Forum Replies Created
Not sure how oomis’s experience is different from the OP; seems exactly the same, but at least one place gets points from you! 🙂
It’s probably not a good idea to knock other people’s jokes. Probably best to comment when we like them, and go on to the next when we don’t.
I’m a little leery of responding, because so far two threads in which I posted today were closed. So I’ll tread gingerly! 🙂
Perhaps I tend to see the goodness in people, but despite the mercenary considerations, and despite your very well stated logic, I still think it is likely the owner let them stay out of kindness, especially since they explained their predicament.
You do make sense, you really do. I just see people differently, and if evidence (I don’t mean courtroom admissible) justifies it, I usually attribute kind actions to good motives.
I’m still not understanding, even though you did try (in three paragraphs yet :). I don’t think the Yated was advocating that people should go out and kill someone. So for my question, whether or not we want others to kill, etc, why is it smug to call something a Gezeira or to say we don’t understand something? Why is it wrong to call something a Gezeria or state that we don’t understand? In what way were the Yated’s words incorrect, or “smug”? Thank you.
I really want to know this: why is it smug to call something a Gezeirah and say that we don’t understand? Your tone indicates that there is something wrong with calling something in the Torah a Gezeirah, or something wrong with not understanding. Can you explain what you meant?
I think we’ll have to agree to disagree, Jewess. One nice thing about a forum is the diversity, and this is just further manifestation of such :).
“Imagine this happening 50 years ago…the significance of what is happening as society changes and history leads to the ultimate Geulah”
I took some time off from work, and it was worth it just for this! Thanks for the food for thought.
Hey, just wanted to put in my less than 2 cents here, because I referenced this thread-topic in another thread recently:
Although cantorial music is not my cup of tea, I have family members who do appreciate it in some way, so I appreciate the fact that it can be appreciated!
I agree with you, rivkib
Music is so powerful, and can even be transformative in a spiritual way.
I guess the same way one can flirt with an unknown individual on the phone or via email. Not too difficult.
I really don’t call it flirting here, though, as flirting is deliberate, and this didn’t seem so.
You mean someone might be presenting as one gender but is really another? That’s a little creepy…
Mod, the inappropriate interaction (I don’t want to call it flirting) took place before your active modding time. Mostly, it took place in the time that CR action was going on till the wee hours of the morning.
The CR is a different place than before your active modding time (I say active, because for all I know, you could have been involved in YW since its inception 🙂
Regardless of personal sentiment, YW has been extremely careful about this in recent months, and I assume posters have as well. If someone hasn’t seen something before, and no difference now, everyone is happy.
For those of us who noticed “something”, especially in the early days, we are happy too.
What a wonderful thing when everyone is happy!
Nevertheless, I am assuming that this owner did this because he is a mentch, and not for mercenary reasons. If I were that owner, I could see myself doing the same out of caring for their efforts, and I would think the owner did that for the reason noted.
oomis, some of us thought otherwise, and all are free to think how they do. In any case, there has been more than a marked improvement, closer to a complete turn-around, and I am impressed.
Kol Hakovod to everyone who has been more careful on this issue! It is certainly an inspiration to me to better on this issue myself!
“It’s kind of hypocritical
to sit here doing something you claim is problematic while actually doing so.”
I try not to interact here in a way that is not tznius, so I don’t have a problem posting on this site. may make mistakes sometimes, and this thread was a good reminder for me.
NO ONE said posting in the YW CR is “problematic. Some posters called attention to THE WAY some dialogue was going in some threads.
It’s not “eloquent” to tell someone to stop posting; it’s simply rude. If someone doesn’t like a thread, that “someone” should be the one to stop posting on that thread. For a teensy example, if you don’t like the idea that a thread was dedicated to improving the tzius here, why did you continue reading, let alone post? Just wondering. I don’t have anything to add to the cantorial thread; it’s not my cup of tea, so I don’t post. If this thread is not your cup of tea…
I need to add that recently, and I don’t know if it is related to this thread or not, there has been a real turn-around in the tznius department, and there was not a single time in recent weeks or even months that I have been startled at the boy-girl banter here.
YW, I admire your constant efforts to improve this site- it has always been terrific, and keeps getting better!
Beautiful story. Thank you for sharing it.
Why does that worry you? Unpleasant thought, yes, but what is the worry specifically about?
“The tune usually used for “Maoz Tzur” is a German tune used by none other than Martin Luther HaRasha for Christian hymns”
I believe you, but that really ruined something for me. No, don’t feel bad that you told me, but that was really and unpleasant tidbit for me to read…
“So just what *is* “Jewish” music as opposed to “goyish” music?”
I’ve given this thought over the years. I *think* that we aren’t permitted to use tunes originally employed in places of Avodah Zarah or have other unclean origins, although I don’t know the parameters. For the rest of it, here is how I differentiate, for lack of better answers:
If the music makes the average listener move in an unbecoming, non-Tznius way, I categorize the music/song as “non-Jewish”, regardless of lyrics. If it moves one to dance with Tznius body movements, be inspired, or even if it is just “blah”, with Jewish lyrics/sung by Jews, I term them broadly as Jewish. I don’t need to feel personally inspired to accept the “Jewish” labeling for a song, but the red lines of unbecoming, non-Tznius body movements are my clear divider.
I was waiting for someone to point that out- I should have know you’ll pull through! 🙂 Perhaps Obama is just craving some snack? 🙂
classical or cantorial- depends on your taste.
Thanks for the laugh :).
I wish I had some advice for you…
You’re right, MM. Bubbeleh and other such terms have no place in the YWCR. I understand that you wish to leave it at that- you were not able to answer, and as I’ve stated before, that’s OK. You don’t have to have all the answers, and I’m sure you realize that. I don’t have all the answers either. As I’ve said before, most of us don’t take hadracha from a blog, so after a couple of attempts (or more), it’s OK for me to say, I guess he’s not going to be able to answer this, and for you to say, I guess I can’t answer this one.
I really don’t know why I am responding to this non-dialogue, but Mods, if you want to delete this because you are totally yawning from the empty back and forth, I totally empathize and would do the same :).
That’s…disgusting. Sorry to be so frank. I’m probably closer to the age of your grandmother than to you. You can’t know that, so you can’t be blamed for that, but I’m disgusted at the use of such terminology for even the very young.
Regarding your “answer”, you stated the Gemorah in three different ways. Not once did you answer the questions of myself, mazca, starwolf, tzippi, and haifagirl (who is your partner in “polygamy pushing”, so I’d think you’d give her a bit more consideration…).
However, it’s ok. Really. Happy blogging.
MM- You thought it was a cop out? And here I was thinking that I’d better give up waiting for an answer. No, I still don’t know what “hitching” means, but something tells me I’m better off not knowing these words…
Did you mean you copped out from giving us an answer, and I copped out in return from increasing my repertoire of slang words? I suppose so.
I wish I knew more slang, MM. Or perhaps it’s a case of my ignorance is bliss? Whatever it means, I’m on other topics now, and I’ll leave it up to our Rabbanim and Torah leaders to guide us on such serious inyanim.
See you on other threads!
“and about topics they know nothing about”
jphone, best line ever :).
we turn to the next interesting thread- we as either in royal we or if anyone would like me to speak on their behalf (no charge) :).
So age-gap part of the problem, and close in age marriages addresses that component of the problem. Sounds good. What other problems do you see, and what suggestions do you have for addressing those other problems at THEIR roots (instead of, or at least in strong conjunction with, addressing a byproduct of “too many girls”)?
We all do enjoy the give-and-take here, and no not to take anything too seriously… But since you are not able to supply an answer to the obvious question, don’t feel bad. We’re not taking the information here as “hadracha” or Torah true guidance; it’s just an outlet for us, and once we see we won’t be getting an answer, we turn to the next interesting thread.
You’re still not answering anyone’s question…Oh well, I guess participants here have access to Rabbanim, and can get true Torah answers the right way. Blog Torah is a lot of fun, but not not very bountifull in the value department :).
“The root cause is we have too many girls and not enough boys of the proper age. The “root cause” is because each succeding generation is larger and is having a lot of children. Perhaps we should have people stop having children for a while until things settle down? I don’t think that is a very practical solution.”
If I’m reading this correctly, this means you feel age-gap is the problem. Otherwise, why would having more children be a problem? So…if you feel age-gap is the problem, why aren’t you putting at least equal energy (pushing for 20 years) to advocate for AZ’s position; marriage within a closer age-range? This would significantly alleviate age-gap issues (as the number of girls being born in any time-range is not greater than the number of baby boys born in that time), and you would be addressing root cause, instead of byproduct of cause.
Actually, MM, I was being Dan L’kaf Zechus. I’m sorry that you don’t seem to understand my question or the concepts presented, I’m sure there’s a good reason for it, if it’s not age.
You haven’t exactly clarified my first “error”, so how can I be making “another error”. Just semantics, don’t mind me…
Yes, women need Torah. Your response is not a response; is simply presents the Gemorah again, which most of us know. In what way did your last comment address any of my questinos?
I don’t think the moderators want me to copy and paste my question above- they have more than enough to read. So I will post just one teensy example again- the more interesting one: What if The woman is a ba’al Teshuva and her husband/children aren’t and he/they refuse to learn Torah. Can this woman earn Olam Haba by learning the parts of Torah that are appropriate for a woman to learn; by giving tzedaka to help pay tuition for the poor child of someone else; by keeping Shabbos carefully; be refraining from speaking Lashon Hara; by making meals for invalids; by saying Brachos with lots of Kavana; by dressing with Tznius; by greeting her neighbors with a smile…enough pixels.
So…Do you know the difference between “only gets Olam Haba if…” and “gets Olam Haba by…”?
“Oh, the sweet irony of these two comments!”
I thought it was pretty funny too. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
That doesn’t answer the questions I posed to you. Not sure if it’s about self-esteem, though…Anyways,I don’t think I will be getting answers, so I’ll give it a rest.
MM, I most certainly have been following this interesting conversation carefully. It’s been great reading, particularly the literal tendencies that are most interesting to read…
Here’s cantoresq’s revised question again: “MM based on your understanding of the passage you quoted, can women attain a share of olam habah if neither their husbands or children ever learn any Torah?”
Here’s your response: “cantoresq, based on my understanding of the passage I quoted and on the limited description you provided of the women you refer to, I don’t see anything they’ve done to merit Olam Haboah.”
Here are some possibilities for your perusal:
The woman’s husband doesn’t learn Torah because she doesn’t have a husband yet.
The woman’s children don’t learn Torah because she doesn’t have children yet.
The woman’s husband is not able to learn because of reasons beyond his or her control(can you think of some reasons?).
The woman’s children are not able to learn because of reason’s beyond their or her control.
The woman’s children are infants and are not yet learning Torah.
The woman is a ba’al Teshuva and her husband/children aren’t and he/they refuse to learn Torah.
Can you think of some more?
Do you know what exclusive terminology means?
Do you know the difference between “only gets Olam Haba if…” and “gets Olam Haba by…”?
I hope you have been enjoying… I gave you a front row seat :).
That’s much better. Incidentally, it was I who pointed out that the “coming home from Bais Hamedrash” applies to working shiur goers and the like (kovea itim), not just-a-guy. I’m sure he is satisfied, though, with the new revision. Glad that’s resolved.
I must be missing something here. A woman has no chiyuv to marry. The Gemarah you referenced did not include any terminology indicating that waiting for husband etc is the *exclusive* path to olam habah- how you extrapolate from that that “I don’t see anything they’ve done to merit Olam Haboah” is beyond puzzling. Did you realize what you were saying?
“Bemused,Based upon your above remarks, you are questioning the validity of the age-gap argument presented by AZ and NASI. That is certainly your prerogative. In that case, why haven’t you vocalized your above concerns all this time AZ was presenting his case? Why did these above concerns of yours first surface with the polygamy proposal?”
I don’t know if it is a decoding issue, or a reading comprehension issue, but you seem to be having difficulty understanding a few words of pretty basic English. Not once, but about three times, I stated that I have no idea about the “shidduch crisis” issue causes, and have no insight to make a comment on it, let alone a determination. Shall I say it a few more times? I’m finally understanding the true value of copy and paste…
I don’t comment on AZ’s comments because I try very hard (and don’t always succeed) to avoid being a fool. A fool comments on issues he knows nothing about, perhaps because he likes to hear/see his own voice/words. I’m not saying anyone here does that, so please don’t get all offended on me. I’m simply saying that *I* prefer not to foolishly comment on something I know little about. I don’t know why there is a shidduch crisis, so I don’t comment. I admire anyone who tries to help people in shidduchim and otherwise, and that goes for AZ as well as anyone else who helps others, even if they are on the opposite side of the fence regarding age-gap, ie, they don’t agree with age-gap. Once again, are you ready? Here goes: I make *no* comment on age-gap- it is a subject with which I am unfamiliar. Kapisch?
If you cannot answer my question regarding why you are pushing polygamy rather than addressing root cause, I can only assume that a) you don’t understand the concepts to which I refer, perhaps due to a vocabulary issue, conceptual issue or other or b) you have interests in pushing polygamy separate and apart from the “shidduch crisis”, are using the shidduch issue as a vehicle to push your agenda through, at least theoretically, and find the “shidduch issue” a convienent way to deflect questions on why on earth, specifically, are you, haifagirl, and others if there are, “pushing for polygamy”. If you can’t answer this basic question, the “pushy for polygamy” seems pretty silly. “I want societal change in this manner but I can’t explain why” is not very convincing…
Have a good Shabbos.
Are *you* assuming? It either is the case, or it isn’t the case. Before you throw a solution at a problem, you need to know if there is a problem, right? If you want to talk “logical”, uh, determining if there *is* a problem would be a good start…
Regarding your last paragraph, this is exactly what I would like to know. If it “not the only reason”, please share with us the other reasons. And no, polygamy does not address the “root of the problem”, it addresses the outcome of the problem. Think about this carefully, and try to really understand the concept of root cause vs. outcome before your fingers hit the keyboard. I mean this sincerely.
“cantoresq made the reasonable assumption that what MM was saying was that a woman who is waiting for a husband to come home from the Bais Hamidrash is waiting for a full-time learner, ergo, waiting for someone to come home from work won’t warrant a place in the Olam Haboh”
Oy. Reasonable? It’s a wild assumption. Why on earth would cantoresq think that MM believes coming home from the Bais Medrash means full time learning? What shaychus? Do you live in a community in which most observant men are full time learners (because most observant men attend a shiur a couple of times during the week, or have a chavrusah/learn by themselves at designated times)? Even Lakewood doesn’t have such a large ratio of full-time learners to working shiur-goers (at least 25% are working, or so I’m told), such that someone would automatically assume a man coming home from a Bais Hamedrash must be a full-time learner. It’s a v-e-r-y strange assumption.
“Second, you insist that there are scholars and non-scholars who go to the Bais HaMedrash. Why make this distinction? If you have a husband who works and then learns after work, call him a scholar? He’s engaged in scholarship isn’t he? If he was also a part-time plumber, would you say, how dare you call him a plumber, he’s only plumbing when he’s not learning.”
Uh, it’s about semantics, not feelings. Scholar has a few definitions. According to Random House Dictionary, scholar is defined as follows:
1. a learned or erudite person, esp. one who has profound knowledge of a particular subject.
2. a student; pupil.
3. a student who has been awarded a scholarship.
Many wonderful and observant men don’t consider themselves learned or erudite, and being learned and erudite is not a prerequisite to being dedicated to a shiur or learning seder. The Torah is open to all, and every Jew has the right and privilege to learn Torah, regardless of erudition.
The second definition might apply, if the term is used conventionally to apply to men who go to a shiur or have a set learning time. I haven’t heard it used that way; feel free to disagree though.
Cantoresq’s comment was a mistake, you seem to be willfully misunderstanding my comments, and all’s well that ends well.
Have a good Shabbos.
“Why should the “age gap” issue only be addressed by close in age marriages (which as you admitted too is a serious endeavor) when it can be addressed as well (and likely even more efficiently) with polygamy?”
MM, I didn’t say “age-gap” should be addressed at all- I actually said that I have no insight into the matter to even state an opinion on what is the root cause of the “shidduch crisis”! You must have read this; I stated this quite clearly.
My question was and is related to the matter of addressing outcome versus root cause. I would think determining and addressing root cause would be the first line of defense for an ongoing campaign of “twenty years”. Polygamy addresses sad outcome of “too few girls”, if indeed you feel that there are “too few girls”. If you believe so (like I said, I personally have no knowledge in the area), why aren’t you addressing the cause, and remediating the cause, as your primary “program for change”. That is how logical people endeavor to solve problems.
Therefore, I suspect that some individuals may be “pushing for polygamy” because they support polygamy, regardless of the “shiduch crisis” status. I am curious if that is indeed the case, and why.
If I’m still not clear, I won’t try again. Perhaps haifagirl understands the question.
Here is some clarification for you:
MM stated: “The Gemorah asks “How do women merit Olam Haboh?”And the only method the Gemorah lists is “By sending their children off to the Bais Hamedrash, and by waiting for their husbands to come home from the Bais Hamedrash.”
Ok. We know that. Most of us have heard that at some point.
cantoresq then queried of MM: “So only women who married scholars have a ticket to heaven”? (approximation- his comment had been subsequently deleted)
My obvious question: What does “waiting for their husbands to come home from the Bais Hamedrash have to do with “scholar”? Many women wait for their “non-scholar” husbands to come home from the Bais Hamedrash, and are proud of their “non-scholar” husbands for making the time to learn Torah paramount, even after a hard day’s work. Cantoresq’s question was therefore offensive, in his implication that “waiting for husband to come home from the Bais Hamedrash” can only apply to a “woman who has married a scholar”.
Hope this clears things up.
Parenthetically, cantoresq, not every “scholar” in in Bais Medrash all day, and not every individual in Bais Medrash every day is an accomplished scholar (yet). The question still remains: Only scholars go to Bais Medrash for a study session? How strange, and how offensive a concept.
“The problem I saw was there were a lot of single girls, and not so many single boys. It didn’t take a rocket scientist to figure when you have 20 hamburgers and only 10 buns, you make double burgers.”
What do you think is the cause for the problem you are seeing? Why would you be pushing for so long for such a dramatic change instead of looking for and addressing the root cause of the “problem”? Isn’t that the first line of defense?
If it’s “age-gap”, attempts at solutions are being made, if it’s “unrealistic demands”, more education and societal change is needed, etc. I have no particular insight into the matter of root cause, and therefore cannot suggest a specific remediation. I still would like to know why you are advocating for a “solution” instead of addressing the problem’s roots. Unless, of course, you are a proponent of polygamy itself, and are using the “shidduch crisis” to spur momentum for your project. Perhaps you believe in discouraging close relationships between spouses, for whatever reason?
I’m offended by your question. Are you implying that only “scholars” go to the Bais Hamedrash? Have you never encountered the countless individuals who go to learn Torah after work, who have a chavrusah after work, who go to a shiur after work?
You must have hit the send button before thinking…
$300 a month? That’s an awful lot of cleaning help.
MM: Pushing for marriage within 2 years is a serious endeavor, correct. Those who propose this have explaining their reasons. (I am not familiar enough with the age-gap concept to have an opinion on this.)
Haifagirl has not explained her reasoning on “pushing for polygamy for 20 years”. If this is being pushed by any/someone, I would like to know the reasons why.
“Because I was told there was a problem. I saw for myself that the problem did exist.”
That’s what I would like to know. What problem have you seen? After all, “pushing for polygamy” is a pretty serious endeavor, and I would like to know why we should be looking at this. Thanks.