
“why would a loving G-d create you with a very specific design and then tell you to overcome your nature.”
This is a great question! These are my thoughts. Hashem wants us to be aware of Him and to bind ourselves to Him. To help us with this, He created us with needs. Someone with needs must turn to a provider. He also created us with an ability to experience pleasure. I believe this shows that He loves us – He wants us to feel pleasure! I can experience that myself when I give my children chocolate or a new toy. Oh to see the delight in their eyes! I sit with them sometimes when they eat breakfast. They hum while they eat! This is also why zoos have feeding stations where guests can give food to the animals. Something happened though very early on in the history of mankind. Adam Harishon, the first man, ate from the tree of knowledge of good and bad. This caused changes in us from that very specific design Hashem originally created. We now judge for ourselves good and bad, and naturally we equate pleasure with good, and lack of pleasure bad. But that’s not how we were originally designed, and because of that we are out of sync with our true spiritual and even physical needs.
“Imagine I told you to overcome your nature and do everything alone. The stress and the hardship your life will take will be beyond what you were designed to handle.”
Imagine I told you to walk on your nose. This whole point is irrelevant, because Yiddishkeit doesn’t demand you to be alone, or whatever other awful things you think up. That’s why you’re left scrambling for weird things to make your points. The truth is, Yiddishkeit provides a kosher way to experience almost every inclination.
none2.0,
“Can you delay eating? For a time maybe. But then your body breaks down. Can you delay sleeping for a time but then your body breaks down.”
Most people can absolutely delay eating and sleeping. 6 fast days and the occasional late night like the seder nights or tikkun leil Shavuos are not harmful and do not cause the body to break down. In fact, many dieticians now say that occasional fasting is good for the body. If, during a fast, someone begins to feel ill, he takes measures to protect his body as truly needed. Some people have constitutions or circumstances that are different, and fasting for them is dangerous. They are not required to fast, and in some cases a rabbi will have to adjure them to eat on the fast day because they don’t want to break the fast. Also, the Chofetz Chaim would walk into his beis medrash at night and send the yeshiva students trying to pry their eyes open to learn all night to bed. So I don’t know what belief system you’re talking about that doesn’t take bodily needs into account. It’s certainly not mine.
“Controlling and delaying your natural inclinations which is actually your human needs has moral consequences.”
You are confusing an inclination with a need. They are not the same thing. Some people have an inclination to become physically violent towards anyone who they feel has insulted them. Shouldn’t this inclination be suppressed, even if the person gets a stomachache over it? There’s moral consequences to not controlling that inclination! And some people have needs with no accompanying inclination. Many people cannot clearly perceive their thirst, and can end up dangerously dehydrated before they realize something is wrong. My belief system does not require me to ignore needs, but does expect me to resist bad inclinations. And better for your soul than resisting bad inclinations all the time is to improve yourself so those inclinations wane!
“Being too stringent with self actually over time breaks down the mind and spirit and separated a person from self.”
Moreso does a lack of stringency.
“I understand why your saying beast and using that horrid word to make it as if being human and having needs makes a person a mindster.”
Not at all. I know dogs that are affectionate with their owners, and that are gentle and happy creatures overall. Others are aggressive and bite. The thing is that dogs can only live by their inclinations, and they cannot change their inclinations. They are trained by directing their inclinations – you command them to “leave it” when they see a treat on the table, and then reward them with a better treat. You cannot explain to a dog that it’s morally wrong to take food from the table that is not theirs. And that’s ok for a dog. A true monster is a human being who only lives by and never changes his inclinations, because he can bring to bear his vast human intellect to further his bad inclinations. Dogs, for example, cannot take vengeance.
“it’s filled with discipline separates a person from self.”
Discipline doesn’t separate a person from self, it brings him closer to a better self.
“But to constantly shut down yourself for another’s opinion or way of thinking”
That’s the thing. It’s not another’s opinion or way of thinking. It’s mine. I have made it my own.
“Imagine your whole life being on a diet. Sounds like he ll to me”
That’s why it’s better to develop a healthy and consistent lifestyle overall rather than gorge on whatever sugary or fried things look and taste so good in the moment until you can’t see your feet under your belly, and then desperately try to slim down on an unsustainable and unpleasant diet. A healthy lifestyle allows for occasional sugary foods or fried foods. But in recognition that they are treats, not staples, and in recognition that even with treats you can choose healthier. Yiddishkeit is a lot like this – a healthy and consistent lifestyle for your neshama that binds you to Hashem.
none2.0,
“Being a “sheep” euphemism means not having a brain and being dumb.”
Aha, so you’re intending to insult?
Baaa.
none2.0,
“I mean the way you twist yourself to fit into your belief system. Use your brains”
Twist myself? Rather, say improve myself. Your philosophy that everything one needs to interpret life and Hashem is already in your brain is the philosophy of a beast. A beast’s only way to relate to Hashem and the world is through its instincts and desires. A beast remains a beast, and cannot become more than that. More is expected of a human being. We can delay gratification. We can sacrifice for a greater good. And we can change our mindset and come to love what we once hated, and hate what we once loved. So choose well. And keep calling me a sheep, but remember also אָדָ֣ם אַתֶּ֑ם. Not a חַיָּֽה־רָעָ֖ה.
Baaa.
none2.0,
“and don’t lie that your happy to be a sheep. Your just pandering to what you were told to say your whole life now you can use the “slogan” and feel like you fit in your doing the “right” thing. None in the right mind wants to be called a sheep.”
To quote Tolkien: “That word comes too oft and easy from your lips … I do not lie.” And you know nothing about my life or what I was told or taught. Call me a sheep! יְהֹוָ֥ה רֹ֜עִ֗י לֹ֣א אֶחְסָֽר
Baaa.
I am very happy to be called a sheep. וְאַתֵּ֥ן צֹאנִ֛י צֹ֥אן מַרְעִיתִ֖י אָדָ֣ם אַתֶּ֑ם אֲנִי֙ אֱלֹ֣הֵיכֶ֔ם נְאֻ֖ם אֲדֹנָ֥י יֱהֹוִֽה
Baaa.
none2.0,
“ופרע את ראש האישה can roughly translate to loosen or uncover her [*hair]. You need an authority figure to tell you how your allowed to translate something….sounds like manipulation to me “
ראש means head.
none2.0,
“You have no idea how liberal your way of thinking sounds. Let’s use for example liberal speak. They use the words “red herring” they say there’s a “specific way” to interpret certain things that if someone is doing XYZ even if it makes perfect sense they are just using a straw man…..you don’t see the pattern your using”
This whole section makes no sense. What are you trying to say? Just a bunch or random stuff you think will bother me?
“What about reading the plain text and understanding it in context.”
That’s the very first step of learning. And based on your prior posts, you’re not capable of it.
“I’m ok with everyone’s interactions but I have my own too.”
You mean interpretations, and no, you are obviously not ok with everyone’s. Otherwise you wouldn’t be trying to insult me by saying I can’t think for myself, or whatever weird stuff you wrote above.
“And how do we know who’s is the truth. Not which authority tells me “how” to interpret things but whatever is of sound mind. Does that make sense. Thanks”
Yeah it makes sense inasmuch as I know what you’re trying to say, but it is stupid. You wrote somewhere that you’re not advocating for moral relativism, but your contention here is the textbook definition of moral relativism.
none2.0,
“The rules come from tradition blah blah. Do you think for yourself.”
Yup.
“And who made those rules to apply to everyone.”
Hashem your G-d and the King of the Universe, who happens to not be what you see in the mirror.
none2.0,
“You seem to be using the pasuk any way you want.”
Absolutely not! I only interpret it that way because we have a tradition brought down and codified in the gemara. I’m not going to deviate from that.
“It was an _action_ that was done by sotah to embarras the woman.”
And where in the pasuk does it say it was done davka to embarrass the woman? That’s not a plain reading either, it’s an interpretation. And where does this interpretation come from? The same place mine did! So the interesting question is why do you take chazal’s interpretation for the reason her hair is uncovered as an axiom, but reject everything else chazal say about it?
“I can also chop up any sentence and take one word or one letter and make it fit to whatever belief system I have. Talk about making anything serve your own purposes lol.”
No you can’t. The rules for interpretation come from our tradition and have strict parameters. For example, a gezeira shava is a way to derive a halacha for one case based on similar or identical words used in a separate, seemingly unrelated case. But we can’t just make up our own gezeira shava. It’s only valid if it has a mesora.
none2.0,
“Regardless, that not the point a true biblical life is one filled with gratitude towards G-d not doctrine it’s about living _with_ G-d not rituals.”
So how do you account for the fact that the Bible is filled to the brim with very specific instructions on how to do a bunch of rituals, and consequences for not doing them? Was G-d just kidding about all of that stuff, and He really just wants us to sit around the fireside singing kumbaya and deciding for ourselves what’s right and wrong? You know there’s people out there who believe what Hamas does is morally right, and that they have the “truth”.
“It’s about true prayer and a real relationship one where _you_ matter as much as the whole one where self sacrifice is not really necessary.”
This is meaningless mumbo jumbo. How do you purport to know what true prayer is, or what a real relationship with Hashem is? Is what feels good your guide? Let’s not turn selfishness and hedonism into religious virtues.
“filled with morality, love, wisdom. And truth.”
What is morality? And what is truth?
none2.0,
“You know in the Torah shebichaav it says, choose _wise_ and _understanding_ men and _then_ it says don’t move from the right or to the left and deviate from what they say. It never said choose men learned in halacha it never said choose men who only speak of law.”
You accused me of inserting an agenda into the pesukum (!?) while you are just going by straight meaning, but this is not so. You’re mixing and matching the pesukim and leaving things out in order to distort the meaning. Choosing wise and understanding men comes from the first perek of sefer Devarim, where Moshe Rabbeinu is recounting for b’nei Yisroel the decision to appoint leaders of thousands, hundreds, fifties, and tens to help him bear the burden of the people in the midbar. Not deviating to the right or left of the judgement comes from the 17th perek of sefer Devarim, and the men there are identified as, “the kohanim, the levi’im and the judge who will be in those days”, and furthermore it says, “according to the LAW they instruct you..” Oh yeah, and it also says, “the man who acts willfully, not obeying the kohen who stands there to serve Hashem your God, or to the judge, that man shall die, and you shall abolish evil from Israel. And all the people shall listen and fear, and they shall no longer act willfully.”
Sounds a bit more like wtsp’s “do or die”, and if the judgements are based on the law, you probably want those judges to be conversant in the law.
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t run to the Torah and throw pesukim and fake pshat at me to support your position while accusing me of misinterpreting things, but then disparage it as just a “book” when it doesn’t suit your purposes. That’s not intellectually honest.
none2.0,
“That’s litterly to wake up and speak of G-ds kindness to appreciate the morning and be thankful and greatul at the rising sun something we all feel and can feel inherently in our being touching upon something that we are greatul for, rising to a new day and thanking G-d out of greatulness and thankfulness a a new day. And appreciating and Praising G-d for his safety at night.”
Pretty good description of pesukei d’zimra, shacharis, and maariv you give here! Where I disagree is the notion that we feel it inherently. Do you think if we wake up one morning and are just not feeling so grateful… do you think we’re therefore exempt from speaking of G-d’s kindness to appreciate the morning and be thankful and grateful at the rising sun? Or would it perhaps be a healthy thing for us to express our gratitude anyway and work on our perspective?
“And also you don’t stay at a job you hate. You work at a job you can handle or you change your circumstances according to alignment cuz we may not like to work but if we _hate_ working and it’s a horrible job then that’s not healthy. The point is you do adjust your life according to how much you can handle”
These are decisions that require a good perspective to make. Many people dump a job (or chas veshalom a spouse) because they think they’re not happy enough, but then find that things are even worse on the other side. If you hate your job, you owe it to yourself to really think things through before taking action. Why do you hate the job? Is the work itself odious? Personal problems with the boss or a co-worker? Maybe you don’t think the work you are doing contributes anything meaningful to the world? Sometimes these things can be ameliorated, sometimes not. Sometimes its your own perspective that’s a problem. I love the work I do, some tasks more than others, but we’re plagued with terrible IT support. Many of my colleagues get really bent out of shape that their work is made harder on some days, or that we lost time fixing things unnecessarily. But hey, so what if we had to spend the day reprocessing data because of a bad patch? I’m getting paid, and I can calmly explain the situation to management, and it’s their job, not mine, to ensure that IT meltdowns don’t impact our mission.
“doesnt mean I can’t admire it for what it is and still choose my way. Everytime you see a painting do you force yourself to love it. You appreciate it for what it is and move on to do your own thing. This is real life.”
The last pasuk in the book of Shoftim says, “In those days there was no king in Israel, every man did what was right in his own eyes.” Do you think that’s meant in a good way, or a bad way? Also, it’s very interesting to me how people who argue against observance tend to use the phrase “real life” or “real world”, as if frum Jews aren’t living a real life in the real world. It’s the olam hasheker that likes to call itself the real world.
“You may show up for every yid as a whole to daven because that’s your responsibility but your a human being and I’m sure that’s not your intention Everytime you show up to daven”
No, of course not. I wish it were, and it’s a worthy goal to work towards. But you can’t even begin to work towards that goal if you don’t show up at all.
“and you think G-d can’t hold up the world without you doing exactly what you just said.”
Umm what? That isn’t even remotely close to anything I think, or have ever written. G-d has absolutely no need for us whatsoever.
“alao responsibility like that can sometimes be heavy and you can’t expect yourself to always do everything for everyone else all of the time. Your an individual.”
Yeah, responsibility can be heavy. Whatever. Gotta grow up and put on your big boy pants sometimes. What’s tragic is that you seem to frame individuality as mainly limitations. I’m an individual so I can’t … Healthy individuality means bringing something uniquely you to the world. It’s bogus to say I’m advocating for doing everything for everyone else all of the time and losing myself in the process. It’s necessary take time to “be” as you say, or to get off my feet, read something, walk with my wife, get a babysitter, order pizza, or whatever. But “being” as you say cannot interfere with my obligations. I can’t say to my kids, “sorry little fellas, this is a ME day today, so you’re on your own for food and anything else you need.” That’s not being. It’s being bad.
“I may be able to go to sleep every night only for one hour, I can train myself and adapt myself to that but that will impact my entire life in a negative manner. We can adapt to a lot of things doesn’t mean we will be utilizing our energies properly and in a healthy fashion. If you don’t take proper care of your body if you push yourself further then your capabilities you will ultimately harm yourself .
“I may be able to go to sleep every night only for one hour, I can train myself and adapt myself to that but that will impact my entire life in a negative manner. We can adapt to a lot of things doesn’t mean we will be utilizing our energies properly and in a healthy fashion. If you don’t take proper care of your body if you push yourself further then your capabilities you will ultimately harm yourself .”
I never advocated anyone push themselves beyond endurance. In fact, most kiruv experts advocate for a gradual adoption of mitzvos, not an all or nothing approach. In drashos to ba’al habatim rebbeim say to increase our learning. Try to add in 10 minutes a day, or even just 5. Start going to a regular shiur. They don’t say, “quit your job and get thee into kollel now!” The key is consistency, avoiding complacency, and looking for ways to improve. I think you are using the beyond endurance argument as an excuse to avoid things you just don’t want to do.
none2.0,
“For example. Prayer. Is something very personal but we have made it into a ritual. I mean prayer is the thing you use when you need help. It’s not just some things you mumbled daily. Someone else’s words, someone else’s meaning. G-D Listens to everything you say and also, words have power.”
A few thoughts about this.
1. The prayers our sages set forth in the siddur are works of absolute spiritual genius. I add my own personal supplications to my tefillos, and my words are awkward and clumsy in comparison.
2. When davening shacharis, mincha, and maariv, I am not there just as me myself. I am there as a part of klal Yisroel, and klal Yisroel has a specific way of doing things. So showing up and sticking with the program is part of my responsibilities to my people. When I fail to do so, klal Yisroel is diminished, chas veshalom. What you call conformist I call responsibility.
3. Hashem made human beings just about the most adaptable creatures on Earth. This is so we could spread out and fill the entire world. The first 40 degree morning in October feels so chilly, but a 40 degree morning in March feels warm. The miller doesn’t wake up to the grinding millstones, because he ceases to even notice the noise after a while. When walking into the home on Friday night, the wonderful smells of the Shabbos food greet us, but after a few minutes inside, we cannot even detect the smells anymore. This adaptability is a strength, but also a perilous weakness. Because when we get used to things, we stop thinking about them. We go into autopilot. We forget to be grateful. Our tefillos become rote, and we don’t focus on the meaning. Part of our work as Jews is to counter this tendency. And we can’t counter it if we just give up and leave, saying it’s not for us.
none2.0,
“Imagine if David hamelech got up for shachris and was a conformist you think he would have had the connection he has to G-d to write tehilim.”
He certainly did get up for shacharis! Look what he wrote in his tehillim: לְהַגִּ֣יד בַּבֹּ֣קֶר חַסְדֶּ֑ךָ וֶֽ֜אֱמוּנָֽתְךָ֗ בַּלֵּילֽוֹת!
“Please listen to G-d He created us and knows how he designed his creation and how much you truly _can_ handle”
Yes, and he gave us a really handy Owner’s manual for how to operate and maintain humans, particularly Jewish humans. That’s called the Torah.
“Maybe avram maybe that’s not your tafkid maybe the reason you need to be bribed to to learn is the same way you need to be bribed to go to school everyone hates school. And learning maybe it’s not something you enjoy. Maybe find something more in line with _your_ truth to focus on.”
I’ll be blunt. This is just straight up hedonism cloaked in feely goody spiritual mumbo jumbo. What I want when my alarm clock goes off in the morning is to sleep in more, so that must be right. I’ll just tell my boss that my personal truth was I couldn’t handle getting up this morning. I love fried foods, cookies, and ice cream, so Hashem must want me to eat them. I want to hang around and rest and not be bothered, that’s my tafkid! My pajamas are way more comfortable than my clothes, so maybe G-d wants me to wear them all day. If I used what I “want” to do in the moment as my life guide, I’ll end up as a 700lb blob living alone with no purpose in life, no self respect, and no happiness. At least there’d be french fries and cookie dough! Well, until my money runs out. My neshama loves to learn Torah, it’s my body that sometimes has to be motivated. And sometimes it’s not my body, but a lack of perspective, or a lack of organization that holds me back.
You’re telling me to know myself and my needs and wants, yadda yadda. I want to be a good Jew. I want to be an eved Hashem. I want to be a ben Torah. That’s my true self. And I don’t intrinsically know how to do those things – I need help! And what I want in the moment is not any kind of guide. Not feeling like it in the morning? That’s not my true self, that’s me not getting enough sleep the night before. Getting angry at the guy who cut me off in traffic, and letting that negativity be an undercurrent for the rest of the morning? That’s not my true self, that’s a lack of perspective. Getting to shacharis when the tzibbur is in shemoneh esrei and grumbling about my kids losing their shoes, refusing to get dressed, etc? That’s a lack of organization. You need to ask yourself who’s driving the bus.
none2.0,
“Why did G-d give you your own mind.”
So I could recognize Him.
“Your own heart.”
So I could love Him, cleave to Him, and be grateful to Him.
“And your own life and corn circumstances”
So I could serve Him, have faith in Him, and cry out to Him.
“If G-d wanted you to think by a book and not by your own thoughts, why did he give you an independent free thinking brain “
I am a father and husband. That gives me some responsibilities and obligations, whether or not I feel like it in the moment. Didn’t sleep well last night? Too bad, I still have to get up, help with breakfast, and go to work, then help with dinner and bedtime, and be sweet to everyone. That’s not being a bee in a hive, that’s being a man. I am also a Jew. And that gives me responsibilities and obligations too. Mitzvos, learning, connecting to Hashem. That’s being a Jew, not a sheep.
Gadolhadorah,
“Actually, one of the most frequently cited (secular) studies on triggering factors was performed by your neighbors at Johns Hopkins (with NIH funding) examining how womens’ dress and appearence triggered disruptive emotional reactions in men”
Would you be able to provide sufficient keywords to find this study in a Web search? Absence of something from a study tells us nothing except that it wasn’t studied, and it sounds like this study was specifically focused on provocative dress by secular standards. Outside of the walls of Johns Hopkins, a nearly 60 billion dollar hairdressing industry in the US, and movies and shows replete with the awkward ignored girl becomes beautiful and attractive after a hair makeover trope (at least up until I became frum and stopped watching) tells me otherwise.
Ellie7,
“The vibe of the whole letter is placing men’s issues squarely on women’s shoulders. You’re turning women into the bad guy and framing men as poor, innocent bystanders.”
I can understand why that’s angering. I personally didn’t get that vibe at all from the letter. While the focus was on something that women are doing (the attractive sheitals), the letter writer did include:
“This is not an easy conversation. It demands humility from men and self-awareness from women.
Men must admit how easily visual stimuli can impact them. Women must acknowledge the inherent power of their presence and attractiveness, even without enhancements.”
Later the writer wonders if the fancy sheitals are due to pressure from husbands to be a “trophy”, or due to their lack of attentiveness, etc. Given this, I don’t think he was intending to frame women as evil and men as good. Rather, where I think he errs is that he assumes women are wearing expensive, fancy sheitals to attract male attention. I don’t think that is typically the case.
none2.0,
“Please. It’s not a “commandment” it was taken from a pasuk. There are a lot of actual commandments like do not steal do not kill. It says _nowhere_ thou shall cover your hair. please.”
And the fact that there’s a pasuk it can be derived from actually makes it stronger than any of the other laws of tznius, for which there are no direct pesukim. There are a lot of actual commandments like lighting Shabbos candles, shechita, melachos forbidden on Shabbos, etc. that don’t have direct pesukim or are derived from pesukim similarly to head covering. Do you disregard those as well? Would it be accurate to presume that you are a karaite? There’s no such thing as a Torah shebichsav without a sheba’al peh. Groups that deny the oral Torah passed down to us by our sages such as karaites just make up their own to fit their own purposes.
none2.0,
“if you have an actual comeback to refute what I said share it.”
Yeah I do. First of all, the Jewish community is brimming with generosity, and I have a lot of experience on the receiving end of that, and I try to be on the giving end of it too. So to second what HaLeiVi wrote, how can you besmirch our community in that way? Regarding not fitting into a box and feeling unaccepted – I’m sorry you feel that way; however, you are raging against Jews as a whole, been rude to other posters, including calling them “evil”, and claimed that posters who disagree with you truly agree deep in their hearts, which demonstrates an intolerance of disagreement despite your accusations that others can’t tolerate disagreement. And on top of all of that you don’t seem to accept Torah sheba’al peh as legitimate, which is going to be problematic in a forum designed for people who believe that as a given.
“Halacha requires you to live beyond your human nature which actually can be very hard to balance when faced with real life scenarios.”
Judaism wants us to grow, which yes means going beyond what our current nature is. Right now I am incapable of running two miles non-stop without walking some of the time. If someone were to demand that I do so, I’d fail, or become quite sick in the attempt and probably vomit or faint. But am I by nature a creature incapable of running two miles? Are the biology books that tell us that humans are built for long distance running incorrect? Of course not! I can indeed run two miles. I would need to train myself every day. Get up in the morning and jog. And jog again the next day a little longer. And a little longer the day after that. And perhaps eat better and sleep better, and stretch out my muscles. Then one day I would be able to run those two miles. That’s what halacha is. It’s a training program to get our body and neshama working together properly to allow us to do what we’ve been placed here to do, which is to be constantly aware of Hashem and to serve Him with a full heart, mind, and body. Is getting up early to jog (or daven shacharis with a minyan) sometimes really hard and not what I want to do? Sure thing! That comes from a lack of perspective. If I maintain awareness that I want to be able to run those two miles, or to come close to Hashem, I can overcome, and maybe even appreciate the opportunity I have.
“If people were to be truly honest with themselves I’m sure they will tell you how certain things they do is very difficult. Yes of course you will say difficult doesn’t mean it’s wrong but I believe, based off my experiences with real life.”
That’s a cop out. You surely can think of things that are difficult to do but are yet correct to do. If you dent somebody’s car in a parking lot and nobody saw, it might be very difficult for some people to leave a note. But it’s the right thing to do. This is not about difficulty, it’s more about the fact that you do not accept Judaism as valid. And that makes me wonder why you’re motivated to post here.
“That G-d who created us knows how much we can handle”
Yup, and when I ponder that deeply, it is very, very scary. Because in truth I can handle a lot more than I act like I can.
none2.0,
“There was no commandment no offense. Lol it wasnt said outright.”
I’m afraid you do not understand how Judaism works. There is indeed a commandment for married women to cover their hair. It’s brought down in Torah sheba’al peh and codified in halacha.
“Second reality isn’t going to change people look great in their wigs and woman want to look good that’s the point.”
You also don’t seem to understand how modesty works.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“We should encourage more men to get courage and approach women indicating specific clothing items that arouse their concerns. I am sure the ladies were not aware of the effects and will appreciate the feedback.”
This is not fair. Nowhere in the letter did the author advocate confronting women about anything. If you don’t like his opinions, then state why you disagree. But bringing up tznius police is just a red herring.
Gadolhadorah,
“The article fails to address a reality that has been studied and documented in both a secular and religious context … However, the large percentage of men cite … as the most relevant factors”
Oooh, normally I’ve just stated my uninformed opinions. I didn’t know we could just wrap them in phrases like “studied and documented” to give an appearance of greater authority. I’m going to do that from now on!
Studies show that large numbers of people misunderstand frum culture. A large, double-blind randomized study of communities that dress modestly showed that members of those communities frequently had greater sensitivities when compared to communities where modest dress was uncommon.
commonsaychel,
“Impressive to watch the Troller chaburah at work”
Hey it’s a nice break from the Zionist/anti-Zionist Chabad/anti-Chabad duopoly, isn’t it? This is some classic CR-type stuff right here.
DaasYochid,
“The moral thing to do is to follow the Halacha.”
🔥🔥🔥
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I can imagine someone hesitating to interrupt his seudah if the calls is likely to be a mistake. It could be just for that particular apartment if they make a mistake a couple of times, or it could be for a community where there are many older people who tend to press wrong buttons.”
I would think hatzolah members have times when they are “on call” and times when they are not. When they are “on call” they have awareness that they could be pulled away at any time, and can deal with that emotionally. And I continue to wonder how big of an issue false alarms really is for hatzolah. Are they against LifeAlert bracelets or similar technology?
none2.0,
“The question is what’s more important to you. Shabbas or inconveniencing someone. You need to ask yourself what choice can you live with, breaking shabbas and living with that. Or inconveniencing someone.”
This is the fast track to destroying a society’s morality. As the last posuk in Shoftim says (not meaning a good thing): בַּיָּמִ֣ים הָהֵ֔ם אֵ֥ין מֶ֖לֶךְ בְּיִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל אִ֛ישׁ הַיָּשָׁ֥ר בְּעֵינָ֖יו יַעֲשֶֹֽה
Halacha must be our guide. Without it we can tie ourselves into complete pretzels and think that evil is good and good is evil.
ubiquitin,
“What do people think will happen this situation will happen agian, and he’ll look up the shailah on ywn?”
No, but someone else with the situation may Google it and get this page in the search results. Granted the Venn diagram of someone concerned with how to handle a call to hatzolah on Shabbos and someone who knows to take his shailos to a qualified posek have a ton of overlap, but 1) some shailos by their nature come with a strong taiva to land a certain way – see how quickly “morality” was brought into this discussion, and 2) I think it’s good practice in a public forum when a specific case is discussed to remind people that these discussions are theoretical/for learning and that it’s proper to “AYLOR”.
HaLeiVi,
“People have no issue discussing all types of issues just for fun. Why is it that whenever someone brings up a Torah type of discussion there is such pushback? Are you really afraid that the OP or visitors will turn here when it applies to them practically? Have fun, and discuss your Svaros with whatever sources you can conjure.”
If you’re responding to my first post – I never said not to discuss it, I even said it was a great topic. However, the OP said he wanted to hear from a posek, so I pointed out that the CR is not really the best place to achieve that. Do you disagree? As far as people coming to the CR for a psak on their own situation? Oh yes I believe that is a possibility. Have you heard of the phrase “ask Rabbi Google”?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“You are possibly diverting hatzola from a possible another emergency and risking lives as hatzola is driving fast to get to you. Also, you are risking that next time they’ll be hesitant to respond to your address or to a similar event. Furthermore, you are discouraging people to volunteer for hatzola. Enough reasons?”
As with my post about whether the policy could be to respond to any call made, even if the caller subsequently said the services were not needed, these reasons are speculative and potentially invalid. I find the contention that false calls discourage people from volunteering to be the most dubious. As far as driving fast – hatzolah’s response model is based more on their responders being in close physical proximity to the callers than blazing down boulevards from a centralized station with sirens screaming (though there’s some of that too). Also, even if you did call right back, you’re likely to not stop at least some of the response from happening – they’re gearing up and going before the call even ends! Finally, asserting that hatzolah would hesitate to respond to a call suggests an unprofessionalism in their operations that is unwarranted.
מִ֚י זֶ֨ה | מַחְשִׁ֖יךְ עֵצָ֥ה בְמִלִּ֗ין בְּֽלִי־דָֽעַת
Ex-CTLawyer,
“You [SQUARE_ROOT] are violating Federal copyright law when you constantly post direct passages from published and copyrighted works such as the Artscroll books you mentioned in this thread.”
He’s posting short quotations, fully cited, for the purposes of commentary and criticism. He’s not reproducing portions of the works in full or profiting from the usage. It’s highly unlikely that his usage would impact sales of the biography or other sources he’s bringing; in fact, his use may encourage sales. Wouldn’t this be a textbook example of fair use?
This is a great topic for discussion! However, while CR posts may provide interesting information or other points to consider with your shaila, I would not expect to hear from a posek on the CR, and for actual guidance you really should seek out a rav that you know to be reliable.
That said, once not on Shabbos, one of my kids dialed 9-1-1 from our landline phone while joking with a sibling, and then hung up after realizing the call had connected. We got a call back from emergency services. I explained that the call was made accidentally and everything was ok, but the operator told me that since a call to 9-1-1 was made from our address, they had to send someone out. So two nice police officers came to our door and got an apology from my child. I’m not sure if hatzola has a similar policy, but in our case, calling back would have done nothing to change the response. Another possibility is that a responder might already be on the way before you call back.
Chaim87,
“Is it appropriate to use the term “Holocaust Survivor” to refer to a child hidden in a Budapest swiss safe house ? Meanwhile, my grandparents went through ghenim in Auschwitz , Buchenwald and Bergen Belsen which is unfathomable (Oct 7 hostages are the closest to that).”
Where do we draw the line on someone’s experience before they get a “title”? Of what benefit to anyone is gatekeeping the term Holocaust Survivor?
“But calling them survivors just cheapens the horrific part of it.”
No it doesn’t. Calling someone who lost just one finger an amputee doesn’t “cheapen” the experience of someone who lost both legs.
5TResident,
“In the words of Rambam, I am perplexed. Once again I find myself in a crisis of faith. We are told that there is more Torah being learned, more tzedaka being given and more chesed being done today than at any time in Jewish history. Yet Hashem is still permitting the anti-Semites to plot against us, to fight us physically in the streets of Brooklyn, France and everywhere in between and curse us. We are told that Hashem will watch over us and protect us from our enemies. Where is Hashem’s answer to all that is being done to us now?”
Where is Hashem’s answer? He told us exactly what was going to happen to us. We lein it quietly and quickly in parshas Ki Savo. We hear it also in parshas Haazinu. We are in golus, R”L. Our Beis Hamikdash was burned to the ground, and we were exiled from our land. Antisemitism is a part of that. To me, the absolute irrationality of antisemitism really points to Hashem’s absolute control. We just said at our seders, not just one as risen up to annihilate us, in every generation they rise up to annihilate us. Why does our existence make evil people so angry? It’s hard, it’s horrible. We don’t understand it. But Hashem will avenge us. הַרְנִ֤ינוּ גוֹיִם֙ עַמּ֔וֹ כִּ֥י דַם־עֲבָדָ֖יו יִקּ֑וֹם וְנָקָם֙ יָשִׁ֣יב לְצָרָ֔יו וְכִפֶּ֥ר אַדְמָת֖וֹ עַמּֽוֹ . And we will be returned to our land and our Beis Hamikdash.
Re: learning and chessed – we shouldn’t focus on comparing quantity. Are we each taking full advantage of the unique opportunities we have in this generation to learn? I’ll confess that my beis medrash has comfortable chairs. It has air conditioning in the summer, and heat in the winter. It has a coffee room stocked with those K-cup things, teas, instant taster’s choice chemical coffee powder for ujm, sugar, fake poison sugar for those who want cancer instead of diabetes, plastic spoons, and a fridge with whole milk, half and half, artificial creamers for those who had steak for breakfast, and sometimes kiddush leftovers. We get bribed to come learn with bagel breakfasts, tuna salad, and cholent on Thursday nights. And you know what? Despite all of that, I’m not in there anywhere near as much as I should be. I’m really not 🙁
One more thought on today’s unique eruption of antisemitism. I grew up not frum. The “Judaism” of my childhood was essentially liberal politics dunked into matzo ball soup. The social justice issue du joir was the focus of the weekly sermon. That trend has only accelerated, and I can only watch with open mouthed astonishment as these Jews are now getting banished from these liberal secular spaces. There’s yad Hashem in that. ס֚וּרוּ ס֙וּרוּ֙ צְא֣וּ מִשָּׁ֔ם
Chaim87,
“So now you are moving the conversion from internet devices to smartphones to teens.”
Sorry, I wasn’t meaning to move the conversation – I had been asking both you and amom for examples of where smartphones or Web browsers were a necessity, and the example of communication and teens popped into my head. I’m glad you agree that they are not a necessity for teens, but the teens would surely disagree with you, and then they’d become you in this conversation and you would become me. And I’d love to see how you’d answer them.
On the subject of shifting the conversation – I have never maintained that a family should have no devices. I was surprised by your contention that a family “needs” multiple devices with Web browsers (that would need filtering), and I happily argued about whether devices are a necessity or a convenience for many posts, because having a proper perspective about this technology is important in decision making for how to deal with its risks and danger. The downside to this rabbit trail is that you and amom have pigeonholed my position into something that it’s not.
Here’s my question to you: let’s drop for now the question of whether having access to a Web browser is a necessity or not. I’ll spot you a Web browser. Maybe your doctor ordered you to play Wordle every day. Fine. Now, as part of your argument against TAG, you contended that filtering is prohibitively expensive because families need multiple devices with Web browsers. Why? Why not have a desktop or laptop computer to access the Web if needed, and then if you really need to tap around town rather than having a flip phone, get smartphones from a company like KosherCell, which come with no browser at all (hence no need for costly aftermarket filtering), but have dozens to hundreds of apps for ride sharing, public transit, banking, email, payments, etc. that satisfy all of your examples above about how people use phones in 2025? Then you’d only have a shaila of filtering one one device. Can you really tell me that having 8 devices in a household with Web browsers is truly a necessity in 2025? Or is it a convenience? Amom is trying to argue your side, but note that she doesn’t have a smartphone at all.
Note that there is a difference between devices that connect to the Internet and devices that supply an ability to browse the Web. My dumbphone accesses the Internet… to get OTA software and firmware updates and to get weather and maps updates for navigation. But it needs no costly aftermarket filtering because it lacks a Web browser.
“Now you bring danger in to the picture. That doesn’t change the facts though.”
Oh but it does. Because realizing there’s danger means one can act to reduce or eliminate the danger. And to be able to do that effectively, one has to take an honest assessment of what a need vs a convenience is.
amom,
“Yes, it is. You are part of the exception of people who find the internet unnecessary. Kol Hakavod!”
You’re picturing a caricature of me based on my position. I use multiple laptops for work, as well as a desktop, and I connect to supercomputers. I also do not own a smartphone (I used to, but got rid of it). I don’t work for TAG either, nor am I affiliated with them in any way.
Chaim87,
You’re not a teenager, so you’ve not hit me with the strongest “necessity” of the smartphone that’s foremost on their minds: communication.
“All my friends have phones – they are all in a group chat together and I’m missing out on so much!” So you cave and buy them a phone. “All my friends are on WhatsApp/Instagram/whatever! Can I have that app please, I’m still left out!” or in some circles, “My friends hate me because I make the chat have green bubbles, pls pls pls can I have an iPhone?!?!” Cave. Then suddenly your daughter is chatting with boys, or your son is chatting with girls. Or your kid never has respite from the bullies at school; they can torment her from the moment she wakes up until the moment she falls asleep. And despite your “unlimited data plan” you get throttled 15 days into the cycle.
And it’s really sad, because in communities with widespread smartphone use, kids without one really are left out socially. But I have yet to see one kid given a smartphone who didn’t take damage from it. Everyone is dumping their TAG horror stories here, so here’s mine. I’ve spoken to many parents who regret getting their teens smartphones.
The communities you deride as being “Amish” or in a “bubble” have perhaps done the wisest and nicest thing possible for their children – created a space for them to interact and socialize with each other without smartphones.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“you are aware that cars kill more people than internet, right?”
You are aware that Jews have a neshama, right?
“Do most people think twice before taking a ride to a store?”
I do think twice before taking a car, and I daven for safety when I or my wife are driving. But this is a false analogy fallacy (sorry Chaim87). The danger of a smartphone is not the same as the danger of driving a car!
“Internet is still news for some communities, but you can be sure that in one more generation, it will be like cars”
I’m personally davening for a backlash. Then maybe we’ll get technology that is less destructive.
“Do I need to be careful looking for Torah lectures? for historical information? stock prices? kids doing SAT?”
Let’s say you have a hankering to learn how to speak Filipino in your spare time. So you download Duolingo. After all, it’s the self-claimed “world’s best way to learn a language”. It collects your name, email address, device ID, user ID, 3rd party advertising data, phone number, diagnostic data, and it even wants your contacts list! So you start a lesson, and it gives you happy jingle sound effects and a smiley bird when you get answers right. Fine. Who doesn’t want to feel good about learning something? Then it plays a video ad. And another. And then it starts notifying you about keeping daily “streaks” alive. And it plays more ad videos. But now it’s Shabbos, so you turn your phone off and put it away. And after Shabbos you see a new email: YOU MADE DUOLINGO SAD! This “innocent” language app hacks your brain, using dopamine rewards and guilt to manipulate you into spending more time on the app. Why? They don’t get paid if you can actually speak Filipino at the end of the day. They get paid if your eyeballs are in front of those ad videos. And they get paid for all of that personal data they collected about you (oh yeah and they had a data breach recently, whoops, sorry!).
The Torah lectures are good, and sites like Torah Anytime ask for donations, and you should donate to them. But yeah, you gotta be careful looking for historical information, stock prices, kids doing SAT, or anything else. Because your phone is not serving you that content out of the goodness of its heart. It wants something in return. Your eyes. Your time. Your personal data. Your web of personal contacts. And it will push more and more content in front of you to get that engagement. Even if you’re not tempted initially towards inappropriate content or bitul zman, your phone’s apps are working overtime to get you tempted.